Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Lizbeth]

Men (and women) of renown..? I believe that passage we are talking about probably speaks to such as they, sadly (though some names there I don't know anything about). Though one doesn't have to be well-known to be in the same kind of error.

Think that God's true messengers walking in a manner pleasing to Him will refuse to be put on a pedestal and worshiped/adored. Like the angel in Revelation. So important to remain in the simplicity of Christ and not be seduced away from it. The church isn't supposed to be doing things the way the world does things...lights, camera, action, perform! ....but how Jesus did things when He was on the earth...simply.
And not to be "seen by men".

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I was asking how you see that scripture, actually. Yes, we will know them by their fruit.....which can and needs to be discerned. so not looking at the fruit with natural eyes.

In the passage we are talking about they were boasting in their "works" that they were asserting had been "for God" but were they really when Jesus said they hadn't been doing God's will? They might have started out well enough genuinely knowing Christ since they had spiritual gifts, but then went astray as so often happens.....deceived by the lure of fame and fortune and/or just plain false doctrines. "Away from me I never knew you".....I believe speaks to God's foreknowledge, how we are elect according to His foreknowledge and He also foreknows what we will do with what He has given us.....and I never knew you in this case means it will be "as if" He never knew them...meaning they must have become cut off from Him at some point (even though gifts and callings are given w/out repentance).

Being known and foreknown by God is what it means to be saved, so "away from me I never knew you" is not something anyone wants to hear on judgment day. In being saved we are separated and freed from the clutches and dominion of the old man and flesh (if we sin in an inadvertent way against our own wishes and we are therefore penitent it is counted as being "no longer I who sin but sin living in me"- separated)......so what happens to those who fall back under the old man's dominion without ever repenting? Not a good end apparently and that is why Jesus was warning. I dont' think it will sit well with the Lord if we tell people, don't worry about anything, it's only your "old man" that will be judged.....that takes all the "salt" out of the warning...and clearly there is something to be worried about or there would be no reason to warn. And Jesus also warns elsewhere about the church losing its saltiness. The gospel message is not a toothless tiger. It's not for no reason that the Lord is to be feared.

No toothless tiger …still the same warning and hope to be found in Him not having my own righteousness which is by the law but having the Righteousness of God through Faith. Same, not of the adulterous woman which brings forth sin unto death, but the Free Woman which brings forth fruit unto God; obedience unto Righteousness.

Like I said, I only wanted to share a perspective with you. We’ve gotten far away from it now. Now it’s forcing. I do get for all the verses there is condemnation. It’s like is the glass half full or the glass half empty? I’m not denying how you’ve read the passage. Only sharing that …maybe…possibly…not only is the glass half empty is there BUT that also there is an equally valuable the glass is half full in it as well.

 

[Johann]

Think that God's true messengers walking in a manner pleasing to Him will refuse to be put on a pedestal and worshiped/adored. Like the angel in Revelation. So important to remain in the simplicity of Christ and not be seduced away from it. The church isn't supposed to be doing things the way the world does things...lights, camera, action, perform! ....but how Jesus did things when He was on the earth...simply.
And not to be "seen by men".

No toothless tiger …still the same warning and hope to be found in Him not having my own righteousness which is by the law but having the Righteousness of God through Faith. Same, not of the adulterous woman which brings forth sin unto death, but the Free Woman which brings forth fruit unto God; obedience unto Righteousness.

Like I said, I only wanted to share a perspective with you. We’ve gotten far away from it now. Now it’s forcing. I do get for all the verses there is condemnation. It’s like is the glass half full or the glass half empty? I’m not denying how you’ve read the passage. Only sharing that …maybe…possibly…not only is the glass half empty is there BUT that also there is an equally valuable the glass is half full in it as well.

My apologies-veering off topic.

Shalom
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

No toothless tiger …still the same warning and hope to be found in Him not having my own righteousness which is by the law but having the Righteousness of God through Faith. Same, not of the adulterous woman which brings forth sin unto death, but the Free Woman which brings forth fruit unto God; obedience unto Righteousness.

Like I said, I only wanted to share a perspective with you. We’ve gotten far away from it now. Now it’s forcing. I do get for all the verses there is condemnation. It’s like is the glass half full or the glass half empty? I’m not denying how you’ve read the passage. Only sharing that …maybe…possibly…not only is the glass half empty is there BUT that also there is an equally valuable the glass is half full in it as well.

