Degrees of sin

[K9Buck]

Yes there appears to be a lot of inconsistencies especially as introduced by Paul the Apostle. So I find that a lot of people hang on one or the other scripture of those scriptures that contradict each other and then beat that one scripture over your head. I think when scriptures aren't in harmony with each other a logical answer must be correct.

Many Christians believe that the vast majority of humanity will be dumped into an eternal fire. That sounds like something the Nazis did at Auschwitz. Needless to say, that's not my view. My gut-feeling is that few, if ANY, are permanently damned/condemned/destroyed.

 

[dev553344]

Many Christians believe that the vast majority of humanity will be dumped into an eternal fire. That sounds like something the Nazis did at Auschwitz. Needless to say, that's not my view. My gut-feeling is that few, if ANY, are permanently damned/condemned/destroyed.

Ya know, I agree. I see this scripture as a strange idea:

Revelation 21:8

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Here it references a part or portion. Which leaves me wondering if the second death is a portion of death and sentencing.

And then this, where he is still alive and speaking to God out of some fiery torment of some hell. I'll quote the whole scripture to get the context and bold the text for quick reference:

Luke 16:19-31



19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[quietthinker]

Some verses say that you only need to believe in order to be saved. Other verses seemingly contradict that claim. So, it's understandable that some may believe that the bible is inconsistent.

The belief that the bible is inconsistent is a contextual matter. Those who believe so have a little information and because they can't reconcile all the factors, claims are made from poor judgement.

I think most of us understand that limited understanding of any matter has dire consequences if it is assumed that that limitation gives them the right to a teaching role.

 

[K9Buck]

The belief that the bible is inconsistent is a contextual matter. Those who believe so have a little information and because they can't reconcile all the factors, claims are made from poor judgement.

Perhaps.

Do you have perfect understanding of the bible?

 

[quietthinker]

Perhaps.

Do you have perfect understanding of the bible?

Knowledge is progressive so 'perfect' is not something I claim. Direction however is the purpose of the scriptures; that we might know there are sign posts and which way they face.

 

[K9Buck]

Knowledge is progressive so 'perfect' is not something I claim. Direction however is the purpose of the scriptures; that we might know there are sign posts and which way they face.

So you accept the possibility that you may misunderstand parts of the bible.

 

[quietthinker]

So you accept the possibility that you may misunderstand parts of the bible.

yes

 

[K9Buck]

yes

Fair enough.

 

[reformed1689]

And you are preaching this as FACT when, in reality, you don't KNOW.

Yes, this is fact based on Scripture.

 

[Renniks]

We must pay for all our Sins in Purgatory to the very last cent the Bible says, because nothing defiled can enter into Heaven in fact.
Look at the list that one must be to enter the Kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:9-18 yes there is a list in fact of who can not enter, they can not enter because such as mentioned are not worthy of such. I did not make it up the Bible states this fact. I did not make up Purgatory the Bible points it out in fact.

Where's the Bible teach about purgatory? My Bible says I can know I have eternal life. Not that I might make it if I get through purgatory.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

 

[dev553344]

Where's the Bible teach about purgatory? My Bible says I can know I have eternal life. Not that I might make it if I get through purgatory.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

OK here's the oxymoron, if people that suffer eternal fire in hell or the lake of fire suffer eternally, then they aren't dying, the term die is reserved for a body that turns back into dust from being raised from dust. Does not a person that lives in the lake of fire have some sort of eternal life to exist in there forever and be tormented?

Anyways that is what confuses me the most, cheers.

 

[Renniks]

OK here's the oxymoron, if people that suffer eternal fire in hell or the lake of fire suffer eternally, then they aren't dying, the term die is reserved for a body that turns back into dust from being raised from dust. Does not a person that lives in the lake of fire have some sort of eternal life to exist in there forever and be tormented?

Anyways that is what confuses me the most, cheers.

How does that really relate to the idea of purgatory though? If the unsaved die forever or are consumed, they still die either way. What I'm asking is how does one get the idea that they go through some intermediate stage, then enter heaven? I mean, I read: " the great divorce" by CS Lewis too, but I don't see it as actual biblical theology.

