Defending the Godhead (Trinity) & the Divine Nature of Christ

[Bible Highlighter]

I gave you the direct quote from the Jewish Tanakh...how have I changed anything? The Jews surely know how to translate their own language....? Before and after the Israelites were liberated from Egypt, do you think they needed to know that God existed?
When Moses asked about God's name, the reply was a statement of God's intentions towards his nation, chosen to form the direct family lineage to Abraham through which the promised seed would come.

John 8:58 has no connection with Exodus 3:14 at all. Do you know how many times Jesus said "I am" without ever saying that he was God...? Good grief! And 'I am' the one twisting scripture....it was twisted way before any of us were even thought of...


Sorry, but "you guys" accept what was twisted by Christendom centuries ago. You accept what is taught without even checking to see if it fits in with the rest of the scriptures. The Bible does not contradict itself, so it is you guys who have to provide the proof that what you believe about the trinity us not a satanic lie. I have seen no evidence so far that is not suggestion dressed up to look like fact.

You don't have one God in three persons, you swallowed three gods in one person....big difference.
If you have "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" that is three gods, and it is in clear breach of the first Commandment. We are to have "no other gods" but Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh and never once claimed to be. The holy spirit is never once said to be "God" either. It is "God's spirit"...it belongs to him. It has no personality or name. It is the exercise of God's power, given even to his son at his baptism. Jesus was just plain Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter as far as anyone knew


The silly games were played long before you or I were even born. The rot set in around the beginning of the second century when there were no apostles left to keep things on track....but as Jesus warned, "while men were sleeping" God's enemy sowed "weeds" of false Christianity and like weeds always do, they took over the whole arrangement. God allowed captivity in a greater Babylon in order for the fulfillment of prophesy to come to its conclusion...and here we are, situated in a world where "Christianity" is the most pathetic imitation of what Christ started that can be imagined. If Jesus said that "the gates of hades" would not prevail against his church....(Matthew 16:18) what is his "church" in our day? Is Christ hiding in amongst the disunited and bickering rabble that Christendom has created? Who is teaching the truth? Who are obeying Christ in all things?

It seems to me that the countries who claim to be "Christian" are the worst offenders, making excuses for why they won't obey what Christ commanded. They would rather be "friends of the world", sanctioning bloodshed rather than standing up for Christ's truth.
When Jesus comes as judge, any wonder he will say to the "many" "I NEVER KNEW YOU" condemning them as "workers of lawlessness". (Matthew 7:21-23) The Christianity passed off as such today is nothing but a sham....it does not resemble first century Christianity at all.
The emphasis was on preaching the gospel, which we don't really see the churches emphasizing.....most people who go to church do so out of a sense of duty and they have somehow been convinced that their Pastor knows it all for them and so they rarely do any real Bible study. So being short on Bible knowledge does not equip them to preach so they don't. That is somehow someone else's job.

There are reasons and excuses.....and we have to know the difference.

I trust the King James Bible and not some non-influential translation by Jews. Why? Because most people do not really know about your translation from the Jews and the Jews (as a nation) actually missed their own Messiah. The King James Bible was the standard long before Modern bibles even showed up and God is concerned with His truth going out unto all nations (According to the great commission). Modern Bibles attempted to dethrone the KJB but without a complete success.

Anyways, the King James Bible has no problem defending how Jesus is God. You can take that as a corruption if you like, but there is a KJB Onlyist here who denies the Trinity and how Jesus is God. So this just shows you it is a spiritual matter and not just simply a textual one alone. A veil is covered over the eyes of those who do not accept how God is revealed in Scripture plainly.

Anyways, peace and blessings be unto you in the Lord.
We are not going to convince each other. Only God can reveal the truth to you on this matter (if you are open to it someday).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Deedat: "Thow me one plassthe where Jesus said: I'm God, or worthship me..."

Like you, I firmly believe in the Triune Godhead

I am glad we can agree on something really important in the Bible.

May God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's see how "squeezy" it becomes then....?


Do they? :smlhmm:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” (Revelation 21:6-7) This reference is certainly to Jehovah, because he is God to the spirit anointed members of the body of Christ and they are "adopted" as his spiritual "sons". But in other verses, they are spoken of as Christ’s "brothers", not his sons, so the text is speaking of Jehovah, and it calls him “the Alpha and the Omega”. So when the Alpha and Omega is mentioned again in the very next chapter, why must the term suddenly shift to Christ Jesus instead of Jehovah? It doesn't.


Well, you must remember that the Revelation God gave to Jesus Christ was passed on to the apostle John by one of Christ’s angels, and that this angel sometimes spoke for Jehovah and sometimes for Christ Jesus; so we must watch for these changes and note them on the basis of content and context. If Jesus was God, why did he need his Father to give him the Revelation to pass on to John? He had returned to heaven quite some time previous to this.

The term “the First [pro’tos, not alpha] and the Last [e’skha·tos, not omega]” occurs at Revelation 1:17-18 and Revelation 2:8.
In these verses, the context shows that the one referred to died and later returned to life. Thus, these verses cannot refer to God because he has never died. (Habakkuk 1:12) But Jesus died and was resurrected. (Acts 3:13-15) He was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life in heaven, where he now lives “forever and ever.” (Revelation 1:18; Colossians 1:18) Jesus is the one who performs all resurrections thereafter. (John 6:40, 44; John 5:28-29) Therefore, he was the last one to be resurrected directly by his God. (Acts 10:40) In this sense, Jesus can properly be called “the First and the Last.”.....but it doesn't make him God.

Don't you find it strange that something as important as the very nature of God is not expressly stated by either the Father or the son?
Who did the Jews believe God to be? A threesome? or as Deuteronomy 6:4 stated....
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:" (Jewish Tanakh)

Who did Jesus' apostles say was their "one God"?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"If after all there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live." (NET)

Any ambiguity in those statements?

Revelation 3:12...
"The one who conquers I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will never depart from it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God that comes down out of heaven from my God, and my new name as well.