We each are sharing our perspectives. I'm not understanding what you mean about the glass half full or half empty. But those scriptures, the things that Jesus said, are for our good, so that when we take them to heart they help to "preserve" and cleanse us, to keep us from falling into that error. And if anyone has fallen into what those scrips are talking about they would bring conviction which is also for good to avoid condemnation in the end. (I think we can sometimes confuse conviction with condemnation.....I don't believe they are the same thing.....conviction doesn't feel good, but it is not the same thing as coming under condemnation.)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Jesus said, are for our good, so that when we take them to heart they help to "preserve" and cleanse us

Exactly. “Preserve” and “cleanse us” That is why I hear that cut, of Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. [13] And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

In depart from Me, you who works iniquity. I never knew you. To “persevere” and “cleanse us”

 

[Johann]

We each are sharing our perspectives. I'm not understanding what you mean about the glass half full or half empty. But those scriptures, the things that Jesus said, are for our good, so that when we take them to heart they help to "preserve" and cleanse us, to keep us from falling into that error. And if anyone has fallen into what those scrips are talking about they would bring conviction which is also for good to avoid condemnation in the end. (I think we can sometimes confuse conviction with condemnation.....I don't believe they are the same thing.....conviction doesn't feel good, but it is not the same thing as coming under condemnation.)

No-they are not the same thing.

Biblical Examples of Conviction
John 16:8-11: In this passage, Jesus speaks about the coming of the Holy Spirit, saying, "When he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." This passage highlights the role of the Holy Spirit in convicting individuals of their sin and their need for righteousness through Christ.

Acts 2:37-38: After Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost, the crowd is "cut to the heart" and asks, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter responds, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Here, the conviction brought about by Peter's preaching leads to repentance and conversion.

Isaiah 6:5: When the prophet Isaiah sees the vision of the Lord, he exclaims, "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Isaiah's conviction of his own sinfulness in the presence of God's holiness leads to his purification and commissioning.

Condemnation
Condemnation, on the other hand, refers to the judicial pronouncement of guilt and the ensuing punishment for sin. Unlike conviction, condemnation does not lead to repentance and restoration but rather signifies final judgment and separation from God. Condemnation is the result of unrepented sin and rejection of God's grace through Jesus Christ.

Biblical Examples of Condemnation
Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." This verse emphasizes that those who are in Christ are not under the threat of eternal judgment and punishment because they have been justified by faith. It contrasts the state of condemnation with the assurance of salvation.

John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." This passage explains that belief in Jesus Christ is the dividing line between salvation and condemnation, with unbelief leading to condemnation.

Revelation 20:12-15: This passage describes the final judgment: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done... And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." This vividly portrays the ultimate condemnation for those who are not found in the book of life.

Theological Implications
Theologically, conviction is seen as a merciful act of God, intended to bring people to a recognition of their sin and a subsequent turning to Christ for forgiveness and salvation. It is a work of the Holy Spirit that leads to spiritual growth and sanctification.

Conversely, condemnation is the outcome of a life lived in persistent rebellion against God, rejecting His offer of salvation. It is an eternal separation from God's presence and the ultimate consequence of sin.

Understanding the difference between conviction and condemnation is crucial for Christian living. Conviction should lead believers to a deeper relationship with God, fostering humility and dependence on His grace. It reassures them of God's ongoing work in their lives, aimed at their spiritual formation and ultimate salvation.

On the other hand, understanding condemnation underscores the gravity of rejecting God's grace and the seriousness of sin. It serves as a sober reminder of the consequences of unbelief and the importance of sharing the gospel message to lead others away from condemnation towards salvation in Christ.

J.

 

[Lizbeth]

We each are sharing our perspectives. I'm not understanding what you mean about the glass half full or half empty. But those scriptures, the things that Jesus said, are for our good, so that when we take them to heart they help to "preserve" and cleanse us, to keep us from falling into that error. And if anyone has fallen into what those scrips are talking about they would bring conviction which is also for good to avoid condemnation in the end. (I think we can sometimes confuse conviction with condemnation.....I don't believe they are the same thing.....conviction doesn't feel good, but it is not the same thing as coming under condemnation.)

There is a manner of thinking and approaching the scriptures that I believe is a kind of pseudo-spirituality....I call it new agey thinking. I was trying that on for size at one time but I found it to be empty....Jesus wasn't in it but pride was, or so it seemed to me, so I returned to the confines of His sheepfold. Bringing my thoughts into captivity to the obedience of Christ, the Word.

 

[Johann]

. But those scriptures, the things that Jesus said, are for our good, so that when we take them to heart they help to "preserve" and cleanse us, to keep us from falling into that error.

John 15:3
"Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you."

Context and Exegesis:
This statement by Jesus occurs during the Farewell Discourse in the Gospel of John, where Jesus is addressing His disciples before His crucifixion. The context is the allegory of the vine and the branches, where Jesus emphasizes the importance of abiding in Him to bear fruit. The term "clean" here is derived from the Greek word "καθαρός" (katharos), which implies purity and being free from blemish.

