Uh, no. Your not getting it. God who is one spiritual being has three distinct persons who all act in harmony perfectly as one God together. Just as your body, soul, and spirit act in harmony as one together.
Defending the Godhead (Trinity) & the Divine Nature of Christ
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Uh, no. Your not getting it. God who is one spiritual being has three distinct persons who all act in harmony perfectly as one God together. Just as your body, soul, and spirit act in harmony as one together.
Bob Estey
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
You got the wrong mindset here. God is one being… and yet He exists as three persons. One God or one being… and yet He is also three. This sounds like a contradiction but it is not. All three are perfect in one. 1 John 5:7 says there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. One God. They are three, and yet one.
Okay. Put away the whole soul type thinking here. You would need to do a study on the word soul involving God and all the members of the Godhead to truly know that topic (of which I am sure you have not done the study on). It’s not important to know about whether God’s soul is singular or plural at this point. What is important to know is that God is one being or one God, and yet within the existence of His one being as being one God He has three persons to His one being. That’s the Trinity. Modalism is a denial of the Trinity.
The problem with your belief is that you are saying that the Father did not really send the Son, but the Father simply sent Himself.
This seems like a lie or a deception.
Also, who was Jesus praying to? Himself or was it the Father in the flesh praying to the Father in Heaven? Again, this part of the Bible just seems like a lie or deception if Modalism was true.
It doesn’t add up or make any sense.
Yes, the Trinity teaches that God is one God.
Yet, He also exists as three distinct persons WITHIN being one God.
The Word WAS God (John 1:1).
The Word was WITH God (John 1:1).
How can the Word be God, and yet also be WITH God?
Jesus says He is in the Father, and the Father dwells in Him (John 14:10).
How can that be if there is no distinctions of persons in the Godhead or Trinity?
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Try as you might, you aren't going to make me believe there are three Gods.
I am not telling you that there are three gods. I am saying there is ONE God, and three persons in that ONE God.
Mormons believe in Tritheism. This is the false belief that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate gods. This is false.
I am saying God is ONE GOD. Yet, He has three persons to His ONE BEING or in His being ONE GOD.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Not specifically, but since you asked...Is this directed at me?
I say that Jesus is who HE says he is.....”the son of God”......never once did he call himself “God the Son”.
Even when the Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy against him by accusing him of making himself God....what did Jesus say?
"The Jewish leaders replied, “We are not going to stone you for a good deed but for blasphemy, because you, a man, are claiming to be God.”
34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those people to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say about the one whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" (John 10:31-36)
Yahweh himself called the human judges in Israel "gods" because of their divine authority, not because they were gods that demanded worship.
Jesus too had divine authority from his Father to carry out his mission.
Indeed, what did Thomas say?
Can we take that from a Greek Interlinear? Just so we can see what it says in the language in which it was written.....OK?
"Thomas Thōmas replied apokrinomai · kai to him autos, saying legō, · ho “ My egō Lord kyrios, and kai · ho my egō God theos!”
The word "theos" is what we want to concentrate on here because of what many Christians think it means.....
Remembering that the Greeks were polytheists we have to understand what "theos" meant to them, not what it might have meant to later Bible translators.
According to Strongs Concordance, the primary meaning of "theos" is....
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities". ...so, it is not a word used by the Greeks to identify any specific "god" or "divinity".
Because all of their gods (mighty ones) had names, they were at a loss to define the singular (and at that time) nameless God of the Jews.
The only way to distinguish him was to use the definite article "the" ("ho" in Greek) in much the same way that we do when we want to identify a specific person who might have a name the same as someone famous. If guests knew that Brad Pitt was coming to a dinner party, wouldn't they ask "is it THE Brad Pitt"?
Nowhere is this demonstrated more clearly than in John 1:1 where in Greek we see how the omission of that one little word changed the whole meaning of it.
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."
Can you see the word "ho" used there? There is no doubt as to what it means. But do you see how it is applied here in this verse that is supposed to be the proof text to support the trinity.....The first mention of "theos" is preceded by the definite article, but the second is not. In the English translation, this is deliberately left out.....don't we need to ask why? That little word has a very big significance.
If God's name was still in use that verse would say...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine."
Yahweh (Jehovah) is "the God" but Jesus is not.
It is the Word who became flesh, not Yahweh.
Jesus can rightly, in the full definition of the word "theos", be called "a god"....but not "THE God".
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy 10:20, which from the Jewish Tanakh reads...
"You shall fear the Lord, your God, worship Him, and cleave to Him and swear by His Name." כאֶת־יְהֹוָ֧ה אֱלֹהֶ֛יךָ תִּירָ֖א אֹת֣וֹ תַֽעֲבֹ֑ד וּב֣וֹ תִדְבָּ֔ק וּבִשְׁמ֖וֹ תִּשָּׁבֵֽעַ:
You can see that God's name is clearly in the Hebrew text. So "the Lord your God" is Yahweh. Him only we are to worship.
Again, we need to understand what the word "worship" actually means.....
These were Babylonian astrologers and hence worshippers of false gods. Did these come to worship another "god"?