If Jesus is God and he returned to heaven to assume his former position in the "godhead", how can he call his Father "my God" if he is God?

He goes on in Revelation 3:14 to declare...."‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."
"Beginning" in Greek is "archē" and it means....
"1. beginning, origin;
a. used absolutely, of the beginning of all things: ἐν ἀρχῇ, John 1:1 (Strongs)
Citing John 1:1 "the beginning" in that famous verse is the beginning of creation because God himself is an eternal being with no beginning or end.
Jesus said that he was the "beginning of God's creation".

The son never once called himself "God".....he only ever claimed to be "the son of God"....never was he called "God the Son". (John 10:31-36)

Sorry, but your claims do not stand up to scrutiny....

This looks like a mutilation of Scripture so as to avoid the plain reading of the text. Just read it, and believe it.
I mean, did you find this article on the internet or did you start off thinking the wrong thing and desired to make the text say things a little differently in your favor? That’s what it sounds like what is going on here.

I say this because…

The Word WAS God according to John 1:1.
And the Word was made flesh (John 1:14).
And God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).
This same one was received up into glory (1 Timothy 3:16).
Jesus was received up into glory in Acts 1.
Jesus is God just based on these verses.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

There are people who don't understand the Godhead (Trinity). It's not three gods in one God.
It's one God who co-exists as three distinct persons (yet not separated).

The Godhead (Trinity):

The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9-10, Daniel 7:13-14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalms 2:1-12) (Psalms 45:6-7) (Psalms 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).​

The most clearest verse in Scripture that describes the Trinity is 1 John 5:7.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).​

This verse appears in the King James Version but it is wrongfully removed from many Modern Translations.

Now, there are two wrong extremes people have made involving the Trinity.

#1. Modalism
(Which is a belief held by United Pentecostals).

This says that there are no distinctive persons within the Godhead. That God the Father just puts on a mask and pretends to be the Son; Others believe it says all three persons are smashed together whereby the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost do not have any kind of distinctiveness anymore. But the Bible makes it clear that the Father sent the Son to die for our sins (And it was not the Son sending the Father) (1 John 4:14). The Bible makes it clear that one cannot be forgiven if they speak a word against the Holy Spirit but yet, this is not the case if one speaks a word against the Son, though (Matthew 12:32).​

#2. Tritheism
(Which is a belief held by Mormons).

This says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods. This is polytheism or the worship of more than one God. But the Bible makes it clear that the Lord our God is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4).​

Then there is the correct view of the Trinity:

The Lord our God exists as one God, but He exists as three distinct persons (i.e. The Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Ghost). All three persons co-existed as one God for all eternity. Also, in the Trinity, the Father and the Son can dwell within one another despite their distinctiveness as persons within the Godhead, too. For Jesus said He dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in Him (John 14:10) (John 17:21).

Romans 1:20 says,

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"​

Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).

Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
Colors of White Light = Red, Blue, Green.
Man's Formation = Dust, Mist (i.e. Water), Breadth of Life.
Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.​

Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

Jesus had power as God.

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).​

God purchased us with His own blood:

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).​

There is no Savior beside or next to God:

“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” (Isaiah 43:11).​

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.” (Matthew 16:19).

Does Jesus Have a God?

(Explaining John 20:17):

Jesus saith unto her,

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."" (John 20:17).​

Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God?
In other words, does God have a God?

Well, in the beginning of the gospel of John, it says this...

John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. The same was in the beginning with God."

In other words, John 20:17 is speaking in a similar way as John 1:1. The Word (Jesus - who is God) was with God the Father.

So when Jesus says... "I ascend unto... my God..." He is acknowledging that He is ascending to the Father who is God in essence in being (as a part of the plurality of the Godhead).

Yet, how can God have a God? Doesn't that imply a possession?
Yes, but Jesus says elsewhere, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Also, when Jesus uses the word "my" in the words "my God" He is also referring to whom He always obeys, too (Sort of like how a loyal servant always obeys His ruling King).

For Jesus says elsewhere, "... for I do always those things that please him." (John 8:29).
Also, when Jesus claimed to be God, and the Pharisees wanted to kill him for it, Jesus quoted Old Testament Scripture that says, "ye are gods." (i.e. gods = kings) as a way of protecting His mission in going to the cross (John 10:34).

Holy Spirit is God:

The Holy Spirit is called God:

“Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.” (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4).

The Holy Spirit is on equal level with being God:

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (Matthew 28:19).

The Holy Spirit is eternal:

“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Hebrews 9:14).

The Holy Spirit is a person:

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;” (John 14:16).

The Holy Spirit can be grieved:

“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” (Ephesians 4:30).

The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed:

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matthew 12:32).

Important Note: Only God can be blasphemed.

The Father Sent The Holy Spirit

The Bible says that God the Father sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus said.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you (John 14:26).

The Father will send the Holy Spirit, not Himself, to help believers.

There Is A Difference Between The Father And The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit does the will of God the Father. Paul wrote.

And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will (Romans 8:27).

Source used for Holy Spirit being distinct from the Father:

Is the Holy Spirit a Distinct Person from God the Father?

(Note: While I agree with this article by this author, that does not mean I agree with everything this author or website says).

Is there anything that is not of God?

As for 1 in three separate, no.
If I'm a wife,mother,and employee, I'm not 1 woman in three separate persons. Those three identities are me.
Nothing changes when it's God in that same scenario. God is a title.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Grace, peace, and love to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is GOD).

Brother, blessings and love to you also in Jesus’ name. It really broke my heart to respond to you the way I did. Every fiber in me didn’t want me not to argue with you in the manner that I did. But I have disciplined my body as to not let it influence my judgment when it comes to standing to the truth (maybe to a fault at times).

Look, I get it. There is strong inference to Christ’s deity in the scripture. But I leave this as something that every man should accept it as far as he is able to.

What bothers me about the trinity is when some of the brethren make it an issue to divide over. It doesn’t really bother me that it is accepted.

Love to you as well brother.