Interpretation:
Jesus is indicating that His teachings (the word He has spoken) have a purifying effect on the disciples. This cleansing is not merely moral but spiritual, signifying their readiness to be in communion with God and to carry out His mission. The word of Jesus, therefore, acts as a sanctifying agent, preparing and preserving the disciples for their spiritual journey and mission.

Ephesians 5:25-27
"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish."

Context and Exegesis:
In this passage, Paul addresses the relationship between husbands and wives, drawing a parallel to the relationship between Christ and the church. The focus is on Christ's sacrificial love and its sanctifying purpose for the church.

Interpretation:
The phrase "having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word" suggests a ritualistic cleansing akin to baptism, but it goes deeper to indicate the transformative power of Christ's teachings. The Greek term "ῥῆμα" (rhema) here refers to the spoken word of Christ, which has the power to purify and sanctify the believers. This cleansing prepares the church to be holy and blameless, emphasizing the ongoing role of Christ's words in preserving and sanctifying believers.

Psalm 119:9-11
"How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word. With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments! I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you."

Context and Exegesis:
Psalm 119 is a profound meditation on the law of God, extolling its virtues and the blessings of adhering to it. The psalmist expresses a deep devotion to God's word as a means of living a righteous life.

Interpretation:
The psalmist acknowledges that God's word acts as a safeguard against sin. The Hebrew term "דָּבָר" (dabar) for "word" encompasses God's commandments, promises, and teachings. By internalizing (storing up) God's word, believers can maintain purity and avoid sin. This passage highlights the preventive and preservative function of Scripture in the life of a believer, aligning with the idea that Jesus' teachings serve to cleanse and keep us from error.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

Context and Exegesis:
Paul, in his second letter to Timothy, emphasizes the divine origin and comprehensive utility of Scripture. The term "breathed out by God" (Greek: θεόπνευστος, theopneustos) underscores the inspiration and authority of the Scriptures.

Interpretation:
Scripture's purposes include teaching (instructing in doctrine), reproof (exposing sin), correction (restoring to an upright state), and training in righteousness (guiding in ethical conduct). This comprehensive role of Scripture aligns with the concept of preservation and cleansing. The teachings of Jesus, as part of Scripture, are integral in equipping believers to live godly lives and avoid falling into error. The term "complete" (Greek: ἄρτιος, artios) suggests maturity and full readiness for good works, reflecting the transformative power of God's word.


Exegetically, the Scriptures, especially the teachings of Jesus, serve multiple roles in the life of a believer: they cleanse from sin, preserve from error, and equip for righteous living. Jesus' words, as seen in John 15:3, are inherently purifying, preparing His followers for spiritual fruitfulness. Ephesians 5:25-27 and Psalm 119:9-11 further underscore the sanctifying and preserving power of God's word. Finally, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 encapsulates the comprehensive utility of all Scripture in training believers in righteousness and equipping them for every good work. Together, these passages affirm that internalizing and adhering to Jesus' teachings are crucial for spiritual health and growth.

Maybe a hit and miss from my side, interjecting in your dialogue with another member. @VictoryinJesus

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There is a manner of thinking and approaching the scriptures that I believe is a kind of pseudo-spirituality....I call it new agey thinking. I was trying that on for size at one time but I found it to be empty....Jesus wasn't in it but pride was, or so it seemed to me, so I returned to the confines of His sheepfold. Bringing my thoughts into captivity to the obedience of Christ, the Word.

Ok. I can tell you are over the conversation. For what it’s worth I don’t see it as new agey thinking, or a kind of pseudo- spirituality. I got caught up in the same as you explained. I can relate. I don’t fault you in being weary there. I’m not good with expressing my thoughts clearly. If I could…for me it’s the opposite that what I’m hearing in His words helped me to come away from what you described. Same as you, I became weary of it.

 

[Lizbeth]

My apologies-veering off topic.

Shalom
J.

Brother I don't believe in women leading church gatherings, except maybe in exceptional circumstances, like He raised up Deborah. And I know there are lots of people, men and women, who claim to have heard different things from the Lord.....but that is the very reason we are told to test everything and test the spirits to make sure it is the HOLY Spirit and not the voice of another. If God doesn't still speak that way, in spirit, there would be no need to test what we are "hearing"......scripture would have taught that we need to reject everything we are "hearing" rather than test everything.

