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Creation vs. Evolution Apologetics

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Codegrazer, Dec 3, 2007.

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  1. Codegrazer

    Codegrazer New Member

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    Some proponents of a literal Creation story interpretation, such as the producers of "Reasonable Doubt: Evolution Versus Modern Microbiology", propose that first challenging the establishments entrenched doctrine of evolution, strictly from the science, is a tactical (or incremental) step towards reaching minds and hearts open only to "scientific" (closed to the supernatural) explanation of life. So proving that evolution isn't all it's cracked up to be THEN opens the way for consideration of a literal Creation.Other proponents of a literal Creation story interpretation, such as Ken Ham at AnswersInGenesis.com, feel that dealing with the science alone can potentially be a distraction from the Truth of Creation and that we must at same time always teach a literal Creation as the answer to evolution, standing on the position that God's Word will not return to Him empty.How do you feel about these two different approaches to the same end?
     
  2. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. 28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.the book of Romans chapter 1 I think this shows the falsehood of evolution and its effects quite well don't You?
     
  3. jkdjr25

    jkdjr25 New Member

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    Science isn't the problem. The problem is when we refuse to think and reason our way through scripture. Its not terribly difficult, through the trifecta of scripture, common sense and logic, to conclude that evolution is false and the literal Genesis creation is the Truth. Its when people demand proof of something that is obvious to anyone willing to think and be led by the Holy Spirit that we run into problems.
     
  4. Dei-Gnostica

    Dei-Gnostica New Member

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    My belief: Evolution occurred..... but only by God's will. Nothing happens that God does not wish for.
     
  5. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    Dei-gnostic have you ever even heard the theory of evolution???? Because without God it sounds ridiculous, and Darwin and all the other big named evolutionist were athiest, this is the theory in short which they came up with. I'm going to ask three intelligent questions in this just so I know your paying attention.Millions of years ago there was nothing and all this nothing turned into to matter and crunched together in a dot about as small as a period on this page. Question number 1- have you ever seen something made from nothing.well anyway all this matter exploded and made the universe. Focusing our attention on earth, earth was all rock and lava and rain. and after millions of years of earth being rained on the lava turned into a living soup.Question number 2- explain how the combination of rain and lava turns into life ( without God).and this living soup with thousands of less then one caelled creatures soon turned into one celled creatures and over million of years the one celled creatures turned into fruit flies and these fruit flys gave birth to catipillars and these cattipillars gace birth to....Horses and the horses gave birth to dogs and the dogs gav ebirth to cats and the cats gave birth to monkeys who gave birth to us and this set up the survival of the fittest and all that.Question number 3- If a dog mates another dog what does it give birth to.A.- a horseB. A cowC. a fruit flyD. a dogthink really hard now.You know what thinking about it I like genesis version a lot better. You know the one with God. Ryan Fitz
     