I was a huge Star Trek fan myself before becoming a Christian as well, btw.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Brother, blessings and love to you also in Jesus’ name. It really broke my heart to respond to you the way I did. Every fiber in me didn’t want me not to argue with you in the manner that I did. But I have disciplined my body as to not let it influence my judgment when it comes to standing to the truth (maybe to a fault at times).

Look, I get it. There is strong inference to Christ’s deity in the scripture. But I leave this as something that every man should accept it as far as he is able to.

What bothers me about the trinity is when some of the brethren make it an issue to divide over. It doesn’t really bother me that it is accepted.

Love to you as well brother.

I was a huge Star Trek fan myself before becoming a Christian as well, btw.

Thank you for the olive branch of peace (even if we disagree strongly on this topic).
I think some things it is best to agree to disagree in love and move on.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.
It’s a spiritual matter indeed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This looks like a mutilation of Scripture so as to avoid the plain reading of the text. Just read it, and believe it.
I mean, did you find this article on the internet or did you start off thinking the wrong thing and desired to make the text say things a little differently in your favor? That’s what it sounds like what is going on here.

"Looks like"..."Sounds like"? Hmmmm....that is hardly presenting facts now, is it? :smlhmm:
I mean if God never said it, and Christ never said it, and the apostles clearly stated that their "one God" was "the Father"....what have you got apart from interpreting ambiguous verses to say what Christ never taught?

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why there is no clear statement of a trinity? If it is such an important belief, why is clear identification missing? Circumstantial evidence can be horribly misconstrued. And we have this enemy who wants to feed us lies, dressed up as truth.
The one thing we can rely on is in John 6:44 and 65....
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. . . . . “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

I say this because…

The Word WAS God according to John 1:1.

What does "theos" mean in the Greek scriptures? Please give me a well informed explanation and definition of that word from a Greek Interlinear.
Then you might see what the Word actually was.

And the Word was made flesh (John 1:14).

Really bad deduction my dear Watson.... The Word was not "ho theos"....he was just "theos" which doesn't mean he was "God".

And God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).
This same one was received up into glory (1 Timothy 3:16).

I know you love the old KJV, but it is one of the most biased translation towards the trinity that exists.

The Mounce Interlinear translates word for word 1Timothy 3:16.... Greek to English....
"And kai undeniably homologoumenōs great megas is eimi the ho mystery mystērion of ho godliness eusebeia, who hos was revealed phaneroō in en flesh sarx, was vindicated dikaioō in en spirit pneuma, appeared horaō to angels angelos; was preached kēryssō among en the nations ethnos, was believed pisteuō in en the world kosmos, was taken analambanō up in en glory doxa."

Only in the KJV is "GOD" added to that verse. The "mystery of godliness" was revealed in Jesus....who was taken up to heaven after he finished his earthly assignment. He told Mary Magdalene....“Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” (John 20:17) How could Jesus say that if he was God?

Who is "the only true God" who "sent" Jesus to give his life for mankind? (John 17:3)

If Jesus was God then as an immortal, God cannot die. Jesus did not need to be God to act as their redeemer....all he had to be was the equivalent of Adam and pay the price for getting his children released from the slavery that he was responsible for....condemned to a life of sin and death, through no fault of their own.
I am amazed that most people have no idea how redemption works. If Jesus was God then the price paid was way too high, not to mention, impossible....it would be the equivalent to using 100 million cans of bug spray to kill one mosquito.

Jesus was received up into glory in Acts 1.

Who was it that resurrected Jesus?
Hebrews 10:12-13...speaking of Jesus Paul said....
"but he, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet."
This is alluding to Psalm 110:1....so can you tell me how God sits next to himself, to wait for himself to do something for himself......?

Jesus is God just based on these verses.

Sorry, but I would beg to differ

....the scriptures you quote do not say to me what they say to you.....although they used to before I had an in depth Bible study of my own.....but now research is what I relish. What has come to light through that research is staggering because most people have no idea how far Christendom has strayed from the original teachings of Christ and the apostles.....just as the Jews had no idea how much human tradition dictated their beliefs when Jesus arrived the first time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Looks like"..."Sounds like"? Hmmmm....that is hardly presenting facts now, is it? :smlhmm:
I mean if God never said it, and Christ never said it, and the apostles clearly stated that their "one God" was "the Father"....what have you got apart from interpreting ambiguous verses to say what Christ never taught?

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why there is no clear statement of a trinity? If it is such an important belief, why is clear identification missing? Circumstantial evidence can be horribly misconstrued. And we have this enemy who wants to feed us lies, dressed up as truth.
The one thing we can rely on is in John 6:44 and 65....
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. . . . . “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


What does "theos" mean in the Greek scriptures? Please give me a well informed explanation and definition of that word from a Greek Interlinear.
Then you might see what the Word actually was.


Really bad deduction my dear Watson.... The Word was not "ho theos"....he was just "theos" which doesn't mean he was "God".


I know you love the old KJV, but it is one of the most biased translation towards the trinity that exists.

The Mounce Interlinear translates word for word 1Timothy 3:16.... Greek to English....
"And kai undeniably homologoumenōs great megas is eimi the ho mystery mystērion of ho godliness eusebeia, who hos was revealed phaneroō in en flesh sarx, was vindicated dikaioō in en spirit pneuma, appeared horaō to angels angelos; was preached kēryssō among en the nations ethnos, was believed pisteuō in en the world kosmos, was taken analambanō up in en glory doxa."

Only in the KJV is "GOD" added to that verse. The "mystery of godliness" was revealed in Jesus....who was taken up to heaven after he finished his earthly assignment. He told Mary Magdalene....“Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” (John 20:17) How could Jesus say that if he was God?

Who is "the only true God" who "sent" Jesus to give his life for mankind? (John 17:3)

If Jesus was God then as an immortal, God cannot die. Jesus did not need to be God to act as their redeemer....all he had to be was the equivalent of Adam and pay the price for getting his children released from the slavery that he was responsible for....condemned to a life of sin and death, through no fault of their own.
I am amazed that most people have no idea how redemption works. If Jesus was God then the price paid was way too high, not to mention, impossible....it would be the equivalent to using 100 million cans of bug spray to kill one mosquito.


