Phoneman777
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Daniel`s 70 Weeks.
- Thread starter Marilyn C
- Start date
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Hi Phoneman777,Phoneman777 said:
Dear bro, I don`t think you are reading my comments in detail. The 69 weeks are I believe 69 x 7 of 30 months. So exactly measured in days as I said.
So....where are your scriptures to give the EXACT days of 69 weeks, (or your 70 weeks) & not just an `about,` ......giving just a general year, but not specific. etc?
Marilyn.
BTW Did you see my comments just prior to the dates, on the Prince?
Phoneman777
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Marilyn, as I stated earlier, Jesus was baptized the only year that Tiberius, Herod, and Pilate simultaneously reigned, which according to the Syro-Macedonian calendar that Biblical evidence points to the one Luke preferred, was 27 A.D. Please look into why this is ignored by those who wish to obscure 27 A.D as His baptism. Also, scholars recognize that Jesus wasn't born 1 A.D, but 4 B.C. How in the world can Jesus have been crucified in 33 A.D. when He had already ascended almost 3 years before?Marilyn C said:
I...............I.........................................................I......................................I
4 B.C. 27A.D 31 A.D. 34 A.D.
(birth) (baptism/ministry begins at 30) (crucified/ascension) (Stephen stoned/Gospel goes to Gentiles)
Wormwood
Chaps
\
The crucifixion and subsequent sacrifices was the abomination which causes desolation. The result of which led to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Thus the rejection of Jesus' sacrifice was what led to the desolation of Jerusalem, which is a microcosm of what will happen to the world.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
That's not what Jesus said.Wormwood said:
Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..." ( let the reader understand),
Jesus said the abomination would stand in the Holy Place: that is defined in the Bible (Exodus) as being in the Temple.
In no manner can you legitimately say in a literal fashion that His Crucifixion "stood" in the Temple.
Of course, if you take a figurative fashion in interpreting the Olivet Discourse, the beauty of that man-made system of exegesis allows you to say anything is anything you want it to be.
Likewise, that is not what Paul said:
2Th 2:4 the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Again, you have a person in the Temple of God; the Holy Place.
Furthermore, John wrote from God's Revelation that:
Rev 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth... telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak.
Abomination in the Bible refers to idol worship. One thing about idols that the Prophets raised against them is that they could not speak. Well this one does!
Jesus was not the abomination, nor was His Death.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
And when Jesus references Daniel 9:27 as being yet to come, and Paul, years later, writes of the same thing, and then decades later John writes down the revelation of God concerning not only a beast of a man who suffers a deadly wound but doesn't die; and then has an image made of him which is a talking idol - and all that has yet to happen:
Then Daniel 9:27 and the one 'seven' is not past tense history, but prophecy for the future, a future which has not yet realized.
Then Daniel 9:27 and the one 'seven' is not past tense history, but prophecy for the future, a future which has not yet realized.
Wormwood
Chaps
I dont think you are reading very carefully what I wrote. The Abomination was the crucifixion and subsequent sacrifices offered to God in rejection of the perfect sacrifice. Thus, the slaughtering of animals in the Temple every day by Israel was an abomination to God because it showed that they rejected the sacrifice of Jesus. So, when the High Priest stood in the Temple to offer the blood of bulls and goats in the Temple, it was an abomination to God, as Hebrews says...
I never said Jesus was the abomination. I said the rejection of Jesus and his sacrifice was the abomination which caused the desolation Jesus predicted in Matt 21-22:
“Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.” (Matthew 22:4–7, ESV)
“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”” (Matthew 21:38–41, ESV) (as Jesus said, "Your house is left to you desolate!")
As for 2 Tim. 2:4, the verbs are present participles (NIV has them as future tense which is inaccurate). It should read, " “who is opposing and exalting himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4, ESV) Paul was not speaking of a future event but a present, ongoing event. The "man of sin/mystery of lawlessness" is Satan. He presently sets himself up in God's Temple. This brings to mind the evil persecutors of God's people in the OT (Antiochus Epiphanes IV), and is a microcosm of the real enemy of God who "is opposing and exalting himself above every so-called god or object of worship."
Paul's point in 2 Thess is simple. The question plaguing the Thessalonicans is, "Have we missed the second coming?" Paul's very simple answer is, "No. You can know you havent missed it because there is still lawlessness and idolatry in the world. One day, Jesus will reveal the one behind the lawlessness of this world and destroy him with the breath of his mouth. But as long as evil and lawlessness exists, you know Christ has not returned and the man of sin is still at work exalting himself and his agenda in the world."