 

[Lizbeth]

Exactly. “Preserve” and “cleanse us” That is why I hear that cut, of Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. [13] And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

In depart from Me, you who works iniquity. I never knew you. To “persevere” and “cleanse us”

Sister....does condemnation cleanse, or is it the end result of people having not been cleansed while they had the chance?

Bible says to seek the Lord while He may be found....while it is still called Today....the day of His longsuffering which we are to account as salvation (for whosoever will).

 

[Lizbeth]

Ok. I can tell you are over the conversation. For what it’s worth I don’t see it as new agey thinking, or a kind of pseudo- spirituality. I got caught up in the same as you explained. I can relate. I don’t fault you in being weary there. I’m not good with expressing my thoughts clearly. If I could…for me it’s the opposite that what I’m hearing in His words helped me to come away from what you described. Same as you, I became weary of it.

It was leading to a dead end...I found myself lonely for the Lord because it was leading me away from Him. There are lots of rabbit trails we can go down which lead to a dead end. I just mentioned my experience in case it would be helpful.

 

[Johann]

.but that is the very reason we are told to test everything and test the spirits to make sure it is the HOLY Spirit and not the voice of another. If God doesn't still speak that way, in spirit, there would be no need to test what we are "hearing"......scripture would have taught that we need to reject everything we are "hearing" rather than test everything.

And Sister-this is how I believe re testing-
Hearing God's Voice in Scripture
God’s Communication through Scripture

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Interpretation: The Bible is presented as God's authoritative word, fully sufficient for teaching and guiding believers in all aspects of faith and practice. This suggests that regular engagement with Scripture is essential for hearing God's voice.
Guidance by the Holy Spirit

John 16:13: "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

Interpretation: The Holy Spirit guides believers into all truth, implying an ongoing, dynamic communication that complements the written Word.
not speak of himself. or, from himself. The Holy Spirit works to glorify Christ (Joh_16:14), He does not draw attention to Himself. Just as any reading of Old Testament Scripture which fails to find Christ "in all the Scriptures" (Luk_24:27 note, Luk_24:44) is defective, so any work or ministry alleged to be that of the Holy Spirit, which in balance draws more attention to Him, or gives more emphasis to Him or His manifestations and gifts, than to Christ, is similarly defective. Regularly studying Scripture by means of well-chosen cross references will assist the student of the Bible to maintain the necessary and proper Biblical balance in all things (+*Joh_5:39, +*Isa_8:20 note. *Isa_43:10 note. Mar_7:9, +*Act_17:11; **Act_20:27; **Act_20:32, Php_1:9-10, Col_1:10, +*2Ti_1:7; **2Ti_3:16; **2Ti_3:17, +*2Pe_1:20 note). The study of Scripture in this manner will soon reveal to earnest students any imbalance or wrong perception of Biblical truth on their part, if they are willing to take the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice (**Psa_119:18, +*Isa_8:20 note). This method of Bible study is "self correcting" (2Ti_2:15; +*2Ti_3:16), the surest corrective for the human tendency to fall into error or go off on tangents (Gal_1:6, Eph_4:14, Col_1:23; Col_2:7, 1Ti_4:16). Note that neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit presume to speak on their own, but speak as directed by God the Father. In this, therefore, they are both subordinate to the Father (Joh_6:38 note), and the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Son. +Joh_7:17, Gen_42:23.
but. Joh_5:19.
he will shew. or, tell. or, report. or, declare. Joh_16:14-15; Joh_16:25, Joh_4:25; Joh_5:15; Joh_15:15, +*Joe_2:28, Act_2:17-18; Act_11:28; Act_14:27; Act_15:4; *Act_20:23; *Act_21:9-11; Act_27:24, 1Co_2:6-10, Eph_1:17-18, 2Th_2:1-3; 2Th_2:12, *1Ti_4:1-3, *2Ti_3:1-5, 1Pe_1:12, 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:14; 2Pe_2:19-21, 1Jn_1:5, **Rev_1:1; **Rev_1:19, Revelation 6-22.
things to come. Isa_41:22, Mat_11:3, Gal_5:5, Rev_4:1; Rev_19:10.



Personal and Direct Guidance

Acts 13:2: "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'"
Interpretation: The early church experienced direct guidance from the Holy Spirit for specific actions, indicating that God does sometimes speak in a more personal and immediate way.
Do Believers Need to Hear God’s Voice?
Primary Guidance through Scripture

Psalm 119:105: "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."
Interpretation: Scripture is the primary means through which God guides believers. Immersing oneself in the Bible provides the foundational principles and wisdom needed for life.
Inner Witness of the Holy Spirit

Romans 8:14: "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
Interpretation: The Holy Spirit's inner witness, often experienced as an inner prompting or conviction, is a crucial aspect of God's guidance. This does not always involve an audible voice but a sense of direction and affirmation from the Spirit.
Discernment and Testing

1 John 4:1: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
Interpretation: Believers are called to discern and test spiritual impressions against Scripture and sound doctrine. This implies that while hearing God’s voice is valuable, it must be validated through biblical principles.