Who was it that resurrected Jesus?
Hebrews 10:12-13...speaking of Jesus Paul said....
"but he, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet."
This is alluding to Psalm 110:1....so can you tell me how God sits next to himself, to wait for himself to do something for himself......?

Sorry, but I would beg to differ

....the scriptures you quote do not say to me what they say to you.....although they used to before I had an in depth Bible study of my own.....but now research is what I relish. What has come to light through that research is staggering because most people have no idea how far Christendom has strayed from the original teachings of Christ and the apostles.....just as the Jews had no idea how much human tradition dictated their beliefs when Jesus arrived the first time.

There is a clear statement of the Trinity. It’s called Godhead and it’s used three times in the King James Bible and means Trinity based on the context. I am sure you don’t agree because you got your Jewish translation held up high to defend your views.

Then there is the description of the Trinity in 1 John 5:7. But I know many in the Anti-Trinitarian camp and even the Trinity camp do not accept this verse in the Bible based on so called Modern scholarship. However, the many errors of Modern scholarship is proof it belongs in my Bible.

Then there are things like Genesis 1 where God says… let us make man in our image and our likeness.

Three times God refers to Himself in the plural. But I am sure you have an ace up your sleeve to not believe the obvious and so as to scramble the pattern of the Trinity taught to us in Scripture.

The problem I have with your approach is that it appears like you are approaching the text with a presupposition already in place about what you believe about how God is, and therefore you must alter the text to fit that belief. I just believe verses like 1 John 5:7. I just believe verses like John 1:1, and John 1:14, and 1 Timothy 3:16. There is no agenda for me to change them to fit a belief I have built in my mind already. I just read the Bible, and believe it. This is something that I don’t believe you are doing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is a clear statement of the Trinity. It’s called Godhead and it’s used three times in the King James Bible and means Trinity based on the context. I am sure you don’t agree because you got your Jewish translation held up high to defend your views.

Then there is the description of the Trinity in 1 John 5:7. But I know many in the Anti-Trinitarian camp and even the Trinity camp do not accept this verse in the Bible based on so called Modern scholarship. However, the many errors of Modern scholarship is proof it belongs in my Bible.

Then there are things like Genesis 1 where God says… let us make man in our image and our likeness.

Three times God refers to Himself in the plural. But I am sure you have an ace up your sleeve to not believe the obvious and so as to scramble the pattern of the Trinity taught to us in Scripture.

The problem I have with your approach is that it appears like you are approaching the text with a presupposition already in place about what you believe about how God is, and therefore you must alter the text to fit that belief. I just believe verses like 1 John 5:7. I just believe verses like John 1:1, and John 1:14, and 1 Timothy 3:16. There is no agenda for me to change them to fit a belief I have built in my mind already. I just read the Bible, and believe it. This is something that I don’t believe you are doing.

Excuse me, but do you not approach the text in exactly the same way from your own perspective? You have to read it all with a trinitarian bias because that is what you believe is true. Pots can't call kettles, 'black'. The "pro-trinitarian" camp does exactly the same thing as you accuse us of doing....only in reverse....
All you have are obscure, ambiguous verses....no direct statements....but you want to see a trinity....and so you do. How are you any different?

I asked you a range of questions based on what the scriptures actually say rather than what you want them to say.....and yet you did not address a single one of them. My quotes were direct statements from Jesus and his apostles....look them up in your KJV and in context, see what they say.
Here is 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 from the KJV...
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

How about John 17:3...? Jesus prayed...
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Do these say something different to the translation I used? Now its my turn to ask you to just read what it says....

There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible because there is no such thing as a godhead in scripture. Trinitarians made it up.
Like the 'immortal soul' and 'hellfire' teachings...these ideas are entirely missing from the scriptures. All the Bible writers were Jewish and only had access to Jewish scripture. Jesus and the apostles used the Hebrew scriptures to teach the Jews about who Jesus was.

I once believed what you believe, but after much research I see just how far Christendom has strayed from the teachings of the Master. So much human tradition is passed off as doctrine....like it was in Jesus' day. (Matthew 15:7-9)

How would you describe a "non-denominational Christian"? Because I am often bemused by that definition.....does it basically mean that you are not confined to the teachings of any particular church and therefore if you hold to the basic tenets as Christendom teaches them, then the other details don't matter...? You can just make them up as you go along or whatever you choose to throw into the mix?

I also see in your statement of faith that you believe that works are not necessary for salvation....do you think that Ephesians 2:8-9 is in conflict with James 2:18-20, 24, 26...
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. . . .

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. . . . For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (KJV)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Excuse me, but do you not approach the text in exactly the same way from your own perspective? You have to read it all with a trinitarian bias because that is what you believe is true. Pots can't call kettles, 'black'. The "pro-trinitarian" camp does exactly the same thing as you accuse us of doing....only in reverse....
All you have are obscure, ambiguous verses....no direct statements....but you want to see a trinity....and so you do. How are you any different?

It’s different because I am not looking change the text at every turn.
John 1:1 where it says The Word WAS GOD is true.
Jesus is the Word, and thus Jesus is GOD.

I asked you a range of questions based on what the scriptures actually say rather than what you want them to say.....and yet you did not address a single one of them. My quotes were direct statements from Jesus and his apostles....look them up in your KJV and in context, see what they say.
Here is 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 from the KJV...
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Peter says this of Paul’s writings:

2 Peter 3:16 (NLT)
“speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.”

For example: Many think Paul taught that works of faith are not a part of God’s plan of salvation by pointing to Ephesians 2:8-9. But Paul was referring to Initial Salvation (Ephesians 2:1) because Paul also says vain deceivers can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work Titus 1:16, and that we can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel (unbeliever) if we provide not for our own (which is a good work) (1 Timothy 5:8).

So many can quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and make it look like no works are required of us by God when this is not the case. So they are twisting Paul’s words by ignoring his words elsewhere or by ignoring other Scripture verses (not written by Paul).

