Deception Leading Straight to the Antichrist
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Ah . . . before the heavenly throne, though standing on earth. OK, I understand.
Much love!
Hi Enoch,
I think that when some people think "spiritual", it's in terms of "unsubstantial". But neglecting to consider that those who inhabit it find it just as much their home as we do here. And while it seems non-material to us here, is that the way we will experience the heavenly?
Obviously I don't know, but I don't think so.
Much love!
Hi Keraz,
I'm sorry you reject this response. I was not attempting to support "rapture to heaven", I was refuting your points.
1/ Such an idea is not found in the Bible.
It is found in 1 Thess., John 14, Rev 7, there are others if you really want to look at this.
Added . . . you assert, such an idea is not found, I assert it is, with a supporting Scripture. So this is not a valid argument, but could become one.
2/ Jesus refutes it five times; John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10
None of these refute this teaching, these all say we can't get there on our own. You and I are in complete agreement on that.
Added to say . . . You support your assertion that no one will be taken into heaven with verses which say that no one can go there on their own, therefore, those verses do not actually support your argument, therefore, this is an invalid argument.
3/ Unprecedented, why should God remove His people today, when all up until today have been persecuted and martyred.
Well, the first time something happens is in fact, well, the first time. If it happens to be what God is doing, then it's just what God is doing. He said we wouldn't understand His ways. Although personally, to me this seems completely in character.
Because something has not happened before is not a valid argument against it happening in the future.
4/ The prophets have told us what will happen in the end times and how we must endure until the end.
Has God through His prophets told all people that they will have to live to the end of the great tribulation? No, many will die before that, and many have. Not being here because of death, or because of removal, no requirement that every believer be here till the end of that time. And good reason to think that there needs to be some sort of change which this removal would address.
Enduring to the end can only mean enduring to the end of what God has for each of us whatever it may be, and cannot mean that all Christians who have ever been must be on the earth at the end of the age. This also is an invalid argument.
5/ The ongoing dispute of pre, mid, post or anytime rapture, is evidence enough of there being no proper scripture about a 'rapture'.
That people don't agree over a position does not mean that position is wrong. Well, it depends on who you are and what other positions you hold. For instance I'm Trinitarian, but some are Modalist, some are Oneness, then there is "shared essence", something like that. Does that automatically make trinitarianism wrong?
Added . . . Disagreement over a position is not a valid argument against a position, after all, the opposing side disagrees with you.
6/ Jesus said that we Christians could be deceived. He was right!
But you can become undeceived in a moment by coming to believe the pre-trib rapture! OK, tongue in cheek, of course! But point made I hope.
Added . . . Again, this does not present a valid argment for or against the rapture.
7/ Peter said that Satan is prowling around looking who he can devour with his lies and Paul says that people will listen to 'nice' stories, turning away from sound teaching.
See reply to 6/.
Keraz,
I believe I've refuted each of the points made, do you disagree with my comments?
Much love!
marks,
From everything that we read about Heaven, and the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is presently in Heaven in His resurrected glorified body, and that we too will receive such bodies, I believe Heaven is as *tangible* as earth, but in a purer and better way, since it is another dimension which is both spiritual and real (as real as anything on earth). The heavenly city New Jerusalem is also tangible but constructed out of heavenly precious stones and gold.
tangible
adjective
tan·gi·ble | \ ˈtan-jə-bəl \
Definition of tangible
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 a: capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch :PALPABLE
b: substantially real : MATERIAL
2: capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind
3: capable of being appraised at an actual or approximate value
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Keraz, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven (ouranou) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16
The term "heaven" (ouranou) seems to be a vague general term: "Strong's Greek 3772: Perhaps from the same as oros; the sky; by extension, heaven; by implication, happiness, power, eternity." "God created the heavens (shamayim) and the earth".
The word heavens in the OT is used to describe the broad expanse above.
And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Matthew 24:31
"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven." 2 Kings 2:11 You suggest there is no proof that he stayed and lived there. That's a long reach, which questions why God took him there to begin with.
The term commonly used in the Greek is paradise/paradeison
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise/paradeison.”Luke 23:43
"How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise, paradeison 2 Corinthians 12:4
Knowing the name of the exact geographic location, is unimportant. What IS important is "to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8 I am sure He will take me to the correct address. Often any geographic reference is not given. We DO know that wherever we are going, it will be to the throne of God and the Lamb:
"I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb" . .
And BTW, Christians will not be gathered in Israel. There is not enough room to hold them all. That passage is addressed to Israel!
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Thank you for giving me a post I could "like" this morning! Sometimes this forum can be a real downer!
