Creation vs. Evolution Apologetics

[Tyrel]

(thesuperjag;26040)
You are, because thou speakest lies and preaching them. And I am not God, nor do I want to be worshipped as a god.And It is indeed a physical image because how do I explain Satan (who is an fallen angel) who is an image of God, who looks like a MAN without the FLESH body. And God came in the FLESH which is a MAN's body.Jag

.. right.

 

[Jordan]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;26043)
(thesuperjag;26040)
You are, because thou speakest lies and preaching them. And I am not God, nor do I want to be worshipped as a god.And It is indeed a physical image because how do I explain Satan (who is an fallen angel) who is an image of God, who looks like a MAN without the FLESH body. And God came in the FLESH which is a MAN's body.Jag

.. right.Have you not read in Genesis 6? that these fallen angels (which looks like and is a MAN) mated with the daughters of men (flesh women) before?Jag

 

[Tyrel]

(thesuperjag;26049)
Have you not read in Genesis 6? that these fallen angels (which looks like and is a MAN) mated with the daughters of men (flesh women) before?Jag
I know about the Nephilim. Actually, let me ask you a question. One of the problems I used to have when I didn't understand Genesis properly, was how to understand that the Nephilim were created then, but are referred to as existing later on in the Torah.. after the Flood... If Noah and his family were Nephilim, then how could any differentiation be made? If they weren't on the boat, how did those people, described as being just abnormally large, survive a worldwide flood intended by God to wash away abominations in creation?I'm wholly curious as to how you think this dilemma is solved.However, let me point out that the image of Satan includes wings.. and various other things.. which we do not have.. The Angels are depicted as being human in narratives. The imagery, even of the Seraphim, is assumed to be human in basic form. This is simply imagery. The "Image of God" is not Physical. This is why Jesus was at once the perfect Image of the Invisible God, and also had nothing in his appearance which would lead us to esteem him a king, or even a great man.

 

[For Life]

The Image of God, is not physical. This is clear beyond doubt.
Is that because of your argument for birth defects? Who is this clear beyond a doubt to? The same people who believe in evolution beyond a doubt? I think the word image has to imply physical otherwise the bible would have stated our spirit was made in the image of God. We cannot see the spirit so how would telling us we were made in His image make sense other than the physical? I really think you tend to complicate things almost beyond comprehension.

 

[Tyrel]

(For Life;26063)
Is that because of your argument for birth defects? Who is this clear beyond a doubt to? The same people who believe in evolution beyond a doubt? I think the word image has to imply physical otherwise the bible would have stated our spirit was made in the image of God. We cannot see the spirit so how would telling us we were made in His image make sense other than the physical? I really think you tend to complicate things almost beyond comprehension.
For Life.. I might say level the claim that you are overly simplistic.Still, I have shown throughout the thread why this has to be so. For you to think the Image of God is physical, seems to me to avoid reason. It's not simply birth defects and what not. However, if our form is divine, in the physical, then tell me, what about our particular form, or at least the model for our form, is divine? Does God have an Image, or a body? No. He became man, as the Word of God took on flesh. However, the flesh of Messiah was not what made him the perfect image of the invisible. God is not male or female. He has no physical form. He is immaterial.His image, which we have, is something which has nothing to do with the physical.

 

[For Life]

His image, which we have, is something which has nothing to do with the physical.
Well I agreed with you right up to the second comma. I would also have to argue that our spirit and God's spirit are so completely divergent that if we were to see them as an image they would look nothing alike.
However, if our form is divine, in the physical, then tell me, what about our particular form, or at least the model for our form, is divine?
I don't know what about our form is divine. All I do know is that the bible states we were created in God's image. Also about being simplistic I don't view that as a negative. I think the bible was made to be understood by everyone, even (especially) the simple minded.

 

[Christina]

(Pariah;26028)
Umm... not to throw a wrench into the woodworks, but I'll just make this point.To Jag and kriss and Denver! If kinds can only reproduce after its own kind, doesn't that throw the whole serpent seed teaching out the window? But I digress. Sorry.For the ongoing discussion, I would like to point out that man had ceated a hybrid through gene splicing for a liger, a lion and a tiger for which the result is sterile. Cannot reproduce even with a male and female liger.This one supposedly from just trying to mix a lion with a tiger. Notice the same result which will be. Sterilization. Probably close enough in kind to produce one in kind but not enough to function as another kind of that kind in the "cat" family. http://gothamist.com/2003/07/18/lions_and_...igers_oh_my.phpSo how does macro-evolution make it if micro-evolution has limitations in variations? If the evolutionary tree is true, would we not be able to reproduce with where we came from? The answer is "no" because that is not where we came from.AND do note... if blacks, orientals, and whites were all different kinds... they would not be able to reproduce, huh? Hmm........... does the possibility of no other races becoming more credible now as we are all related to Adam and Eve and thus Noah and His family ... or..? But I digress again... sort of. Just agreeing with thesuperjag, kriss, and Denver that kinds can only reproduce after its own kind.
Very good Pariah I was hoping someone would see this Im impressed you are 100% right that is why God calls this an ambombination flesh and spirit are not to mix it why God sent the flood this was against his laws of Nature kind after Kind its why their off spring were Giants and deformed God hates this mixing it breaks his Natrual laws and he will not stand for it. Same as evoultion God has Laws and anything that breaks those laws is an abomination.