No offense, but the same is true when you quote Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.

There is no contradiction with 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 when we compare the the Trinity taught to us with the word Godhead appearing three times in the King James Bible, and with 1 John 5:7, etcetera.

It is true that there is one God the Father. There is only one God the Father in the triune Godhead. It’s not saying that Jesus is not God because even God the Father declared that Jesus is God.

Hebrews 1:8
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

It is also true that there is one Lord Jesus Christ. For there is one Lord Jesus Christ (the Word) in the triune Godhead. They all make up one God (1 John 5:7). Yet, they each are distinct persons. That’s the Godhead or the Trinity. Many fail to understand the Trinity and because of their own lack of understanding it, that is why they seek to deny it in the Holly Bible.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 is not saying that Jesus is not God, and the Father cannot be referred to as the Lord. For do you not even believe that the Father can be referred to as Lord?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How about John 17:3...? Jesus prayed...
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

John 17:3
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”

I believe one can read the text like this:

John 17:3
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee [you, God the Father] the only true God [the Godhead or Trinity - 1 John 5:7], and Jesus Christ [the Word], whom thou hast sent”

Why would I read it like that?

Well, because 1 John 5:20 says Jesus is the true God.

1 John 5:20
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”

"Jesus saith unto her,
"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.""
(John 20:17).

Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God?
In other words, does God have a God?

Well, in the beginning of the gospel of John, it says this...

John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. The same was in the beginning with God."

In other words, John 20:17 is speaking in a similar way as John 1:1. The Word (Jesus - who is God) was with God the Father.

So when Jesus says... "I ascend unto... my God..." He is acknowledging that He is ascending to the Father who is God in essence in being (as a part of the plurality of the Godhead).

Yet, how can God have a God? Doesn't that imply a possession?
Yes, but Jesus says elsewhere, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Also, when Jesus uses the word "my" in the words "my God" He is also referring to whom He always obeys, too (Sort of like how a loyal servant always obeys His ruling King).

For Jesus says elsewhere, "... for I do always those things that please him." (John 8:29).
Also, when Jesus claimed to be God, and the Pharisees wanted to kill him for it, Jesus quoted Old Testament Scripture that says, "ye are gods." (i.e. gods = kings) as a way of protecting His mission in going to the cross (John 10:34).

Anyways, confusion on this topic arises because people need to know that the Lord our God is one God and yet He also has a plural nature to Him, as well.

For the Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

But even if John 17:3 is not read according to my commentary above (and I am wrong), it would not be incorrect of Jesus to call God the Father the only true God because Jesus is one with the Father making Him on equal footing that He is also the true God, as well. In fact, as I already pointed out 1 John 5:20 declares Jesus as the true God, too. This is why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for saying He is one with the Father.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible because there is no such thing as a godhead in scripture. Trinitarians made it up.

See. This is what I am talking about. You say that the Bible itself is corrupted as an attempt to defend your belief.
I am not looking to change the established Bible that was the primary Bible to the English speaking world for hundreds of years (long before Modern bibles showed up). You choose some odd ball Jewish translation that is a Bible that had no impact upon the Gentiles through history and still doesn’t today. Why? To defend your odd view of God that you prefer.

Think. Jesus did not say in the great commission to only go to the Jews still. Jesus said to make disciples in all nations and this included the Gentiles. God’s scope of salvation went out to the Gentiles (of which we see with Cornelius). So it makes sense that God would continue with that mission (i.e. the great commission).

Like the 'immortal soul' and 'hellfire' teachings...these ideas are entirely missing from the scriptures. All the Bible writers were Jewish and only had access to Jewish scripture. Jesus and the apostles used the Hebrew scriptures to teach the Jews about who Jesus was.

I don’t believe the soul is automatically immortal. No.
I don’t believe in Eternal Torment, but I do believe the Bible teaches that there is a literal hell.
But the Bible does not teach that hell is a place of screaming torment. It is not a good place anyone should want to be, but the rich man was not screaming uncontrollably in pain there.
My official position on the Lake of Fire and hell is called “Dualistic Conditional Immortality.” This is the view that the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence in the Lake of Fire, but yet, hell is also real place of torment where the wicked go before they are judged and destroyed.

Anyways, I am not a new believer or Christian. Of course Jesus was a Jew and the 12 disciples were Jewish. That’s not news to anyone who has studied the Bible for any length of time.

I once believed what you believe, but after much research I see just how far Christendom has strayed from the teachings of the Master. So much human tradition is passed off as doctrine....like it was in Jesus' day. (Matthew 15:7-9)

The problem is that anyone who just picks up the Bible is deceived unless they have your unpopular Jewish translation.
The problem is that the great commission was not something whereby God just kept things exclusively Jewish but salvation went out to the Gentiles after the Jews rejected their Messiah and after Pentecost.

How would you describe a "non-denominational Christian"? Because I am often bemused by that definition.....does it basically mean that you are not confined to the teachings of any particular church and therefore if you hold to the basic tenets as Christendom teaches them, then the other details don't matter...? You can just make them up as you go along or whatever you choose to throw into the mix?

As for a non-denominational Christian: Why are you asking me things that you can research on the internet?
My guess is by your criticism: You are a part of some kind of denomination. If so, which one?
The problem I have seen with denominations is that there is always some kind of error or doctrine that is off track or false.

I also see in your statement of faith that you believe that works are not necessary for salvation....do you think that Ephesians 2:8-9 is in conflict with James 2:18-20, 24, 26...
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. . . .

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. . . . For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (KJV)

And this just goes to show you that you did not read my statement of faith correctly. I believe we are saved by two aspects of salvation.

#1. We are saved by God’s grace through faith INITIALLY without works.
#2. We are saved in the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit which would include holy living, and doing works of faith (After we are saved by God’s grace).

So yes. I believe works of faith are a part of God’s plan of salvation, but this is only AFTER we are saved by God’s grace without works in our INITIAL Salvation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So many can quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and make it look like no works are required of us by God when this is not the case. So they are twisting Paul’s words by ignoring his words elsewhere or by ignoring other Scripture verses (not written by Paul).

