Defending the Trinity

[nothead]

Good try P; (actually rather infantile of you, in your pathetic attempts to avoid the questions (from your Teaching)!
I am always angry with insincerity!!!
Yours is enormous; you could have been treated with at least respect; but you showed yourself to duplistic and dis-honest; when you are confronted with sincere questions on your own teaching:

Lets try again:
Let us all see you refuse to answer again; or squirm with irrelevant alternative Scriptures or other of your abberant teaching or comments, totally unrelated. I haven't see behaviour this bad before on a serious board!
One expects such behaviour from young children; but from an adult who presents themselves as an "authority"; and a "teacher". I would not want you anywhere near teaching my children, when such falsehood has been shown.
I ask you an open question. Lets see if you will answer?
Do you want to be treated with respect in debate with myself and others; please give me/ us an answer.
Floyd and vicarious.

You think me a proxy for Purity?? Rant on, sir. Confused is you, in more ways than the obvious ones. Why would NOTHEAD be a proxy for the PURE ONE??

 

[Floyd]

You think me a proxy for Purity?? Rant on, sir. Confused is you, in more ways than the obvious ones. Why would NOTHEAD be a proxy for the PURE ONE??

Had not thought of that; are you?
Floyd.

 

[nothead]

Had not thought of that; are you?
Floyd.

Good try P. Why you call me PEE and not NOTHEAD or NUTHEAD or NOHEAD or NUTSFORBRAINS and then I know you actually comprehend who you are speaking with.

Secondly you are not arguing MY arguments, must be PEE's arguments. Shall we go on? In our confusion dear? Why I call your dear? Since I think you my sweetheart DEAR?

 

[Floyd]

Good try P. Why you call me PEE and not NOTHEAD or NUTHEAD or NOHEAD or NUTSFORBRAINS and then I know you actually comprehend who you are speaking with.

Secondly you are not arguing MY arguments, must be PEE's arguments. Shall we go on? In our confusion dear? Why I call your dear? Since I think you my sweetheart DEAR?

Rubbish in; rubbish out!
Floyd.

 

[nothead]

Rubbish in; rubbish out!
Floyd.

:blink:

 

[Wormwood]

Nothead,

Are you still at this? I think this is an obsession for you. Perhaps you keep continually pounding this drum to convince yourself?

 

[Groundzero]

There has been a lot of debate about the nature and biblical validity of the Trinity on various posts recently. I have decided to start a new post on this issue so that the other forums can stay on topic.

The Church has defended the biblical validity to the Trinity throughout history. However, there is a lot of confusion among Christians and non-Christians on this topic because there is very little teaching done about the Trinity in local churches. This leads to all kinds of poor analogies and confusion as to whether there is really any biblical support for the notion in the first place. I contend that there is a tremendous about of biblical support for the concept which is precisely why the Church has passionately defended this doctrine throughout history.

The evidence shows:

1. Jesus declares himself to be Divine.
2. Biblical authors speak of Jesus' Divinity.
3. The Bible often lists Trinitarian formulas.
4. The testimony of early church fathers shows this to be their clear understanding.
5. Messianic prophecies point to a Divine King.
6. Messianic prophecies that God would dwell among us.

Since room does not permit me to go into detail on all of these issues in the opening post, let me just highlight each.

1. Jesus points to his eternal pre-existence in John 8:56-59. What is striking about this passage is that the opponents of Jesus understood Jesus to be making a clear declaration of his divinity (which is why they wanted to kill him). Jesus NEVER corrects them or tells them they have misunderstood his claims about himself. Rather, his response shows that they have understood him correctly. In fact, Jesus uses the term "Son of God" in a divine sense. Jesus could not have been condemned to death if his implications with the term "son of God" was merely indicating an honorary title or that of merely a holy individual. Also, this is the ONLY issue that Jesus responded to at his trial which resulted in the charge of "blasphemy" (not a charge that would have been possible if the claim was merely to be the Christ.) Moreover, Jesus declared that he was equal in honor (John 5:22-23) and identity (John 10:30-31; 14:8-11) with God.

