Dead Faith???

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BreadOfLife

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John 6:29 KJV
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Tecarta Bible
Uh-huh.
And what does the Bible say that "believing" in Christ entails?

- Being Baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)


Faith isn't just sitting on your rear end "believing" and waiting for Him to return.
That's what the lazy servant did (Matt. 25:14-20). His master created an opportunity for him and he did NOTHING about it.
 
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Waiting on him

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- Being Baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2

All works of the Spirit. If you claim these are works of the flesh, then the works you work are performing the works of a hypocrite. The flesh profits nothing
 

BreadOfLife

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All works of the Spirit. If you claim these are works of the flesh, then the works you work are performing the works of a hypocrite. The flesh profits nothing
You are in total Scriptural confusion . . .

Let's address your last comment first - which applies to John 6:63.
Jesus had just finished telling the crowd that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood - and they were stunned. They couldn't believe what they had just hear Him say and were grumbling among themselves. Jesus responded by saying:

John 6:61-65

Does this shock you?
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”


In the very next verse - we see the result of their fleshly thinking . . .
John 6:66

As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

They thought Jesus was talking about cannibalism. They never stopped to think that they should trust in what He was telling them because they allowed themselves to be overcome by their fleshly human thoughts instead of allowing the SPIRIT to teach them. THIS is why Jesus told them that the flesh profits nothing.

As for your comment "All works are of the Spirit" - you are again confused.
The Spirit doesn't go around performing the works prepared for us by the Father. WE do that because we cooperate with the Spirit IN us.

Remember what Jesus told the Jews about cooperating with or refusing the Spirit:
Matt. 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING.
 
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justbyfaith

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@BreadOfLife,

Please realize that the Spirit of the Lord is sevenfold and that there are seven churches in the book of Revelation.

In the church that you are designated as, you will receive the reward if you keep His works unto the end.
 

BreadOfLife

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@BreadOfLife,

Please realize that the Spirit of the Lord is sevenfold and that there are seven churches in the book of Revelation.

In the church that you are designated as, you will receive the reward if you keep His works unto the end.
"Seven" simply symbolizes perfection and completion. God is not made up of 7 different Spirits.
As for the 7 churches in Revelation - they are ALL in Turkey, so what's your point?

Anyway - what does ANY of this have to do with what we were talking about??
We were talking about True Faith vs. Easy-Believeism.
 

marks

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SANCTIFY = 1. TO MAKE HOLY; SPECIFCALLY, 2. TO MAKE FREE FROM SIN (PURIFY, TO SEPARATE AS HOLY; CONSECRATE

Mankind can not do any of this. Only God can. It is the spirit that indwells the child of God that is sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Sinful flesh can not be made free from sin.

If we've died in Christ, we are free from sin, and sin no longer has mastery over us, according to Romans 6. Not that the flesh is free from sin, but I'm a new creation, which is free from sin, and from the flesh, and from the world.

Much love!
 
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marks

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It is the person who says...I sin, but it doesn't count.

The reality is what Paul wrote, therefore, it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that lives in me, which he clarifies to mean, "in my flesh".

Much love!
Mark
 

justbyfaith

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"Seven" simply symbolizes perfection and completion. God is not made up of 7 different Spirits.
As for the 7 churches in Revelation - they are ALL in Turkey, so what's your point?

Anyway - what does ANY of this have to do with what we were talking about??
We were talking about True Faith vs. Easy-Believeism.
Why don't you do some meditating on the scriptures in question (Revelation 2 and Revelation 3).
 

marksman

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Faith - Trust - Confidence - Hope

All of the above words mean the same thing in that each one of them can be used to define the other.

Salvation: Faith - Trust - Confidence - Hope in what Jesus did on the cross to pay for our sins.

*******

And along comes James and his famous words; "Faith without works is dead."

Person #1. Making 140,000 a year and has extra money to give to Charities.
Has only one job and has the time to do Charitable works.
Has lots of works to make sure his faith is not dead and thinks he is a good Christian.
(see Luke 18:10-14)

Person #2. Making 45,000 a year and working two jobs has no money to part with.
Since he/she is working two jobs they have no time to do Charitable works and very little to socialize. -- The person ""worries"" that they are not doing enough works to make sure their faith is not dead and worries that their faith is dead.

Person #3. Living on a social security check has no spare money to give.
Has no money for a car and a car's expense to travel and do Charitable works.
""Worries"" that he/she is not doing enough to make sure their faith is not dead and they feel they are not a good Christian. (my mother was like this)

Note Person #3 is very susceptible to TV preachers saying they have to step out in faith and send them money.

***********

Question #1. --- What does the statement "faith without works" do to the faith, trust, confidence, and hope in Christ of persons #2 and #3? ---- What does it do to their peace and joy in Christ?

Question #2. --- Tell me how a person's works "increase their faith" and makes their faith ""perfect?"" ---- Doesn't it do just the opposite? Doesn’t it make them have faith in themselves and their efforts?

In this age the children of God are at rest in God and have ceased from their own works just as God did from His.

Heb 4:1-11

1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

"So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest,'"

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said:

"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
NKJV

What was the disobedience example??? see verse 3

Judging by what you have written, it seems that "works" to you is charitable activity, which could not be further from the truth.

