Did God Forsake Jesus?

[Stranger]

God judged Jesus Christ for OUR sin.

Our sins are included because Sin was judged on the Cross. "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;" (2 Cor. 5:21)

Stranger

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I said what (2 Cor. 5:21) said. " For he hath made him to be sin for us,

You did not in post #13. Here are your words there, '~Christ, Who now became sin for us~'.

Jesus Christ was not '~being judged by God for Sin~', his!

And THEREFORE was NOT '~forsaken by God when the Sin of the world was laid upon Him~".
But God "VEILED" Him "in the flesh", "in the Most Holy Place" "under his wings", "in the shadow of the Almighty", as He "went through the Valley of Death" SUFFERING AND DYING THE DEATH OF DEATH WITH EAGERNESS and URGENCY, "Not My Will but THY WILL, BE DONE!"

He not '~recoiled~' from it, but Jesus prayed his Father, "BRING ON, PASS ME THIS CUP ... that I may EAT this passover I DESIRED TO EAT, yet not My Will, but THY WILL, BE DONE!"

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Jesus had one will, one desire, one faith, one aim and purpose, one hope of glory, his Father's Will obeyed and honoured!

 

[kit]

Shortly after the veil is torn. The veil disallowed humans to look onto God. When Christ took on the sins of humanity, did Jesus become unable to look unto God, in accordance with the existing covenant? And as also fully man, did Christ express this fact in very human terms of fear and shock at this horrible new experience?

Or maybe that doesnt work because Jesus is the Priest, entering in the Holy of Holies to gain atonement for all?

Or maybe Jesus is the veil, torn open to allow humans to 'look onto God?'

Well, before I go off on tangent what Im really wondering is: did Jesus become veiled from seeing God due to holding our sins, rather then being forsaken by God?

Edit; i hadn't yet seen post #22 which seems to speak to this(?) when I was writing this post

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Our sins are included because Sin was judged on the Cross. "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;" (2 Cor. 5:21)

There is no sin than our sin.

 

[Stranger]

You did not in post #13. Here are your words there, '~Christ, Who now became sin for us~'.

Jesus Christ was not '~being judged by God for Sin~', his!

And THEREFORE was NOT '~forsaken by God when the Sin of the world was laid upon Him~".
But God "VEILED" Him "in the flesh", "in the Most Holy Place" "under his wings", "in the shadow of the Almighty", as He "went through the Valley of Death" SUFFERING AND DYING THE DEATH OF DEATH WITH EAGERNESS and URGENCY, "Not My Will but THY WILL, BE DONE!"

He not '~recoiled~' from it, but Jesus prayed his Father, "BRING ON, PASS ME THIS CUP ... that I may EAT this passover I DESIRED TO EAT, yet not My Will, but THY WILL, BE DONE!"

That is right. Christ became sin for us. "For he hath made him to be sin for us" (2 Cor. 5:21) I don't see the problem here.

I didn't say Jesus Christ ever sinned. I said, that He became sin for us. Just as (2 Cor. 5:21) says.

All judgement against sin was leveled at Jesus Christ. He was being judged by God as guilty of all sin. Thus He had to die, physically and spiritually. Which is why He cried out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me". Because for a time He was forsaken. That is the result of spiritual death. Separation from God.

Jesus did not go eagerly. He went faithfully, and soberly. But He recoiled at that which He knew He must endure. You present a false picture of Jesus going to the cross.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

There is no sin than our sin.

The sins you and I commit are the product of being born with the disease of Sin. That Sin was past down from Adam. Jesus paid the price for Sin, which covered all sins everyone will commit.

Stranger

 

[lforrest]

I'm surpized no one has mentioned. Galatians 3:13

I have understood this or rather the part of it from the law as God the Father making a commitment to himself that he will curse anyone, even his son, if they are hung from a pole.

When Jesus cried out it was due to the separation he felt. He likely never felt anything like it, always hearing from his Father.

 

[Suneses]

Ah...that sounds so sweet. "God did not forsake Jesus...sometimes we do...but not God". Too bad it is such a lie. That is what the serpent said also. (Gen. 3:4) "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Surely the Father would not allow Jesus to die, just because He was the substitute for us? Well, if Jesus did not die, then our sins are not paid for.