 

[Jordan]

(Kriss;26076)
(Pariah;26028)
Umm... not to throw a wrench into the woodworks, but I'll just make this point.To Jag and kriss and Denver!(thesuperjag;26004)
Would you like to show me scriptures please where we are made from other kinds, instead of our own kind? God say "after his kind" or "after their kind".Jag
(Kriss;25996)
CAN ANYONESHOW ME ONE VERSE ONE WORD THAT SAYS UNTIL IT TURNS INTO ANOTHER KIND????????????????????NO BECAUSE IT IS NOT IN THE WORD NOR GODS WAY HE CREATED EVERYTHING PERFECT AFTER ITS OWN KIND AND SAID IT IS GOODNOT BUT IT WILL GET BETTER ..........AND THAT IS GODS WORD ON IT NO EVOLUTION EVERYTHING AFTER ITS KIND MADE PERFECT BY THE LORD GOD FROM DAY IT WAS CREATED
If kinds can only reproduce after its own kind, doesn't that throw the whole serpent seed teaching out the window? But I digress. Sorry.For the ongoing discussion, I would like to point out that man had ceated a hybrid through gene splicing for a liger, a lion and a tiger for which the result is sterile. Cannot reproduce even with a male and female liger.This one supposedly from just trying to mix a lion with a tiger. Notice the same result which will be. Sterilization. Probably close enough in kind to produce one in kind but not enough to function as another kind of that kind in the "cat" family.[url="http://gothamist.com/2003/07/18/lion...gers_oh_my.php]http://gothamist.com/2003/07/18/lion...gers_oh_my.php[/url]So how does macro-evolution make it if micro-evolution has limitations in variations? If the evolutionary tree is true, would we not be able to reproduce with where we came from? The answer is "no" because that is not where we came from.AND do note... if blacks, orientals, and whites were all different kinds... they would not be able to reproduce, huh? Hmm........... does the possibility of no other races becoming more credible now as we are all related to Adam and Eve and thus Noah and His family ... or..? But I digress again... sort of.Just agreeing with thesuperjag, kriss, and Denver that kinds can only reproduce after its own kind.Very good Pariah I was hoping someone would see this Im impressedyou are 100% right that is why God calls this an ambombination flesh and spirit are not to mix it why God sent the flood this was against his laws of Nature kind after Kind its why their off spring were Giants and deformed God hates this mixing it breaks his Natrual laws and he will not stand for it.Same as evoultion God has Laws and anything that breaks those laws is an abomination.Dear PariahI'm glad that you can see it too. It made my heart glad.We are suppose to be reproducing after our kinds. (As each race of men is a different kind. Though they are all flesh)Satan is a fallen angel who is a MAN, but he is not FLESH, but the SPIRIT.Although Cain is Satan's son, that mixing of SPIRIT and FLESH since Eve is FLESH. It is a completely ABOMINATION to God. Hence the reason why Satan is cursed above all cattle and above all beasts (animals and flesh people) (Genesis 3:14) But it still happened happened. And it is so dead wrong. It again happened in Genesis 6. That's a sad truth. The same ABOMINATION to God.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[Tyrel]

Seems Kriss and Superjag are content to ignore my posts respectively.

(For Life;26073)
Well I agreed with you right up to the second comma. I would also have to argue that our spirit and God's spirit are so completely divergent that if we were to see them as an image they would look nothing alike.
Our spirit? There is one Spirit. It returns to God. God gives "spirit" to all things. Animals have spirit. The Spirit returns to God, and the flesh returns to ashes. Only the soul is left. I think you have some deep rooted misunderstandings about Christianity.(For Life;26073)
I don't know what about our form is divine. All I do know is that the bible states we were created in God's image. Also about being simplistic I don't view that as a negative. I think the bible was made to be understood by everyone, even (especially) the simple minded.
I think it's simplistic to take 66 books or more, put them together into a canon, and say that the compilation of them in it's totality was written to be easily understood by all audiences without Jewish Background.. Have you Read Ezekiel, Revelation, Daniel, Job, Nehemiah, Zechariah??? These are not written by their respective authors with the intent being that anyone can understand. They address an audience, with a background, and they communicate with them using imagery the audience is already aware of, a message.

