DAY OF THE LORD

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Explain then: Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7.
They both say how the Lord's holy people will be conquered by the Anti-Christ.
Do not think those people must be newly converted people, as very few, if any people will accept Jesus at that time. Revelation 13:3-4

I cannot accept a pre-trib 'rapture', as the Bible never prophesies it.

Well I will encourage you yet again to invest 1/2 hour to read this manuscript as to why the rapture can only be pre trib.

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

The Bible does not declare a time frame for the rapture, other than it will come quietly as a thief. But when one learns the reasons for the tribulation and the names it is called in Scripture especially the many names it is called in the OT then one learns why the church is removed.

Yes the holy people are terrorized by the antichrist. Yes the antichrist does seek destruction of the tribulation saints, but he also goes and makes war with the faithful Jews as declared in REv. 12.

YOU need to go to the minor prophets and see that teh tribulation period os mostly about teh Jewish nation and God purging the 2/3 out of her so the 1/3 will be saved, call upon the name of the Lord and cause Jesus to return as He said this is what it would take for Him to come back.

Satan goes on a Jewish genocide, for he knows if he can kill all Jews before they get saved (which he can't) then there will be no Jews left to call upon the name of the Lord and Jesus would not return. This is why in REv. 12 we see God protectiong Israel as He warned in Matt. 24.
 

BOWnQUIVER

Active Member
Jul 7, 2020
237
60
28
73
catskills
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible does not declare a time frame for the rapture, other than it will come quietly as a thief.

Sure it does. When is the LAST trumpet to be blown? Its a MYSTERY!

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet!

REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.

Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound. Its also the LAST one to be heard. Its also AFTER the trib period

REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible

REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.

REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom, right here on Gods green earth
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree that the 144,000 are on earth and when Christ is on Mt Zion that is the physical part of His return, however, the 144,000 Israelis are not those of the church that came out of the great trib. Two different groups, two different destinies. The 144,000 on earth, the uncountable group of people that arrive in heaven are the raptured church and that is where we will be. Everything that is holy upon the earth is just a replica of what already exists in heaven so there has always been a temple and a throne room in heaven. I've never heard anyone say that they believe the 144,000 are already in heaven. For now only our souls go to heaven, as Paul says, "to be absent from the body is to be present w/ the Lord". The fifth seal is an example that shows the souls of the Great Trib martyr's (some of the church) under the throne "in heaven", waiting for the wrath of the Lamb to begin. They know that the seals are NOT part of God's wrath and that it will begin after the signs of the 6th seal.

144,000 are all Israelites, but not all Jews, that's the difference. They are not all Jews because the ten northern tribes of Israel were not known as Jews. The ten tribes were removed first out of the land leaving only the southern kingdom of Judah in the south, and it's in the south who used the title of Jew, including the strangers with them. Those today trying to put that label on the ten tribes aren't keeping to what's written in God's Word in the Old Testament about the two separate houses of God's people, nor to history.

Rev.7:
1. Jews - tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi
2. Israelites - ten tribes (lost today) - Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph
(Dan is left out; Joseph is put for Ephraim).

The Hosea prophecy God gave to the ten tribes is about their scattering, the fulfillment of His warnings of Deut.4 & 28 about being scattered among the Gentiles and no longer His people. In Jeremiah 3:8, God said He gave Israel (put for the ten tribes there) a bill of divorce. In Hosea He called them, Lo Ami, meaning 'not My people'. But then in Romans 9, Apostle Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea to Roman Gentile Christians, which is about the gathering of the ten tribes of Israel in final, and their being called the sons of the living God. My point?

... probably the majority of the early western Christian Church is made up of Israelites of the ten lost tribes. And a good portion of Jews also are included.

So HOW in the world is it that Apostle Paul preached there is no difference between Gentile and Jew in Christ's Church? What the false Pre-tribulationist doctrine of Dispensationalism says, which Darby also created, is that the children of Israel have a separate Salvation than the Gentile believers do. God's Word does not teach any such thing. Christ Jesus is King of Israel and Head of His Church which is a many-membered body of believers, what Apostle Paul called the "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2.