Much love!
Keraz
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Both Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen; Acts 7:56, saw God's Throne from the earth. Understand?
Yes I do.
You can think people can go to heaven as much as you like, but as I have already said, the best refutation of that idea, is the many prophesies that tell us how all the Lord's faithful people will live in all of the holy Land, which, Stan B, is all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates.
Any ideas or fanciful notions of living in heaven are just fables that Paul warns us to not be fooled by. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
And in both those passages the scene is described that way. So when I say, you saw a movie at the drive-in, just out in the field, in front of the screen, and then I say Jerry saw a move in the theatre, you would be mistaken to think of that as an open field in front of a screen. It's indoors, AC, cushy seats, all that. Different venues, with different descriptions.
Care to actually refute the points I've made? You gave a list of reasons for your view, I've refuted each on, to which you reply, Nope, you're wrong. In so many words.
Let's say that you are correct in your idea that we will all live in the Holy Land, how does the destination define the route?
I'm not saying we continue to live in the heavenly realm, we certainly return to this realm in the kingdom.
Much love!
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Jesus left us with the promise "I go to prepare a place for you", it certainly was not Israel!! Who would want to live there, of all places, during the tribulation? And to suggest that God will move His throne to earth during the tribulation is totally beyond comprehension. He still has to deal with the war that will take place in Heaven during that time.
Hi Stan and Welcome,
As you can see we have a whole spectrum of TOTALLY BIZARRE ideas floating around here (and on all Christian forums). As you can see from the title of this thread, the OP has no clue about the Rapture and connects it to the Antichrist (and some call it the "Jesuit End Times Antichrist Deception"). Then others connect the Papacy to the Antichrist!
But even after one has presented the relevant Scriptures, there is total unbelief about this supernatural event called the Rapture (more precisely the Resurrection/Rapture). So posters drag out the names of Ribera, Irving, McDonald, Darby, Scofield, etc. and then make ad hominem attacks. And then promote the idea that no one goes to
Heaven, and that Enoch and Elijah probably went to Inner Mongolia (or somewhere else) rather than Heaven. Was there ever a time when weird and bizarre ideas were floated around as we see today?
Stan B
Well-Known Member
I have somewhat of an affinity with Schofield. As a really old guy, one of my early Bibles was the Schofield Reference Bible which I acquired over 50 years ago, in 1962! But importantly, it was well used! :-)
Keraz
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I can see that you are a reasonable person, Marks. I often get very bitter and nasty responses to my refutation of a 'rapture'.
Point 1/ There is no verse that says God will take His people to live with Him in heaven. That idea must be assumed or guessed at from verses like: We are not appointed to His wrath...Rev 3:10
For starters, this applies to those who 'stand firm' and it absolutely does not say or hint of any removal to avoid His wrath. I have over 20 verses that tell how the Lord will PROTECT His own DURING His wrath.
2/ The five verses I provided say that people don't go to heaven; period. Of course going to heaven necessitates a change to a spiritual state. Rapture believers point to 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, saying that will happen.
However, that prophecy of Paul's, clearly says; then Death will be no more..... Which we know from Revelation 21:1-7 happens AFTER the Millennium.
3/ For God to suddenly remove His people from persecution and martyrdom, after nearly 2000 years of terrible tortures of the Christians, is quite illogical as well as impossible; as God does not change His mind. Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8
4/ One of us is deceived and as believers in a rapture is the majority, you are probably comforted by that. But I see how all the prophets were disbelieved and vilified, so as I promote what they wrote, I expect and get; nothing less.
I realize that for most 'rapture' believers, it is very difficult to change. Their friends and families would think they had gone crazy!
5/ The dispute over when a supposed 'rapture' could happen, makes a joke out of the whole issue.
We are plainly told all the important aspects of Salvation and things like how Jesus will Return. Why not tell us about going to heaven? Our citizenship is recorded in heaven; in the Book of Life, which is not opened until the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
6-7/ Those who have chosen to believe false teachings, will be locked into them and it becomes very hard for them to change. Isaiah 29:9-12, Jeremiah 4:22, Isaiah 48:6-8, +
Isaiah 8:16 I shall bind up the message...so it cannot be known by My disciples.
And Jesus said: Father, You hide these things from the wise and educated and reveal them to the simple. Matthew 11:25
Sobering thoughts, worthy of very deep consideration.
