Did Christians invent the Trinity-2

[Matthias]

If there had been no Jews there would be no Christians. We owe everything to them. They are God's chosen people we are only grafted on.

Well said. I had two passages of scripture in mind that I was anticipating you would, or might, direct my attention to. Another time.

Why do you think I would endorse something like that?

I didn’t think you would. Now I know you wouldn’t.

I’m not alone in my stand against @Reggie Belafonte.

That in itself doesn’t make me right or him wrong. That just makes me not alone.

 

[RLT63]

Well said. I had two passages of scripture in mind that I was anticipating you would, or might, direct my attention to. Another time.



I didn’t think you would. Now I know you wouldn’t.

I’m not alone in my stand against @Reggie Belafonte.

That in itself doesn’t make me right or him wrong. That just makes me not alone.

I haven't seen any of his posts.

 

[Matthias]

I haven't seen any of his posts.

It was one of the comments he addressed to me in post #217.

History. What impression does it make on you?

 

[Matthias]

I mentioned “Dr. Brown’s question” in post #209.

The Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. didn’t clearly establish tri-personality. I needed to briefly touch upon the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. and the “new orthodoxy” / “explicit Nicene orthodoxy” before coming back to the question. Here is the question:

”Was the transition from the personal monotheism of Israel to the tri-personal theism of Nicaea a legitimate development of Old Testament revelation?”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies, p. 431)

The average church-goer typically isn’t aware that such a transition ever occurred in the Church. That’s what needs to be known.

The personal monotheism of Israel is unitarian. The personal monotheism of Israel is the personal, unitarian, monotheism of the Messiah.

Was the development that took the Church from the Jewish unitary monotheism of it’s founder (circa 30 A.D.) to “explicit Nicene orthodoxy” (381 A.D.) legitimate? Was it valid? That’s what needs to be asked.

The history sets the stage for the question. The question requires an answer. Every reader must answer the question for himself or herself.

What’s at stake?

Dr. Brown, the mic is yours. Speak boldly.

“Without Nicaea and Chalcedon, it would not have been possible to maintain that Christianity is a biblical religion, the legitimate daughter of Old Testament Judaism.“

(Ibid.)

What’s a stake?

Dr. Brown sincerely believed, and wants the reader to be persuaded and conclude, that Christianity is at stake.

Respectfully, I say to Dr. Brown: Christianity is not at stake. The trinitarian form of Christianity is at stake.

“Without Nicaea and Chalcedon” …

Christianity is a biblical religion, “the legitimate daughter of Judaism” - “without Nicaea and Chalcedon”.

Christianity isn’t a trinitarian religion “without Nicaea and Chalcedon”.

Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, and Judaism is unitarian. Then came a period of several centuries which - thanks to @Taken - I now have stuck in my mind and think of as “the hocus pocus standoff”. Out of that period of “unity and diversity” (to borrow a phrase from Dr. James D.G. Dunn) trinitarianism emerged, with the backing of the state, as the victor in the 4th century.

Was it legitimate?

That is Dr. Brown’s question. That is THE question.

 

[RLT63]

It was one of the comments he addressed to me in post #217.

History. What impression does it make on you?

I was interested in it like Constantine and his role in making Christianity the state religion and many.other things that have happened in history but I always feel that I am getting someone's biased view of history and not just the facts.

 

[Matthias]

I was interested in it like Constantine and his role in making Christianity the state religion and many.other things that have happened in history but I always feel that I am getting someone's biased view of history and not just the facts.

The solution for that is to read the history for ourselves. The scholars have access to the pertinent documents. So do we.

 

[Matthias]

I was interested in it like Constantine and his role in making Christianity the state religion and many.other things that have happened in history but I always feel that I am getting someone's biased view of history and not just the facts.

If you could jump in Mr. Peabody’s WAYBACK machine and change just one thing in Church history, what would that one thing be? Why would you change it?

 

[Taken]

I
The personal monotheism of Israel is unitarian. The personal monotheism of Israel is the personal, unitarian, monotheism of the Messiah.

Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, and Judaism is unitarian. Then came a period of several centuries which - thanks to @Taken - I now have stuck in my mind and think of as “the hocus pocus standoff”. Out of that period of “unity and diversity” (to borrow a phrase from Dr. James D.G. Dunn) trinitarianism emerged, with the backing of the state, as the victor in the 4th century.

Was it legitimate?

That is Dr. Brown’s question. That is THE question.

The ANSWER is revealed IN Scripture.
IN BRIEF;
God IS Spirit.
God IS Invisible to ManKINDS Natural EYES.
* God gave men Visions to See.
* God gave men a Voice to Hear.
* God gave those SAME men, the TASK to Teach other men.
...Bummer. Frustration. Teaching other men what “they” can NOT:
...See or Hear.
* God SENT His created celestial holy angles, who ARE spirits, TO EARTH: IN the LIKENESS; ie IN BODIES: that LOOKED LIKE AN Earthly mans BODY.
* AWESOME...Earthly men, COULD SEE and HEAR, angelic spirits!
* THE SAME MEN, WHO BELIEVED, without SEEING God, without HEARING Gods VOICE...IMMEDIATELY, recognized, understood, THAT:
* Angelic “spirits”, Sent to them, WERE ANGELS, IN bodily LIKENESSES, of men........EVEN CALLED THEM MEN......BECAUSE ANY HUMAN MAN, as well COULD SEE and HEAR, angelic spirits, APPEARING, LOOKING LIKE human men, whether or not “THEY” knew they were “angelic spirits”.

* David had an encounter with an angelic spirit.
* Abraham had angelic spirits, “men” visit him.
* Angelic spirits, “men” were present in Sodom.

* IT WAS A PRELUDE...A FORESHADOWING...OF HOW God WOULD FULFILL HIS PROMISE...OF REVEALING HIMSELF ON EARTH FOR MEN TO HEAR and SEE.

* We have the LONG ancient and historical history of Hebrews, of Tribes of Israel, of Levites, of Benjaminits and Jews, struggles TRYING to TEACH men...TO TRUST, TO BELIEVE, TO REMAIN STEADY...IN The Heavenly GOD ALMIGHTY: IN THAT WHICH THEY CAN NOT SEE OR HEAR!

* YES, throughout decades, centuries, other men made fun of them, persecuted them, enslaved them, killed them, made demands to SEE “their” unseen God.
* YES, MANY could NOT bare the oppression, and relented to “other mens” gods of imaginations, moons, stone and statues.

* YES, WHEN Gods SENT, His WORD to Earth...
THREE things Occurred...(AND REMEMBERING, God “HAD” PURPOSED “IN MEN”, to teach and preach Gods Word)...
1) God PURPOSED IN HIMSELF, to teach and preach His Word to ISRAEL.
2) God FULFILLED HIS PROMISE to walk among His Faithful ISRAEL.
3) God who IS Spirit, Prepared a BODY, in the Likeness AS A MAN, for HIS WORD to BE seen of earthly men, to BE heard by earthly men.

*******
Eph 1:9 purposed in himself..
Ex 29:45 walk among Israel..
Phil 2:8 likeness, fashion As a man..
*******

1 John 5:
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

AS FAR AS what councils of MEN DECLARE...
Gods WORD SUPERSEDES!
Listen, Hear, Trust, Believe, Accept, Commit, Declare;
God’s Word Above all other words.

1 John 5:
[9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Matthias]

The ANSWER is revealed IN Scripture.
IN BRIEF;
God IS Spirit.
God IS Invisible to ManKINDS Natural EYES.
* God gave men Visions to See.
* God gave men a Voice to Hear.
* God gave those SAME men, the TASK to Teach other men.
...Bummer. Frustration. Teaching other men what “they” can NOT:
...See or Hear.
* God SENT His created celestial holy angles, who ARE spirits, TO EARTH: IN the LIKENESS; ie IN BODIES: that LOOKED LIKE AN Earthly mans BODY.
* AWESOME...Earthly men, COULD SEE and HEAR, angelic spirits!
* THE SAME MEN, WHO BELIEVED, without SEEING God, without HEARING Gods VOICE...IMMEDIATELY, recognized, understood, THAT:
* Angelic “spirits”, Sent to them, WERE ANGELS, IN bodily LIKENESSES, of men........EVEN CALLED THEM MEN......BECAUSE ANY HUMAN MAN, as well COULD SEE and HEAR, angelic spirits, APPEARING, LOOKING LIKE human men, whether or not “THEY” knew they were “angelic spirits”.