  6. Dei-Gnostica

    Dei-Gnostica New Member

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    (Letsgofishing;25258)
    Dei-gnostic have you ever even heard the theory of evolution???? Because without God it sounds ridiculous, and Darwin and all the other big named evolutionist were athiest, this is the theory in short which they came up with. I'm going to ask three intelligent questions in this just so I know your paying attention.Millions of years ago there was nothing and all this nothing turned into to matter and crunched together in a dot about as small as a period on this page.
    It was billions of years ago, not millions. And the "dot" was a lot, LOT smaller than the dot on this page. In essence, it was an infinitessimally small point. And yes, this 'point' was created by God.
    Question number 1- have you ever seen something made from nothing.
    Yes it has been observed. Virtual particles, Quantum Mechanics. But again, when and how the virtual particles appear has been ordained/dictated by God billions of years ago right before the Big Bang.
    well anyway all this matter exploded and made the universe. Focusing our attention on earth, earth was all rock and lava and rain. and after millions of years of earth being rained on the lava turned into a living soup.Question number 2- explain how the combination of rain and lava turns into life ( without God).
    It didn't. Got set the Big Bang in motion and then used evolution to bring life to earth. As for Question 2: It wasn't just a combination of rain and lava. It was a combination of water, nitrogen, hydgrogen, carbon, and other organic elements, coupled with electricity in the atmosphere such as lightening storms which created the first amino acids, which evolved into self replicating proteins, which evolved into the first one celled organism. This process took approximately one billion years. And again, all this happened by the will of God.
    and this living soup with thousands of less then one caelled creatures soon turned into one celled creatures and over million of years the one celled creatures turned into fruit flies and these fruit flys gave birth to catipillars and these cattipillars gace birth to....Horses and the horses gave birth to dogs and the dogs gav ebirth to cats and the cats gave birth to monkeys who gave birth to us and this set up the survival of the fittest and all that.
    Again, it's billions of years, not millions. One celled creatures became more and more complex units of multicellular creatures. And actually your transition is incorrect. Over the course of billions of years earth water born creatures formed.... and then some of those creatures made the transition onto land, and then over hundreds of millions of years after, dinosaurs ruled the earth. About 65 million years ago the dinosaurs became extinct due to a comet crash on earth. This gave a chance for early mammals, which were small rodents, to evolve and then form the many creatures right down to this very day. Many long extinct, some still around. Including us.
    Question number 3- If a dog mates another dog what does it give birth to.A.- a horseB. A cowC. a fruit flyD. a dogthink really hard now.You know what thinking about it I like genesis version a lot better. You know the one with God. Ryan Fitz
    I've got a question for you. Why doesn't the polio vaccine work as well as it used to? I personally find the literal genesis to be a metaphorical explanation of God's grace, nothing more. It's not meant to be taken literally because scientifically speaking, it wouldn't have a leg to stand on. But metaphorically speaking it exemplifies God's greatness. God gave us humans a very powerful survival tool: our brains. Our brains has the advantage of analyzing the world around us through science and reason. God didn't give us the answer to the cosmos for a reason. He wants us to think for ourselves and unlock the mysteries of the universe. He wants us to discover this beauty created by Him. Evolution is one such beauty. There are no holes in Evolution. It is a solid self standing theory. But it is an artwork. It is an artwork of the Divine Artist: Our God.
     
  7. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    Hey relax that whole description of evolution was an oversimplified joke.I have nothing against evolution with God. The only problem is most of the proffesors who teach are not christians and even if they are do not credit there findings to God. rather the genetic marvel we all are. the genetic marvel that falls short when it comes to God.Do I believe in evolution. NoDo I have a problem with it. NoBut I do have a problem of the way its being taught which gives the attention to us rather then God.
     
  8. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    oh and about that very simplified joke.I forgot the dinasours. how stupid am I. [​IMG]
     
  9. Dei-Gnostica

    Dei-Gnostica New Member

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    (Letsgofishing;25304)
    Hey relax that whole description of evolution was an oversimplified joke.I have nothing against evolution with God. The only problem is most of the proffesors who teach are not christians and even if they are do not credit there findings to God. rather the genetic marvel we all are. the genetic marvel that falls short when it comes to God.Do I believe in evolution. NoDo I have a problem with it. NoBut I do have a problem of the way its being taught which gives the attention to us rather then God.
    No worries, [​IMG]My problem is that I want people to be clear that Evolution with God, which is what I believe, is different from 'Intelligent Design', which has no basis in science.
     
  10. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    but is God limited by science
     
  11. eternalarcadia

    eternalarcadia New Member

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    I'm sorry, but if anyone believes the theory of evolution, your openly calling Jesus a liar since He quoted Genesis numerous times in the new testament. If you believe in evolution you also don't have the Christian God that the rest of us do. A God that would use misfits and suffering, or a God that can't get it right the first time doesn't deserve any praise.Why compromise teachings of the bible for such a useless theory?If there is any evidence for evolution, someone please give me your best evidence.
     