No offense, but the same is true when you quote Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.

There is no contradiction with 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 when we compare the the Trinity taught to us with the word Godhead appearing three times in the King James Bible, and with 1 John 5:7, etcetera.

Again, you do what you accuse others of doing.....you are twisting the scripture to support your belief. You are reading into the words things that are not there except in your mind.

Since there is no direct statement that God is a trinity of three distinct persons in one godhead, you have no grounds to assume that it is true except by making the Bible say what you want it to by inference. Now you are twisting scripture.

1 John 5:7 does not say what the KJV says it does....
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." and the next verse says..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
The highlighted part in verse 7 does not appear as it is written in the KJV, in the earliest manuscripts. It is missing, which is why the more accurate translations omit it.

1 John 5:7 and 1 Timothy 3:16 are two corruptions in the KJV but they are not the only ones.
An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture - Wikipedia

This later addition to verse 7 was to prop up a false doctrine. Only those who stick to the KJV translations render that verse as it appears there.
The way it is rendered in more modern translations which rely on better understanding and study of the ancient manuscripts is more accurate.
Time to bury that old dinosaur.....it has no relevance in a world that speaks modern English.

It is true that there is one God the Father. There is only one God the Father in the triune Godhead.

It is also true that there is one Lord Jesus Christ. For there is one Lord Jesus Christ (the Word) in the triune Godhead. They all make up one God (1 John 5:7). Yet, they each are distinct persons. That’s the Godhead or the Trinity. Many fail to understand the Trinity and because of their own lack of understanding it, that is why they seek to deny it in the Holly Bible.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 is not saying that Jesus is not God, and the Father cannot be referred to as the Lord. For do you not even believe that the Father can be referred to as Lord?

You are twisting the scriptures again to insert a trinity that doesn't exist. The addition to 1 John 5:7 is not legitimate scripture. There is no such statement in the entire Bible.

It’s not saying that Jesus is not God because even God the Father declared that Jesus is God.

Hebrews 1:8
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

I wanted to single this statement out to address on its own....

Firstly, please note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, the very next verse sates.... “God, your God, anointed you.” Which makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

And secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quotation from Psalms 45:6-7, which was originally addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God, and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God. The apostles never said that Jesus was Almighty God.

Remember how I asked you to research the word "theos" (god in Greek) and tell me what it means? Did you?

Showing you how you rely on an unreliable Bible translation and twist the scriptures to force the trinity into them, I know is probably pointless, but please consider what has been brought to your attention.....God would have told us in no uncertain terms if he was a three in one godhead....but he NEVER did, nor did Jesus ever say that he was God incarnate. Such an important belief would never have been shrouded in controversy. God would have made it clear as crystal, meaning that no arguments could ever have been raised against it. The arguments have been raging for centuries.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, you do what you accuse others of doing.....you are twisting the scripture to support your belief. You are reading into the words things that are not there except in your mind.

Since there is no direct statement that God is a trinity of three distinct persons in one godhead, you have no grounds to assume that it is true except by making the Bible say what you want it to by inference. Now you are twisting scripture.

1 John 5:7 does not say what the KJV says it does....
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." and the next verse says..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
The highlighted part in verse 7 does not appear as it is written in the KJV, in the earliest manuscripts. It is missing, which is why the more accurate translations omit it.

1 John 5:7 and 1 Timothy 3:16 are two corruptions in the KJV but they are not the only ones.
An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture - Wikipedia

This later addition to verse 7 was to prop up a false doctrine. Only those who stick to the KJV translations render that verse as it appears there.
The way it is rendered in more modern translations which rely on better understanding and study of the ancient manuscripts is more accurate.
Time to bury that old dinosaur.....it has no relevance in a world that speaks modern English.


You are twisting the scriptures again to insert a trinity that doesn't exist. The addition to 1 John 5:7 is not legitimate scripture. There is no such statement in the entire Bible.


I wanted to single this statement out to address on its own....

Firstly, please note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, the very next verse sates.... “God, your God, anointed you.” Which makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

And secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quotation from Psalms 45:6-7, which was originally addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God, and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God. The apostles never said that Jesus was Almighty God.

Remember how I asked you to research the word "theos" (god in Greek) and tell me what it means? Did you?

Showing you how you rely on an unreliable Bible translation and twist the scriptures to force the trinity into them. I know is probably pointless, but please consider what has been brought to your attention.....God would have told us in no uncertain terms if he was a three in one godhead....but he NEVER did, nor did Jesus ever say that he was God incarnate. Such an important belief would never have been shrouded in controversy. God would have made it clear as crystal, meaning that no arguments could ever have been raised against it. The arguments have been raging for centuries.

You are referring to the Alexandrian manuscripts which come from the birthplace of Arianism. Just Google the origin of Arianism and Alexandria comes up. All Modern bibles are based upon the Alexandrian manuscripts which attack doctrine for the worse and not for the better (You can check out the changed doctrine here, and here).

In addition, all Modern bibles that use the Alexandrian manuscripts were under the direct influence of the Vatican. This is a well documented fact if you study the origins of the King James Bible vs. the origins of Modern Bibles. But in case you missed the lesson, here is a post of mine proving the Vatican’s influence upon all Modern bibles today.

Most of all your Modern Bibles have been corrupted by Rome.

You can check out page 21 here of the 14 changes in Modern Bibles that favor the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.keithpiper.org/storage/books/NIV-Omissions-Cimatu-7July2018-pdf.pdf

Modern bibles have the devil’s name in them where they don’t belong.
Modern bibles have blatant errors in them.
Modern bibles have watered down holy living in various verses.
The list of problem in Modern Bibles is extreme.
This makes sense because they are based on the corrupted Alexandrian manuscripts to begin with.

Psalms 11:3 says,
“If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?”

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe one can read the text like this:

Why would I read it like that?

Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God?
In other words, does God have a God?