 

[dev553344]

How does that really relate to the idea of purgatory though? If the unsaved die forever or are consumed, they still die either way. What I'm asking is how does one get the idea that they go through some intermediate stage, then enter heaven? I mean, I read: " the great divorce" by CS Lewis too, but I don't see it as actual biblical theology.

I'll direct you here, there is a lot on the subject of purgatory and too much for me to get into right now. I will try to address it soon: History of purgatory - Wikipedia

 

[dev553344]

How does that really relate to the idea of purgatory though? If the unsaved die forever or are consumed, they still die either way. What I'm asking is how does one get the idea that they go through some intermediate stage, then enter heaven? I mean, I read: " the great divorce" by CS Lewis too, but I don't see it as actual biblical theology.

OK, this appears to explain why Catholics believe in purgatory, tell me what you think about it...

1 Corinthians 3:11–15


11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

 

[Truther]

I found this article: Degrees of Sin - The Gospel Coalition

I've heard many times to un-justify a person that all sin is death (James 2:10), which is correct in a sense as you cannot save yourself, only Jesus could and he was without sin.

But there appears to be degrees of sin as described by Jesus himself (John 19:11).

In society we find different sentences for different crimes which seems just and logical.

But in Hell death is eternal (Matthew 25:41) or is it?

I believe in a spirit prison where people go after death to serve a time sentence like judgment (1 Peter 3:19). And this makes a distinction between the lake of fire which is eternal and spirit prison which might be a sentence of judgment.

The above is how God has taught me in the spirit and I believe him. Ideas?

There is no such thing as purgatory.

There is a place of torment for the ungodly that Jesus described per the rich man and Lazarus incident, which phony scholars are trying to call a myth..... As if Jesus told myths.

 

[Renniks]

OK, this appears to explain why Catholics believe in purgatory, tell me what you think about it...

1 Corinthians 3:11–15


11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

It's about works done on the earth to Christ....if built on any other foundation, they will not amount to anything.
How one gets purgatory out of this, I have no idea.
Look at the context:
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

And again after those verses:

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

It's about seeking God in the work we do, and glorifying him, not humans.

 

[Charlie24]

I found this article: Degrees of Sin - The Gospel Coalition

I've heard many times to un-justify a person that all sin is death (James 2:10), which is correct in a sense as you cannot save yourself, only Jesus could and he was without sin.

But there appears to be degrees of sin as described by Jesus himself (John 19:11).

In society we find different sentences for different crimes which seems just and logical.

But in Hell death is eternal (Matthew 25:41) or is it?

I believe in a spirit prison where people go after death to serve a time sentence like judgment (1 Peter 3:19). And this makes a distinction between the lake of fire which is eternal and spirit prison which might be a sentence of judgment.

The above is how God has taught me in the spirit and I believe him. Ideas?

I believe you are dead on the money!

According to what Jesus told us about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16, I believe that spiritual prison you speak of is "sheol."

It's the place where the spiritual dead, the unrighteous, are awaiting the Great White Throne of Judgement.

After judgement, they are cast into the lake of fire, where I believe the degrees of sin and punishment are decided.

 

[dev553344]

I believe you are dead on the money!

According to what Jesus told us about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16, I believe that spiritual prison you speak of is "sheol."

It's the place where the spiritual dead, the unrighteous, are awaiting the Great White Throne of Judgement.

After judgement, they are cast into the lake of fire, where I believe the degrees of sin and punishment are decided.

Yeah that's what I believe too I think.

 

[Charlie24]

Yeah that's what I believe too I think.

Sheol is the Hebrew is the translation of hell, in the Greek, sheol is translated "hades," it is the same place, and is temporary awaiting the Judgement.

Not to be confused with "the lake of fire" which is everlasting and permanent. This is my understanding of it.

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

I believe in a spirit prison where people go after death to serve a time sentence like judgment (1 Peter 3:19). And this makes a distinction between the lake of fire which is eternal and spirit prison which might be a sentence of judgment.

this is nothing but a question from this foolish person

if christ indeed preaches in the spirit prison
then there is still a chance for the dead to be save even though they know nothing of what is happening in the living world nor can they feel a thing nor can they do a thing

so we can still save our dead beloved ones if we prayed?