DAY OF THE LORD

[Trekson]

Lets look at the 4 winds of Rev7

REV.7 [1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the FOUR WINDS of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 4 winds blow – A great multitude {the great army of Ezek.37 v 10}

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

The 4 winds blow – The dead in Christ rise 1st {1Cor.15} {Zeke 37v12} – They are brought to Israel { Zeke37v12} and not to heaven as the Rapturist claim – A great army -

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 4 winds blow – God gathers His elect {in the twinkling of an eye} and after the tribulation

So now we know that this so called "rapture" takes place after the tribulation period and their going to Israel and not heaven as the Rapturist claim

I was just having a similar discussion w/ someone else. Every mention of the "four winds" are not necessarily connected. It's just another way to say, from the corners of the earth, from every direction (the wind blows), the face of the earth, etc. Could it have a prophetic meaning? I suppose but it's also likely it's just a simple expression. Regarding EZ. 37, that wouldn't be the church that would be the OT saints. Israel for the earth, the church for heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

What makes the Pre-tribulationalist's idea of a rapture un-Biblical isn't about the concept of a rapture. It's about their idea of a rapture occurring Prior to the tribulation that makes their pre-trib theory wrong.

The word 'rapture' they use all the time actually comes from the Latin translation of the Greek word harpazo. In the KJV Bible, harpazo is rendered as "caught up" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). I prefer to use "caught up" because that's what the KJV uses, and because of how the pre-trib doctors have abused the word rapture.

The church is caught up when the Lamb appears in the 6th seal. The 7th seal cannot be opened until the church is presented to God as complete and glorified. The church is comprised of all the names found in the Lamb's book of life. Before the book can be opened the church is glorified. Names can not be added to the book of life. Show me one verse that states names are added. After the 7th seal is opened, names are going to be removed. There are still people on the earth. All the goats will have their names removed. The final harvest, this so called trib period is Jesus separating the sheep from the goats. This is carried out in the sounding of the trumpets. This is the fulfillment of the parables placed in the Gospels during the first earthly ministry of Christ.

After the 6th Trumpet, there are 7 Thunders to sound to gather the wheat out of the tares. Daniel's 70th week, has the first 3.5 years of Jesus earthly ministry in the 1st century. Very soon Jesus Christ as the Lamb will finish the second half of His earthly ministry, along with 144K sealed disciples. This ministry starts at the 6th seal and goes through the Trumpets and Thunders. Then the triumphant week of Celebration begins. There are not two Second Comings.

The Second Coming is at the 6th seal. The final week of Celebration will usher in the Day of the Lord: The final 1000 years. This is the Sabbath of creation week. Humans as descendants of Adam had to work 6 millenia. Exodus 20, 6 days shalt thou labor, and the 7th is to be Remembered and set apart for the Lord, Adonai God. Creation week in Genesis 1-2 prophecied the Day of the Lord. Moses had to redo the command, but God on Mt. Sinai prophecied the Day of the Lord. We have the witness prior to sin. We have the witness given by God as part of the Law. The Judaizers concentrated on the "not working part". The command was to work 6 days. "Thou shalt" is the doing part of the Law. Remembering is the action of the mind, not the "doing part". The over emphasis of not doing has prevented humans from actually Remembering. We do not even know what we are to Remember!!!

God set apart 1000 perfect years, before sin. Now at the end of sin, God has set apart 1000 years for Christ to rule on the earth. That is the message of Revelation. Not the troublesome parts and judgments that all emphasize in theology. All this trying to figure out timing and rearranging Revelation to "make things fit" was never God's intention of Revelation.

Revelation 20 is the main point. All the other chapters are the minor points leading to Chapter 20. The church is to be about the great commission, and she will be ready when the 6th seal is opened. All the tribulation parts is the cares of this world being ripped away as the church leaves this sinful flesh and blood on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

You can claim your superb perfection in understanding books, newspapers, magazines, etc., all you want, but when it comes to Bible Scripture, you simply are not following it in regards to what Jesus taught about the time of His coming and gathering of His Church.

Now just thinking on why... you are not actually following the Scripture, (like the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture I have already shown, where Jesus was emphatic that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation), then what might be the reason why you ARE NOT interested in keeping to what Jesus revealed there?

