DAY OF THE LORD

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Davy

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Well I have seen and heard dozens and dozens of people over my 45 year walk with the Lord come out and say " see you are listening to men instead of God." Why should I agree with yours over the different ones from the dozens and dozens of others who say the same thing you just said about me listening to the doctrines of men. What makes you more right than all these others who asked the Father and Son??????

Because... our Lord Jesus is Who gave us the proper order of events.

And as I already said, the proper order is in His Olivet discourse, the very last sign He gave there being that of His coming and gathering of His Church. That's why the devil hates that Scripture so much and why there's so many doctrines of men devised against it involving confusion of the order of events leading up to His return. Anyone who can think for theirself should be able to understand the event of His cup of wrath being poured out on the wicked as shown happening on the 7th trumpet, 7th vial, and 6th seal, ought to be able to figure out that all 3 of those events are about the same event of His coming. The only reason for anyone to not grasp that is because they aren't bothering to read and understand it as written, and instead are swayed by some other idea, mostly by men's traditions.
 
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Davy

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Well your error is that you don't know th epurpose fo the 7 year tribulation.

And saying I am a heretic is just a pre-pubescent rant on your part!

I didn't say you were a heretic. But if you are following the pre-tribulational rapture theory, then you are following a heresy that is not written in God's Word. There's really no other way to say it. The difference with me is that I can Biblically prove it, whereas you cannot prove a pre-trib rapture from God's Word. And when I showed what Lord Jesus Himself revealed in His Olivet discourse, that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation, then I stand by what my Lord Jesus taught there, and not by what any man on a pre-trib theory says.

So I'm not afraid to say openly, that the pre-trib rapture theory is heresy, and that doctrine goes 180 degrees opposite of what Christ Himself taught.
 
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Davy

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Why is it that sane, rational , intelligent people who know how to read in context and in order, books, newspapers, magazines etc., lost that ability when they pick up the Bible!

Teh events of Joel two after verse 1 are describing teh events of the Day of the Lord! (day meaning time period as Hebrew language shows).

Well you can reject my threads all you want. You are banking your whole eschatology on "The Day of the Lord being one specific day and thus reorder so much of prophetic Scripture to match your personal bias.

Based on the little you have written and that REv. 6 is both pre and post trib etc. YOU are following what you heard, but it is not the Holy Spirit! Even the Watchtower and their crazy eschatology does less harm to SCripture than th elittle you have revealed! I wish you were open to honest debate, but based on so many of your implied ad-hominems, like anyone who is pre trib is a heretic, you are closed. So there is probably no profit in continuing this debate further. Unless you think there is benefit.

You can claim your superb perfection in understanding books, newspapers, magazines, etc., all you want, but when it comes to Bible Scripture, you simply are not following it in regards to what Jesus taught about the time of His coming and gathering of His Church.

Now just thinking on why... you are not actually following the Scripture, (like the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture I have already shown, where Jesus was emphatic that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation), then what might be the reason why you ARE NOT interested in keeping to what Jesus revealed there?

The answer of course does not fool anyone here that does... keep to what Jesus showed there. You simply choose to heed what 'man' says, instead of what Lord Jesus said there. For those who don't remember what He said about the time of His return, here it is once again...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

It's really not difficult to believe what He said there. Won't you believe it?
 

Trekson

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As I see it, Luke 21 in context relates to tribulation saints after the church has gone.

Imo, there is no such thing as "tribulation" saints. There is only the raptured church in Rev. 7:9.
 

Davy

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Imo, there is no such thing as "tribulation" saints. There is only the raptured church in Rev. 7:9.

There's nothing in Revelation 7 about a rapture of the Church. The view John is shown with the "great multitude" is a future-forward view after Jesus has returned, which is why John sees them standing next to Christ and God's throne.

Rev 7:15-17
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV


Those are future Millennium symbols. That is the future view John is being shown about them. None of those things are given out to Christ's elect until the end of this world.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Because... our Lord Jesus is Who gave us the proper order of events.