Paragraph: 1John 4:1-6 -
Warning Against False Teachers

1. Many False Prophets Have Gone Out Into the World v.1-3

Believe not every spirit -- (μὴ παντὶ πνεύματι). “Stop believing,” as some were clearly carried away by the spirits of error rampant among them, both Docetic and Gnostics. Credulity means gullibility and some believers fall easy victims to the latest fads in spiritualistic humbuggery.

spirits -- "The spirits are teachers, prophets -- men who claim to have a special revelation from God." - Frank L Cox
"In all ages of the church persons have arisen who claimed to possess supernatural powers, or to have received special revelations. John does not say that they all are insincere and time-serving; but he reminds us that they may be, and that their claims must always be the delusion of fanatical enthusiasts; they may be the lies of fanatical impostors." - Homiletic Commentary.

prove the spirits -- Put them to the acid test of truth as the metallurgist does his metals. If it stands the test like a coin, it is acceptable (dokimos, 2Co_10:18), otherwise it is rejected (adokimos,. 1Co_1:1; 2Co_1:1-7).

test -- try, prove. "run an assay on them as a metallurgist does his metals, and determine whether they were of God. They were to be able to do either by exercising miraculous power in the discernment of spirits (1Co_12:4-11), or by comparing the claims of these men with the known teaching of the Holy Spirit through properly accredited representatives. Today we test such teaching by comparing them with the New Testament. Isa_8:20

many -- Then and now! Even when I hear the VOICE of God and it is not in alignment with Scriptures I would reject it!

The need to hear God’s voice can be understood in a balanced way:

Scripture as the Primary Guide: Regular study and meditation on the Bible is crucial, as it contains God’s revealed will and provides comprehensive guidance for living a godly life. This is the most reliable way to "hear" God.

Holy Spirit’s Inner Witness: Being attuned to the Holy Spirit’s inner promptings and convictions is important for personal guidance. This requires a sensitive and prayerful heart, open to the Spirit's leading.

Discernment and Validation: Any perceived communication from God, whether through inner impressions, circumstances, or other believers, should be tested against the truths of Scripture to ensure it aligns with God’s revealed will.

In summary, while hearing God’s voice can include personal and direct experiences, it fundamentally involves understanding and applying the truths of Scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit, and discerning through a biblical framework. This balanced approach ensures that believers are anchored in God’s word while being open to the Spirit’s leading in their daily lives.

Thanks
J.

 

[Ritajanice]

@VictoryinJesus @Lizbeth ...very interesting reading from you two, certainly food for thought.

Sometimes it just so good to really “ listen” to what others are saying....thank you!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Sister....does condemnation cleanse, or is it the end result of people having not been cleansed while they had the chance?

Bible says to seek the Lord while He may be found....while it is still called Today....the day of His longsuffering which we are to account as salvation (for whosoever will).

Does the sword which enters in dividing, separating —cutting away, the removal of the vail over the heart 2 Corinthians 3:15-18 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is (remains)upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Do you see a circumcision made without hands? Linked to that sword that enters into the heart and cuts dividing joints and marrow …what is removed? You asked does it “cleanse”? In removal of the blindness, it does cleanse. In removing that which prevents Christ from being seen, yes it cleanses. Ok in hearing His commanding the worker of iniquity to depart from Him…hear Him in Mark 8:33 …
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Who savours not the things that be of God, but the things of men.

This whole conversation…I only want you to see one thing. If this is “depart from me, you who work iniquity. I never knew you.” Is ONLY some way out end of things where that verse is …all those that regretfully hear that said to them when it’s too late.

Im trying to get you to consider this one thing…put yourself in that verse first. We have all been those who savour not the things that be of God, but the things of men. Consider how much we boast in that one verse against all those poor suckers who love not the things of God but love the things of men. Personally, I think we might be in for a shocker how we should have at least considered that verse could be to the “worker of iniquity” in us all. Unless we are lying. Did Jesus hate Peter because of rebuking satan saying you love the things of men and not the things of God? No …He stepped in. he told that old worker of inequity to scram. To get behind him. Personally concerning Peter and that incident and all the others where Peter pouted over His asking, “Peter, do you love Me?” “Yes, Lord. You know I love you.” “feed My sheep.” …personally I think Jesus Christ never knew him who worked iniquity in Peter, separating that far from Him.