According to what they told Herod, they had come to give gifts to the new "king of the Jews" as was apparently their custom.
This was not worship, but obeisance. Its the same word and context determines how it should be translated....its basic meaning is to bow down.
So bowing down to God is "worship" whereas bowing to any human being is an act of obeisance, or reverence.
They did not worship him at all but rendered obeisance because their Lord was departing from them. The word "lord" doesn't mean God. It is a title of respect. Slaves called their masters "lord". Sarah called Abraham "lord" out of respect.
The angels know that the son is not God because he was with them for unknown eons of time in heaven as their Commander and Chief.
Failure to understand the words as they were understood by the Bible writers and their first century audience, leads to very wrong conclusions.
@Bob Estey
No offense, my friend. But I feel like the comic strip below is what was happening between us with my trying to explain to you the Trinity vs. your belief in Modalism.
Anyways, in either case, we can agree to disagree in love and respect and move on. I created this thread actually as a reply to answer a specific poster (so as not to disrupt another thread). I did not really intend to debate with others (Although I know that such is a possibility).
May the Lord Jesus bless you.
No offense, my friend. But I feel like the comic strip below is what was happening between us with my trying to explain to you the Trinity vs. your belief in Modalism.
Anyways, in either case, we can agree to disagree in love and respect and move on. I created this thread actually as a reply to answer a specific poster (so as not to disrupt another thread). I did not really intend to debate with others (Although I know that such is a possibility).
May the Lord Jesus bless you.
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This thread could do with some 3rd century perspective.
“Dialogue of Origen with Heraclides and the Bishops with him concerning the Father and the Son and the Soul.
After the bishops present raised questions concerning the faith of Bishop Heraclides, that he might confess before all the faith which he held, and after each one had said what he thought and asked questions, Heraclides said:
I also believe what the sacred Scriptures say: ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him nothing was made.’ Accordingly, we hold the same faith that is taught in these words, and we believe that Christ took flesh, that he was born, that he went up to heaven in the flesh in which he rose again, that he is sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that thence he shall come and judge the living and the dead, being God and man.
Origen said: Since once an inquiry has begun it is proper to say something upon the subject of the inquiry, I will speak. The whole church is present and listening. It is not right that there should be any difference in knowledge between one church and another, for you are not the false church. I charge you, father Heraclides: God is the almighty, the uncreated, the supreme God who made all things. Do you hold this doctrine?
Heracl. : I do. That is what I also believe.
Orig. : Christ Jesus who was in the form of God, being other than the God in whose form he existed, was he God before he came into the body or not?
Heracl. : He was God before.
Orig. : Was he God before he came into the body or not?
Heracl. : Yes, he was.
Orig. : Was he God distinct from this God in whose form he existed?
Heracl. : Obviously he was distinct from another being and, since he was in the form of him who created all things, he was distinct from him.
Orig. : It is true then that there was a God, the Son of God, the only begotten of God, the firstborn of all creation, and that we need have no fear of saying that in one sense there are two Gods, while in another there is one God?
Heracl. : What you say is evident. But we affirm that God is the almighty, God without beginning, without end, containing all things and not contained by anything; and that his Word is the Son of the living God, God and man, through whom all things were made, God according to the spirit, man inasmuch as he was born of Mary.
Orig. : You do not appear to have answered my question. Explain what you mean. For perhaps I failed to follow you. Is the Father God?
Heracl. : Assuredly.
Orig. : Is the Son distinct from the Father?
Heracl. : Of course. How can he be the Son if he is also the Father?
Orig. : While being distinct from the Father is the Son himself also God?
Heracl. : He himself is also God.
Orig. : And do two Gods become a unity?
Heracl. : Yes.
Orig. : Do we confess two Gods?
Heracl. : Yes. The power is one.
Orig. : But as our brethren take offence at the statement that there are two Gods, we must formulate the doctrine carefully, and show in what sense they are two and in what sense the two are one God. …”
(Dialogues of Origen: with Heraclides and the bishops with him, concerning the Father and the Son and the Soul)
Origen - Dialog with Heracleides - Christian History
“Dialogue of Origen with Heraclides and the Bishops with him concerning the Father and the Son and the Soul.
After the bishops present raised questions concerning the faith of Bishop Heraclides, that he might confess before all the faith which he held, and after each one had said what he thought and asked questions, Heraclides said:
I also believe what the sacred Scriptures say: ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him nothing was made.’ Accordingly, we hold the same faith that is taught in these words, and we believe that Christ took flesh, that he was born, that he went up to heaven in the flesh in which he rose again, that he is sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that thence he shall come and judge the living and the dead, being God and man.
Origen said: Since once an inquiry has begun it is proper to say something upon the subject of the inquiry, I will speak. The whole church is present and listening. It is not right that there should be any difference in knowledge between one church and another, for you are not the false church. I charge you, father Heraclides: God is the almighty, the uncreated, the supreme God who made all things. Do you hold this doctrine?
Heracl. : I do. That is what I also believe.