So who would want to divide God's people, who represent the sons of the living God, Christ's Church? Certainly not Christ nor any of His Apostles. Thus those in Christ should 'mark' those men trying to divide believers on Christ from each other.

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

Hos 1:10-11
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people', there it shall be said unto them, "Ye are the sons of the living God."
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
KJV
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keraz

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Well I will encourage you yet again to invest 1/2 hour to read this manuscript as to why the rapture can only be pre trib.
I have invested nearly a lifetime to careful study of the Bible and esp the Prophetic Word and I simply do not see any scripture that says God will take His people to live in heaven.
I reject any 'rapture', that is not our destiny. Jesus said: Go out to all the nations...spread the Gospel and baptize them....Matthew 28:19 Has He rescinded this Commission yet?
As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom, right here on Gods green earth
Quite correct, excepting for the 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 'Last Trumpet'.
That 'Final Trumpet call', will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, to call up everyone who has ever lived to stand before God. Proved by how is is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That 'Final Trumpet call', will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, to call up everyone who has ever lives to stand before God. Proved by how is is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

Of course you know I disagree with that above idea. The 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 is the "last trump" which Apostle Paul was teaching in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter. The 7th is the final one.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
144,000 are all Israelites, but not all Jews, that's the difference. They are not all Jews because the ten northern tribes of Israel were not known as Jews. The ten tribes were removed first out of the land leaving only the southern kingdom of Judah in the south, and it's in the south who used the title of Jew, including the strangers with them. Those today trying to put that label on the ten tribes aren't keeping to what's written in God's Word in the Old Testament about the two separate houses of God's people, nor to history.

Rev.7:
1. Jews - tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi
2. Israelites - ten tribes (lost today) - Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph
(Dan is left out; Joseph is put for Ephraim).

The Hosea prophecy God gave to the ten tribes is about their scattering, the fulfillment of His warnings of Deut.4 & 28 about being scattered among the Gentiles and no longer His people. In Jeremiah 3:8, God said He gave Israel (put for the ten tribes there) a bill of divorce. In Hosea He called them, Lo Ami, meaning 'not My people'. But then in Romans 9, Apostle Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea to Roman Gentile Christians, which is about the gathering of the ten tribes of Israel in final, and their being called the sons of the living God. My point?

... probably the majority of the early western Christian Church is made up of Israelites of the ten lost tribes. And a good portion of Jews also are included.

So HOW in the world is it that Apostle Paul preached there is no difference between Gentile and Jew in Christ's Church? What the false Pre-tribulationist doctrine of Dispensationalism says, which Darby also created, is that the children of Israel have a separate Salvation than the Gentile believers do. God's Word does not teach any such thing. Christ Jesus is King of Israel and Head of His Church which is a many-membered body of believers, what Apostle Paul called the "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2.

So who would want to divide God's people, who represent the sons of the living God, Christ's Church? Certainly not Christ nor any of His Apostles. Thus those in Christ should 'mark' those men trying to divide believers on Christ from each other.

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

Hos 1:10-11
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people', there it shall be said unto them, "Ye are the sons of the living God."
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
KJV


My post said Israeli's (it didn't mention Jews) Rev. 7 tells us exactly what tribes they are from. Other than that, I don't get the point you're trying to make.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My post said Israeli's (it didn't mention Jews) Rev. 7 tells us exactly what tribes they are from. Other than that, I don't get the point you're trying to make.

My point from Scripture, and history of the Christian Church is that the majority of Israelites have become the Christian Church after The Gospel was rejected by the majority of Jews in Jerusalem.

Most people, and certainly not the majority of Jews, do not realize this yet. But everyone will when Jesus returns, as this is something that is to be revealed then even to the lost ten tribes who lost their heritage as part of Israel generations ago and have been living as Gentiles.

So in essence, lost Israel probably made up the majority of the early Christian Church scattered to the west. This was actually Bible prophecy in Genesis 35 and 48 that Jacob's seed was to become "a company of nations" which was ultimately about the prophecy that Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations"...

Gen 48:17-20
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
KJV


Joseph's two sons, Manasseh was to become a great people, but his younger brother was to become a multitude of nations.

And Jacob in prayer asked that his name (Israel) be named upon the two lads...