* David had an encounter with an angelic spirit.
* Abraham had angelic spirits, “men” visit him.
* Angelic spirits, “men” were present in Sodom.

* IT WAS A PRELUDE...A FORESHADOWING...OF HOW God WOULD FULFILL HIS PROMISE...OF REVEALING HIMSELF ON EARTH FOR MEN TO HEAR and SEE.

* We have the LONG ancient and historical history of Hebrews, of Tribes of Israel, of Levites, of Benjaminits and Jews, struggles TRYING to TEACH men...TO TRUST, TO BELIEVE, TO REMAIN STEADY...IN The Heavenly GOD ALMIGHTY: IN THAT WHICH THEY CAN NOT SEE OR HEAR!

* YES, throughout decades, centuries, other men made fun of them, persecuted them, enslaved them, killed them, made demands to SEE “their” unseen God.
* YES, MANY could NOT bare the oppression, and relented to “other mens” gods of imaginations, moons, stone and statues.

* YES, WHEN Gods SENT, His WORD to Earth...
THREE things Occurred...(AND REMEMBERING, God “HAD” PURPOSED “IN MEN”, to teach and preach Gods Word)...
1) God PURPOSED IN HIMSELF, to teach and preach His Word to ISRAEL.
2) God FULFILLED HIS PROMISE to walk among His Faithful ISRAEL.
3) God who IS Spirit, Prepared a BODY, in the Likeness AS A MAN, for HIS WORD to BE seen of earthly men, to BE heard by earthly men.

*******
Eph 1:9 purposed in himself..
Ex 29:45 walk among Israel..
Phil 2:8 likeness, fashion As a man..
*******

1 John 5:
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

AS FAR AS what councils of MEN DECLARE...
Gods WORD SUPERSEDES!
Listen, Hear, Trust, Believe, Accept, Commit, Declare;
God’s Word Above all other words.

1 John 5:
[9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Glory to God,
Taken

So let’s (theoretically) throw away the Council of Nicaea, the Council of Constantinople, the Council of Chalcedon.

Without them, what do we have?

Primitive Christianity.

 

[RLT63]

If you could jump in Mr. Peabody’s WAYBACK machine and change just one thing in Church history, what would that one thing be? Why would you change it?

The way the Church became the state religion. It seems Satan could not destroy the Church through persecution, that only made it stronger. So he had the powers that be marry the Church and the Church became corrupt and something it was never meant to be.

 

[Matthias]

The way the Church became the state religion. It seems Satan could not destroy the Church through persecution, that only made it stronger. So he had the powers that be marry the Church and the Church became corrupt and something it was never meant to be.

That’s a good one. Constantine was a politician, not a theologian. He didn’t give a rat’s whisker about the details of Christianity. He wanted the Church to decide on something, anything, to stop the bickering, the division; “the hocus pocus standoff” threatened the stability of the government, of the Empire, of Roman society. He went back and forth as the wind blew when it came to Church doctrine, as did emperor’s who followed him.

Athanasius was exiled five times, by four different emperors.

 

[Taken]

So let’s (theoretically) throw away the Council of Nicaea, the Council of Constantinople, the Council of Chalcedon.

You can purpose that, I didn’t.

Without them, what do we have?

Primitive Christianity.

With them, what do you have?
A review of what men believed, during a particular era.
..A review of why men believed what they believed.
Another review of what men believed, during a latter particular era.
..Another review of why men believed what they believed.
Again...Again...through passage of time...more councils...

AND?
IMO...the DIVISION becomes apparent...between men;
1) who believe, THIS, according to Gods Word, verified in Scripture.
2) who believe, THAT, according to mans word, not verified in Scripture.