2. There are numerous texts which point to the deity of Jesus. Col. 2:9 declares that the "fullness of God" dwelt in Jesus. Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus existed in the form of God and possessed "equality" with God. Paul declares that he was given authority to be an Apostle by BOTH Jesus and God (Gal. 1:1). Romans 9:5 declares that Jesus is God who is forever blessed. John 1 declares the "Word was God" (which is the most likely interpretation from the Greek in spite of what JW's teach). John 20:28 Thomas declares Jesus to be "my Lord and my God." 1 John 5:20 declares Jesus to be "the true God" and the source of eternal life. Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the "radiance" of God's glory and he holds all things together. More texts could be referenced, but let this suffice for now.

3. Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are used in a formula many times in the Bible and in differing orders. Moreover, the "name" not "names" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit referenced which unites the three into one heading. See Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; Eph. 4:4-6)

4. Ignatius - "I bid you farewell in our God, Jesus Christ" Irenaeus - "...to Christ, our Lord, God, Savior and King..."

5. The messiah-king is to be worshipped (Psalm 2:1). The messiah-king is referred to as "God" (Ps. 45:6). The "branch" is to wear the name "The LORD our righteousness" (Jeremiah 23:5-6). The term used here is God's special name YHWH. God would send the "breaker" to lead his people out of bondage (Micah 2:12-13). This "breaker" would be called "the LORD at their head" (again, the name YHWH is used). Micah prophesied a ruler to come and shepherd God's people and give them peace (Micah 5:2-5) and this shepherd is said to have existed throughout eternity past.

6. Plus there are multiple prophecies of God being among his people used in reference to Jesus (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6-7). Finally, there are many NT passages that refer to YHWH in the OT that are used in reference to Jesus (Joel 2:32; Ps. 68:18; Is. 45:23-24; Psalm 102; Deut. 10:17).

In sum, don't buy the line that there is no biblical or historical support for the Trinity. There is a mountain of evidence. The Bible is abundantly clear and the early church understood Christ in this way. Feel free to make comments or ask questions about these or other texts not listed on this important topic.

Is it just me, or do I see ALOT of reference to Jesus in reference to being God?

How about trying to look at the same evidence but through a slightly different glass - THAT JESUS is the ONE TRUE God of the Bible? Because that actually works pretty effectively!

 

[ATP]

A good way to explain the Holy Trinity is to use the word deity. Three separate persons with three different functions in one God deity.

 

[Groundzero]

A good way to explain the Holy Trinity is to use the word deity. Three separate persons with three different functions in one God deity.

But whether that's Scripture based is a completely different question. There is no mention of the aforementioned definition of the Trinity. Never does the Scripture refer to the 'Godhead having persons' (It implicitly states that the FULLNESS of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ) and neither does it every portray God as being split into three persons (which makes zero logical sense)
If one was to line up the evidence supporting the Trinity and the evidence supporting that Jesus is the ONE and ONLY God, which one would truly hold the balance?

If one truly is sincere, they would stop trying to look at Scripture through THEIR lens and line up the evidence - which viewpoint is better supported by the evidence?
Both creationists and evolutionists look at the same evidence - the only difference is the viewpoint from which they look at it.

The Oneness vs Trinity debate is not a small thing - it's about the very essence of God. From which viewpoint is there evidence that leaves us beyond a reasonable doubt of what we believe?

 

[HammerStone]

Zebra, you also have to look at how many times Jesus prays to the Father. It's gets a little weird to presume that he's talking to himself in the Oneness sense. I'd really recommend spending some time in the first few ecumenical Church councils up through Chalcedon.