That is Paul's point. Pointing to a future Antichrist sitting in the Temple hundreds of miles away from Thessalonica would have been of no comfort or assurance to these Christians that were worried they would miss the Second Coming. After all, how would they know (in a time of no TV or internet) that someone showed up to the Temple to exalt himself? Such an argument would make no sense and wouldnt comfort anyone. Paul is talking about the destruction of evil as a whole, not the arrival of a mysterious man in the Temple hundreds of miles away.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
I don't think you are reading very carefully what I wrote.Wormwood said:
Jesus said the abomination would be in the Temple.
Paul wrote the man of lawlessness would proclaim himself god in the Temple.
John wrote that an image of the beast of a man who suffered a deadly wound but lived would speak and be worshiped or else.
You say it was the crucifixion and subsequent Jewish sacrifice.
3 to 1 - says your take isn't what they were talking about.
[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Seventy weeks we decreed to bring an end to sin and atone for iniquity, not to bring an end to the world. Sin was defeated and atonement was provided at the cross. The covenant that was set up for many is the New Covenant in Christ's blood. The entire focus of these weeks is the cross of Jesus and to make it about end times scenarios is to ignore what the angel said the 70 weeks was pointing to in the above verse.[/SIZE]
Hi Wormwood,
Thank you for your thoughts. I do agree that the 70 weeks was decreed to…….& not to bring an end to the world. Also that atonement was provided by the cross. We know that the Lord is the Mediator who brought this atonement with His own blood. However not everyone realizes that the Lord`s mediation involves more than just the atonement, it also means - restitution, and remuneration?
God told Moses -
`Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people. For He will avenge the blood of His servants, & render vengeance to His adversaries He will provide atonement for His land & His people.` (Deut. 32: 43)
[SIZE=14pt]So we see that God said He would provide atonement for the people of Israel & the land, plus avenging & rendering vengeance on His enemies. Then we realize that this has not as yet been fulfilled. Some things have, but not all. There are still some events that the Lord will fulfil when He comes in power & great glory with all His angelic army with Him.[/SIZE]
Thus I believe there is a component to God`s decree in Daniel 9 that has to do with the end times. Meaning the end of the times of the Gentiles ruling the world.
Marilyn.
for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.” ([SIZE=12pt]Daniel 9:24, ESV[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Seventy weeks we decreed to bring an end to sin and atone for iniquity, not to bring an end to the world. Sin was defeated and atonement was provided at the cross. The covenant that was set up for many is the New Covenant in Christ's blood. The entire focus of these weeks is the cross of Jesus and to make it about end times scenarios is to ignore what the angel said the 70 weeks was pointing to in the above verse.[/SIZE]
Hi Wormwood,
Thank you for your thoughts. I do agree that the 70 weeks was decreed to…….& not to bring an end to the world. Also that atonement was provided by the cross. We know that the Lord is the Mediator who brought this atonement with His own blood. However not everyone realizes that the Lord`s mediation involves more than just the atonement, it also means - restitution, and remuneration?
God told Moses -
`Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people. For He will avenge the blood of His servants, & render vengeance to His adversaries He will provide atonement for His land & His people.` (Deut. 32: 43)
[SIZE=14pt]So we see that God said He would provide atonement for the people of Israel & the land, plus avenging & rendering vengeance on His enemies. Then we realize that this has not as yet been fulfilled. Some things have, but not all. There are still some events that the Lord will fulfil when He comes in power & great glory with all His angelic army with Him.[/SIZE]
Thus I believe there is a component to God`s decree in Daniel 9 that has to do with the end times. Meaning the end of the times of the Gentiles ruling the world.
Marilyn.
[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](birth) (baptism/ministry begins at 30) (crucified/ascension) (Stephen stoned/Gospel goes to Gentiles) `[/SIZE]
`
Hi Phoneman,
Now dear bro, although you have a timeline with dates etc do you not have any scriptures to show exactly what God is saying. You are relying on other material. And your `dates,` are just general references to events.
I gave you exact dates & scriptures
Prophetic – 483 yrs x 360 days = 173, 880 days.
Calendar – 476 yrs x 365. 242 (1/4 leap year) + 25 days = 173, 880 days.
From March 5, 444 BC......................................................March 30, 33 AD.
So to me I understand that from March 5, 444 BC till March 30, 33 AD there is exactly 173, 880 days for both Prophetic & Calendar years also. (69 weeks)
Also the `Messiah the Prince` as prophesied in Zech. 9: 9 is clearly Palm Sunday.