I don’t believe that sets a man on “Primitive Christianity”, BUT RATHER, reveals...Even Councils of men “TRUSTED” as “church leaders”....
SHOULD BE HELD to the same scrutiny as ANY OTHER MAN...
IF;
What any man Speaks, Teaches...
IS: according to Gods Word verifiable IN Scripture.....or NOT.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Matthias]

You can purpose that, I didn’t.

Then keep them, but doing-so undermines the good point you were making.

With them, what do you have?
A review of what men believed, during a particular era.
..A review of why men believed what they believed.
Another review of what men believed, during a latter particular era.
..Another review of why men believed what they believed.
Again...Again...through passage of time...more councils...

AND?
IMO...the DIVISION becomes apparent...between men;
1) who believe, THIS, according to Gods Word, verified in Scripture.
2) who believe, THAT, according to mans word, not verified in Scripture.

You returned to your good point.

I don’t believe that sets a man on “Primitive Christianity”, BUT RATHER, reveals...Even Councils of men “TRUSTED” as “church leaders”....
SHOULD BE HELD to the same scrutiny as ANY OTHER MAN...
IF;
What any man Speaks, Teaches...
IS: according to Gods Word verifiable IN Scripture.....or NOT.

God Bless,
Taken

What is “Primitive Christianity”?

 

[Taken]

Then keep them, but doing-so undermines the good point you were making.

You returned to your good point.

From day Adam ate of the tree of GOOD and EVIL...every natural born man, is subject to the same premise, having to hear, listen, trust, believe......
what is Gods Word....
Or
What is mans word.

It’s a BIG Picture decision...The difficulty is:

* Mans word, CAN Be, quick and easy, with short term pleasures, and long term disaster.

* Gods Word, IS difficult, with short term tribulations, and long term joy.

What is “Primitive Christianity”?

You brought up that phrase, and can define what you mean.

 

[Matthias]

From day Adam ate of the tree of GOOD and EVIL...every natural born man, is subject to the same premise, having to hear, listen, trust, believe......
what is Gods Word....
Or
What is mans word.

It’s a BIG Picture decision...The difficulty is:

* Mans word, CAN Be, quick and easy, with short term pleasures, and long term disaster.

* Gods Word, IS difficult, with short term tribulations, and long term joy.

No doubt about it.

You brought up that phrase, and can define what you mean.

Yes. Your response to it in post #232 caused me to wonder if you understood what I meant. Your response in post #234 reinforces my doubt that you did.

 

[Matthias]

A simple working definition of “primitive Christianity”.

“the early Christian Church as it existed in its original character and organization for about the first three centuries A.D.”

Definition of PRIMITIVE CHURCH

It is the Church as it existed, in diverse ways, prior to the Councils which produced the creeds.

It is a transition, even a transformation, period in Church history.

 

[Taken]

A simple working definition of “primitive Christianity”.

“the early Christian Church as it existed in its original character and organization for about the first three centuries A.D.”

Definition of PRIMITIVE CHURCH

It is the Church as it existed, in diverse ways, prior to the Councils which produced the creeds.

It is a transition, even a transformation, period in Church history.

Everyone.....Jews and Gentiles were hearing, learning, SOMETHING NEW, little bit, by little bit, sporadically.... and really.... WHAT they were hearing...Were Gods Mysteries. What a HUGE TASK for a handful of men, especially, with Power sitting men, and the majority of the population at large...thinking the handful are psycho or devil possessed.

The Church began as a Declaration of Jesus.
The First congregates were the faithful chosen JEWISH Disciples, then following disciples were, as well included and given TASKS, being sent out to preach.
The First “meetings” were in Streets, fields, gardens, Temple, homes, and Synagogues...long before Gentiles squeezed in and began teaching and preaching according to the Word of God and Outside of the Word of God.

Yes, most things do Begin “small”, “simple”, bit, by bit, primitive.

 

[farouk]

The way the Church became the state religion. It seems Satan could not destroy the Church through persecution, that only made it stronger. So he had the powers that be marry the Church and the Church became corrupt and something it was never meant to be.

@RLT63 The lesson is indeed to practise Acts 2.42 activities in simplicity and not get mixed up in politics.....