 

[ATP]

But whether that's Scripture based is a completely different question. There is no mention of the aforementioned definition of the Trinity. Never does the Scripture refer to the 'Godhead having persons' (It implicitly states that the FULLNESS of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ) and neither does it every portray God as being split into three persons (which makes zero logical sense)

If God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit aren't persons, then what are they? How would you explain the Trinity.

The Personhood of the Holy Spirit (has emotions, is aware, speaks, knows, etc.)

 

[Groundzero]

Zebra, you also have to look at how many times Jesus prays to the Father. It's gets a little weird to presume that he's talking to himself in the Oneness sense. I'd really recommend spending some time in the first few ecumenical Church councils up through Chalcedon.

I have. Here's the funny thing - the Trinity doesn't clear that up. The fact that Jesus prays to the Father is actually a death blow to the Trinity because Jesus is clearly inferior to the Father.

Here's a quick explanation of why Jesus prayed to the Father and why it poses NO objection to the Oneness of God.

Why Jesus prayed:
1. Jesus Christ was a man (flesh) - Psalms 65:2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall ALL flesh come.
2. Jesus was our example - 1 Corinthians 11:1, 1 Peter 2:20-22, 1 John 2:6

It makes perfect sense that Jesus prayed. But how could Jesus pray to . . . Himself? Because Jesus Christ was something special - he was God, yet he was a man as well. This is how Jesus, being God yet a man as well, could be hungry, tired, thirsty, and ultimately die! This is the mystery Paul talks about in Timothy. How could God become flesh? How could he do what he did? It doesn't add up, but we know it happened.
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

How does the Trinity explain Jesus praying?

If God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit aren't persons, then what are they? How would you explain the Trinity.

The Personhood of the Holy Spirit (has emotions, is aware, speaks, knows, etc.)

Glad you asked.
Father is a title. So is Holy Spirit. Just like I'm a Business Owner, a Son, and hopefully one day I'll be a Father too
One person can hold MANY titles. So why do we limit God to having ONE title? The Bible teaches ONE God with many titles!
Jesus is the name of God!
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

I would define the Trinity as found in the Athenasian Creed: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm


The Personhood of the Holy Spirit? Where does the Bible speak of the Holy Spirit being a PERSON?? There is only ONE person mentioned in the Bible - Jesus Christ - in HIM dwells ALL the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily.

P.S. If the Trinity is a correct, then the apostles sure got things pretty lopsided because they often missed out on mentioning the Holy Spirit in their epistles. E.g. Jud_1:4, 2Jn_1:3, 2Pe_1:1, Jas_1:1, Phm_1:3

What would happen if we were to discuss the nature of God using ONLY what the Bible actually states? Not using terms that the Bible neither mentions nor supports? Because that is what should happen. The Trinity's definition is found in the Athenasian creed. The Oneness definition is found many times in the Bible.

 

[ATP]

The Personhood of the Holy Spirit? Where does the Bible speak of the Holy Spirit being a PERSON?? There is only ONE person mentioned in the Bible - Jesus Christ - in HIM dwells ALL the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily.

If the Father and the Holy Spirit are not persons of the Godhead, then what are they exactly?

 

[Groundzero]

If the Father and the Holy Spirit are not persons of the Godhead, then what are they exactly?

They're not persons. They're titles attributed to one person - Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Father. (Isa_9:6)

Jesus is the Holy Ghost (Joh 14:1)


Col 2:9 For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jesus is ALL that God is. He is the ONE God of the Bible.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

 

[ATP]

They're not persons. They're titles attributed to one person - Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Father. (Isa_9:6)

Jesus is the Holy Ghost (Joh 14:1)


Col 2:9 For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jesus is ALL that God is. He is the ONE God of the Bible.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Why would Jesus pray to himself though.
How can Jesus be the Father and also the son at the same time.
Also, what's the point of Jesus being an intercessor between the Father and humanity if he is the Father.

 

[Groundzero]

Why would Jesus pray to himself though.
How can Jesus be the Father and also the son at the same time.
Also, what's the point of Jesus being an intercessor between the Father and humanity if he is the Father.