Gen 48:16
16 The Angel Which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

KJV

So it is referring to ISRAELITE nations in the above, not Gentile nations. But the nation of Israel has only ever been but ONE nation, not a multitude of nations.

Can you not understand this?
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sure it does. When is the LAST trumpet to be blown? Its a MYSTERY!

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet!

REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.

Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound. Its also the LAST one to be heard. Its also AFTER the trib period

REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible

REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.

REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom, right here on Gods green earth

Well you have a real problem with the Last Trunp!

To John was given the revelation of the seven trumpets, not Paul! John was given the revelation of the 7 trumpets over 45 years AFTER Paul wrote about the Last Trump in Corinthians! So neither Paul nor the Corinthians knew of Johns 7 trumpets at all! for it had no t yet been revealed!

But there is a LAST TRUMMP that both Paul and Jewish converts on Corinth and those gentiles who had any knowledge of Jewish festivals would have excellent knowledge of!

We know that all 7 festivals God commanded Israel were types and shadows of realities to come. I will spare us all the space of listing thema nd showing who or when those shadows were literally fuflilled. Most literal heremenutic students know the Feast of Trumpets is a shadow of the Rapture. Let me explain.

The Feast of Trumpets is the first of the fall festivals and covers three days. It is also called Rosh Shoshanah or the Jewish New Year. It was part of teh ten days of awe. After the feast there was seven days to the day of atonement.

During this festival there were three distinct series of shofar or trumpet blasts. one set of ninety soundings one set of nine soundings broken up into triads of staccato blasts., Then on the end of the festival, the trumpeter would take as much air as possible and give th efinal sounding which was a long loud continuous blast for as long as He could. This was known as the Tekiah Gedolah in Hebrew which translated is the great trump or the last trump!

Once again Paul had no concept of Johns seven trumpets. That would take 45 years for God to reveal it for mankind! But there was a last trump called the last trump that Paul, Jewish believers and many gentiles who were familiar with Jewish festivals would automatically know of- the last trump of the feast of Trumpets!

Even the bible implies a future rapture by what Israel was commanded to do when they heard a long trumpet blast!

When the ram's horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain. So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder (Exodus 19:13b, 16-19).

Israel was to go up to teh mountain when they heard and Paul tells us we shall go up when we hear that last trump!
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Israel was to go up to the mountain when they heard and Paul tells us we shall go up when we hear that last trump!
Correct. "The last trump" (also called "the trump of God") has absolutely no connection to the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal. The first is for salvation, the second is for damnation. Yet people continue to stumble over this simple fact.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have invested nearly a lifetime to careful study of the Bible and esp the Prophetic Word and I simply do not see any scripture that says God will take His people to live in heaven.
I reject any 'rapture', that is not our destiny. Jesus said: Go out to all the nations...spread the Gospel and baptize them....Matthew 28:19 Has He rescinded this Commission yet?

Quite correct, excepting for the 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 'Last Trumpet'.
That 'Final Trumpet call', will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, to call up everyone who has ever lived to stand before God. Proved by how is is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

Well it is too bad you refuse to read that manuscript.

But let us look at one verse that should settle the issue of the people of God living in heaven.

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1. did Jesus just go into the first heaven and stop there and is preparing us a place in teh first heaven?
2. Did Jesus go into the 2nd heaven (what we call outer space) and is preparing us a place in space?
3. Or did Jesus go to the 3rd heaven, the New Jerusalem, where His and our Father is and is preparing a place for us there?

As for a pre trib rapture?

Two verses should settle that forever as well.

Rev. 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Now many say this means that Christians will be kept safe during all seven years of the tribulation! but that is wrong because from many many many prophetic passages God clearly shows that saints in the tribulation period are slaughtered by the Antichrist and his hordes. So either the bible is in conflict with itself which we know cannot be, or that this verse means what its primary meaning shows- the church (represented by Philadelphia) is kept out of the Tribulation!

The preposition "from" is "ek which is: out of! so coupled with "Keep" "tereo" it means to keep one out of!

Now another

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This cannot be speaking of teh lake of fire for Paul taught extensively on eternal security.

Also the lake of fire is never referred anywhere as the Wrath of God! But teh Tribulation or time of Jacobs trouble is referred to Gods Wrath poured out multiple times.