 

[Johann]

And Sister-this is how I believe re testing-
Hearing God's Voice in Scripture
God’s Communication through Scripture

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Interpretation: The Bible is presented as God's authoritative word, fully sufficient for teaching and guiding believers in all aspects of faith and practice. This suggests that regular engagement with Scripture is essential for hearing God's voice.
Guidance by the Holy Spirit

John 16:13: "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

Interpretation: The Holy Spirit guides believers into all truth, implying an ongoing, dynamic communication that complements the written Word.
not speak of himself. or, from himself. The Holy Spirit works to glorify Christ (Joh_16:14), He does not draw attention to Himself. Just as any reading of Old Testament Scripture which fails to find Christ "in all the Scriptures" (Luk_24:27 note, Luk_24:44) is defective, so any work or ministry alleged to be that of the Holy Spirit, which in balance draws more attention to Him, or gives more emphasis to Him or His manifestations and gifts, than to Christ, is similarly defective. Regularly studying Scripture by means of well-chosen cross references will assist the student of the Bible to maintain the necessary and proper Biblical balance in all things (+*Joh_5:39, +*Isa_8:20 note. *Isa_43:10 note. Mar_7:9, +*Act_17:11; **Act_20:27; **Act_20:32, Php_1:9-10, Col_1:10, +*2Ti_1:7; **2Ti_3:16; **2Ti_3:17, +*2Pe_1:20 note). The study of Scripture in this manner will soon reveal to earnest students any imbalance or wrong perception of Biblical truth on their part, if they are willing to take the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice (**Psa_119:18, +*Isa_8:20 note). This method of Bible study is "self correcting" (2Ti_2:15; +*2Ti_3:16), the surest corrective for the human tendency to fall into error or go off on tangents (Gal_1:6, Eph_4:14, Col_1:23; Col_2:7, 1Ti_4:16). Note that neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit presume to speak on their own, but speak as directed by God the Father. In this, therefore, they are both subordinate to the Father (Joh_6:38 note), and the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Son. +Joh_7:17, Gen_42:23.
but. Joh_5:19.
he will shew. or, tell. or, report. or, declare. Joh_16:14-15; Joh_16:25, Joh_4:25; Joh_5:15; Joh_15:15, +*Joe_2:28, Act_2:17-18; Act_11:28; Act_14:27; Act_15:4; *Act_20:23; *Act_21:9-11; Act_27:24, 1Co_2:6-10, Eph_1:17-18, 2Th_2:1-3; 2Th_2:12, *1Ti_4:1-3, *2Ti_3:1-5, 1Pe_1:12, 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:14; 2Pe_2:19-21, 1Jn_1:5, **Rev_1:1; **Rev_1:19, Revelation 6-22.
things to come. Isa_41:22, Mat_11:3, Gal_5:5, Rev_4:1; Rev_19:10.



Personal and Direct Guidance

Acts 13:2: "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'"
Interpretation: The early church experienced direct guidance from the Holy Spirit for specific actions, indicating that God does sometimes speak in a more personal and immediate way.
Do Believers Need to Hear God’s Voice?
Primary Guidance through Scripture

Psalm 119:105: "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."
Interpretation: Scripture is the primary means through which God guides believers. Immersing oneself in the Bible provides the foundational principles and wisdom needed for life.
Inner Witness of the Holy Spirit

Romans 8:14: "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
Interpretation: The Holy Spirit's inner witness, often experienced as an inner prompting or conviction, is a crucial aspect of God's guidance. This does not always involve an audible voice but a sense of direction and affirmation from the Spirit.
Discernment and Testing

1 John 4:1: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
Interpretation: Believers are called to discern and test spiritual impressions against Scripture and sound doctrine. This implies that while hearing God’s voice is valuable, it must be validated through biblical principles.


Paragraph: 1John 4:1-6 -
Warning Against False Teachers

1. Many False Prophets Have Gone Out Into the World v.1-3

Believe not every spirit -- (μὴ παντὶ πνεύματι). “Stop believing,” as some were clearly carried away by the spirits of error rampant among them, both Docetic and Gnostics. Credulity means gullibility and some believers fall easy victims to the latest fads in spiritualistic humbuggery.

spirits -- "The spirits are teachers, prophets -- men who claim to have a special revelation from God." - Frank L Cox
"In all ages of the church persons have arisen who claimed to possess supernatural powers, or to have received special revelations. John does not say that they all are insincere and time-serving; but he reminds us that they may be, and that their claims must always be the delusion of fanatical enthusiasts; they may be the lies of fanatical impostors." - Homiletic Commentary.

prove the spirits -- Put them to the acid test of truth as the metallurgist does his metals. If it stands the test like a coin, it is acceptable (dokimos, 2Co_10:18), otherwise it is rejected (adokimos,. 1Co_1:1; 2Co_1:1-7).

test -- try, prove. "run an assay on them as a metallurgist does his metals, and determine whether they were of God. They were to be able to do either by exercising miraculous power in the discernment of spirits (1Co_12:4-11), or by comparing the claims of these men with the known teaching of the Holy Spirit through properly accredited representatives. Today we test such teaching by comparing them with the New Testament. Isa_8:20

many -- Then and now! Even when I hear the VOICE of God and it is not in alignment with Scriptures I would reject it!