Orig. : Christ Jesus who was in the form of God, being other than the God in whose form he existed, was he God before he came into the body or not?
Heracl. : He was God before.
Orig. : Was he God before he came into the body or not?
Heracl. : Yes, he was.
Orig. : Was he God distinct from this God in whose form he existed?
Heracl. : Obviously he was distinct from another being and, since he was in the form of him who created all things, he was distinct from him.
Orig. : It is true then that there was a God, the Son of God, the only begotten of God, the firstborn of all creation, and that we need have no fear of saying that in one sense there are two Gods, while in another there is one God?
Heracl. : What you say is evident. But we affirm that God is the almighty, God without beginning, without end, containing all things and not contained by anything; and that his Word is the Son of the living God, God and man, through whom all things were made, God according to the spirit, man inasmuch as he was born of Mary.
Orig. : You do not appear to have answered my question. Explain what you mean. For perhaps I failed to follow you. Is the Father God?
Heracl. : Assuredly.
Orig. : Is the Son distinct from the Father?
Heracl. : Of course. How can he be the Son if he is also the Father?
Orig. : While being distinct from the Father is the Son himself also God?
Heracl. : He himself is also God.
Orig. : And do two Gods become a unity?
Heracl. : Yes.
Orig. : Do we confess two Gods?
Heracl. : Yes. The power is one.
Orig. : But as our brethren take offence at the statement that there are two Gods, we must formulate the doctrine carefully, and show in what sense they are two and in what sense the two are one God. …”
(Dialogues of Origen: with Heraclides and the bishops with him, concerning the Father and the Son and the Soul)
Origen - Dialog with Heracleides - Christian History
Rich R
Well-Known Member
What exactly do you mean by, "the divine nature of Christ?" I know 2 Peter 1:4 says all Christians partake of the divine nature. Do you take that to be the same as Christ's divine nature or something different? If different, how is it different?There are people who don't understand the Godhead (Trinity). It's not three gods in one God.
It's one God who co-exists as three distinct persons (yet not separated).
The Godhead (Trinity):
The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).
Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.
Here are a couple of quick points:
#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9-10, Daniel 7:13-14) (John 14:16)#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalms 2:1-12) (Psalms 45:6-7) (Psalms 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).
The most clearest verse in Scripture that describes the Trinity is 1 John 5:7.
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).
This verse appears in the King James Version but it is wrongfully removed from many Modern Translations.
Now, there are two wrong extremes people have made involving the Trinity.
#1. Modalism
(Which is a belief held by United Pentecostals).
This says that there are no distinctive persons within the Godhead. That God the Father just puts on a mask and pretends to be the Son; Others believe it says all three persons are smashed together whereby the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost do not have any kind of distinctiveness anymore. But the Bible makes it clear that the Father sent the Son to die for our sins (And it was not the Son sending the Father) (1 John 4:14). The Bible makes it clear that one cannot be forgiven if they speak a word against the Holy Spirit but yet, this is not the case if one speaks a word against the Son, though (Matthew 12:32).
#2. Tritheism
(Which is a belief held by Mormons).
This says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods. This is polytheism or the worship of more than one God. But the Bible makes it clear that the Lord our God is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Then there is the correct view of the Trinity:
The Lord our God exists as one God, but He exists as three distinct persons (i.e. The Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Ghost). All three persons co-existed as one God for all eternity. Also, in the Trinity, the Father and the Son can dwell within one another despite their distinctiveness as persons within the Godhead, too. For Jesus said He dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in Him (John 14:10) (John 17:21).
Romans 1:20 says,
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).
Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.Colors of White Light = Red, Blue, Green.Man's Formation = Dust, Mist (i.e. Water), Breadth of Life.Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.
Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).
Jesus had power as God.
#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).#5 Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).
God purchased us with His own blood:
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).
There is no Savior beside or next to God:
“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” (Isaiah 43:11).
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.” (Matthew 16:19).
Does Jesus Have a God?
(Explaining John 20:17):
Jesus saith unto her,
"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."" (John 20:17).
Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God?
In other words, does God have a God?
It was the divine nature that gave Jesus the power you mentioned. In John 14:12 Jesus told us we would do the works he did and even greater works. If God giving Jesus power makes him God, why doesn't the power Jesus gave us make us Jesus and therefore God?
The scriptures do in fact declare that Jesus does have a God (John 20:17, 2 Cor 11:31, Eph 1:3, Eph 4:6, 1 Pet 1:3, et.al). Jesus had many conversations with his Father. Who would be the God of God? Who would be the Father of God?
I don't like making God an "essence" which the trinity requires. For one thing, there is no such description of God in the actual scriptures. That term was introduced some 300 years after Jesus died, rose, and ascended at a council of men who were high affected by Plato and other Greek philosophiers. Many of the early "church fathers" made it their mission to join the Bible with Greek philosophy. That is an historical fact, as much of an historical fact as George Washington was the first president of the United States. God is not a thing, an essence. God is a loving, caring person.
While I can certainly appreciate your view of the trinity and Jesus' divine nature, I would think these questions are very important to answer in a manner that aligns with the scriptures. Thanks for your post!
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