Keraz
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The place Jesus is preparing is obviously the New Jerusalem, which will come to the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
Re New Israel; there are many prophesies that say how the Lord will make the holy Land blossom and prosper His people there. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Amos 9:13-15, +
Jesus will be revealed to His own, soon after His Day of fiery wrath. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, Revelation 14:1
What about the war in heaven? Revelation 12:7-9 tells us that Satan will be thrown down to the earth for the final 1260 days before Jesus Returns.
Hi Stan, And welcome to you!
I can see where someone might think that, I can think of Rev 6, the 6th seal, the people apparently seeing, or at least knowing about God on His throne sending wrath. But you make an excellent point, that there is much clearly happening in the heavenly realm, clearly stated as such.
I think the meaning is pretty plain. Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us, to then return and take us to be with Him. He went away . . . where did He go? Where is this place He went to prepare? He went to heaven. Where our citizenship just happens to be. Hmm.
Much love!
Hi Keraz,
Thank you for your responses!
I'd use verses like in Thess. about being caught up to forever more be with Him. As I'm of the view that this is "pre-trib", it then makes sense that as Jesus will continue to be in heaven, we will be there with Him. When He returns to the earth, we return with Him. Where He is is where we are, so if Jesus is in heaven after the catching up, then we will be to.
And of course Rev. 7 shows believers in heaven. But we'd need to focus more on that passage, perhaps another post.
But I disagree, and I ask that you show those verses mean what you say they mean. When I look at them, I see them using verb syntax that states no one has gone on their own, but nothing that says no one can be taken into heaven. It's just not there.
Not illogical, the age ends sometime. And unless all people are killed in the great tribulation, and of course they won't be, Some people will be spared martyrdom.
Oh, and my mother. My mother was a Christian. I believe she was born again, and that she is with Jesus. My mother was not persecuted, not martyred, so many millions were, no one is spared! Why was she? And if it can be her, it can be you too. It's just whatever God wants.
Anyone who knows me knows I'm not about the numbers of who believes things. I've come to hold a number of views, that when I first came to them, I had Never heard them anywhere, knew no one who taught these, though now I do. But it's always and only about what God says.
That's people making the issue their disputings, and has no bearing on whether or not the Bible teaches a certain thing. You just need to make sure you understand the passages, for what they themselves say, I think that when we all do that perfectly, we will all believe the same things.
Yes, some things do seem to be very hidden from some people! We need to be open and receptive and humble.
Much love!
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Davy
Well-Known Member
What you're saying about that pre-trib idea reveals a lack of understanding what Paul actually taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 though.
The 1 Thess.4 "caught up" event is about those of us still alive on earth, when Jesus 'descends' to the earth. There is nothing written there about a return back into Heaven.
Or about a return to earth, or coming in glory, or setting up His throne, or any of that. We need to broaden our search!
Much love!
Davy
Well-Known Member
Careful of pop doctrines being circulated today about the coming Antichrist.
It won't be Islam's Mahdi, nor a pope. Islam's deceptions are for their followers. The same type of deceivers among their religion are the same type of deceivers today among Christianity pushing the idea that a pope will be the Antichrist. Those of the Reformation charged the pope as the Biblical Antichrist, but we know he wasn't, because the Bible prophecies for the end involving the coming false Messiah in Jerusalem didn't happen then.
God's Word reveals the orthodox Jews will accept the coming Antichrist as their awaited Messiah. He is to show up in Jerusalem, not Rome, nor New York.
Thus the "temple of God" Apostle Paul pointed to in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 isn't about the spiritual temple idea of Ephesians. It's about a literal physical temple in Jerusalem that will be built for the last days.
Moreover, it is impossible for the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2 to be corrupted by any false one, simply because its foundation is the Apostles and prophets, with Jesus as its Cornerstone. That is how we can easily know the one who originally came up with that theory was probably one of Satan's hosts, simply because only one of them could ever think that the true spiritual temple could ever be corrupted by an Antichrist.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, we need to 'stick'... to God's Word as written.
1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
Paul says don't worry about the brethren that had already died and are asleep. Jesus will bring them "with Him". From where? From the heavenly when He 'descends' to earth.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Paul was emphatic that we shall not precede (Greek word means 'precede'), the asleep saints who are already with Jesus. They're going to rise first, and that will happen when Jesus 'descends from heaven'. He will bring those with Him when He descends to the earth.
Then... on His descent...
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Those of us still alive are "caught up" to Him, and them. There is nothing there about a return back to Heaven. The rest of the story is actually given in Zechariah 14, which declares His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives, and He brings all His saints there with Him.
If you have to stop understanding what you read there, and instead insert men's theory about a trib period in between 1 Thess.4 and Zech.14, then you have left God's Word. Doing that is allowing men's leaven doctrines to have sway over your thinking.
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