Do you think that only physical death is the payment for sin? Death involves body, soul, and spirit. Death is separation. Spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God. That spiritual death must be endured else the payment is no good. With Christ who was the Son, that spiritual death meant the separation of the Father from the God/Man, Jesus Christ, Who now became sin for us. This is what Jesus recoiled at in the Garden. The physical death, as bad as it was, did not touch the spiritual death Christ must endure.

Jesus Christ was not being judged by Rome as a criminal. He was being judged by God as Sin.

The fake news is what you are attempting to present. The lie of the serpent. 'Thou shalt not surely die." Sounds good though and many here will jump at it. It fits the old hen theology of love, love, love. God just loved Jesus so much He would never forsake Him. Nausea.

Stranger

My comment about fake news was tongue-in-cheek in reference to the last statement I made, which was: **Another interesting fact: all Eastern Bibles have “for this purpose I was spared” while the Occidental translations read “why hast thou forsaken me.

But……

Your rebuttal of my post is exactly what fake news is about… making stuff up that I never said…or implied.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Another interesting fact: all Eastern Bibles have “for this purpose I was spared” while the Occidental translations read “why hast thou forsaken me.

What is the difference between 'Eastern' and 'Occidental'?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

That is right. Christ became sin for us. "For he hath made him to be sin for us" (2 Cor. 5:21) I don't see the problem here.

Obvious. But I do.
We discuss HOW Jesus RECEIVED the Father's Will or Doing. You say, '~Jesus did not go eagerly. ... He recoiled at that which He knew He must endure~' which is directly against and opposite of '~He went faithfully, and soberly~'. Without any 'but' or, 'must'!

So, which one of YOUR 'pictures' is the false one? Since you posed only one self-contradicting statement, YOU '~present a false picture of Jesus going to the cross~'.

 

[Stranger]

Obvious. But I do.

'~became sin~' is Active, Christ the Doer; "made to be sin" is Active, Christ the Object, passively receiving the doing.

We discuss HOW Jesus RECEIVED the Father's Will or Doing. You say, '~Jesus did not go eagerly. ... He recoiled at that which He knew He must endure~' which is directly against and opposite of '~He went faithfully, and soberly~'. Without any 'but' or, 'must'!

So, which one of YOUR 'pictures' is the false one? Since you posed only one self-contradicting statement, YOU '~present a false picture of Jesus going to the cross~'.

Well, just pretend that (2 Cor. 5:21) is not the Word of God. It is just a mans error. Get your marker and blot it out.

I did not present a false picture. I presented the real picture which was in contrast to what you presented.

(Luke 22:39-44) "And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down and prayed, Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. "

(Matt. 26:36-38) "Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

(Heb. 5:7) "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death and was heard in that he feared."

Jesus Christ went to the Cross faithfully and soberly, but with much dread. Not 'eagerly' as you want to present. I believe that in Jesus whole life here on this earth, He dreaded that day and it was always on His mind.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

My comment about fake news was tongue-in-cheek in reference to the last statement I made, which was: **Another interesting fact: all Eastern Bibles have “for this purpose I was spared” while the Occidental translations read “why hast thou forsaken me.

But……

Your rebuttal of my post is exactly what fake news is about… making stuff up that I never said…or implied.

It is easy to say things.

Stranger

 

[brakelite]

I believe Jesus Christ was forsaken for a time on the Cross. That God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, yes. But it was God the Son on the Cross. The Father and Son certainly maintained a relationship during the Sons stay on earth as Jesus Christ. But, once the sin of the world was laid upon the Son, the Father must move away. It is the Son alone who is the sin bearer.

Jesus Christ was never mistaken or wrong in what He said. He asked 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me' because He knew He had been forsaken. This was a break in the relationship that had always existed throughout eternity. And He felt it. The Son was hanging there alone as a guilty Man. This was what Christ drew back from in the garden when He said, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:". (Lu. 22:42)

This does not affect God's omnipresence. It is just that presence that the Son and Father always had was broken. But of course this was restored before Christ died. (Lu. 23:46) "...Father into thy hands I commend my spirit: "

Stranger

Giday mate. I don't find myself in agreement with you that often, and there is a small detail here I could debate, but overall, I agree with the above, and subsequent post further down. If Jesus wasn't fully and completely separated from His Father, that is fully and completely die just as the sinner must die and experience that same separation if he refuses the mercy of God offered through the blood of Christ, if the Son was not a full propitiation, taking all the penalty, paying the full ransom, then we are still miserably and utterly lost.