And as I already said, the proper order is in His Olivet discourse, the very last sign He gave there being that of His coming and gathering of His Church. That's why the devil hates that Scripture so much and why there's so many doctrines of men devised against it involving confusion of the order of events leading up to His return. Anyone who can think for theirself should be able to understand the event of His cup of wrath being poured out on the wicked as shown happening on the 7th trumpet, 7th vial, and 6th seal, ought to be able to figure out that all 3 of those events are about the same event of His coming. The only reason for anyone to not grasp that is because they aren't bothering to read and understand it as written, and instead are swayed by some other idea, mostly by men's traditions.

It is not the church! It is the elect which is most likely the all Israel that is saved and the trib saints from among the gentiles.

The church age ended at the Rapture which is pre-trib. That is why the Church is seen in heaven in REv. 19 before Jesus returns getting ready to wed Jesus! Yours is a typical mistake that many make. When they see the word elect in teh NT they suppose it must mean the church! But context tells us that this is most likely the saved of Isral. and gathering them to enter the millenial kingdom.

But teh 6th seal, seventh trumpet and 7th vial are different events that occur at different times. Only your imagination forces them together. A normal, clear usual reading of SCripture tells anyone who has eyes to see that the 7th seal brings on the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet brings on teh 7 bowls! It is written right there in Revelation. Why change Scripture???

And no knowing there is a chronological progression of the seals, trumpets and bowls are reading Gods Word as He inspired it and not how someone retranslated it! It is you that have to force the first 6 trumpets, and the first six bowls and the 7th seal as events happening BEFORE the sixth seal is opened! YOU have yet to explain that.

I didn't say you were a heretic. But if you are following the pre-tribulational rapture theory, then you are following a heresy that is not written in God's Word. There's really no other way to say it. The difference with me is that I can Biblically prove it, whereas you cannot prove a pre-trib rapture from God's Word. And when I showed what Lord Jesus Himself revealed in His Olivet discourse, that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation, then I stand by what my Lord Jesus taught there, and not by what any man on a pre-trib theory says.

So I'm not afraid to say openly, that the pre-trib rapture theory is heresy, and that doctrine goes 180 degrees opposite of what Christ Himself taught.

Sorry but I am not going to let you squirm off the hook. One who follows a heresy is a heretic! Just like one who lies is a liar!!

No you can not prove a post trib rapture, from Scripture. YOu have not yet by all the eisegetic gymnastics you have used to date! The bible gives no definitive verse that says the rapture will be pre, mid post trib or even post mil. It is taking all the passages together.

Please read this: and see why a pre trib rapture is the only biblical answer.

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf.

A post trib rapture harms the intent and content of SCripture and Gods intent for teh church, tribulation saints and saved Israel for the millenial kingdom.

YOu are required to have the rapture happen , Jesus catches us up and then immediately takes us to Jerusalem! All in the blink of an eye while He is returning. But Scripture says the church is in heaven prior to Jesus return, has undergone the bema judgment, has been given her robes fine and clean and marries Christ IN heaven. The we return to celebrate the wedding supper in the Kingdom! The events Jesus declared in the entire Olivet discourse (parts are in Matthew, Mark and Luke) no one book has the whole discourse init, are not in locked chronological order.

Mt. 24: 1-14 general signs of the church age and a specific sign that the beginning of the birth pangs of the end have begun! (nation against nation etc)

verse 14 the announcement of the kingdom to all the world then Jesus returns!

vse 15 -29 mid point of the trib to the return of Jesus!
30 Jesus returns!
31 the gathering of the surviving saints on earth to prepare for the judgment of the sheep and goats in chapter 25!

Chptr 25: 31-46 Once Jesus returns and other certain events take place (anbother topic for another time) then Jesus gathers all human survivors of earth and separates them. The sheep go into the millenial kingdom on earth and th egoats to the place of torment awaiting the lake of fire.

It is that simple! The church is not mentioned , Just like in Revelation the church is not mentioned once from Chapter 4-19! Why? becuae we are not destined for this wrath. And the wrath is the 7 year tribulation!
 

Ronald Nolette

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You can claim your superb perfection in understanding books, newspapers, magazines, etc., all you want, but when it comes to Bible Scripture, you simply are not following it in regards to what Jesus taught about the time of His coming and gathering of His Church.

Now just thinking on why... you are not actually following the Scripture, (like the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture I have already shown, where Jesus was emphatic that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation), then what might be the reason why you ARE NOT interested in keeping to what Jesus revealed there?