 

[Christina]

(Tyrel;26084)
Seems Kriss and Superjag are content to ignore my posts respectively.

Our spirit? There is one Spirit. It returns to God. God gives "spirit" to all things. Animals have spirit. The Spirit returns to God, and the flesh returns to ashes. Only the soul is left. I think you have some deep rooted misunderstandings about Christianity.I think it's simplistic to take 66 books or more, put them together into a canon, and say that the compilation of them in it's totality was written to be easily understood by all audiences without Jewish Background.. Have you Read Ezekiel, Revelation, Daniel, Job, Nehemiah, Zechariah??? These are not written by their respective authors with the intent being that anyone can understand. They address an audience, with a background, and they communicate with them using imagery the audience is already aware of, a message.
Everyone please take notice Tyerl has told us we should not look to the Word of God for he has deemed it incomplete and lacking in knowledge compared to his wisdom. Forget God says he has foretold us All things, All wisdom comes from and through him If this was not so sad it would be hysterically funny TyrelWe must all pray for Tyrel because he is a very confused soul

 

[Pariah]

Hi kriss,
Very good Pariah I was hoping someone would see this Im impressed you are 100% right that is why God calls this an ambombination flesh and spirit are not to mix it why God sent the flood this was against his laws of Nature kind after Kind its why their off spring were Giants and deformed God hates this mixing it breaks his Natrual laws and he will not stand for it. Same as evoultion God has Laws and anything that breaks those laws is an abomination.
Umm... maybe you missed my point of your point to what I was agreeing with..If kinds can only reproduce after its kind, then man can only reproduce after man. So flesh and spirit cannot mix because God has made a decree that kinds can only reproduce after its kind.I was agreeing with you, the superjag, and Denver in opposing Tyrel's opinion that we evolved from other kinds. If so, then we would be able to mate with those that we have evolved from, and we can't because... we didn't evolve from them.I wasn't agreeing to the serpent seed teaching at all. I just don't see how, when you acknowledged those parameters for His creation, no angel, nor fallen angel can alter that parameters for they are not God. God spoke.. and it is so in the terms set out in Creation to be "able" to reproduce.Anway, I was digressing, and sorry you did not understand my original agreement to your post. By the Law of Bio-Genesis, no other kind...like angels which were not created to reproduce .. can mingle with man. As Denver pointed out, there were no female angels, then just because they were given male names does not mean there were male angels because there would be "no need" for the male reproductive parts, now would there? As to Tyrel, there is no way we evolved from another kind for if we did, we would still be able to mate with that kind. And we cannot. Therefore we did not evolve from other kinds.

 

[Pariah]

Hi Jag,
I'm glad that you can see it too. It made my heart glad.We are suppose to be reproducing after our kinds. (As each race of men is a different kind. Though they are all flesh)Satan is a fallen angel who is a MAN, but he is not FLESH, but the SPIRIT.Although Cain is Satan's son, that mixing of SPIRIT and FLESH since Eve is FLESH. It is a completely ABOMINATION to God. Hence the reason why Satan is cursed above all cattle and above all beasts (animals and flesh people) (Genesis 3:14) But it still happened happened. And it is so dead wrong. It again happened in Genesis 6. That's a sad truth. The same ABOMINATION to God.
I am sorry that you did not understand my post either. I thought I was clear. I was just agreeing with the fact that kinds can only mate with its own kind.I would like to remind you according to Jesus' own words that He said.. that which is born of the flesh is flesh. So no other spirit can mingle with the flesh. Only the Creator, God, through the Holy Spirit could conceive the Son in the womb of the virgin Mary. Angels are another kind and as such.. cannot mingle with man as God has decreed the parameters in creation to reproduce after its own kind. Fallen angels cannot defy the laws of Bio-Genesis either.

 

[Pariah]

Tyrel,
I think it's simplistic to take 66 books or more, put them together into a canon, and say that the compilation of them in it's totality was written to be easily understood by all audiences without Jewish Background.. Have you Read Ezekiel, Revelation, Daniel, Job, Nehemiah, Zechariah??? These are not written by their respective authors with the intent being that anyone can understand. They address an audience, with a background, and they communicate with them using imagery the audience is already aware of, a message.
Dinosaurs as far as evolutionists has explained were nowhere around for man to see them. Supposedly long extinct, and yet the behemoth is a testament that man has yet to get it right in science for no creature upon this earth has a tail of a cedar which is a tree. But here we are seeing a living behemoth eating like an ox.Doesn't that message apply to the awareness you speak of and the readers of the Jews understood this, but yet we are unaware of it of our time, because of man's lack of awareness in science to govern our view according to an evolution theory that has yet to be proven but the world holds to it like a torch for the distancing of God being personal in creation.

