Daniel 7:11 “the beast.”

[CTK]

Yes, I do mind a bit, because I'm not going to pull out a single verse so as to try and apply a context outside the Daniel 2 Chapter flow. I will only address it with other Scripture in that Chapter that keeps the flow.

All these verses must be understood together in context with each other...

Dan 2:40-44
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

4th kingdom (ancient Rome), the "legs of iron", does NOT include the feet of ten toes.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Verse 41 begins by referring back to verses 34-35. Verse 35 also shows the FIVE pieces being broken 'together' at the END of this world, because at the END of this world is when Christ's 'literal', physical Kingdom will be setup on this earth with His direct Presence, reigning from Jerusalem on earth per Zechariah 14 and Psalms 2. That is when all the pieces of the beast statue are broken by Christ as that "stone" of verse 35. And notice that "stone" does not smite that 4th kingdom upon its "legs of iron", but upon the next kingdom of the feet part of iron, and part of clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
KJV

Once again, the subject of verse 35 when Messiah returns at His 2nd coming, which is when Christ as the "stone" will smite that FIFTH beast upon its feet of ten toes, and ALL the 5 beast statue pieces coming tumbling down, together. And Christ's Kingdom, His literal Kingdom with His coming, is then setup in its place. THAT... has not happened yet today.

First, let’s get this 5th kingdom out of the way. Daniel specifically identifies 4 kingdoms - not only in chapter 2 but also in chapter 7. Just because there is a clay element within the 4th kingdom (and the feet are indeed part of the 4th kingdom) nowhere will you find this makes for a 5th kingdom.

The 4th kingdom is made of a metal element of iron - no different than the other 3 kingdoms but it includes the non- metallic element of clay as it is a symbol of ????? In this case the clay represents Israel.

You can easily review the OT to find that God is referred to as the “Potter” and His people “the clay.” I suggest you read Jeremiah 28:1-6. Also, see Daniel 7:3 and 7:17.

Now, let’s move to verse41.

1) Feet and toes are made of part clay and part iron - who is the clay and who is the iron ? You do not identify who these symbols belong to - They are being presented for a reason and for a specific time in history.

2) the kingdom shall be divided.
What kingdom is being divided? What has caused this division? And after this division please tell me what are the two sections or parts of that kingdom that was divided. There was one, now there is two.

3) What is the significance of Daniel recording the kingdom in 41, now identified as “part clay and part iron,” versus the kingdom identified in the “dream sequence” of verse 33 as “feet of partly iron and partly clay?”

4) Again, what has caused this change in clay now taking the superior position to that of the iron?

5) But there shall be “IN IT” the “strength of iron.” What kingdom does “in it” refer to? Specifically, what is Daniel telling us that the “strength of iron” is within it?

6) “For as much as thou saw the iron mixed with clay.” Why does Daniel mention this ? What is he referring to ? Why is this important? Does it seem it might be comparing two different kingdoms at different times and yet they will both have “this same strength of iron” within each of them? And once again, what has caused these very important changes WITHIN THIS 4th kingdom?

7) Daniel tells us the 4th kingdom will be “divided,” (no 5th kingdom is ever mentioned, and still there will only be 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 7 (after this division!). In your interpretation, who is this “divided” kingdom and when does it appear? Please keep in mind that it is not a “spiritual” kingdom (God’s kingdom) because it is still constructed of man made elements.

8) If all of this represents end time events, why all the details about metals and clay and the rest of the complicated details in 42-44 which are even more complicated than 41? If these all represent His return, then everything is fulfilled and done- ALL EARTHLY kingdoms, including the clay will be destroyed. See verse 45 where God now purposely lists ALL of the 4 metal elements PLUS He places the clay now in the “middle of these 4 metal elements. Please compare this to verse 35 where the clay is placed adjacent to the iron- not in the middle…. Why is this important? What is this telling us? Do you think this tells us there is indeed a time element to consider here? Perhaps events that take place in 35 verses events that take place 2000 years later in 45? Again, what do you think has caused these changes from 35 to 45?

I will not look at your comments for verses 42-44 at this time. You have so much work to do for verse 31! Do you really still believe Daniel is easy to interpret? As I mentioned, these 4 verses are THE MOST DIFFICULT IN ALL ODF DANIEL excluding chapter 11- that entire chapter is OFF THE CHARTS IN COMPLEXITY.

Daniel is NOT EASY TO UNPACK DESPITE WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

God is very detailed oriented and He selects every word and places them in the order He needs to in order to reveal His prophecy. One cannot simply make a claim that these verses are “end time” events and here is what I think they mean… God includes and excludes those words and their order for a reason- not just to fill up paragraphs and certainly not for us to group them together and throw them some 2000 years in the future because they are almost impossible to unpack.

