Deuteronomy 6:4
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there are clearly Three distinct Persons in the Bible, Who are equally called Yahweh and God, yet there is One Godhead, or Divine Nature
not to the angels, as there is no verse in the entire Bible that says humans are Created in the Image and Likeness of angels, or any other heavenly Created being!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not an answer to the question but an implied Appeal to Ignorance/False Alternative. You mean to say one cannot talk to one group about how a 2nd group is made in the image of a 3rd group? Wow!
For instance, a POTUS cannot say to an audience of foreigners that Americans today are like generations past, willing to sacrifice for the cause of liberty?! Of course.
I've noticed a pattern of your belief system. You invoke such Appeal to Ignorance/False Alternative arguments, e.g., there is no verse that says X, therefore -X must be true. There is no verse in the entire Bible that says God is a trinity. Therefore?
Genesis 1:1 says,
"in the beginning God Created the heavens and the earth"
Psalm 102:24-27 says,
"I say: “My God, do not take me in the middle of my life! Your years continue through all generations. Long ago You established the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; all of them will wear out like clothing. You will change them like a garment,
and they will pass away. But You are the same, and Your years will never end"
Hebrews 1:10-12 says,
"And: In the beginning, Lord, You established the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; they will perish, but You remain. They will all wear out like clothing; You will roll them up like a cloak, and they will be changed like a robe. But You are the same, and Your years will never end"
Job 33:4 says,
"The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”
What is true in the Old Testament for Creation by Elohim, as in the passage from Psalms, is also true of Jesus Christ, where in Hebrews, God the Father, in direct address to Jesus Christ, uses the same words from Psalm, and says that Jesus Christ is The Creator. Not a mere "agent" in Creation, but the actual Creator.
Then we have in Job, where Creation is by the Holy Spirit.
We know that God the Father "sent" both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, so it is clear that the Three are distinct Persons.
It is also clear from these passages, and others, that Creation is not the Act of just God the Father. The Teaching of the Trinity is clearly in the Holy Bible, both in the Old and New Testaments.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Is it God, 'the' Father, or God, our Father?
God, who alone is our Father, has a personal name, YHWH. His anointed has a personal name, Jesus. God is spirit, not flesh as Jesus is, as we are flesh. God's nature has attributes, such as power, grace and holiness. None of anyone's attributes constitute a different person and one way we know this also applies to God our Father is that there is not a personal name for his spirit.
(It's interesting that you admit that God our Father sent the Holy Spirit as that was all the fuss leading to The Great Schism, and the benefit to us on Earth of Jesus' ministry).
Hogwash. The actual text of Scripture states that Creation is the act of God (not a triune 'Godhead'), which Deuteronomy 6:4 and many other verses state explicitly is our Father alone. 'For us there is one God, the Father.'
"God" is not the name of the Creator. Both man and god are not called "Man" or "God." These terms are merely referring to a genus of life forms. God has a personal name and it is not Jesus but YHWH. "Father" is no ones name either. It is merely a relationship name, how we relate to the Creator - including the man Jesus.
The Bible repeatedly and explicitly tells us Jesus is a man for the simple reason is that is the type of life form he is. Jesus is a man Anointed by an immortal god, not the god doing the anointing. See the difference?
Hope this helps.
You completely ignore what God the Father says in Hebrews 1:10 - 12. Where He addresses Jesus Christ directly as THE CREATOR
This fact is beyond any doubt very clear evidence that Jesus Christ is YHWH
In understanding your definition of "Person" for purposes of understanding the Trinity, it doesn't help me much to know what it isn't. Separating all entities into "things" and "persons" doesn't provide a definition of either category. Nor do I think defining "Person" as a "non-thing" furthers our understanding of the Trinity. (Would you call the Trinity "three non-things in one God"?)
So I ask you again, this time a bit more robustly: What are the characteristics of X that make X a "Person"?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I don't ignore these verses. I just don't impose an trinitarian interpretation onto unitarian text.
Every epistle, including Hebrews explicitly say the Father (alone is God). Jesus also explicitly says this and that his God is the only true God. Why is this not definitive and good enough for you?
10 And God continues,
In the beginning, You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth
and set the skies above us with Your own hands.
11 But while they will someday pass away,
You remain forever;
when they wear out like old clothes,
12 You will roll them up
and change them into something new.
But You will never change;
Your years will never come to an end.
Hebrews 1:10-12, The Voice
You are supposing "Lord" here applies to one lord (Jesus) when it refers to another lord, the lord God.
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You will notice that from verse 5 onwards, it is the Father in Addressing Jesus Chrtst
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
You will also notice how verse 10 begins, "Καί Σὺ κατ᾽ ἀρχάς κύριε", literally, "and You in the beginning O Lord", where the particle "Καί", is used for "continuing", and the use of the vocative, "κύριε", is used in direct Address, by the Father to Jesus Christ. There is no one who without a bias, would ever understand the "κύριε", as the Father addresseing Himself! This is absurd, and only used by those, like yourself, who will try every trick to discredit the TRUTH, that Jesus Christ IS The Creator, and therefore YHWH! Argue all you like, but the Bible is AGAINTST you!