The answer of course does not fool anyone here that does... keep to what Jesus showed there. You simply choose to heed what 'man' says, instead of what Lord Jesus said there. For those who don't remember what He said about the time of His return, here it is once again...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

It's really not difficult to believe what He said there. Won't you believe it?

Well you are long on ad-hominems but short os exegetical facts.

I am actually following the Scripture. I just take it as a whole and compare Scripture with Scripture and understand the difference between the church, Israel and letting the context of the passage determine who is the elect being referred to.

Sorry but no matter how much you want to, you cannot go through the 7 year tribulation if you are saved. And if you miss the rapture, that means you are not saved and will most likely be one of the ones God sends a strong delusion to to believe a lie!

I love the Olivet Discourse. Taught on it for decades!

It is you who throw out your brain when you read Scripture! If you can declare the sixth seal is the same as the 7th trumpet and 7th vial, then you have hung up your intellect on a hook when you read eschatology from Gods Word! Why is that?

See because the words sun dark and moon not give her light you demand from God that it means the Joel passage where the sun becomes back and the moon blood red! they are similar but still different.

We have Matt. 24 above. Here is Joel 2

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

YOU give no time to come to pass so that people can call upon the name of the Lord! But when Jesus returns there is no more offers of salvation! One either took the mark and is lost forever or refused the mark and is saved.

Here is rev. 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Now a blood moon is a moon that sheds her light- its light is deep red like blood. IN 2017 I believe we had four of them in one year!

But when Jesus comes back in Matt 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The moon give no light! It is important to see the differences in passages to see if they are the same. Joel and rev. 6 are the same, matt. 24 is different.

then the difference between the rapture and the gathering of the elect right at Jesus return is this:

The rapture is for saved saints only! The gathering in MAtt. 25 has saved and lost and people have to wait to find out if they are qualified to enter the millennia kingdom!

That is why your explanation fails the test of Reading SCripture as written. With God close enough is not good enough!
 

Keraz

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It is not the church! It is the elect which is most likely the all Israel that is saved and the trib saints from among the gentiles.
This would be the most confused and wrong statement yet!

Revelation 7:1-14 is all about God's faithful people in the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed all that area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
They are every Christian, from every race, nation and language, who have stood firm in their trust in the Lord thru the terrible Day of His fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal event. They establish the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

Jesus does reveal Himself to them; 2 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 14:1
Here is Joel 2

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
WE Christians are the people the Lord will deliver and protect on His Day of wrath. A Day of cosmic and dramatic earthly happenings.
The sun and moon things can be easily explained as Isaiah 30:26 describes; a Coronal Mass Ejection; explosion on the suns surface, which will literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that Day.
 

Trekson

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There's nothing in Revelation 7 about a rapture of the Church. The view John is shown with the "great multitude" is a future-forward view after Jesus has returned, which is why John sees them standing next to Christ and God's throne.

Rev 7:15-17
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV


Those are future Millennium symbols. That is the future view John is being shown about them. None of those things are given out to Christ's elect until the end of this world.

You are entitled to your opinion but the implication of vs. 9 is that they weren't there and then Lo they were and seeing as how the GT is Satan's wrath upon the church, Rev. 12:17, Matt. 24:21-22 and it's most likely that the GT starts about the 4th seal, some of the results are shown in the 5th seal it makes a very sound theory not easily shaken.
 

Keraz

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Seems clear to me, anyway.
The difference between the Church and the Jewish State of Israel, is the Church is an organization of Christian people from every tribe, race and language, whereas the nation of Israel is an entity made up from many ethnicities, who have called themselves Israel.

Jewish Israel is in the holy Land, but in apostasy and rejection of Jesus. They face Judgment/punishment and only a remnant will survive.
The faithful Christian peoples will migrate to and occupy all of the holy Land, which the Lord will send rain and regenerate for His people.
Isaiah 49:8-11 The Lord says; In the time of My favor, on the Day of Deliverance, I will come to your aid, you are My people; destined to be a light to the nations and to restore the Land. Go free now and in the Land, you will find food and water in plenty. It will not be too hot when the one who loves you will guide you along highways. My people, coming from all parts of the world, will shout for joy as they enter the Land. For the Lord has comforted His people in their distress.
These verses describe a deliverance of ‘those who fear the Lord’. As ‘He looks down from on high and sets free the exiles’, so this must occur before the Return of Jesus. ‘My people, destined to be a light to the nations and to restore the Land’. Matthew 5:14-16

This is the second Exodus – ‘His people, coming from all parts of the world’, every faithful Christian will live in the new country of Beulah in peace and security. Isaiah 62:1-5 John sees them all there in Revelation 7:9
 

Davy

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It is not the church! It is the elect which is most likely the all Israel that is saved and the trib saints from among the gentiles.