Look forward to your revised interpretation of verse 41.

 

[CTK]

Didn't I mention that you are letting that word "fourth" throw you off about the 'final' beast system being setup today for the end of this world?

The FIVE pieces of the beast statue in Daniel 2 are clearly shown.

For there to be only 4 beast kingdoms, that would mean the 'old' Roman empire was the last one, since it is represented by the "legs of iron". It fell with Justinian in the 6th century A.D., and is no more. That would mean no "great tribulation" for the end like Bible prophecy states. And that would mean what Lord Jesus showed about the beast at the end is a lie.

No where does God discuss, refer to or talk about “pieces.” He has specifically brought only 4 KINGDOMS, not pieces, where He will reveal His plan of restoration for His people and His city.

And yes, these verses Roman Empire is indeed the 4th and last kingdom - no others will be found within His plan of restoration and salvation (Book of Daniel). But as I mentioned in my previous response, you must not ignore the wording in verse 41 where He specifically tells us the kingdom will be divided- what kingdom, when does this happen, what causes this division, why did this have to take place, why does this confirm it could not possibly be an end time event?

 

[CTK]

That is one of your major faulty interpretation problems with that Daniel 2 Scripture.

Dan.2:34-35 and Dan.2:44-45 makes it plain that the beast of the feet of ten toes of part iron and part clay will exist at the END, when Jesus' 2nd coming happens. Christ Jesus' 1st coming was meek as a Lamb to be sacrificed, but not His future 2nd coming which is still sometime in our near future.

There is nothing “plain” about Daniel… it is extremely difficult to unpack. And here you continue to ignore the actual wording in Daniel

1) yes, the 4th beast will indeed continue until His return when it will be destroyed without human hand. But who is this beast in your interpretation?


Are you suggesting the 10 toes are a beast? Well, I can assure you they are not, but you are correct they too will remain UNTIL He returns. But these 10 toes of chapter 2 - doesn’t God show them as 10 horns in chapter 7? Why is that? What had caused Him to make the significant change from toes sitting at the end of the iron kingdom to now as 10 horns or powers that are now being shown to be “coming out” of that same 4th kingdom of iron? Do you still think everything Daniel is revealing are all end time events? If so, why doesn’t he speak about the most important event in the history of mankind- the first coming of the Messiah DURING THE TIME OF THE EARLY PART OF THE 4th kingdom? And is it a coincidence that at the end of the 69th week of the prophecy, the Messiah will arrive to begin his ministry - in the early part of the 4th kingdom?

And why do you continue to identify this end time kingdom as “iron and clay?” Shouldn’t it be “clay and iron?”

Moreover, the world events today are very plain as to what is going on, the beast workers no longer hide their plans for a "one world government" (a.k.a. "New World Order"). That is that final beast kingdom of the feet of ten toes of Daniel 2. The Revelation 17 Scripture, which Jesus gave His Church about the events leading up to His 2nd coming, also parallels this Daniel 2 matter of the final beast kingdom with the "ten kings" (representing the ten toes of the feet) manifest, together, at the END of this world, under the "little horn" king, the Antichrist.

So I don't know who you are listening to with trying to apply that final beast kingdom to the time of the cross, but they have misled you terribly.

So, more than once does Daniel tell us that he is writing to “his people and his city.” Note, God has him write “his people and his city” NOT “His people and His city.” And this is to ensure we understand these prophecies speak to those people taken into captivity with Daniel and who will be part of those who will return to Jerusalem as part of this plan of restoration. It does not speak to end time events or end time Israel when the blindness of their eyes will be removed.


You mention an “anti-Christ figure- please tell me what verse this comes from… And please do not select the 4 and only 4 times this term is found in the NT which ONLY speaks of the “spirit of the anti-Christ.”

But what about the little horn of Daniel 7, 8 and 11? Who is he? When does he arrive on the scene? Is he also an end time arrival? If so, how do you explain all the specific characteristics and actions he enters into that are found in those same 3 chapters? Once again, is all of Daniel just thrown some 2000 years in the future?

Have you studied Revelation? When does the first church begin? Is this an end time church? Do you think the first few churches can be tied directly to the period after the cross? Can you see how Daniel speaks of these same times- not end times?

I have not listened to anyone regarding my new interpretations. Because you will not find them in ANY OTHER COMMENTARY by ANY past or current scholar or theologian!

However, I have indeed read those interpretations that make up “today’s accepted interpretations” by those same scholars and theologians, which by the way, do not agree with each other! I studied them to learn about Daniel but found they could not agree at all regarding the most important prophetic verses in Daniel. But I used their knowledge and understanding to guide me in interpreting each verse.