  12. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    You are very unfortunately mislead.First of all, in science, Evolution is a proven biological fact. You will find that every one from CS Lewis {Anglican} to the Pope {Catholic}, and even proponents of ID {Michael Behe} agree with this. However, the theory of origins, which is based on evolution, is supported by more evidence than just about any other scientific theory, such as Gravity, and has much more evidence than does Abiogenesis. Listen, go to www.talkorigins.org and see what you find. Take into account that Even the Church father's Didn't necessarily understand Genesis to be literal { http://home.entouch.net/dmd/churchfathers.htm } and the earliest Rabbi's of Judaism certainly don't seem to, as they argue about it in the Talmud, but never once is it suggested or argued by any of them to be literal.Evolution, meaning the theory of origins, is practically a proved hypothesis, as there is not a single iota of evidence to the contrary. However, even if that theory against all odds was wrong, the proposition of the literal biblical creation comes directly against all the geological and scientific evidence we have, along with anthropological evidences galore. What happens, for instance, when a civilization dates itself in it's history to be many hundred years older than we would believe possible given the biblical account?Furthermore, what do you do with the elements of myth in Genesis, such as the snake speaking only to the woman even though Adam was standing right there? Do you not know the other creation stories and religions of Moses' day? Perhaps you haven't studied the Enuma Elish, for instance, to see the various similarities and understand what the authors of Genesis were doing?Finally, I would just like to say, even though the best Catholic scholars now all agree that Evolution (meaning the theory of origins) is a proved fact, and various Popes have written and spoken on this, and all scientists who adhere to the true form of science rather than attempt to redefine it {thus, all objective scientists}, agree this is how it works, and this scientific theory of origins is admonished solely by scientific observation, and recognized not simply in the west but all around the world wherever scientific inquiry is being done empirically, and every scientist of ever nation, background, religion, cluture... even if all of these say so, and have valid theological explanations which vary, and explanations for any question you might have, let me ask you, or rather, ask yourself; are you really open minded enough to question your preconceived notions?Until you try to hear people of a different opinion out, you will never benefit from them and their ideas, whether they are wrong or right. In this case, btw, they are almost definitely correct.I won't begin to show you theologically or scientifically how this all works. First step is first, go do some research and open your mind.In Hope,~Tyrel
     
  13. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    (eternalarcadia;25399)
    I'm sorry, but if anyone believes the theory of evolution, your openly calling Jesus a liar since He quoted Genesis numerous times in the new testament. If you believe in evolution you also don't have the Christian God that the rest of us do. A God that would use misfits and suffering, or a God that can't get it right the first time doesn't deserve any praise.Why compromise teachings of the bible for such a useless theory?If there is any evidence for evolution, someone please give me your best evidence.
    In case you ARE actually looking to find evidence... which I doubt because if you attempted to look for evidences at all then you would absolutely have found inumerable evidences already... but just in case you would like to learn a little more; please, sit back with some popcorn, and watch and consider this video from a Christian Scientist;http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSgIn Hope,~Tyrelps - Don't forget to check with different theologians for their understanding of evolution being compatible with the Scriptures, and don't forget to check www.talkorigins.org I wish you the very best learning experience.
     
  14. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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  15. Jonous

    Jonous New Member

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    (Letsgofishing;25405)
    I saidd I didn't have a problem with evolution.It doesn't mean I can't prove it.
    Hehe exactly the whole point, nobody can. Science is (or better should be) based on what can be observed and studied. Neither of those can be done when talking about the origin of life...Pay a visit here http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/young.asp and you will read some very interesting articles.Praise God.
     
  16. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Biblical Tetragramaton;25400)
    You are very unfortunately mislead.First of all, in science, Evolution is a proven biological fact. You will find that every one from CS Lewis {Anglican} to the Pope {Catholic}, and even proponents of ID {Michael Behe} agree with this. However, the theory of origins, which is based on evolution, is supported by more evidence than just about any other scientific theory, such as Gravity, and has much more evidence than does Abiogenesis. Listen, go to www.talkorigins.org and see what you find. Take into account that Even the Church father's Didn't necessarily understand Genesis to be literal { http://home.entouch.net/dmd/churchfathers.htm } and the earliest Rabbi's of Judaism certainly don't seem to, as they argue about it in the Talmud, but never once is it suggested or argued by any of them to be literal.Evolution, meaning the theory of origins, is practically a proved hypothesis, as there is not a single iota of evidence to the contrary. However, even if that theory against all odds was wrong, the proposition of the literal biblical creation comes directly against all the geological and scientific evidence we have, along with anthropological evidences galore. What happens, for instance, when a civilization dates itself in it's history to be many hundred years older than we would believe possible given the biblical account?Furthermore, what do you do with the elements of myth in Genesis, such as the snake speaking only to the woman even though Adam was standing right there? Do you not know the other creation stories and religions of Moses' day? Perhaps you haven't studied the Enuma Elish, for instance, to see the various similarities and understand what the authors of Genesis were doing?Finally, I would just like to say, even though the best Catholic scholars now all agree that Evolution (meaning the theory of origins) is a proved fact, and various Popes have written and spoken on this, and all scientists who adhere to the true form of science rather than attempt to redefine it {thus, all objective scientists}, agree this is how it works, and this scientific theory of origins is admonished solely by scientific observation, and recognized not simply in the west but all around the world wherever scientific inquiry is being done empirically, and every scientist of ever nation, background, religion, cluture... even if all of these say so, and have valid theological explanations which vary, and explanations for any question you might have, let me ask you, or rather, ask yourself; are you really open minded enough to question your preconceived notions?Until you try to hear people of a different opinion out, you will never benefit from them and their ideas, whether they are wrong or right. In this case, btw, they are almost definitely correct.I won't begin to show you theologically or scientifically how this all works. First step is first, go do some research and open your mind.In Hope,~Tyrel
    I Timothy 6:20 - O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.Jag
     