So the church is to be delivered from the tribulation by being taken out of it as the Word says. Other than by retranslating the common normal meaning of Scripture and giving them some mystical allegorical interpretation can one come up with any conclusion.

I also have spent over 45 years studying the word and looking at mens opinions of all phases of eschatology!

It is hard when we have developed a specific theology around a subject to trash it when we find we are wrong! But I have changed my mind many times over 45 years as Men of God who proved faithful handlers of the Word showed my by SCripture why I was lacking or in error. It is hard but humility before God requires us to do so.

As for a trumpet at the white throne judgment- that is you adding a trumpet that Scripture doesn't declare is there! that is an unfounded supposition like your God waking up the martyrs from time to time so they can cry out.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Correct. "The last trump" (also called "the trump of God") has absolutely no connection to the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal. The first is for salvation, the second is for damnation. Yet people continue to stumble over this simple fact.

Well it is not a very common teaching. Especially today when doctrine has fallen from far too many pulpits and we are stuck with a never ending series of seeker-sensitive messages which are great for unbelievers and brand new believers, but so nothing to help mature the saints.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My point from Scripture, and history of the Christian Church is that the majority of Israelites have become the Christian Church after The Gospel was rejected by the majority of Jews in Jerusalem.

Most people, and certainly not the majority of Jews, do not realize this yet. But everyone will when Jesus returns, as this is something that is to be revealed then even to the lost ten tribes who lost their heritage as part of Israel generations ago and have been living as Gentiles.

So in essence, lost Israel probably made up the majority of the early Christian Church scattered to the west. This was actually Bible prophecy in Genesis 35 and 48 that Jacob's seed was to become "a company of nations" which was ultimately about the prophecy that Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations"...

Gen 48:17-20
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
KJV


Joseph's two sons, Manasseh was to become a great people, but his younger brother was to become a multitude of nations.

And Jacob in prayer asked that his name (Israel) be named upon the two lads...

Gen 48:16
16 The Angel Which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

KJV

So it is referring to ISRAELITE nations in the above, not Gentile nations. But the nation of Israel has only ever been but ONE nation, not a multitude of nations.

Can you not understand this?

I think I get what you're trying to say however I don't believe the ten lost tribes make up most of the gentile population. There is only one way to Christ even if you're an Israeli. there is no separate rule book for them. The 144,000 will be born again blood-washed believers who just happen to be Israeli. Their destiny is just different than ours.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Well it is too bad you refuse to read that manuscript.
I read the Bible, the difference from you is that I understand the Prophetic Word. The logical and literal Plan of God for these end times.
What is it that God desires from His people? We Christians are told to spread the Gospel until the Lord Returns. Matthew 28:19-20
Going to live in heaven is not an option and is simply impossible for we humans. That idea is taught by the 'wolves' among the flock.

I say again; your 'proof verses' of a 'rapture', do NOT say our destiny is to go to heaven. We are gathered to where He is, on earth. We are protected thru all that must happen before Jesus Returns. 1 Peter 4:12, 2 Peter 2:9
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I think I get what you're trying to say however I don't believe the ten lost tribes make up most of the gentile population. There is only one way to Christ even if you're an Israeli. there is no separate rule book for them. The 144,000 will be born again blood-washed believers who just happen to be Israeli. Their destiny is just different than ours.
You have just not read or understood the many prophesies that tell of the virtual demise of the Israelis; the Jewish State of Israel. Isaiah 22:1-14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zechariah 1:1-18, Romans 9:27, +

But the Israelites of God, are the Christian peoples from every tribe of Israel, every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
We Christians are far from the bulk of the worlds population, many who call themselves 'Christian' are not. Only those born again in Jesus are the true People of God. It is God's secret as to who is an actual descendant of Jacob, He alone knows; Amos 9:8-9

The apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews face Judgment / punishment on the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Amos 2:4-5
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have just not read or understood the many prophesies that tell of the virtual demise of the Israelis; the Jewish State of Israel. Isaiah 22:1-14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zechariah 1:1-18, Romans 9:27, +

But the Israelites of God, are the Christian peoples from every tribe of Israel, every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
We Christians are far from the bulk of the worlds population, many who call themselves 'Christian' are not. Only those born again in Jesus are the true People of God. It is God's secret as to who is an actual descendant of Jacob, He alone knows; Amos 9:8-9

The apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews face Judgment / punishment on the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Amos 2:4-5

The church doesn't replace Israel and yes unrepentant Israelis will face the same eternal judgment as unbelieving gentiles. Yes, they as well as the rest of the world will undergo his wrath, however, at the end of Amos there is a promise of restoration for Israel as there is in all the prophecies condemning them. The restoration will start w/ the 144,000 in the millennium.
 