Uh, what?
Those Lord Jesus is speaking to in His Olivet discourse ARE His Church, even the foundation of His Church according to Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2. And those SIGNS He gave there are the SIGNS in His Revelation. So will you also try to say His Revelation is not for His Church??

Clearly, you are listening to and heeding the doctrines of men, and not staying in The Word of God as written. If you were, then you would know beyond all doubt that Christ's Olivet discourse was ESPECIALLY written for those in Christ at the very end of this world.
 

Davy

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Well you are long on ad-hominems but short os exegetical facts.

I am actually following the Scripture. I just take it as a whole and compare Scripture with Scripture and understand the difference between the church, Israel and letting the context of the passage determine who is the elect being referred to.

You are not... following what Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, even as you have already suggested it wasn't even written for those in Christ. So what you say is not really you speaking, nor from Christ, but that from another spirit.
 

Davy

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You are entitled to your opinion but the implication of vs. 9 is that they weren't there and then Lo they were and seeing as how the GT is Satan's wrath upon the church, Rev. 12:17, Matt. 24:21-22 and it's most likely that the GT starts about the 4th seal, some of the results are shown in the 5th seal it makes a very sound theory not easily shaken.

It's not my opinion. It's what the Scripture reveals that proves John was given a vision of a future forward look into Christ's future Millennium reign...

Rev 7:13-15
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

KJV

The time when the saints are at the throne is after Christ's return. That is when they also serve Him day and night in His temple, which is pointing directly to the Millennial temple of Ezekiel 40 forward. It is this following timing...

Rev 14:1-5
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
KJV


Some might think those are there already, which is a false teaching of men, because that above phrase, "a Lamb stood on the mount Sion" is not in Heaven. It's on earth when Jesus returns, per Zechariah 14 and Psalms 2. It means Jerusalem on earth after His return.

Here is another NT Scripture how we know those above are not there already. Paul is speaking of the OT saints...

Heb 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

KJV

That means the rewards by Christ are not handed out to His until His return, as also shown on the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 22:12.
 

Randy Kluth

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Luke 21:32-36 (KJV)
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Im a bit confounded. With all thats to take place before the Day of the Lord how can you not see it coming? Am i reading this wrong? Just what is a "snare"? Not lookin to argue. Lookin for answers

I'm a little late on this thread. However, this is one of my favorite subjects. It's been an obsession of mine for many years, and at long last I have a measure of peace about it. My big problem is that I failed to embrace a more "Preterist"-like view of the Olivet Discourse. I'm not a Preterist, but I do believe that Jesus' focus was on the historical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. Most of the signs Jesus listed were signs intended to prepare Jesus' Disciples for the judgment about to befall Israel. After all, this Address was given while the Law was still in effect, and only national Israel represented "God's People."

So, this prophecy was all about Israel, and about how the Christians would be divided away from their unbelieving Jewish brethren. The vast majority of Jews would follow false prophecy and oppose Christianity. Their wickedness would achieve a fever pitch, and result in national destruction, just as had happened during the Assyrian and Babylonian judgments. The Olivet Discourse is, in fact, very much like Jeremiah's prediction of the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BC.

Jesus was also asked how this judgment fits into the prophecy of "Israel's Hope," the Messianic Kingdom? Jesus' reply indicates that his focus is to be on how we live today, rather than prognosticate about the future. His Kingdom will come, but it is already among us in the form of God's spiritual word. We are to prepare for God's Kingdom today, so that we are not judged tomorrow.

The "generation" Jesus spoke of, therefore, was not some future generation that would see the rebirth of the State of Israel. Rather, he spoke of his own wicked generation, who would crucify him and persecute Christians. They would see an imminent judgment when the Romans march in--the Abomination of Desolation--to bring an age-long judgment to the unbelieving Jewish People.