Marilyn.
[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]4 B.C. 27A.D 31 A.D. 34 A.D.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](birth) (baptism/ministry begins at 30) (crucified/ascension) (Stephen stoned/Gospel goes to Gentiles) `[/SIZE]
`
Hi Phoneman,
Now dear bro, although you have a timeline with dates etc do you not have any scriptures to show exactly what God is saying. You are relying on other material. And your `dates,` are just general references to events.
I gave you exact dates & scriptures
Prophetic – 483 yrs x 360 days = 173, 880 days.
Calendar – 476 yrs x 365. 242 (1/4 leap year) + 25 days = 173, 880 days.
From March 5, 444 BC......................................................March 30, 33 AD.
- 536 BC - The return of the first detachment under Zerubbabel & Jeshua. (Ezra 1 – 6, Haggai & Zechariah)
- 458 BC – The expedition of Ezra, 78 years later. (Ezra 7 – 10)
- 444 BC – The commission of Nehemiah, 14 years after the expedition of Ezra. (Neh. 2: 1 – 5)
So to me I understand that from March 5, 444 BC till March 30, 33 AD there is exactly 173, 880 days for both Prophetic & Calendar years also. (69 weeks)
Also the `Messiah the Prince` as prophesied in Zech. 9: 9 is clearly Palm Sunday.
Marilyn.
Hi Marcus,
Just want to say I have appreciated your comments & agree with you. God`s word is so clear & it is good to read what the Lord has shown you. May we all continue to listen to His Holy Spirit as He clarifies more truth to us, - the Body of Christ.
Blessings, Marilyn.
Just want to say I have appreciated your comments & agree with you. God`s word is so clear & it is good to read what the Lord has shown you. May we all continue to listen to His Holy Spirit as He clarifies more truth to us, - the Body of Christ.
Blessings, Marilyn.
Phoneman777
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You've omitted the most important date: 457 B.C. It was the decree of Artaxerxes in his 7th year reign found in Ezra 7:8-13 KJV, which is the only one comprehensive enough to fulfill Gabriel's description that it would "restore and build Jerusalem" (Daniel 9:25 KJV) 444 B.C. was merely the lifting of the moratorium put in place by Artaxerxes in Ezra 4 (the book of Ezra is not chronologically in order) due to Israel's enemies' false accusations, not a new decree. 457 B.C. + 69 weeks (483 years) = 27 A.D., not 34 A.D.Marilyn C said:
I'm still unsure which "Scriptures" prove your position. I've provided them this time for you to review and I think you'll agree that they are correct. As far as "prince" is concerned, I ask you, was Jesus a "prince" at birth, being the Son of the Most High King? I think you'll have to agree.
You may not agree that He was also "Michael the Great Prince" pre-incarnate. This used to be a commonly accepted belief among Christians that Jesus - the name He took to Himself when He manifested Himself in the flesh, was "Michael" - the name He took when He manifested Himself as the Angel of the Lord in the OT. This idea that Michael the Archangel - which means "He Who is as God, the ruler of the Angels" was none other than Jesus was an accepted doctrine among many Christians until JW began twisting the arguments to "prove" that Jesus was nothing more than a created angel that eventually became flesh, which caused many to shy away from this teaching and is now all but lost among Christians, thanks to the Luciferian 33 0 Freemason Russell and his twisted gnostic doctrines of occultism which masquerade as Christianity. Surely, the Bible would not refer to Jesus as merely "prince" while referring to a mere angel as "the Great Prince", would it? No, because Jesus was "the Great Prince" before He was born, at His birth, and when He stepped out of the Jordan to commence the last week of Daniel's prophecy.
I'd like to read your thoughts on my points regarding Jesus' 4 B.C. birth and 27 A.D. baptism.
Wormwood
Chaps
Marcus, once again you are mushing various passages in different contexts with the assumption they all are referring to the same thing. I am no constrained by your presuppositions. We are talking about Daniel's passage and Jesus' quote of that passage. If you want to start throwing in 2 Thess. and Revelation into the mix, that is on you. That is not what I was discussing as I do not see them all referring to the same thing. Again, lets deal with one text at a time instead of interpreting Daniel by Revelation, Revelation by 2 Thessalonians and so forth. That is the primary problem I have with your attempts to understand Scripture. You already have your understanding and in order to prove your understanding is true, you mash 5 different texts with different contexts to validate your preconceived views rather than explaining how one text supports your view. No, you have to rip Daniel out of his context and insert him into Revelation in order to validate that Daniel is speaking about the 21st century or beyond. You make Daniel's own words meaningless because they no longer have any shred of meaning for the original audience, instead, you dismiss all its historical relevance and force it to talk about the 21st century or beyond which would have meant nothing to the audience Daniel was writing toward. Each text should stand on its own. The Bible is not a puzzle that must be assembled in just the right way to understand it. If a text cannot stand on its own two feet, then chances are you are misrepresenting the text.