BOWnQUIVER

Active Member
Jul 7, 2020
237
60
28
73
catskills
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Correct. "The last trump" (also called "the trump of God") has absolutely no connection to the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal. The first is for salvation, the second is for damnation. Yet people continue to stumble over this simple fact.

Stumble......

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet! Last means LAST. So...lets go look at the very LAST trumpet to be blown in the bible.

REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.

Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound. Its also the LAST one to be heard. Its also AFTER the trib period

REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible

Dont stumble. Believe the Word
 

BOWnQUIVER

Active Member
Jul 7, 2020
237
60
28
73
catskills
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Imo, there is no such thing as "tribulation" saints. There is only the raptured church in Rev. 7:9.

Lets look at the 4 winds of Rev7

REV.7 [1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the FOUR WINDS of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 4 winds blow – A great multitude {the great army of Ezek.37 v 10}

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

The 4 winds blow – The dead in Christ rise 1st {1Cor.15} {Zeke 37v12} – They are brought to Israel { Zeke37v12} and not to heaven as the Rapturist claim – A great army -

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 4 winds blow – God gathers His elect {in the twinkling of an eye} and after the tribulation

So now we know that this so called "rapture" takes place after the tribulation period and their going to Israel and not heaven as the Rapturist claim
 
Last edited:

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,696
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I read the Bible, the difference from you is that I understand the Prophetic Word. The logical and literal Plan of God for these end times.
What is it that God desires from His people? We Christians are told to spread the Gospel until the Lord Returns. Matthew 28:19-20
Going to live in heaven is not an option and is simply impossible for we humans. That idea is taught by the 'wolves' among the flock.

I say again; your 'proof verses' of a 'rapture', do NOT say our destiny is to go to heaven. We are gathered to where He is, on earth. We are protected thru all that must happen before Jesus Returns. 1 Peter 4:12, 2 Peter 2:9

Well let us look.

The Word according to Keraz:

"Going to live in heaven is not an option and is simply impossible for we humans. That idea is taught by the 'wolves' among the flock."

The Word according to Jesus:

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So we must conclude that you are declaring Jesus to be the chief wolf of the wolf pack because without retranslating His Words- He went to heaven at His ascension and is currently preparing a place for us.

Unless you alsop accept Watchtower doctrine and He is invisibly and secretly here on earth now preparing a place for believers! But I do not think you have nay proof like they also don't!

YOu can say all you want- but the Bible disagrees with your re-interpretation. The antichrist seeks to change the times and laws, you seek to change the grammar and understanding of words!

YOu can say I have no understanding and call me a wolf among the flock all you wish, but I rest in teh comfortable hands of Jesus and His Word as is written and not mystically retranslated as you!
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Well let us look.

The Word according to Keraz:

"Going to live in heaven is not an option and is simply impossible for we humans. That idea is taught by the 'wolves' among the flock."

The Word according to Jesus:

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So we must conclude that you are declaring Jesus to be the chief wolf of the wolf pack because without retranslating His Words- He went to heaven at His ascension and is currently preparing a place for us.

Unless you alsop accept Watchtower doctrine and He is invisibly and secretly here on earth now preparing a place for believers! But I do not think you have nay proof like they also don't!

YOu can say all you want- but the Bible disagrees with your re-interpretation. The antichrist seeks to change the times and laws, you seek to change the grammar and understanding of words!

YOu can say I have no understanding and call me a wolf among the flock all you wish, but I rest in teh comfortable hands of Jesus and His Word as is written and not mystically retranslated as you!
Ronald; Please set out for me your understanding of John 14:1-3.
Where do we go and where will the place prepared be? Use supporting scripture, not assumptions or other teachings.