In other words, John 20:17 is speaking in a similar way as John 1:1. The Word (Jesus - who is God) was with God the Father.

So when Jesus says... "I ascend unto... my God..." He is acknowledging that He is ascending to the Father who is God in essence in being (as a part of the plurality of the Godhead).

Yet, how can God have a God? Doesn't that imply a possession?
Yes, but Jesus says elsewhere, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Also, when Jesus uses the word "my" in the words "my God" He is also referring to whom He always obeys, too (Sort of like how a loyal servant always obeys His ruling King).

Anyways, confusion on this topic arises because people need to know that the Lord our God is one God and yet He also has a plural nature to Him, as well.

For the Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Look at what you have done here....exactly what you accuse me of doing....you rewrite the scripture in your own mind to support what you believe. You insert your own interpretation to make it say what you want it to say. Are you really that blind?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.

Ever heard of the plural of majesty? The "Royal WE"?
God also had assistance in creation...a "master workman" who was working at his side during the whole process. (Proverbs 8:30-31)
In Genesis the Creator uses the agency of the son to do the creating. Colossians1:15-17 tells us that creation came "through" the son, but there is only one Creator who is the Father. John 1:3 says the same thing in case you missed it.

#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).

None of these state a plurality of God. The existence of the Father, son and holy spirit cannot be in dispute...what is in disputer is that they all form part of a 'godhead' making them all co-equal and co-eternal. Nowhere does the Bible state this.
John 14:28..."Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." (KJV)
Where is the equality?
In John 17:3 where Jesus identifies his Father as "the only true God" and says that we must know him "and the one he sent forth Jesus Christ" in order to attain eternal life....but where is the third person of the trinity? Why is knowing the holy spirit not necessary for eternal life?

#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).

None of these say that the three are one god.

#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)

The crowning of God's son as King of his Kingdom was foretold in Daniel 7 and the scene that Daniel saw was the son being brought before the throne of his Father and having authority bestowed upon him. This is reflected in Revelation 12:7-12. Satan is evicted from heaven down to the earth as Christ's first act as King....only then is he authorized by his Father to carry out his Kingship.

Matthew 28:19-20 also refers to Jesus receiving authority from his Father.....which shows that his Father is greater than he is.
Jesus is referred to as "God's holy servant" (Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?

#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)

Really?
"When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. 22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
Please tell me where it states that these are members of the "godhead".....don't you see what you are doing? You are implying things that are not stated because its what you want the words to say....

#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).

If all three are co-equal and co-eternal then their will must of necessity be the same.....how can one part of God have a different will to his equal self......can you not see the nonsense?

#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

OK now this is really stretching things.....God has conversations with himself? Seriously, I don't know how ridiculous things have to get before any of you start to question what was a Roman Catholic invention to begin with, but the more you write, the sillier it becomes.

But even if John 17:3 is not read according to my commentary above (and I am wrong), it would not be incorrect of Jesus to call God the Father the only true God because Jesus is one with the Father making Him on equal footing that He is also the true God, as well. In fact, as I already pointed out 1 John 5:20 declares Jesus as the true God, too. This is why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for saying He is one with the Father.

Would you like to read that verse again...?
"And we know that the Son of God [Jesus] is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, [the Father] and we are in him that is true, [the Father] even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, [the Father] and eternal life." (KJV)

It is saying the exact opposite of what you think it is saying....There is a certain kind of blindness that I see with trinitarians that does not allow them to see past what they have been taught (indoctrinated) as the truth.....there is no truth in the trinity.....it is sham doctrine from the "weeds" of Jesus parable, designed to make God into something he never was. To put other "gods" in the Father's place is a breach of the first Commandment...that is how serious this issue is.

The Jews had no trinity in their scripture and the faithful men and women of old never believed that God was anything other than what he said he was in Deuteronomy 6:4....."ONE GOD" not three. The Hebrew scriptures are what Jesus and his apostles taught from, because Christ was in them, prophesied from Genesis onward with features that he had to fulfill to prove who he was. He fulfilled every single one of them.

 

[Helen]

The arrogance that dares to believe that God or His Word , “needs “ a DEFENCE!! !!

 

[Aunty Jane]

The arrogance that dares to believe that God or His Word , “needs “ a DEFENCE!! !!

Its not God or his word that needs defending.....it is the corrupted truth taught by the "weeds" of Christendom....who hijacked Christianity in the early centuries and formed it into something unrecognizable by the very one they claim as their "Lord". Any wonder Jesus says "I never knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Again, you are forcing an interpretation that does not exist. Yes, God does own everything, but to say it is exclusively yours in a singular sense is different. Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible speak of singular things like somebody’s blood or saliva or eyes are exclusively in the possession of the Lord’s possession. It sounds like you are fighting the text because you don’t like it. As I pointed out to you before, God does not take possession of materials used in the high places involving Baal in Jeremiah 19:5. God does not call the high places of Baal as his places (even though God made all things in the universe including the materials used for the high places that the men used to falsely worship Baal). God does not take ownership to false statues or idols and yet He did make the materials that makes up those idols that men shaped with their hands to falsely worship.

As a trinitarian, you are in absolutely no position to accuse someone else of forcing their personal interpretations into the text or fighting passages that contradict their belief. That's all a trinitarian can resort to in order to pass of this counterfeit doctrine off as being biblical.

One of God's covering angels, Gabriel, tells us that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, but the power of God(Luk. 1:35). And what do trintarians say? "He's wrong, the Holy Spirit is a Person!". The Bible says that Jesus is not His Father's equal(Exo. 20:12, Jhn 8:29, 10:29, 13:16, 14:28, 15:20, 1 Cor. 11:3, Rev. 1:1, etc.). But what do trinitarians say? "I'll just act like those passages are saying something else or completely disregard their existence because it doesn't convenience my beliefs".

It pains trinitarians to simply admit that they're wrong because they're too proud to admit that there is a very good chance that they were conned into believing something that was not true. Christians shouldn't be ashamed of at least admitting to themselves that they were wrong about something. It's the only way that they're going to grow in the knowledge of God. I've had to do it more times than i can count.