The answer of course does not fool anyone here that does... keep to what Jesus showed there. You simply choose to heed what 'man' says, instead of what Lord Jesus said there. For those who don't remember what He said about the time of His return, here it is once again...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

It's really not difficult to believe what He said there. Won't you believe it?

What is the 4th seal and when? Is that enough tribulation in your tribulation meter?

If you say the 4th seal has been opened, then why is it even of import in the context of any of the trumpets or thunders? John wrote the seals as being opened in the same time and frame similiar to the trumpets. When in a few weeks has humans been killed by wild animals at the same time as war, and starvation, and a pandemic? 100 years ago, it got close. But no mention of wild animals. When even nature rises up and we see animals in real life carry out science fiction movie actions enmass against humans that would be a sign not to take lightly.

 

[Timtofly]

Correct. "The last trump" (also called "the trump of God") has absolutely no connection to the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal. The first is for salvation, the second is for damnation. Yet people continue to stumble over this simple fact.

It is similar though, but I agree. The 7th Trumpet is the Celebration call. It last for a single week, because an angel is blowing the trumpet. It is the transition from the gathering of sheep and wheat to start the next Millennium.

The monkey wrench that splits the week, is Satan's 3.5 years of sheol on earth. God did not plan this period in, but John witnessed it happening. In king Solomon’s time, God said if my people, called by God's name, Christians, humble themselves, pray, seek my face (the face of the One sitting on the throne, 6th seal, Revelation 6), turn from their (the church's) wickedness, in all nations, then I will hear from heaven and heal (the whole earth). That may have happened twice in either kingdom, but in the end both kingdoms were destroyed. Once again we have seen revivals and healing at times in the last 1990 years. But will at the end be the same for the church, or will there be one last healing?

The church today seems to be looking for an Antichrist instead of God on the throne and a revival and healing. If the church gets what they are looking for, then Satan will get 3.5 years. If the church starts looking for revival instead, turning from wickedness and humbling themselves, then God will keep His promise and Revelation 13 will be rendered void. Now the church is claiming they want Satan to come, so they can fight him in the physical. Paul warned it is not in the physical, but spiritual. Why in the name of. common sense and who wants sheol to be unleashed on physical earth, so the church can fight a physical war for 3.5 years? Revelation is proof that not even Christ is going to be here for those on the earth. Christ comes from heaven at the battle of Armageddon. Christ is not defending Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the seat of Satan for those 3.5 years.

If Satan gets his 3.5 years, the 7th Trumpet is still blowing the whole 3.5 years, because the blast does not resume, but keeps going until the battle of Armageddon. Satan interrupted the Celebration Week. The 7th Trumpet never stops!!! It is still going during the 3.5 days the end of the Week while God pours out the vials on Jerusalem and the two witnesses lay dead. At the end God breathes life back into them. They return to heaven. Then the skies once again go dark, and for one hour the battle of Armageddon commences. Revelation 14 and Revelation 19 complete the Second Coming.

The the Lord's Day starts with a resurrection of those beheaded by Satan and the sheep and wheat of the living harvest. These are those whom the Second Death have no power. They are in incorruptible bodies, not glorified. They do not have sin natures. They physically died. They are bodily resurrected. They are judged before thrones. They are given incorruptible bodies. They are granted eternal life, but can populate the earth for God’s set apart Sabbath. The Lord's Day set apart and free from the labor placed on Adam and his descendants for the last 6 millenia.

 

[Timtofly]

Well it is too bad you refuse to read that manuscript.

But let us look at one verse that should settle the issue of the people of God living in heaven.

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1. did Jesus just go into the first heaven and stop there and is preparing us a place in teh first heaven?
2. Did Jesus go into the 2nd heaven (what we call outer space) and is preparing us a place in space?
3. Or did Jesus go to the 3rd heaven, the New Jerusalem, where His and our Father is and is preparing a place for us there?

As for a pre trib rapture?

Two verses should settle that forever as well.

Rev. 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Now many say this means that Christians will be kept safe during all seven years of the tribulation! but that is wrong because from many many many prophetic passages God clearly shows that saints in the tribulation period are slaughtered by the Antichrist and his hordes. So either the bible is in conflict with itself which we know cannot be, or that this verse means what its primary meaning shows- the church (represented by Philadelphia) is kept out of the Tribulation!