Thank you for your reply, Marylin. I dont see that the angel tells Daniel what you are suggesting. While other places (such as Deuteronomy 32:43) may refer to vengence in combination with atonement that is not what we see in Daniel. Besides, in one sense, God's vengeance was applied to the atonement as his wrath was poured out on the cross. The focus of Daniel is the coming of the Messiah. That is the point of the 70 weeks according to the angel giving the message. It is not to point to a 7 year end times tribulation and Antichrist. The 70 weeks makes no sense otherwise...there is no need for crazy gaps or other such theories to try to incorporate some end time 7 year tribulation and Antichrist. The prediction is a simple 490 year time table that begins at the order to rebuild Jerusalem and ends with the creating of the New Covenant by the blood of Christ with the ominous prediction that those who cut off the Anointed one will be made desolate after that time. That is exactly what happened. Revelation uses similar imagery to point to the same prediction on a world wide scale for those who reject the message of the Church and worship the god of this world instead.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
They are, and it's not an assumption.Wormwood said:
Jesus references the abomination of desolation that Daniel wrote about in 9:27. That's not an assumption.
Likewise, in answering when He would come again in the Olivet Discourse, Paul is also talking about what happens before Jesus comes again.
Furthermore, John is detailing what will happen in the first half of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapter 13 which leads up to the very reason the Great Tribulation is so terrible for the Elect so as to be able to completely wipe them out if the Father did not step in with Jesus' parousia on the Day of the Lord (which, not by coincidence, happens with the very same gathering from the clouds with the "harvest" in Revelation chapter 14).
I know. That's the beauty of your school of exegesis; you can draw any relationship you want. Which is how you can say: "The crucifixion and subsequent sacrifices was the abomination which causes desolation."Wormwood said:
The topic (currently) is the future orientation or past fulfillment of Daniel's seventy 'sevens'. I addressed that, and the abomination of desolation is central to that question.
And the abomination is not Jesus' crucifixion.
Hi Phoneman,
Nice that you are interested in my thoughts re Jesus` birth etc, however for now I`m just looking at what God`s word says regarding the 70 weeks.
We know that to measure something accurately we need to have a starting point. If we don`t then it is just an approximation or speculation & opinion. So let`s look at God`s specific date that fixes the 70 weeks measurement.
God`s Fixed Point.
`And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak unto the children of Israel, & say to them, concerning the feasts of the Lord,…….in the 14th day of the first month at evening, is the Lord`s Passover, & on the 15th day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord…` (Lev. 23: 1 – 5)
[SIZE=14pt]`Then Jesus, 6 days before the Passover came to Bethany, …..On the next day[/SIZE] much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took branches of palm trees, & went forth to meet Him….& Jesus, when He had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
“Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass`s colt.”`(John 12: 1, 12 – 15. Zech. 9: 9)
So clearly we see from scripture that when Jesus when into Jerusalem (as Prophesied) riding on a colt of a donkey, with the people acclaiming Him, that that day was 5 days before the Passover. The Passover is God`s first proclaimed feast for Israel & it is on the 15 day of the first month, Nisan.
So there is our `fixed point` by God, the 15th of Nisan just before Jesus is crucified. So let`s now look at the prophet Daniel –
`70 weeks are determined for your people & for your city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal vision & prophecy, & to anoint the Most Holy.
Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks; the street shall be built again, & the wall, even in troublesome times. After the 62 weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;…`(Dan. 9: 24 & 25)
So UNTIL the MESSIAH THE PRINCE, (commander) there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks, (69 weeks).This we see from God`s word is when Jesus rode on the colt into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday just before the Passover.
Then we see that it is AFTER 69 weeks that the Messiah is cut off…..He is crucified.
This is very specific & clear from God`s word regarding this portion of the 70 weeks. Obviously there is still ONE WEEK, 7 years to be completed.
So to be credible Phoneman you will need specific scriptures with specific dates & not just man`s research, as good as that can be at times, it is not infallible.