Nobody should be trying zealously defending false beliefs/traditions because of intellectual vanity or because they want to fit in with other professing Christians. That's what people do when they care more about their beliefs than the truth. A person should prioritize learning and practicing the truth over fitting in with other deceived people.

That's the problem with Catholics and Protestants in a nutshell: fitting in with other deceived people is more important to them than practicing or even believing the truth. And they wonder why human civilization is collapsing around them while their churches look like the rest of the world: those religions have absolutely failed everybody, including their own adherents, by preaching lies that are apathetically passed off as truth.

 

[Johann]

Who is God talking to? Proverbs 8:30-31 explains.....
"Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was His delight daily,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of mankind."
This is God's son speaking as "wisdom personified", the one "through whom" God created all things, it means that Jesus has a special connection to the human race, having had a hand in their creation. (Colossians 1:15-17) All things were made "through" him...do you understand the concept of agency?


That is not the way that verse reads in Greek, hence why original words studies are so important.

Here is that verse in a Greek Interlinear....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos." (Mounce)

There is one little word that is omitted in the English translation, that belongs in that verse. That little word "ho" means "the" and you can see that it is translated in every other instance but one.....and that is in the identification of God himself. The Jews had refrained from uttering the divine name for a long time before Jesus walked the earth, so in Greek the word "theos" is translated "god" and it means "any god, goddess, deity or divine personage". So calling Jesus "theos" doesn't make him Yahweh. The Greeks used the definite article "the" to differentiate the one nameless God of the Jews from any other divine personage, including Jesus. They were polytheists and all their gods had names.
Satan is called "the god (theos) of this world"...is he Yahweh?

Jesus is therefore not identified in John 1:1 as "the god"...but just as "theos", which in other scripture means "a god or divine personage". No one can deny that Christ was "divine", but he was never said to be Almighty God. He worshipped his Father and gave him the glory he deserved without taking any of it for himself. Even after his return to heaven, Jesus referred to his Father as "my God". (Revelation 3:14)

"The Word (Logos) was with God", so how can he BE God? It says that "the Word was made flesh", not that God was made flesh.




If you do some research you will see that this is a spurious verse that was never in the Bible at all, but added later to support a trinity.

Read it and the following verse in other English translations and see that what you are reading is not even there....
"For there are three witness bearers: 8 the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."


There is no denying that "Father, son and holy spirit" were present at Jesus' baptism and indeed at the baptism of all Christians who willingly submit to enter into a special relationship with God "through" Jesus Christ in order to obtain salvation. (Matthew 28:19-20)
It doesn't mean that there are three 'people'.....it simply means that we need to recognize the role that each one plays in our baptism and in our salvation.


There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible....it is a word made up by trinitarians.

I mean, did you find this article on the internet o

Hebrews 1:8
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Colossians 2:9 from Mounce Interlinear...
"For hoti in en him autos the ho whole pas fullness plērōma of ho deity theotēs dwells katoikeō in bodily sōmatikōs form."

This word theotēs is not "godhead" but "deity" or "divinity"....the fullness of who God is, was in Jesus. As Paul said in Colossians 1:15....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"....
This is not saying that Jesus is God, but saying that he was the first or "beginning of God's creation". (Revelation 3:12)

Screeds of copy and paste...seriously? This is one subject that has been done to death....but do you know why?
Did you know that there is not a single verse where either God or Jesus claimed that the son is "God"? NOT ONE.

Do some study of the word "theos" in Greek and tell me what it means.....:smlhmm:

Jesus is therefore not identified in John 1:1 as "the god"...but just as "theos", which in other scripture means "a god or divine personage". No one can deny that Christ was "divine", but he was never said to be Almighty God.

The Word WAS God according to John 1:1.
And the Word was made flesh (John 1:14).
And God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).
This same one was received up into glory (1 Timothy 3:16).
Jesus was received up into glory in Acts 1.
Jesus is God just based on these verses.

There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible because there is no such thing as a godhead in scripture. Trinitarians made it up.

The Jews had no trinity in their scripture

Incorrect

The Doctrine of the Trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures and Ancient Rabbis

“HaAdam” in Hebrew,
and that verse shows Man as
having both singularity and
plurality (oto and otam, Gn
1:27), thus reflecting his
Maker, Elohim, Who also has
singularity and plurality in
His complexity (compare
echad in Gn 2:24 and Dt 6:4).
Gn 1:26 uses a majestic plural
but the Doctrine of Hashem’s
Kedushah Meshuleshet
(Threefold Holiness) is seen in
Elohim (Gn 1:1) and the Dvar
Hashem (Gn 1:3) and the
Ruach Elohim (Gn 1:2)
engaged in the work of
creation. When we look at the
original language in Zohar
Vol.3 Ha'azinu page 288b, we
see the text which comments
on Daniel 7:13, where the Bar
Moshiach comes to the
Ancient of Days. The Zohar
says, "The Ancient One is
described as being two (TAVRESH-YUD-FINAL
NOON,Aramaic for "two")." G-d
and the Moshiach, called by
Daniel "the Ancient of Days"
and "the Son of Man" are
obviously a picture of G-d as
"two" in the Bible, and the
Zohar owns up to this fact,
calling G-d "two." Two
sentences prior to that on the
same page, the original
language of the text of the
Zohar says, "The Ancient Holy
One [i.e. G-d, Daniel 7:13] is
found with three (TAVLAMMED-TAV, Aramaic for
"three") heads or chiefs (RESHYUD-SHIN-YUD-FINAL NOON
Aramaic for "heads"), which are
united in One (CHET-DALET
Aramaic for "one")." Here we
have a picture in the Zohar of
the raz (mystery) of G-d's
unity, the distinct havayot
(subsistences, modes of being)
in Adonoi Echad. G-d is
echad,one, but a complex one,
not three g-ds, only Hashem,
One, but with Hashem’s
Kedushah Meshuleshet
(Threefold holiness, Isa 6:3).
OJB