The need to hear God’s voice can be understood in a balanced way:

Scripture as the Primary Guide: Regular study and meditation on the Bible is crucial, as it contains God’s revealed will and provides comprehensive guidance for living a godly life. This is the most reliable way to "hear" God.

Holy Spirit’s Inner Witness: Being attuned to the Holy Spirit’s inner promptings and convictions is important for personal guidance. This requires a sensitive and prayerful heart, open to the Spirit's leading.

Discernment and Validation: Any perceived communication from God, whether through inner impressions, circumstances, or other believers, should be tested against the truths of Scripture to ensure it aligns with God’s revealed will.

In summary, while hearing God’s voice can include personal and direct experiences, it fundamentally involves understanding and applying the truths of Scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit, and discerning through a biblical framework. This balanced approach ensures that believers are anchored in God’s word while being open to the Spirit’s leading in their daily lives.

Thanks
J.

 

[Johann]

Reformers

Martin Luther
"The Word of God is the greatest, most necessary, and most important thing in Christendom." - Martin Luther emphasized that the Bible is the ultimate authority and the foundation of Christian faith, negating the need for additional revelations.
"For where God built a church, there the devil would also build a chapel... Thus is the devil ever God’s ape." - Martin Luther argued that Scripture alone is sufficient and warned against seeking extra-biblical revelations which could lead to deception.


John Calvin
"We must remember that Satan’s distillations are not to be obeyed and that the will of God is alone to be sought in His Word." - John Calvin stressed that God's will is fully revealed in the Scriptures and warned against looking for divine guidance outside of it.
"We ought to read the Scriptures with the express design of finding Christ in them." - John Calvin highlighted that the Scriptures are complete and fully sufficient for knowing Christ and God's will.
Contemporary Theologians


Voddie Baucham
"The Bible is a reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses. They report supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies and claim that their writings are divine rather than human in origin." - Voddie Baucham asserts the Bible's sufficiency by emphasizing its divine origin and reliability.
"There is no such thing as private revelation. God’s Word is complete. If we want to hear God’s voice, we read the Bible. If we want to hear God’s voice audibly, we read the Bible out loud." - This quote by Voddie Baucham explicitly denies the necessity of seeking God's voice outside of Scripture.


John MacArthur
"Scripture is not only a sufficient guide for salvation and godliness, but it is also a sufficient guide for every area of Christian living." - John MacArthur reinforces the sufficiency of Scripture for all aspects of life and faith.


"The charismatic movement’s tendency to elevate personal experience and private revelation to a level of authority higher than Scripture has done incalculable harm." - John MacArthur criticizes the pursuit of personal revelations, affirming that Scripture alone is the supreme authority.
These quotations collectively underscore the principle of sola scriptura (Scripture alone), a cornerstone of Reformation theology and upheld by modern theologians like Baucham and MacArthur, advocating that the Bible is wholly sufficient for all matters of faith and practice.

Thanks @Lizbeth
Johann

 

[Episkopos]

Reformers

Martin Luther
"The Word of God is the greatest, most necessary, and most important thing in Christendom." - Martin Luther emphasized that the Bible is the ultimate authority and the foundation of Christian faith, negating the need for additional revelations.
"For where God built a church, there the devil would also build a chapel... Thus is the devil ever God’s ape." - Martin Luther argued that Scripture alone is sufficient and warned against seeking extra-biblical revelations which could lead to deception.


John Calvin
"We must remember that Satan’s distillations are not to be obeyed and that the will of God is alone to be sought in His Word." - John Calvin stressed that God's will is fully revealed in the Scriptures and warned against looking for divine guidance outside of it.
"We ought to read the Scriptures with the express design of finding Christ in them." - John Calvin highlighted that the Scriptures are complete and fully sufficient for knowing Christ and God's will.
Contemporary Theologians


Voddie Baucham
"The Bible is a reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses. They report supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies and claim that their writings are divine rather than human in origin." - Voddie Baucham asserts the Bible's sufficiency by emphasizing its divine origin and reliability.
"There is no such thing as private revelation. God’s Word is complete. If we want to hear God’s voice, we read the Bible. If we want to hear God’s voice audibly, we read the Bible out loud." - This quote by Voddie Baucham explicitly denies the necessity of seeking God's voice outside of Scripture.