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

There’s too much to respond to in your post in one post, so I’ll pick one.

Jesus didn’t say that he himself is the God of the living, nor does he say that the Trinity is the God of the living.

The God of the living is his God.

Yes he did say he is the God of the living in fact ! and that's what he is truly about, so that you will have life abundantly ! That's the Gift !
We must come from them ! this world of deceptions and delusions ! That's what Jesus said and was all about ! The Kingdom of God ! Not this world !

Jesus is the God of the Living in fact and not of the Dead ! If you have Christ Jesus you are his body ! and he is your Head ! One abides in him is his in fact, out side of that is they who are Anti-Christ, for they do not truly know etc for they do not abide in him.

Without the Holy Spirit you have nothing !

Without the Christ Jesus you have nothing !

Not to mention if one does not have Christ Jesus, one does not have God the Father in fact, because if one truly knows who Christ Jesus is, one would totally believe that No one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son ! see that !

Anyone who talks of God directly is a moron in fact ! For They are not truly born again in fact.

Jesus says that you must be born again. Then you can see. and your are not following a religion, but Christ Jesus in fact ! for he lives in you and you in him. 3 things one abides in the Holy Spirit, for this is needed and Christ Jesus for he is needed to come before God to be worthy !

The three are as one united in fact, you can not separate them for they are as one, when you understand what such truly is in fact.

Only a carnal man would think they can think they can make the 3 not so. Because the gift has not been truly given to such a one.
For if the Gift was truly given one would understand that the 3 are as one united regardless.

If one claims God is outside of the 3 then one is just religious, like the Jews or Islamic people are, for they do not know God in fact !

The Poor stupid Jews are lost to this world in fact and carry that bastard blight they call a Star, it's on their Flag ! Such is a man made symbol and not of God in fact as in Acts we see that Stephen points that out in fact what that symbol truly is, it's not truly Jewish ! it's Man made !
Just another Egyptian load of BS ? Just as that of the Golden Calf BS nonsense !

The Menora is worthy of God ! If one was a True Jew that would be on their Flag in fact. but the fact is that the only worthy Jew is a Christian in fact.

 

[Matthias]

Yes he did say he is the God of the living in fact ! and that's what he is truly about, so that you will have life abundantly ! That's the Gift !
We must come from them ! this world of deceptions and delusions ! That's what Jesus said and was all about ! The Kingdom of God ! Not this world !

Jesus is the God of the Living in fact and not of the Dead ! If you have Christ Jesus you are his body ! and he is your Head ! One abides in him is his in fact, out side of that is they who are Anti-Christ, for they do not truly know etc for they do not abide in him.

Without the Holy Spirit you have nothing !

Without the Christ Jesus you have nothing !

Not to mention if one does not have Christ Jesus, one does not have God the Father in fact, because if one truly knows who Christ Jesus is, one would totally believe that No one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son ! see that !

Anyone who talks of God directly is a moron in fact ! For They are not truly born again in fact.

Jesus says that you must be born again. Then you can see. and your are not following a religion, but Christ Jesus in fact ! for he lives in you and you in him. 3 things one abides in the Holy Spirit, for this is needed and Christ Jesus for he is needed to come before God to be worthy !

The three are as one united in fact, you can not separate them for they are as one, when you understand what such truly is in fact.

Only a carnal man would think they can think they can make the 3 not so. Because the gift has not been truly given to such a one.
For if the Gift was truly given one would understand that the 3 are as one united regardless.

If one claims God is outside of the 3 then one is just religious, like the Jews or Islamic people are, for they do not know God in fact !

The Poor stupid Jews are lost to this world in fact and carry that bastard blight they call a Star, it's on their Flag ! Such is a man made symbol and not of God in fact as in Acts we see that Stephen points that out in fact what that symbol truly is, it's not truly Jewish ! it's Man made !
Just another Egyptian load of BS ? Just as that of the Golden Calf BS nonsense !

The Menora is worthy of God ! If one was a True Jew that would be on their Flag in fact. but the fact is that the only worthy Jew is a Christian in fact.

Thanks.

My quota is full. He’s one of yours @RLT63.