“A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent” (Webster’s English Dictionary, 1913 ed)
“Definition of Personality. Personality exists where there is intelligence, mind, will, reason, individuality, self-consciousness, and self-determination. There must be not mere consciousness—for the beast has that—but self-consciousness. Nor is personality determination—for the beast has this, too, even though this determination be the result of influences from without—but self-determination, the power by which man from an act of his own free will determines his acts from within.
Neither corporeity nor substance, as we understand these words, are necessarily, if at all, involved in personality. There may be true personality without either or both of these.
(William Evans, The Great Doctrines of the Bible, p.22)
“PERSONALITY. In the first place, we endeavor to establish the personality of the Holy Spirit. By this we here mean that the Holy Spirit is a real being, possessing intelligence, and performing personal actions; not, however, a being distinct and separate in essence from the Father. We understand the one undivided essence or being in the Godhead to exist in three distinct persons—the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We would prove the personality of the Holy Ghost, 1. By the appellations; 2. By the actions; 3. By the honors, ascribed to him. If these be such as can only be applicable to a real and personal existence, then the inference will be clear that the Holy Spirit is a real and personal being, and not a mere abstract attribute, energy, or influence.”
(Thomas Ralston - Elements of Divinity, p.40)
Then let's go again...
Net Bible Isa 9:6 For a child has been born to us, son has been given to us. He shoulders Responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God,18 Everlasting Father,19 Prince of Peace.20
18 tn âÌÄáÌåÉø (gibbor) is probably an attributive adjective ("mighty God"), though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Scholars have interpreted this title is two ways. A number of them have argued that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see J. H. Hayes and S. A. Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). They contend that this sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. They would suggest that having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Psa_45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth.
19 tn This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the "Son" is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the "Father.") Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of "father" see Isa_22:21 and Job_29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of "father" is not limited to the Bible.
Also important to note are the words in the verse. You will note most of the translations read… “will be called” or “shall be called” This is more of a concept of agency than actually being. There is a big difference between being call something, as in(agency) and actually being. No translations ever read “He Is. ”
This verse is actually a great example of how a western mind can read a verse literally and come away with a completely wrong impression. The Hebraic back ground is needed to fully understand this verse as it was intended to be understood!
You getting this the second time around???
Paul
Really.... How many faces did Joseph have to wash? How many plural faces did Joseph have???? let's not start with how many faces Sarah had!!!
in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.
The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:
Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.
Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.
Now given that the Jews translated their own scripture into Greek... Well before Jesus ever arrived on Earth!!! They never used plural.... Stop trying to pretend you know what your talking about... and read History!!!
Paul
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No.
Not 'the Father' but God in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature is talking to his adopted Son, 'today' I will be your father, means there was a day before that day where that was not the case, right?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It did not escape my attention that your recent flurry of Hebrews was to ignore the Scripture verses and question asked. Given your claim that the Holy Spirit is a person, can you, at least, admit he has no personal name and answer the question about recognizing being the object and subject of a sentence, being the one anointed from being the one doing the anointing?
Adopting Evans' definition, my tentative conclusion is that God is a Person. God has "intelligence, mind, will, reason, individuality, self-consciousness, and self-determination." Just like you and I do.
And it's the "individuality" feature that I want to focus on for the present. God is not the same person as you or I. God is a distinct Person from us, just as you and I and every other human walking the planet are distinct from each other. Each human is a unique individual and not the same "person" as another human. This "individuality" feature encapsulates the notion of "distinctiveness."
And the question becomes, is God three distinct Persons, or only one? If three, how are we to understand God (as opposed to Father, Son and Holy Spirit) as a Person? The "individuality" component of Personhood would seem to preclude referring to God as a Person -- presuming, of course, that we are bound by the axiom that there is only one God and no other gods.
Therein lies the problem in understanding the concept. For while each human shares the essence of "humanity" (we can define it later) and yet is a distinct "person" from every other human, the necessary corollary of this is that there is more than one human. But we cannot say that each of Father, Son and Holy Spirit shares the essence of "deity" (we can define it later) while remaining a distinct "Person" from the other two -- yet abandon the corollary of this that there is more than one God. Stated another way, distinctiveness of individual members of a genus necessarily implies plurality within the genus.
To maintain monotheism and avoid tritheism, Trinitarians like myself (yes, I am one) either need to make an exception to this rule for God, or else must redefine "Person" in a way which accommodates both. I favor the latter approach.
By the way, Ralston's conclusion that the Holy Spirit is "not, however, a being distinct and separate in essence from the Father" is at odds with Evans' definition of "Personality." If Ralston is right that the Holy Spirit is not "distinct" from the Father, then the Holy Spirit fails the "individuality" component of Personality announced by Evans.