John MacArthur
"Scripture is not only a sufficient guide for salvation and godliness, but it is also a sufficient guide for every area of Christian living." - John MacArthur reinforces the sufficiency of Scripture for all aspects of life and faith.


"The charismatic movement’s tendency to elevate personal experience and private revelation to a level of authority higher than Scripture has done incalculable harm." - John MacArthur criticizes the pursuit of personal revelations, affirming that Scripture alone is the supreme authority.
These quotations collectively underscore the principle of sola scriptura (Scripture alone), a cornerstone of Reformation theology and upheld by modern theologians like Baucham and MacArthur, advocating that the Bible is wholly sufficient for all matters of faith and practice.

Thanks @Lizbeth
Johann

The devil is also a bible teacher. He tried teaching Jesus its finer points when he was in the desert.

If you actually read the bible and take its message seriously (rather than pretend to agree with it) ...you will seek God's face and have eternal life. Jesus said (it's in the bible) "go away I never KNEW you" What it doesn't say is "Go away you never read the bible."

Any false teacher can make a shallow case for reading the bible...and then fully twist its meaning. To THOSE kind of people Jesus says...go away. Why...because they have not obeyed the bible testimony to "Come to Me."

The Bible is about both... a "Come to Me" and a "Go away"

Many bible readers (hearers only)....but not doers. The wise are the doers. The foolish just read and justify themselves. Defenders of reading the bible (where that is NOT being threatened) have a carnal agenda in most cases. It's not hearers that are justified (Although so many will justify themselves) but DOERS of the law who are justified.

 

[Episkopos]

Says the man who rely on experiences and divine visitations and not in what stands written in Scriptures.
No wonder you brand of religion is kind of wacko.
J.

You say this because all you have is your opinions that are formed through indoctrination from men...and a faulty reading of the bible that is influenced by that indoctrination.

The bible should ONLY be taught by those who have experienced what's written on its pages. God is against the false prophets who speak without having seen anything. Likewise bible teachers need more than just bibles...but rather know God and be known of God and equipped to teach others the ways of God.

I use the bible as much or more than most...and yet very few will care to look deeper than their previous conditioning. We are each responsible for receiving what we receive as truth.

 

[Lizbeth]

Does the sword which enters in dividing, separating —cutting away, the removal of the vail over the heart 2 Corinthians 3:15-18 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is (remains)upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Do you see a circumcision made without hands? Linked to that sword that enters into the heart and cuts dividing joints and marrow …what is removed? You asked does it “cleanse”? In removal of the blindness, it does cleanse. In removing that which prevents Christ from being seen, yes it cleanses. Ok in hearing His commanding the worker of iniquity to depart from Him…hear Him in Mark 8:33 …
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Who savours not the things that be of God, but the things of men.

This whole conversation…I only want you to see one thing. If this is “depart from me, you who work iniquity. I never knew you.” Is ONLY some way out end of things where that verse is …all those that regretfully hear that said to them when it’s too late.

Im trying to get you to consider this one thing…put yourself in that verse first. We have all been those who savour not the things that be of God, but the things of men. Consider how much we boast in that one verse against all those poor suckers who love not the things of God but love the things of men. Personally, I think we might be in for a shocker how we should have at least considered that verse could be to the “worker of iniquity” in us all. Unless we are lying. Did Jesus hate Peter because of rebuking satan saying you love the things of men and not the things of God? No …He stepped in. he told that old worker of inequity to scram. To get behind him. Personally concerning Peter and that incident and all the others where Peter pouted over His asking, “Peter, do you love Me?” “Yes, Lord. You know I love you.” “feed My sheep.” …personally I think Jesus Christ never knew him who worked iniquity in Peter, separating that far from Him.

Yes for everyone who will submit/obey to having our heart circumcised....who will submit/obey to being cleansed (both in the initial sense as well as ongoing sanctification as we "follow" Jesus). For those who won't submit/obey to being cleansed, who will not repent or learn from their mistakes and turn from their sin/error.....well there is the possibility that they will end up as branches that get cut off from the Tree. Condemnation is a thing, and not to be desired. There is the goodness of God but also His severity. It's clear in scripture that eternal life (immortality) is not granted to everyone....there is such a thing as perishing (mortality). Creation teaches us too.....which agrees with the the scriptures saying there are those who will perish like the beasts. Jesus saying to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.