The preposition "from" is "ek which is: out of! so coupled with "Keep" "tereo" it means to keep one out of!

Now another

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This cannot be speaking of teh lake of fire for Paul taught extensively on eternal security.

Also the lake of fire is never referred anywhere as the Wrath of God! But teh Tribulation or time of Jacobs trouble is referred to Gods Wrath poured out multiple times.

So the church is to be delivered from the tribulation by being taken out of it as the Word says. Other than by retranslating the common normal meaning of Scripture and giving them some mystical allegorical interpretation can one come up with any conclusion.

I also have spent over 45 years studying the word and looking at mens opinions of all phases of eschatology!

It is hard when we have developed a specific theology around a subject to trash it when we find we are wrong! But I have changed my mind many times over 45 years as Men of God who proved faithful handlers of the Word showed my by SCripture why I was lacking or in error. It is hard but humility before God requires us to do so.

As for a trumpet at the white throne judgment- that is you adding a trumpet that Scripture doesn't declare is there! that is an unfounded supposition like your God waking up the martyrs from time to time so they can cry out.

Dying physically after the 6th Trumpet is necessary, but how is by beheading. What is the point of enduring by getting one's head cut off? There is something about the mark that is not about Satan or the Antichrist.

There is a difference between receiving and taking. Some will proudly take it. But receiving is different. It is going to happen by God allowing it to appear. How can someone be forced to receive it by God? It is Satan's coercion. It is a choice. Get your head cut off, which will prevent it from happening. Keep your head and God will allow it to happen. The choice is ending God's punishment of labor on the descendants of Adam and giving one's self eternally to Satan's labor.

The 7th Trumpet ended Adam's 6000 years of labor. It will constantly be a reminder during those 3.5 years, that God’s punishment is over. Those with 666 will be immune to the sound after a while. But if they ever stop to enjoy the physical, it will then be a blairing reminder of the choice they made to take the mark.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald; Please set out for me your understanding of John 14:1-3.
Where do we go and where will the place prepared be? Use supporting scripture, not assumptions or other teachings.

As soon as you use supporting SCriptures to show the doctrine of souls sleep and that God wakes up the martyrs from time to time so they can shout something!

But Here is John 14:1-3

John 14:1-3
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Verse 1 have the same faith in Jesus as we have in the Father!

Verse 2 Mansions is actually rooms! What Jesus is doing i this. He has gone back to heaven (at the ascension) and is preparing a place for His betrothed (the church) When the place in heaven is prepared and the Father approves, He sends His Son to go fetch His bride! The Groom comes get His bride quietly and they wed with only a few witnesses on hand. This is rev. 19 Also it is spelled out in the parable of The Groom in Mat.. 25:1-13.

The Groom and wed quietly in heaven and then they return to earth to have the wedding feast!

This whole scenario as shown in JOhn 14 and Matt. 25 follows perfectly the Jewish wedding system of Jesus day.

The Match is made (Jesus and the church)
The bride price is paid (Jesus' blood)
The bride is given a token (the Holy Spirit Eph 1:14) the earnest is either a pledge or token to fulfill the promise. Like our engagement ring of today.

The groom goes away to prepare a place at His Fathers house.
The bride spends this time (can be as short as 9 months or can be years) to prepare herself to be a proper wife.
At the appointed time the Groom comes quietly (which is why the bride has her maidens watch). (the rapture)

Then after they wed they go to the feast (the millenial kingdom)

there is no secret code to understanding John 14. It was completely understood by the Apostles. Same with REv. 19 Where the church is shown in heaven adorned with the works that survived the Bema Seat Judgment.

Also there is no mystical meaning to 2 Cor. 5 6-8:

2 Corinthians 5:6-9
King James Version

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

It is a simple easy statement. If one is absent from the body, they are present with the Lord! That is all. that is how the sentence is constructed and what it means! Not that they will soul sleep and that the sleep time will seem like a blink of an eye. That is you making something up that is simply not there.

Now before I answer any more of your questions, show by scriptural support that Jesus did not mean heaven when He said John 14 that He is goign to prepare a place for us in His Fathers HOuse!