The "blossoming of the fig tree" referred to the initial birth pains of the coming judgment. Only it represented an Israel that should've been producing new leaves as well as good fruit. Instead, it failed to produce fruit as a nation, and only produced the small Christian remnant among them. It should've been a hopeful time, but at that time it plainly produced no fruit as a nation. The Hope of Israel has been put off for many, many generations, while God has added to His People the Gentile nations.

Since the Gentile nations that have become Christian are now turning back to paganism, just like ancient Israel did, we can expect the same judgment that ancient Israel faced. We will face Armageddon, and before that all kinds of birth pains of the coming Kingdom, involving a terrible apostasy from Christianity in the world. We are seeing it now.
 

Ronald Nolette

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This would be the most confused and wrong statement yet!

Revelation 7:1-14 is all about God's faithful people in the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed all that area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
They are every Christian, from every race, nation and language, who have stood firm in their trust in the Lord thru the terrible Day of His fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal event. They establish the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

Jesus does reveal Himself to them; 2 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 14:1

Wrong be brother! You say it yourself. It is Gods faithful people. You just cannot accept that the Rapture happens prior to the tribulation and the church ends there. We have been down this road before. You have to allegorize and twist times in SCriptures to show why the church does not go to heaven to be judged and wed to Jesus when the Bible says it does! If I remember from the other thread, you have them sleeping with God waking them up from time to time with no support other than your say so!

The faithful are the tribulation saints! Who else but the survivors of the tribulation will enter the earthly millenial kingdom and repopulate the earth? The NT clearly shows that is not the destiny of the church during the earthly kingdom of Jesus.

WE Christians are the people the Lord will deliver and protect on His Day of wrath. A Day of cosmic and dramatic earthly happenings.
The sun and moon things can be easily explained as Isaiah 30:26 describes; a Coronal Mass Ejection; explosion on the suns surface, which will literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that Day.

that is not what JOel nor Isaih nor Zechariah nor Matthew declare. That is what an allegorical retranslation of the Word says.

And as far as the sun and moon? it could be a CME, we will have to wait to see for sure. I have grown so weary of all the guessing of what and how the events of the trumpets and bowls will happen or what causes them. there are too many books by believers doing nothing but guessing.
 

Keraz

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Wrong be brother! You say it yourself. It is Gods faithful people. You just cannot accept that the Rapture happens prior to the tribulation and the church ends there
Explain then: Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7.
They both say how the Lord's holy people will be conquered by the Anti-Christ.
Do not think those people must be newly converted people, as very few, if any people will accept Jesus at that time. Revelation 13:3-4

I cannot accept a pre-trib 'rapture', as the Bible never prophesies it.
 
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Trekson

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It's not my opinion. It's what the Scripture reveals that proves John was given a vision of a future forward look into Christ's future Millennium reign...

Rev 7:13-15
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

KJV

The time when the saints are at the throne is after Christ's return. That is when they also serve Him day and night in His temple, which is pointing directly to the Millennial temple of Ezekiel 40 forward. It is this following timing...

Rev 14:1-5
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
KJV


Some might think those are there already, which is a false teaching of men, because that above phrase, "a Lamb stood on the mount Sion" is not in Heaven. It's on earth when Jesus returns, per Zechariah 14 and Psalms 2. It means Jerusalem on earth after His return.

Here is another NT Scripture how we know those above are not there already. Paul is speaking of the OT saints...

Heb 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

KJV

That means the rewards by Christ are not handed out to His until His return, as also shown on the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 22:12.

I agree that the 144,000 are on earth and when Christ is on Mt Zion that is the physical part of His return, however, the 144,000 Israelis are not those of the church that came out of the great trib. Two different groups, two different destinies. The 144,000 on earth, the uncountable group of people that arrive in heaven are the raptured church and that is where we will be. Everything that is holy upon the earth is just a replica of what already exists in heaven so there has always been a temple and a throne room in heaven. I've never heard anyone say that they believe the 144,000 are already in heaven. For now only our souls go to heaven, as Paul says, "to be absent from the body is to be present w/ the Lord". The fifth seal is an example that shows the souls of the Great Trib martyr's (some of the church) under the throne "in heaven", waiting for the wrath of the Lamb to begin. They know that the seals are NOT part of God's wrath and that it will begin after the signs of the 6th seal.
 
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