And you my dear sir, are brilliant at dodging questions!
I just answered why Jesus prayed in post 572. And it works just the same for the Trinity. Why the heck would God the Son pray to God the Father? Either you have the same answer, or you go to the more obvious one, which is God the Father is superior to God the Son which makes the God the Son - Jesus - NOT GOD ultimately.


I'm interested in your explanation for these two questions I raised. Until they're answered, I see no point in rehashing what I just stated.
The Personhood of the Holy Spirit? Where does the Bible speak of the Holy Spirit being a PERSON?
How does the Trinity explain Jesus praying?

 

[ATP]

Where does the Bible speak of the Holy Spirit being a PERSON?

A person has will, mind and emotions. How can a non-personal force possess these qualities?

HOLY SPIRIT
John 16:13 - The Spirit hears.
1 Corinthians 12:8 - The Spirit gives gifts.
Acts 15:28 - He decides or determines whether or not an act is good.
1 Corinthians 6:11 - He justifies.
Romans 15:30 - He loves
Acts 5:9 - He can be tried or tested.
1 Corinthians 12:11 - He wills (power to choose).
Romans 8:27 - He has a mind.
1 Corinthians 2:11 - He knows.
Acts 5:3 - He can be lied to.
Ephesians 4:30; Isaiah 63:10 - He can be grieved.

How does the Trinity explain Jesus praying?

Jesus as an individual prays to his Father also an individual. I think you might be confusing deity substance with deity role. Jesus taught that He and His Father are one (John 10:30), meaning that He and His Father are of the same substance and the same essence. The Father, Son and Spirit are three co-equal persons existing as God. These three had, and continue to have, an eternal relationship. John 14:23 also mentions the word, "we.", separating the Father and the Son as two individuals. Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

WILL/MIND/EMOTIONS - Jesus and the Father also had independent wills, Matthew 26:39. Jesus prayed, "not My will but Thine be done." My will and Thy will make two distinct minds each capable of making its own decisions. The Father's will and the Son's will agree and are united, but each has individual power to choose and to will. Each has His own mind and intelligence separate from the other. Two distinct wills necessarily imply two distinct intelligent beings.

 

[justaname]

Here is something interesting for you to contemplate ZebraHug...

4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Notice here both the Lamb (Jesus Christ) and Him who sat on the throne (The Father) are present. Remember they do worship the Lamb, so without a doubt the Lamb is God. (Revelation 5:14) Also He who sits on the throne is the Lord God. (Revelation 4:9-11)


cf. the description given to the Father...
11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”


the description given to the Lamb...
12 saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

Then given in concert as two separate...


13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

 

[Forsakenone]

Here is something interesting for you to contemplate ZebraHug...

4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Isaiah 29:12

5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

So in the beginning, the Gods created the heaven and the earth? After all it does use the term Elohim, which in Hebrew is plural. But if I am not mistaken, to suggest that the Gods created the heaven and the earth
is consider heresy, yet in John 4:24 it is written, God is a Spirit. So in the 6th verse, who are the seven Spirits of God? The answer is simple if to them who walk in the Light of the Eternal, Immortal One which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God, as written in John 1:13

Which raises the question, in John 8:17-18, it is written, "It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.", then then obviously it doesn't matter how many witnesses testify against you when the Spirit of Truth testifies on your behalf, Ex 23:20-21

Notice here both the Lamb (Jesus Christ) and Him who sat on the throne (The Father) are present. Remember they do worship the Lamb, so without a doubt the Lamb is God. (Revelation 5:14) Also He who sits on the throne is the Lord God. (Revelation 4:9-11)
cf. the description given to the Father...
11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”
the description given to the Lamb...
12 saying with a loud voice,




“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

Now I get confused when you talk about the Lamb, are you referencing the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, or the Lamb that as referenced in the 6th verse as the "Lamb standing, as if slain," because the body of space called heaven is formed by the Father cited in James 1:17 as written, Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Then given in concert as two separate...
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,




“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

While I understand this contradicts the Catholic doctrine of the trinity, but it also contradicts the Catholic doctrine of evolution, but if a male and his wife shall be one flesh, then those born of the Spirit and the Word would be born of the Son of God as written in 1 John 5:7. After all, the only difference between the Fanatic and the Atheist is that one is blind and the other deaf.