Or show by Scriptural suppor that the Fathers house is not the third heaven or aka The New Jerusalem.

Also if the church is not resurrected until teh second and final resurrection as you contend How can the apostles judge the 12 tribes of Israel in teh Millenial kingdom???

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dying physically after the 6th Trumpet is necessary, but how is by beheading. What is the point of enduring by getting one's head cut off? There is something about the mark that is not about Satan or the Antichrist.

There is a difference between receiving and taking. Some will proudly take it. But receiving is different. It is going to happen by God allowing it to appear. How can someone be forced to receive it by God? It is Satan's coercion. It is a choice. Get your head cut off, which will prevent it from happening. Keep your head and God will allow it to happen. The choice is ending God's punishment of labor on the descendants of Adam and giving one's self eternally to Satan's labor.

The 7th Trumpet ended Adam's 6000 years of labor. It will constantly be a reminder during those 3.5 years, that God’s punishment is over. Those with 666 will be immune to the sound after a while. But if they ever stop to enjoy the physical, it will then be a blairing reminder of the choice they made to take the mark.

Wow what a wonderful sounding story! It is too bad that God put absolutely 0 of what you wrote in His Inspired Infallible Word!

How can someone take the mark because they are forced by god?

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
King James Version

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Remember believing controls actions! It is a verb.

As far as receiving and taking? NO there is no different. They are synonymous!

And many will survive the 7 year tribulation or 70th week of Daniel Jesus made that clear! They repopulate teh eath when Jesus returns at teh end of the tribulation to establish his 1000 year kingdom!

YOu said the 7th trumpet ENDED 6000 yeares of toil. Are you saying that the 7 trumpets have already sounded, the seven seals have been opened? SCripture?

 

[Keraz]

Now before I answer any more of your questions, show by scriptural support that Jesus did not mean heaven when He said John 14 that He is goign to prepare a place for us in His Fathers HOuse!

Revelation 21:1-3 refutes you. It is AFTER the Millennium that the New Jerusalem comes to the earth and mankind will then live with God.

The Groom and wed quietly in heaven and then they return to earth to have the wedding feast!

What unscriptural nonsense! You have made this up, it is not Biblical.
We Christians never leave the earth, we must endure until the end. Matthew 23:13

 

[Timtofly]

Wow what a wonderful sounding story! It is too bad that God put absolutely 0 of what you wrote in His Inspired Infallible Word!

How can someone take the mark because they are forced by god?

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
King James Version

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Remember believing controls actions! It is a verb.

As far as receiving and taking? NO there is no different. They are synonymous!

And many will survive the 7 year tribulation or 70th week of Daniel Jesus made that clear! They repopulate teh eath when Jesus returns at teh end of the tribulation to establish his 1000 year kingdom!

YOu said the 7th trumpet ENDED 6000 yeares of toil. Are you saying that the 7 trumpets have already sounded, the seven seals have been opened? SCripture?

Revelation 20 says they were resurrected from death. No one can live in Adam's sinful nature body after the 7th Trumpet. The Millennium is the 7th day, a day set apart as Holy to Christ. None of Adam's descendants will live after the battle of Armageddon. Resurrection means death. No rapture mentioned at all. Show me a verse where souls are raptured at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Revelation 20 says they were resurrected from death. No one can live in Adam's sinful nature body after the 7th Trumpet. The Millennium is the 7th day, a day set apart as Holy to Christ. None of Adam's descendants will live after the battle of Armageddon. Resurrection means death. No rapture mentioned at all. Show me a verse where souls are raptured at the battle of Armageddon.

Of course people can! the 7 years of tribulation are not over! after the 7th trumpet we see the accounts of teh antichrist and Babylon and then we see the seven angels having the last plagues! The 7th Trumpet occurs in REv. 11. Jesus does not come back till REv. 19!

There are no souls raptured at Armageddon. When the survivors of earth that are allowed into teh millenial kingdom do enter, they will have renewed glorified bodies. As Is. says people will repopulate the earth and somewone 100 years old wioll be conisdered a child! People also will have till their 100th birthday to accept Christ or die!