 

[bbyrd009]

I said what (2 Cor. 5:21) said. " For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;" Christ became sin on the Cross and was judged by God. Thus He was forsaken by God when the Sin of the world was laid upon Him.

Stranger

that's not what Psalms says though is it

 

[bbyrd009]

It is easy to say things.

Stranger

no kidding

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

prayed, Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

You understand these words as most people do because they have not yet thought outside the groove which the Church has cut out for them to stay thinking in.

Jesus because He "strongly desired" to drink it prayed his Father to "remove this cup IF You WILLED". He placed the Father's Will before his own, "Not MY Will, but YOUR Will be done!" Jesus PRAYED, knowing full well that his Father's Will was One with his own Will and in no respect or minuscule differed. Jesus meant, "I delight to do YOUR Will", THEREFORE, "Not My Will, but YOUR Will, My Father, BE!" Only a Will in full and perfect agreement and harmony and with singleness of Purpose, can pray, "Not My Will but YOUR Will be done!"

Christ dreaded nor recoiled, but "PRAYED" that his Father's Will must be done and was done. His Father's Will was Jesus' Will yet He gave his Father's Will ALL CREDIT AND HOMAGE AND HONOUR AND GLORY: "Not My Will, but Your Will BE!" "IF THOU BE WILLING, remove this cup from Me". but you know, My Father, what My Will is; IT IS YOUR WILL!

'parenengke', 'parapheroh' - 'para' + 'pheroh', 'remove' x 1 Luke 22:41 "take away" x 1 Mark 14:36
'para' - "by" / "with" / "trans-" - "-pass"
'pheroh' - "bring" x 33; "reach" / "reach hither" / "come" / "rush"- not once in KJ rendered 'remove' or 'take away'.
Therefore, "Bring on! Pass me the Cup!" -- not, "Remove" it from Me.

 

[Willie T]

You understand these words as most people do because they have not yet thought outside the groove which the Church has cut out for them to stay thinking in.

Jesus because He "strongly desired" to drink it prayed his Father to "remove this cup IF You WILLED". He placed the Father's Will before his own, "Not MY Will, but YOUR Will be done!" Jesus PRAYED, knowing full well that his Father's Will was One with his own Will and in no respect or minuscule differed. Jesus meant, "I delight to do YOUR Will", THEREFORE, "Not My Will, but YOUR Will, My Father, BE!" Only a Will in full and perfect agreement and harmony and with singleness of Purpose, can pray, "Not My Will but YOUR Will be done!"

Christ dreaded nor recoiled, but "PRAYED" that his Father's Will must be done and was done. His Father's Will was Jesus' Will yet He gave his Father's Will ALL CREDIT AND HOMAGE AND HONOUR AND GLORY: "Not My Will, but Your Will BE!" "IF THOU BE WILLING, remove this cup from Me". but you know, My Father, what My Will is; IT IS YOUR WILL!

'parenengke', 'parapheroh' - 'para' + 'pheroh', 'remove' x 1 Luke 22:41 "take away" x 1 Mark 14:36
'para' - "by" / "with" / "trans-" - "-pass"
'pheroh' - "bring" x 33; "reach" / "reach hither" / "come" / "rush"- not once in KJ rendered 'remove' or 'take away'.
Therefore, "Bring on! Pass me the Cup!" -- not, "Remove" it from Me.

Might be one more place where our "translators" misdirected our thinking?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Might be one more place where our "translators" misdirected our thinking?

I didn't say that, but explained how even "remove" or "take away" should be understood as were it the Father's Will, Jesus still wanted his Father's Will be HIS OWN WILL AND OBEDIENCE.

I'm sorry that I am unable to do better; but Jesus was not 'recoiling' or whatever from drinking the Cup or DO HIS FATHER'S WILL, forever NOT as FOREVER NOT the Father 'forsook' his Son!

 

[Willie T]

I didn't say that, but explained how even "remove" or "take away" should be understood as were it the Father's Will, Jesus still wanted his Father's Will be HIS OWN WILL AND OBEDIENCE.

I'm sorry that I am unable to do better; but Jesus was not 'recoiling' or whatever from drinking the Cup or DO HIS FATHER'S WILL, forever NOT as FOREVER NOT the Father 'forsook' his Son!

I think you explained it excellently. Our translators actually DID deliberately write it so that English speakers would assume that Jesus became scared and wanted to get out of doing the very thing He same to Earth to do. I fully believe that God NEVER turned His back on Jesus...… not even for a moment.