 

[Groundzero]

A person has will, mind and emotions. How can a non-personal force possess these qualities?

HOLY SPIRIT
John 16:13 - The Spirit hears.
1 Corinthians 12:8 - The Spirit gives gifts.
Acts 15:28 - He decides or determines whether or not an act is good.
1 Corinthians 6:11 - He justifies.
Romans 15:30 - He loves
Acts 5:9 - He can be tried or tested.
1 Corinthians 12:11 - He wills (power to choose).
Romans 8:27 - He has a mind.
1 Corinthians 2:11 - He knows.
Acts 5:3 - He can be lied to.
Ephesians 4:30; Isaiah 63:10 - He can be grieved.


Jesus as an individual prays to his Father also an individual. I think you might be confusing deity substance with deity role. Jesus taught that He and His Father are one (John 10:30), meaning that He and His Father are of the same substance and the same essence. The Father, Son and Spirit are three co-equal persons existing as God. These three had, and continue to have, an eternal relationship. John 14:23 also mentions the word, "we.", separating the Father and the Son as two individuals. Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

WILL/MIND/EMOTIONS - Jesus and the Father also had independent wills, Matthew 26:39. Jesus prayed, "not My will but Thine be done." My will and Thy will make two distinct minds each capable of making its own decisions. The Father's will and the Son's will agree and are united, but each has individual power to choose and to will. Each has His own mind and intelligence separate from the other. Two distinct wills necessarily imply two distinct intelligent beings.

Ummm, could it be because he's God? God is a spirit, you can't see him, yet he can 'see', 'hear', and 'know'. Doesn't mean that God has a literal brain, eyes, and ears. Of course the Holy Spirit has those features - because he is God! He's the exact same God who manifest himself in a body of flesh! The only differences is the role which he plays!
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth


I think you're confusing the incarnation with paganism!

Let me quote this grand occasion where Jesus spoke:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The Jews got it. Jesus was saying he was God - the Almighty one, the Holy ONE of Israel. So they picked up stones to kill him.
Would you walk up to someone and say, "If you have met me, you've met my Father?" No! They'd think you're an idiot. The ONLY way Jesus could make that statement is because he WAS the FATHER!

Jesus had a separate will to the Father? Or was it the dual natures of Christ? Remember, Jesus was both God AND man. In the garden, we see the humanity of Christ giving in to his deity.
If we stick with the Trinity, then it's clear that Jesus is NOT God because his will bows to the Father. How the heck does that work?

I have two questions I expect to be adequately answered:

1. Who is this King?
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


1. Let's pretend that we didn't have the NT available for reference - where in the OT is there direct proof for a Trinity?

Here is something interesting for you to contemplate ZebraHug...

4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Notice here both the Lamb (Jesus Christ) and Him who sat on the throne (The Father) are present. Remember they do worship the Lamb, so without a doubt the Lamb is God. (Revelation 5:14) Also He who sits on the throne is the Lord God. (Revelation 4:9-11)


cf. the description given to the Father...
11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”


the description given to the Lamb...
12 saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

Then given in concert as two separate...


13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

Duly considered. Now a few questions concerning the verses.

1. There's only two person's of the Godhead spoken of here - the Father and the Son. Where's the Holy Ghost?

2. Who is the KING of KINGS?

3. Who created ALL things?


The ONLY way that the Bible can stand true is if Jesus is the ONE and ONLY God. P.s. According to Matthew 28:19, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all have one name. Could that be because they're the same person?