 

[CTK]

Sorry CTK, but I do not buy your kind of sneaky wrapped insinuation that you offered me the same opportunity to reveal the meaning of the final Daniel 2 beast kingdom, which is NOT about Rome, nor about the time of Christ's 1st coming.

As a matter of fact, I really don't see how... you can admit the Dan.2 "stone" (which represents Lord Jesus's 2nd coming), and at the same time reject it, and instead claim that it is about His 1st coming to die on the cross?

There is nothing “sneaky wrapped up insinuation” … what is wrong with you? I mentioned to the other poster if he would also want to discuss his verse 41 interpretation.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Does anyone know about a Theodotian version of Daniel?

 

[William Barton]

A wicked fallen angel who rebelled with Satan



The fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12 will be slain in around 20 years from now.



No, the fourth beast is not one of the kingdoms referenced in Daniel 2's statue prophecy.



The reference to this chapter during the time of the reformation fathers and linking the Daniel 2 statue prophecy to the Daniel 7 prophecy was to demonise the RCC and its pope so that the reformation fathers could forge a chasm between themselves and the RCC so that they could break away from the control of the Pope and the RCC.

IMO:
The six "beasts" appointed to preserve order in the Middle East are:
1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Persia
5. Greece
6. Rome

Daniel lived during the Babylonian empire, so he saw three future "beasts": Persia, Greece, Rome. Then he saw a fourth beast not like the others, because it looked like a man. We call this fourth beast "antichrist."

 

[Davy]

First, let’s get this 5th kingdom out of the way. Daniel specifically identifies 4 kingdoms - not only in chapter 2 but also in chapter 7. Just because there is a clay element within the 4th kingdom (and the feet are indeed part of the 4th kingdom) nowhere will you find this makes for a 5th kingdom.

Nope. You are determined to change... the flow of that Daniel 2 Scripture about a 5th beast kingdom at the END. It is clearly shown there, so you have no excuse to omit it. It is thus obvious that you are following a doctrine of man in place of that Scripture.

So I'll not waste my time with you anymore. You are simply wanting someone to hit on with trying... to show how you have interpreted the Daniel 2 is correct. Well, YOUR VIEW IS NOT CORRECT, BUT STRAYS FROM THE ACTUAL WRITTEN SCRIPTURE.


BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Just so you are aware, there will... be a world beast kingdom established on this earth by Satan's host at the very END of this world. And as... written, Lord Jesus' 2nd coming is when and how that false beast kingdom will be destroyed, and none like it will ever appear again.

So if you hear someone claim that already happened back at Christ's 1st coming, or that no such event will happen at the END of this world, then you know you are talking with one who is deceived by Satan's host.

 

[CTK]

Nope. You are determined to change... the flow of that Daniel 2 Scripture about a 5th beast kingdom at the END. It is clearly shown there, so you have no excuse to omit it. It is thus obvious that you are following a doctrine of man in place of that Scripture.

So I'll not waste my time with you anymore. You are simply wanting someone to hit on with trying... to show how you have interpreted the Daniel 2 is correct. Well, YOUR VIEW IS NOT CORRECT, BUT STRAYS FROM THE ACTUAL WRITTEN SCRIPTURE.


BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Just so you are aware, there will... be a world beast kingdom established on this earth by Satan's host at the very END of this world. And as... written, Lord Jesus' 2nd coming is when and how that false beast kingdom will be destroyed, and none like it will ever appear again.

So if you hear someone claim that already happened back at Christ's 1st coming, or that no such event will happen at the END of this world, then you know you are talking with one who is deceived by Satan's host.

Not surprised at all. Best wishes.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again CTK and Davy,

I mentioned to the other poster if he would also want to discuss his verse 41 interpretation.

I have already given a different perspective on the clay and thus we have a different view of Daniel 2:41. The clay is a later development than at the time of the 1st Coming.

Once again, the subject of verse 35 when Messiah returns at His 2nd coming, which is when Christ as the "stone" will smite that FIFTH beast upon its feet of ten toes

I have also stated that the feet and toes are part of the Fourth Beast, the Roman Kingdom.

Seeing you are both interested in Daniel 2, have you considered the words of Jesus where it appears that Jesus is referring to Daniel 2?

Matthew 21:40–44 (KJV): 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jay Ross]

Whoever hold to the notion that the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue is the Roman Empire actually have no understanding of the statue prophecy.

The fourth segment in the Statue in this prophecy is the Nation of Iraq which was recognised before God in 1926 AD when a nation was raised up to have dominion over the Land of Babylon.

It follows that the next nation/coalition of nations that invaded the land of Babylon was the Coalition of Nations lead by the USA and it is during these kings of the nations of the coalitions that the "rock/stone" will come down out of heaven whichwill become the largest mountain/religion in all of the earth.

Shalom