 

[Christina]

Pariah How many times did Angels appear as men in the Bible? Do they eat (manna)walk ?talk ? We are made in the image of God and the Angels now where do you think the image of male parts comes from?? Is there not a spirit body within each of us?? How did the spirit of God impregnate Mary. If spirit can not mix with flesh how can we survive we are bothIn fact spirit is our true body the flesh is only the clay vessel which holds it this is not evoulution changing from a ape to a human

 

[Tyrel]

(kriss;26088)
Everyone please take notice Tyerl has told us we should not look to the Word of God for he has deemed it incomplete and lacking in knowledge compared to his wisdom. Forget God says he has foretold us All things, All wisdom comes from and through him If this was not so sad it would be hysterically funny TyrelWe must all pray for Tyrel because he is a very confused soul
....

Right.. Where did I say that again?

 

[Christina]

Animals do not have the same spirit bodies as humans this is evident in that when the wolf and lamb lie together in the future they are still animals

 

[For Life]

(Tyrel;26084)
Seems Kriss and Superjag are content to ignore my posts respectively.

Our spirit? There is one Spirit. It returns to God. God gives "spirit" to all things. Animals have spirit. The Spirit returns to God, and the flesh returns to ashes. Only the soul is left. I think you have some deep rooted misunderstandings about Christianity.I think it's simplistic to take 66 books or more, put them together into a canon, and say that the compilation of them in it's totality was written to be easily understood by all audiences without Jewish Background.. Have you Read Ezekiel, Revelation, Daniel, Job, Nehemiah, Zechariah??? These are not written by their respective authors with the intent being that anyone can understand. They address an audience, with a background, and they communicate with them using imagery the audience is already aware of, a message.
I am not claiming to be as well read as you or as well educated. I have read the new testament twice and I am now reading the old testament. I am just starting Nehemiah. I have to admit the old testament is much harder for me to read and understand. I have been reading it for 12 months and I am still not done.The whole point of writing a book is so your audience will understand what you are writing. Only a fool would write a book for the people that was so confusing only a few could understand. Then it truly would be open to interpretation.

 

[Tyrel]

(Pariah;26089)
Hi kriss,As to Tyrel, there is no way we evolved from another kind for if we did, we would still be able to mate with that kind. And we cannot. Therefore we did not evolve from other kinds.
umm... Did you read what I wrote at all?

How do you know we can't? That .. I hesitate to say "Kind".. isn't around anymore. ... wait a minute... do you think we evolved from monkeys?

 

[Pariah]

Hi kriss,
Pariah How many times did Angels appear as men in the Bible? Do they eat (manna)walk ?talk ? We are made in the image of God and the Angels now where do you think the image of male parts comes from?? Is there not a spirit body within each of us?? How did the spirit of God impregnate Mary. If spirit can not mix with flesh how can we survive we are both
But what did they say about the resurrection? That we will be like the angels.. neither marrying nor given in marriage. Sounds like we would not be able to reproduce then either.... cause we shall no longer be flesh. So if angels were created by God.. then why create them to reproduce if they are not going to reproduce? No female angels would declare the less likelihood that angels had male parts for there would be no need for those parts, yes? God wouldn't give a creation something that would never be used. And why would He since they are not created to reproduce? The male organ in terrestrial creation is not paramount in the creation of celestial beings. The fact that there are no female angels goes to show the seperation of the kind in terrestrial creation in that God made them male and female. The celestial creation were not created to reproduce at all thus no need for the male organ either.

 

[Tyrel]

(Pariah;26091)
Tyrel,Dinosaurs as far as evolutionists has explained were nowhere around for man to see them. Supposedly long extinct, and yet the behemoth is a testament that man has yet to get it right in science for no creature upon this earth has a tail of a cedar which is a tree. But here we are seeing a living behemoth eating like an ox.Doesn't that message apply to the awareness you speak of and the readers of the Jews understood this, but yet we are unaware of it of our time, because of man's lack of awareness in science to govern our view according to an evolution theory that has yet to be proven but the world holds to it like a torch for the distancing of God being personal in creation.
Behemoth... you mean the mythical creature that people believed in around the time Job was written? It was used in the book as an allegory.It has no bearing on awareness or science at all. It's a mythical creature. Job wisely incorporates that monstrous image, reminding all that God is still greater than anything which can be imagined. The tail of Cedar.. the impenetrable skin.. these are not "accurate" characteristics of any animal. They are exaggerations to better emphasize the point.I think I've already been through showing Job is a Myth in this thread. I suggest you get a Hebrew copy of it. You don't even have to read it. Just look at the very structure, and then compare it to a psalm. The whole thing is Jewish poetry.However, I suspect your point is being missed here. I'm not sure what you're really trying to get at.. Care to reiterate it?ps - Evolution has in fact been proved. There is no longer any question now. this is what we've been saying.