  17. Dei-Gnostica

    Dei-Gnostica New Member

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    (Letsgofishing;25328)
    but is God limited by science
    No. Science is the mind of God.
     
  18. Dei-Gnostica

    Dei-Gnostica New Member

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    (eternalarcadia;25399)
    I'm sorry, but if anyone believes the theory of evolution, your openly calling Jesus a liar since He quoted Genesis numerous times in the new testament. If you believe in evolution you also don't have the Christian God that the rest of us do. A God that would use misfits and suffering, or a God that can't get it right the first time doesn't deserve any praise.Why compromise teachings of the bible for such a useless theory?If there is any evidence for evolution, someone please give me your best evidence.
    As I believe it, it makes more sense to be a Christian and believe in Evolution than otherwise. God created the Big Bang, and from that, by His will, allowed the Universe to flow forth into the state we see today. Jesus quoted the Genesis on symbolic terms. Again, Jesus wanted us to use our God given gift: out brain, and think for ourselves. Our Lord and Saviour wants us to use our most valuable asset and understand and observe the world around us.
     
  19. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Evolution is false. However, adaptation is true, and given to us by God. It allows all of His creatures to adapt to their surroundings. Like, when a dog moves north, it's fur thickens. But if a dog lives in the north for a long period of time, you might see some more changes. Changes occur for birds, cats, and humans. For ALL creatures. We just didn't come from monkeys.
     
  20. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    (Wakka;25430)
    Evolution is false. However, adaptation is true, and given to us by God. It allows all of His creatures to adapt to their surroundings. Like, when a dog moves north, it's fur thickens. But if a dog lives in the north for a long period of time, you might see some more changes. Changes occur for birds, cats, and humans. For ALL creatures. We just didn't come from monkeys.
    That is actually not called adaptation, it's called Evolution. Here's why;There were a great many theories as to how animals adapt, which is demonstrable and observable around the world. Now, Lamark had one theory, Darwin's Grandfather had some really crazy ideas, and Darwin had the same Idea that Alfred Wallace had {and actually the theory of natural selection was published by Alfred Wallace before Darwin Published his, but his was supported by loads and loads of articled evidence, whereas Alfred Wallace wrote about 10 pages with no supporting evidence}.Darwin's theory of natural selection happens to be the correct model, and is now the cornerstone of modern biology. Though we have tested it a great deal, it happens to stand to every level of scrutiny. Furthermore, what scientists do is they make assumptions based on theories they think are true, such as Gravity and Evolution, and they test those assumptions. It turns out it leads us faithfully to make confirmed predictions which only helps support it. Some call it "micro-evolution" as though to contrast it to "macro-evolution", the latter of which has "never been observed", what is the scientific difference between these two? The difference; Time. Evolution, is the term which is descriptive of the theory of adaptation. We evolve. It's also called Darwin's model of Natural Selection. Evolution is a superbiological fact, observed practically every day now. Applying that theory to recreate an adequate lineage, or recreate the origins of man, is something which we have done broadly, and then we found more evidence than we ever thought possible supporting the theory of evolution even further.As I said, no Iota of evidence to the contrary. It could be wrong. One explanation I've heard is that all the geological evidence, the dinosaur bones, and everything else, was specially placed here by Satan so that our Faith would, in the end times, begin to shake. However, take note of this; there is by no means any scientific challenge to Evolutionary theory. So, stop up your ears and grab the blindfold if you want to, but as far as I'm concerned, Jesus was all about letting the Truth set us free.Please, do watch http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg
     
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