Works can encompass many things like....

healing the sick
waiting on tables at a meal
spending time in prayer for our nation
babysitting
washing the dishes
taking a homebound relative out for a trip to the beach
washing the feet of believers
taking a meal round to a family doing it tough
Mowing someone's lawn
Driving someone to a doctors appointment

All these are works but need very little money.
 

Ezra

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There are three tenses to sanctification -- past, present, and future.
interesting it could be said like that i prefer to use 3 steps of positional progressive ultimate imo faith w/o works is dead is not hard to understand. we. weare saved by grace through faith Romans 12 :3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. as per works our works will be tested by fire works done of the flesh wood hay stubble will perish Gold silver precious stone will last these are works of the pure heart .. so we will have works we will have faith . works do not make you saved our faith enables us to do works ..
 

Ezra

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James lays down the definition of Faith in Chapter 2 of His Epistle (James 2:14-26).
He states that if all you do id "believe" - then you are no better off than the DEMONS, who also believe (James 2:19).

The context of Scripture teaches us that:
TRUE Faith = Belief + Works (obedience).
Unless we cooperate with God's grace, we cannot hope to be saved.

This is why Luther despised the Epistle of James, referring to it as "The Epistle of Straw", and tried to remove it from the Canon.

Paul stated that God has prepared good works for us in advance.
These are NOT works of our own - but opportunities that HE created FOR us (Eph. 2:10).
i really could careless what luther thought he was just a MAN granted he did do a good thing but i do not base my salvation on his works.. the Book of james is easy to understand i would be careful about your straw man remarks you could get to close to the fire and go poof
 

Ezra

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SANCTIFY = 1. TO MAKE HOLY; SPECIFCALLY, 2. TO MAKE FREE FROM SIN (PURIFY, TO SEPARATE AS HOLY; CONSECRATE

Mankind can not do any of this. Only God can. It is the spirit that indwells the child of God that is sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Sinful flesh can not be made free from sin.
i agree but question
Sinful flesh can not be made free from sin.
i would like to see your explanation on this part
 

BreadOfLife

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i really could careless what luther thought he was just a MAN granted he did do a good thing but i do not base my salvation on his works.. the Book of james is easy to understand i would be careful about your straw man remarks you could get to close to the fire and go poof
What "straw man" remarks?
I was simply stating how many people misinterpret the Epistle of James.

Besides - if you really "couldn't care less" about what Luther and your Protestant Fathers thought about this Epistles - you wouldn't have the aberrant view of it that you do.
 
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Ezra

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I was simply stating how many people misinterpret the Epistle of James.
so tell me how they misinterpret james.. you stated luther felt it should not be in the cannon ..so exactly what aberrant view do i have ? it amazes see how the words straw man comes up when in disagreement of a belief . i have listened to reformed Lutheran teaching on Galatians and walked away scratching my head
 

BreadOfLife

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so tell me how they misinterpret james.. you stated luther felt it should not be in the cannon ..so exactly what aberrant view do i have ? it amazes see how the words straw man comes up when in disagreement of a belief . i have listened to reformed Lutheran teaching on Galatians and walked away scratching my head
Either you agree with Luther's understanding of the Epistle of James - or you agree with the Catholic understanding.

Funny YOU should be so obsessed with straw men because Luther referred to this Book as "The Epistle of Straw". He thought James was weak in his teaching on faith because they didn't mingle with his OWN aberrant belief that we are saved by "faith alone". Luther added the word "alone" to Rom. 3:28 in his German translation:
Rom. 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Luther's version
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith alone apart from the works of the law.


Actually - there is only ONE place is ALL of Scripture where the words "faith alone" are together - and that is in James 2:24, where he states emphatically:
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.


This disgusted Luther because it went completely against his new religious system.
The Catholic Church has NEVER taught that we "earn" our way into Heaven or that we saved by our works. this is a Protestant fallacy. the Church has ALWAYS taught that works are en essential element of our faith - as James teaches (James 2:14=26).

Faith is NOT "belief".
Faith is belief + works (obedience)

This is what Paul referred to as the "obedience to faith" (Rom. 1:5) and why he said that LOVE (Charity) and NOT faith or hope was the greatest virtue (1 Cor. 13:13).

So, once again - either you believe, as MOST Protestants do, in Luther's version of James - or you believe in the Catholic understanding of it.
 
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Ezra

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You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.
not hard to understand works are a by product of the fruit of the spirit ..the biggest thing is when reformed here the word works the caution sing --FREAK OUT.. WORKS COMES FROM FAITH
This disgusted Luther because it went completely against his new religious system.
religious system is correct Luther done good getting away from the Catholics .but then he suddenly had create his new fangle dangle doctrine. i dont agree with the Catholics either .. your bread needs new life sorry.in a nut shell james is saying faith works..use it other wise of you never do any thing you have dead faith
 

justbyfaith

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But I will give you a hint...when you hold to the perspective that I see you holding, scripture teaches that the only way you will obtain the reward is to keep His works unto the end.

Good luck with that.

@BreadOfLife
 

Episkopos

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But I will give you a hint...when you hold to the perspective that I see you holding, scripture teaches that the only way you will obtain the reward is to keep His works unto the end.

Good luck with that.

@BreadOfLife


Keeping His works till the end is the requirement of the saint. No one gets a reward for stopping the process of sanctification.