 

[Davy]

I was just having a similar discussion w/ someone else. Every mention of the "four winds" are not necessarily connected. It's just another way to say, from the corners of the earth, from every direction (the wind blows), the face of the earth, etc. Could it have a prophetic meaning? I suppose but it's also likely it's just a simple expression. Regarding EZ. 37, that wouldn't be the church that would be the OT saints. Israel for the earth, the church for heaven.

The four winds in the Rev.7 case is being used in the prophetic sense. The fact that it is saying they are held back from 'blowing', and to not yet hurt the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, it is pointing to God's consuming fire that is to destroy man's works off the earth on the last day of this world (2 Peter 3:10; Hebrews 12:25-29).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Revelation 21:1-3 refutes you. It is AFTER the Millennium that the New Jerusalem comes to the earth and mankind will then live with God.

I have never taught differently! I have even told you this several times. Guess you didn't bother to read those times. But the Church is not mankind, it is the church! We reign with Jesus. we will have been with Christ for 1,000 years Just as Jesus said ini John 14.

why don't you give an explanation backed by SCripture of John 14???

What unscriptural nonsense! You have made this up, it is not Biblical.
We Christians never leave the earth, we must endure until the end. Matthew 23:13

YOu can if you wish. But Gods Word says the church is not appointed to the 7 years of wrath and we are to be deliverds from it.

If we have to endure then Jesus lied to the Church of Philadelphia Because millions of trib saints die in the trib period!

REv. 19
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



The four and 20 elders are in heaven- they are people!

A great multitude are in heaven- they are people
the bride is in heaven perfected and wearing her robes given to the church in heaven.

Why should we believe you reinterpretation????? I really want to know!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Revelation 21:1-3 refutes you. It is AFTER the Millennium that the New Jerusalem comes to the earth and mankind will then live with God.

What unscriptural nonsense! You have made this up, it is not Biblical.
We Christians never leave the earth, we must endure until the end. Matthew 23:13

Seeing as you are worried about humans being in heaven, I give you this, just in case you missed this passage in all your studies!

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[Trekson]

The four winds in the Rev.7 case is being used in the prophetic sense. The fact that it is saying they are held back from 'blowing', and to not yet hurt the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, it is pointing to God's consuming fire that is to destroy man's works off the earth on the last day of this world (2 Peter 3:10; Hebrews 12:25-29).

I believe it is the wrath of the Lamb (trumpets) followed by the wrath of God (vials) that is being held back until the 144,000 are sealed and the church is raptured and immediately after the 1/2 hour of silence as we all contemplate what is about to beset the earth, that begins the 7th seal/1st trumpet judgment.

 

[Davy]

I believe it is the wrath of the Lamb (trumpets) followed by the wrath of God (vials) that is being held back until the 144,000 are sealed and the church is raptured and immediately after the 1/2 hour of silence as we all contemplate what is about to beset the earth, that begins the 7th seal/1st trumpet judgment.

The purpose of being 'sealed' with God's seal is shown in Revelation 9 regarding Christ's elect there. Being sealed with God's seal is by The Holy Spirit so that the locust army nor the serpent is able to deceive Christ's elect. It's purposed in order from Christ's elect to be able to make a stand during the tribulation. It is not just a sealing for 144,000 (Israelites), but also for the "great multitude" (Gentiles). Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church. They aren't separated for the tribulation like some want to think.

 

[Keraz]

A great multitude are in heaven- they are people
the bride is in heaven perfected and wearing her robes given to the church in heaven.

Why should we believe you reinterpretation????? I really want to know!

The 'people' in heaven are dead souls. Proved by Revelation 6:9-11, it is them who praise God for taking revenge on those who killed them. Revelation 19:2
There is no scripture that says people will live in heaven, let alone get married there!

What we should believe is what the bible actually says and not speculate with our own fanciful ideas.

Your Bible verses in 1 Corinthians 15, are prophecies about the Great White Throne Judgement, AFTER the Millennium. Proved by;
1 Corinthians 15:24 and 55, paralleled by Revelation 21:4

 

[Trekson]

The purpose of being 'sealed' with God's seal is shown in Revelation 9 regarding Christ's elect there. Being sealed with God's seal is by The Holy Spirit so that the locust army nor the serpent is able to deceive Christ's elect. It's purposed in order from Christ's elect to be able to make a stand during the tribulation. It is not just a sealing for 144,000 (Israelites), but also for the "great multitude" (Gentiles). Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church. They aren't separated for the tribulation like some want to think.

