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Who is God talking to? Proverbs 8:30-31 explains.....
That is not the way that verse reads in Greek, hence why original words studies are so important.
If you do some research you will see that this is a spurious verse that was never in the Bible at all, but added later to support a trinity.
There is no denying that "Father, son and holy spirit" were present at Jesus' baptism and indeed at the baptism of all Christians who willingly submit to enter into a special relationship with God "through" Jesus Christ in order to obtain salvation. (Matthew 28:19-20)
There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible....it is a word made up by trinitarians.
Perhaps you need to read that verse in many other translations to see if "he" belongs there? Who was Jesus claiming to be? The Messiah...not God.
Have you ever read Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh?
There are people who don't understand the Godhead (Trinity). It's not three gods in one God.
It's one God who co-exists as three distinct persons (yet not separated).
The Godhead (Trinity):
The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).
Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.
Here are a couple of quick points:
#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9-10, Daniel 7:13-14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalms 2:1-12) (Psalms 45:6-7) (Psalms 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).
The most clearest verse in Scripture that describes the Trinity is 1 John 5:7.
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).
This verse appears in the King James Version but it is wrongfully removed from many Modern Translations.
Now, there are two wrong extremes people have made involving the Trinity.
#1. Modalism
(Which is a belief held by United Pentecostals).
This says that there are no distinctive persons within the Godhead. That God the Father just puts on a mask and pretends to be the Son; Others believe it says all three persons are smashed together whereby the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost do not have any kind of distinctiveness anymore. But the Bible makes it clear that the Father sent the Son to die for our sins (And it was not the Son sending the Father) (1 John 4:14). The Bible makes it clear that one cannot be forgiven if they speak a word against the Holy Spirit but yet, this is not the case if one speaks a word against the Son, though (Matthew 12:32).
#2. Tritheism
(Which is a belief held by Mormons).
This says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods. This is polytheism or the worship of more than one God. But the Bible makes it clear that the Lord our God is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Then there is the correct view of the Trinity:
The Lord our God exists as one God, but He exists as three distinct persons (i.e. The Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Ghost). All three persons co-existed as one God for all eternity. Also, in the Trinity, the Father and the Son can dwell within one another despite their distinctiveness as persons within the Godhead, too. For Jesus said He dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in Him (John 14:10) (John 17:21).
Romans 1:20 says,
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).
Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
Colors of White Light = Red, Blue, Green.
Man's Formation = Dust, Mist (i.e. Water), Breadth of Life.
Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.
Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).
Jesus had power as God.
#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).
God purchased us with His own blood:
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).
There is no Savior beside or next to God:
“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” (Isaiah 43:11).
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.” (Matthew 16:19).
Does Jesus Have a God?
(Explaining John 20:17):
Jesus saith unto her,
"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."" (John 20:17).
Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God?
In other words, does God have a God?
Well, in the beginning of the gospel of John, it says this...
John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. The same was in the beginning with God."
In other words, John 20:17 is speaking in a similar way as John 1:1. The Word (Jesus - who is God) was with God the Father.
So when Jesus says... "I ascend unto... my God..." He is acknowledging that He is ascending to the Father who is God in essence in being (as a part of the plurality of the Godhead).
Yet, how can God have a God? Doesn't that imply a possession?
Yes, but Jesus says elsewhere, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Also, when Jesus uses the word "my" in the words "my God" He is also referring to whom He always obeys, too (Sort of like how a loyal servant always obeys His ruling King).
For Jesus says elsewhere, "... for I do always those things that please him." (John 8:29).
Also, when Jesus claimed to be God, and the Pharisees wanted to kill him for it, Jesus quoted Old Testament Scripture that says, "ye are gods." (i.e. gods = kings) as a way of protecting His mission in going to the cross (John 10:34).
Holy Spirit is God:
The Holy Spirit is called God:
“Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.” (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4).
The Holy Spirit is on equal level with being God:
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (Matthew 28:19).
The Holy Spirit is eternal:
“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Hebrews 9:14).
The Holy Spirit is a person:
“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;” (John 14:16).
The Holy Spirit can be grieved:
“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” (Ephesians 4:30).
The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed:
“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matthew 12:32).
Important Note: Only God can be blasphemed.
The Father Sent The Holy Spirit
The Bible says that God the Father sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus said.
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you (John 14:26).
The Father will send the Holy Spirit, not Himself, to help believers.
There Is A Difference Between The Father And The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit does the will of God the Father. Paul wrote.
And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will (Romans 8:27).
Source used for Holy Spirit being distinct from the Father:
Is the Holy Spirit a Distinct Person from God the Father?
(Note: While I agree with this article by this author, that does not mean I agree with everything this author or website says).
You said:
You said:
You said:
OK...let's make this real simple....please provide one clear statement FROM EITHER GOD OR JESUS, stating that the son is Almighty God
Shouldn't be too difficult....
Easy Squeezy
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !
These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty
Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:
We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.
Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.
Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.
Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),
Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
hope this helps !!!
Let's see how "squeezy" it becomes then....?Easy Squeezy
Do they? :smlhmm:
Well, you must remember that the Revelation God gave to Jesus Christ was passed on to the apostle John by one of Christ’s angels, and that this angel sometimes spoke for Jehovah and sometimes for Christ Jesus; so we must watch for these changes and note them on the basis of content and context. If Jesus was God, why did he need his Father to give him the Revelation to pass on to John? He had returned to heaven quite some time previous to this.
I gave you the direct quote from the Jewish Tanakh...how have I changed anything? The Jews surely know how to translate their own language....? Before and after the Israelites were liberated from Egypt, do you think they needed to know that God existed?
And 'I am' the one twisting scripture....it was twisted way before any of us were even thought of...Sorry, but "you guys" accept what was twisted by Christendom centuries ago. You accept what is taught without even checking to see if it fits in with the rest of the scriptures. The Bible does not contradict itself, so it is you guys who have to provide the proof that what you believe about the trinity us not a satanic lie. I have seen no evidence so far that is not suggestion dressed up to look like fact.
The silly games were played long before you or I were even born. The rot set in around the beginning of the second century when there were no apostles left to keep things on track....but as Jesus warned, "while men were sleeping" God's enemy sowed "weeds" of false Christianity and like weeds always do, they took over the whole arrangement. God allowed captivity in a greater Babylon in order for the fulfillment of prophesy to come to its conclusion...and here we are, situated in a world where "Christianity" is the most pathetic imitation of what Christ started that can be imagined. If Jesus said that "the gates of hades" would not prevail against his church....(Matthew 16:18) what is his "church" in our day? Is Christ hiding in amongst the disunited and bickering rabble that Christendom has created? Who is teaching the truth? Who are obeying Christ in all things?