Marilyn.
Nice that you are interested in my thoughts re Jesus` birth etc, however for now I`m just looking at what God`s word says regarding the 70 weeks.
We know that to measure something accurately we need to have a starting point. If we don`t then it is just an approximation or speculation & opinion. So let`s look at God`s specific date that fixes the 70 weeks measurement.
God`s Fixed Point.
`And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak unto the children of Israel, & say to them, concerning the feasts of the Lord,…….in the 14th day of the first month at evening, is the Lord`s Passover, & on the 15th day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord…` (Lev. 23: 1 – 5)
[SIZE=14pt]`Then Jesus, 6 days before the Passover came to Bethany, …..On the next day[/SIZE] much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took branches of palm trees, & went forth to meet Him….& Jesus, when He had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
“Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass`s colt.”`(John 12: 1, 12 – 15. Zech. 9: 9)
So clearly we see from scripture that when Jesus when into Jerusalem (as Prophesied) riding on a colt of a donkey, with the people acclaiming Him, that that day was 5 days before the Passover. The Passover is God`s first proclaimed feast for Israel & it is on the 15 day of the first month, Nisan.
So there is our `fixed point` by God, the 15th of Nisan just before Jesus is crucified. So let`s now look at the prophet Daniel –
`70 weeks are determined for your people & for your city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal vision & prophecy, & to anoint the Most Holy.
Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks; the street shall be built again, & the wall, even in troublesome times. After the 62 weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;…`(Dan. 9: 24 & 25)
So UNTIL the MESSIAH THE PRINCE, (commander) there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks, (69 weeks).This we see from God`s word is when Jesus rode on the colt into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday just before the Passover.
Then we see that it is AFTER 69 weeks that the Messiah is cut off…..He is crucified.
This is very specific & clear from God`s word regarding this portion of the 70 weeks. Obviously there is still ONE WEEK, 7 years to be completed.
So to be credible Phoneman you will need specific scriptures with specific dates & not just man`s research, as good as that can be at times, it is not infallible.
Marilyn.
Phoneman777
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Hi Marilyn,Marilyn C said:
Jesus was a "Prince" from birth and exercised "command" as a commander over the elements, angels, demons, and men of authority even at the tender age of 12 and long before His Triumphant Entry, and has been regarded Biblically as "Michael the Great Prince" of the OT by many Christians in the past (until the JW caused reproach to be cast upon that idea). There's no reason to insist that "Prince" must refer to the Triumphant Entry and, while trying not to sound harsh, doing so is a textbook example of subjective interpretation.
Kevin aka Phoneman777
Wormwood
Chaps
I didnt say it was. You should read what I write. I said I wanted to discuss the text in Daniel 9 that Jesus quotes. You try to define the Daniel 9 passage by injecting passages in Revelation and 2 Thessalonians. Why? Why is it impossible for you to simply examine one text and come to a conclusion about that text from the passage itself? Why do we have to jump to Paul and John and Revelation to understand what Daniel wrote in Daniel 9? Is Daniel's vision unintelligible without mashing 5 other texts together to define it? The way we should understand Scripture is to understand what Daniel was saying and then look at what Jesus was saying based on understanding Daniel's message within its own context. I assure you, Daniel was not writing to his people in the 500s BC to inform them about an Antichrist and a 7 year tribulation that would show up over 2,500 years later. Nor is that what Jesus was trying to communicate when he quoted Daniel.
My school of exegesis looks at the actual passages and draws conclusions from what they actually say...rather than having Darby construct a massive Biblical puzzle that must be crammed together in the proper order to unlock future predictions about America, Israel and the end of the world. So, based on my school of exegesis, lets look at the actual text in Daniel 9...
Here we see the purpose of the 70 weeks prediction. To bring an end to sin, atonement, bring in everlasting righteousness and to seal/confirm vision and prophet...as well as to anoint a most holy place. Hmm, so what event in history put an end to sin, brought about atonement and everlasting righteousness, confirmed God's promises through the prophets and anoint a dwelling place for God? Maybe the cross?
- The cross brought an end to transgression and the law.
-The cross conquered sin and death.
-The cross brought atonement
-The cross established everlasting righteousness for those who believed
-The cross cleanses us so we can receive the anointing of the Holy Spirit (the NT tells us God never desired to dwell in buildings of stone, but in hearts of flesh!)
Well, its just a theory, lets see if the vision actually bears this out...