I have to respectfully disagree, I'm not pre-trib but I don't believe the church will be here for the majority of the 70th week. The 144,000 will be spared most of this but not just because they are sealed, but because the sealed plus some others will be safely secured somewhere when they go into hiding for 3 1/2 yrs. Rev. 12:6.

 

[Trekson]

The purpose of being 'sealed' with God's seal is shown in Revelation 9 regarding Christ's elect there. Being sealed with God's seal is by The Holy Spirit so that the locust army nor the serpent is able to deceive Christ's elect. It's purposed in order from Christ's elect to be able to make a stand during the tribulation. It is not just a sealing for 144,000 (Israelites), but also for the "great multitude" (Gentiles). Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church. They aren't separated for the tribulation like some want to think.

I do believe they are separate but not by any dispensation but simply because the destiny of the 144,000 is different from the destiny of the gentile church. The 144,000 will be used by Christ to serve in the millennial era, Rev.14:4 while the church will be traveling back and forth between heaven and earth doing whatever we have been assigned to do. Earth will, for the majority of the millennium, be a paradise similar to Eden.

 

[Davy]

I have to respectfully disagree, I'm not pre-trib but I don't believe the church will be here for the majority of the 70th week. The 144,000 will be spared most of this but not just because they are sealed, but because the sealed plus some others will be safely secured somewhere when they go into hiding for 3 1/2 yrs. Rev. 12:6.

I wish that's how it will be, but I don't see that in God's Holy Writ.

The protection upon Christ's elect that I see written, is against temptation to fall away to the coming false-Messiah thinking he is our Lord Jesus. It doesn't mean physical protection, it means spiritual protection.

The great tribulation is not going to be a time like most are being misled to think. It is not going to be a time of chaos and misery. The time of chaos is actually just before the tribulation. This is why Lord Jesus said as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, don't be troubled, because the end is not yet. So the end, meaning the very end, the great tribulation, will be a time of world peace. That is the kind of deception the coming Antichrist playing God in Jerusalem is going to setup over all nations. The majority of the world will believe he is God, and will bow to him. The Antichrist couldn't pull that deception off if he went around just killing everyone.

This is why one of the warnings for the end Apostle Paul gave is when the deceived start saying, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them, and they shall not escape.

Thus the coming great tribulation will be a spiritual test upon the majority, not a physical tribulation for the deceived.

Many just pass over the following Scripture. It reveals that even deceived loved ones will deliver up members of their own family to death in that time:

Mark 13:11-13
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

That event in red isn't about family quarrels that happen today. That is about family members who are deceived by the fake-Jesus delivering up other members who refuse to bow to that fake-Christ during the tribulation. For one of Christ's elect that makes stand for Him, and refuses to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ, their deceived loved ones won't understand why the elect won't believe. They will think they're doing their loved ones a service by having them delivered up. They will think of it as a help, to get them to see that's Lord Jesus they are refusing. Thing is, that first supernatural one coming is not going to be Lord Jesus, but an imposter. This is what God's Holy Writ declares for the end.

 

[Davy]

I do believe they are separate but not by any dispensation but simply because the destiny of the 144,000 is different from the destiny of the gentile church. The 144,000 will be used by Christ to serve in the millennial era, Rev.14:4 while the church will be traveling back and forth between heaven and earth doing whatever we have been assigned to do. Earth will, for the majority of the millennium, be a paradise similar to Eden.

I don't see that. The destiny of the 144,000 is the same as the Gentiles. The reason I think the 144,000 Israelites are written of separately in Rev.7 is because God in the Old Testament prophets also covered both groups that way, even when saved together as one body. And the idea of being 'sealed' with God's sealing means being sealed by The Holy Spirit, so both groups are actually being shown as belonging to Lord Jesus, which means His Church. Also, the "camp of the saints" as shown in Rev.20 is on the earth, not up in Heaven. That camp on earth is where Christ's Church will be, not up in Heaven.

Also, the saved out of all peoples are shown in the Revelation 15:2-4 Scripture, singing the Song of Moses in Christ's coming kingdom. So it's not like the Gentiles are left out of Christ's reign with His elect in Rev.14.