Just a little prediction here by the angel that a decree would go out to rebuild Jerusalem and 7 weeks (49 years) later the city would be built with squares and a moat, but in a troubled time (we read about this in Nehemiah).
Another 62 weeks would pass and the Anointed one would come. He would be cut off and have nothing. I believe John tells us something like, "he came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him." Seems to fit.
The people (Jews) of the prince to come (Jesus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. That is exactly what happened. The Jews brought destruction on their own city by their rejection of Jesus and the crucifixion. Jesus comments on this multiple times in Matthew 21-22 when he tells parables about how the servants of the vineyard kill the son and bring the wrath of the vineyard owner who comes and kills them and burns down their city. Because of their actions, God decreed desolations on Jerusalem and the Temple.
Jesus made a strong covenant with many for one week and for half of the week (3.5 years) he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. Jesus began his ministry which lasted 3.5 years. After 3.5 years, he was crucified and that sacrifice put an end to sacrifice and offering (as we read very clearly in Hebrews).
Some translations render this section as follows: ":And one who causes desolation will come upon the pinnacle of the abominable temple, until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city."
The Lord brings judgment on the temple which has become and abomination until the city and its temple is laid waste as promised by the Lord.
That marks the end of the 70 weeks. No talk of another rebuilt temple or Antichrists or thousands of years of gap between the arrival of the Anointed one and this Antichrist. No talk of the Antichrist setting up worship for himself, etc. The vision points to Jesus, the new covenant and the destruction of the temple and the city because the people rejected the Anointed one and offered abominable sacrifices to God in the temple.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
The Bible interprets the Bible. If you look only at one verse to the exclusion of related verses, you are like one of the five blind men examining an elephant.Wormwood said:
And I never knew there was a guy named Darby until I took up debating on message boards to hone my eschatology. I still haven't read him; I don't need to read him. I can read the Bible.
Sorry, no time for line-by-line rebuttal right now. Maybe later.
Hi Kevin,Phoneman777 said:
Nice to know your name, & thanks for sharing. You must not remember that I said I agreed that the Lord was king before His manifestation & Prince (commander) so no problem there. As to `Michael,` well there is never a sign of Deity when we read about him in God`s word. Now interesting that you bring up the JW`s. Just today I went for a walk along the boardwalk by the sea, as I am on holidays & saw some people with religious books - the JW`s. I always like to chat (not debate) as I am interested in their journey. They have been taught certain things & I like to find out how in their heart they think they are changing.....it makes them think especially the younger ones who are not so intrenched (! sp) in that doctrine. Well I took their little book so I can have another chat tomorrow & there lo & behold the 2 things you have been telling me -
1. Timeline of the 70 weeks with Jesus` baptism & last week connected.
2. Michael the Prince is Jesus.
So it seems you knew these things, however I cannot receive those teachings as you would have realised by now. So as we`ve both had our say I will leave it to the Holy Spirit to continue to guide us into all truth. Hope to discuss with you on other topics, bro.
All the best, Kevin,
Marilyn.
Wormwood
Chaps
I agree that the Bible interprets the Bible. However, the passages in Daniel are not just empty containers to be filled with various quotes and prophesies from the New Testament. The passage itself has meaning and the NT often gives us further insight into that meaning...or even draws from that meaning to make additional claims or predictions. The whole point of Daniel is this: In the midst of captivity and Israel's sin, God is faithful and will protect and deliver those who are faithful to him.
However, the end of Daniel makes it clear that being freed from Babylon is not the final deliverance of God. Rather, more nations would come that would take power for many many years after the deliverance from Babylon. Eventually, during the final empire in the dreams and visions (Rome) the Messiah would appear and he would set up an everlasting Kingdom (Jesus and the Church). The purpose of the 70 weeks is to give a more exact timeline for the nations that would follow Babylon (as seen in the dreams of the statue and various animals). God is helping his people look not merely toward the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the kingdom of Israel, but the coming Kingdom of God that would be ushered in by the Messiah. However, the angel shockingly reveals that the Anointed One would be cut off and the people of the Anointed one would have their city destroyed and temple made desolate. That is the point. The Messiah would come and the competing nations, powers and religions would be laid waste by the King of Kings and his eternal kingdom.
Jesus quotes Daniel's prophecy to warn his disciples about the coming judgment on the city for their rejection of him...and to call them to flee the city when its desolation was at hand (which happened in 70 AD).
I dont doubt you havent read Darby. But then again, most Calvinists have not read Calvin either. That is besides the point.
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