Did Jesus claim to be God?

[GracePeace]

What precisely does not suffice what? Please identify the what1 and the what2 with precision. I prefer to argue precisely. That's why I have put some people on ignore because of their lack of precision in their sentences.

I'm not sure how it could be any clearer: the statement "it is a divine mystery" doesn't suffice anywhere else (and, as you confirmed, you would not, and do not, use that as an answer on other Biblical topics), therefore it doesn't suffice here.

 

[RedFan]

I'm not sure how it could be any clearer: the statement "it is a divine mystery" doesn't suffice anywhere else (and, as you confirmed, you would not, and do not, use that as an answer on other Biblical topics), therefore it doesn't suffice here.

As Sir Isaac Newton once commented, “It is the temper of the hot and superstitious part of mankind in matters of religion ever to be fond of mysteries, and for that reason to like best what they understand least.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm aware there are arguments for both sides, and I don't think I've seen a complete and total resolution.

It is apparent to me that on reading the arguments “for” the belief, (and I have read them all) we find that in all cases, suggestions are forced into the English translation, that if read in the original language, does not always stay true to the original text......bias crept in and changed the way it should have been translated.

The most widely used scripture to “prove” the trinity is John 1:1, which in English reads....
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Read in Greek it says something different, especially when you understand the Greek meaning of “theos” (god).
Strongs gives the primary definition of “theos” as...

1. “a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”.

So, read the way it should have been translated ....
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE God, (“ho theos”...Yahweh) and the Word was divine. (“theos”)

Jesus can be “divine” without being “deity”.

Coupled with the scriptures already presented, we can see that there is no honest scriptural basis for this belief that is really blasphemous because it places another “god” in the same position as the Father.....A clear breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

In verse 14 it says...
“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

So “the Word (ho logos) became flesh”, not “THE God” (“ho theos”).

Verse 18...
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Thousands of people saw Jesus. So there is a contradiction straight away.
In Greek “the only begotten son” translated there is actually “”monogenes theos” or “only begotten god”.
There is no “son” in that verse. But Christendom often translates it as “son” because they cannot explain how the eternal God can be “begotten”.

Strongs.....”monogenes”...

1. single of its kind, only
   1. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
   2. used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

So “monogenes” in Greek means an “only child”....it is a word used in other scripture to mean just that.

Jesus himself confirms that he is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)

I find the arguments against this belief much more compelling than the scare tactics used to enforce it.....”you cannot call yourself a Christian unless you believe this”.....that is utter nonsense when there is no direct statement from either God or Jesus that they share equality in any form of godship.

 

[Johann]

Jesus' opponents thought that Jesus claimed to be God.

Some actions are attributed to both God and Jesus
Christ

Luke 8:38–39 The man from whom the demons had gone out
begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying,
39“Return to your home, and declare what God has done for
you.” So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole
town what Jesus had done for him. NET

Mark 2:5–7 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic,
“Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6Now some of the experts in the
law were sitting there, turning these things over in their
minds: 7“Why does this man speak this way? He is
blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” NET
Although the teachers of the law were mistaken in thinking
that Jesus could not forgive sins, they were correct in
asserting that the authority and capacity to forgive sins
belongs to God.

Note: There is one God, the Father – and one Lord,
Jesus Christ

1Cor 8:4–6 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols,
we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there
is no God but one.”
5For although there may be so-called gods
in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and
many “lords”— 6
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from
whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord,
Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom
we exist. ESV

Verses that refer to the Father alone as being God, may be
using “God” to refer to the position of sovereign over all (cf.
1Tim 6:15) – i.e. they may be using “God” to refer to an
exclusivity of position rather than exclusivity of divine nature.
(This may also be the case with other verses that speak of
there being only one “God”.) Such a meaning is: consistent
with the words translated as “God”/“god” in the OT originally
speaking primarily of strength; consistent with the references
to the Father being Jesus Christ’s God (cf. God is both Jesus
Christ’s God and his Father, p. 30); and not contrary to Jesus
Christ being fully divine. However, such an interpretation is
not standard Christian theology.

d) Jesus Christ Is Treated like God Is
The fact that Christians relate to (or treat) Jesus Christ in ways
in which they relate to God, further reflects Jesus Christ’s
identification with God and that he is God’s Son. Thus the
teaching in this section supplements the teaching in the
previous sections.

Jesus Christ is worshiped
Matt 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying,
“Truly you are the Son of God.” ESV
The disciples worshiped Jesus as the Son of God.
Jesus Christ is honored and glorified
John 5:22–23 Furthermore, the Father does not judge
anyone, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that
all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The
one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father
who sent him. NET

2Pet 3:18 [PETER, TO BELIEVERS:] But grow in the grace and
knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Glory be to him
now and forever! Amen. NCV™

People pray to Jesus Christ
John 14:14 [JESUS, TO HIS DISCIPLES:] If you ask me anything
in my name, I will do it. NET
Acts 7:59–60 They continued to stone Stephen while he
prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

60Then he fell to his
knees and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this
sin against them!” When he had said this, he died. NET
People obey and serve Jesus Christ

Matt 28:19–20a [JESUS, TO HIS DISCIPLES:] Therefore go and
make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them
to obey everything I have commanded you. NET
James 1:1a From James, a servant of God and of our Lord Jesus
Christ. CEV

People have faith in Jesus Christ
John 14:1 Jesus said to his disciples, “Don’t be worried! Have
faith in God and have faith in me. CEV
30 3. Jesus Christ

People put their hope in Jesus Christ
1Thes 1:3b [PAUL, TO THE THESSALONIAN BELIEVERS :] And we
thank him that you continue to be strong because of your
hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. NCV™
e) Jesus Christ Is Under God’s Authority

This section looks at the concept of Jesus Christ being
subordinate to God in regard to authority – which involves
“functional subordination” – as opposed to subordination or
inferiority in regard to essence or being.

The concept of Jesus Christ being eternally subordinate to
God (rather than only during his incarnation) is a historical
doctrine that is still debated by Christian scholars. As such,
some would disagree with or wish to qualify propositions put
forward in this section.

God is both Jesus Christ’s God and his Father
John 20:17 Jesus replied, “Do not touch me, for I have not yet
ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I
am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and
your God.’” NET

Eph 1:3, 17 [PAUL, TO BELIEVERS:] Blessed is the God and
Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every
spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. … 17I pray
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may
give you spiritual wisdom and revelation in your growing
knowledge of him, … NET

The expression “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”
(v. 3) also occurs in Romans 15:6, 2 Corinthians 1:3 and
1 Peter 1:3. 2 Corinthians 11:31 uses the similar expression,
“The God and Father of the Lord Jesus …”
Jesus Christ is described as being subordinate to God
1Cor 11:3 [PAUL:] But I want you to know that Christ is the
head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and
God is the head of Christ. NET

1Cor 15:28 But when everything has been put under him,
then the Son himself will also become subject to the one who
put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. ISV
Jesus Christ was chosen and sent by God
Luke 9:35 A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my
Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to him!” NCV™
John 8:42 Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would
love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have
not come on my own initiative, but he sent me. NET
Jesus Christ is God’s servant

Acts 4:30 [THE EARLY BELIEVERS, PRAYING TO GOD:] Stretch
out your hand to heal, and grant that wonders and miracles
may be performed through the name of your holy Servant
Jesus. GNT

Heb 8:2 He [Christ] serves as High Priest in the Most Holy
Place, that is, in the real tent which was put up by the Lord,
not by human hands. GNT
God’s seniority is reflected by the things that he has
done for Jesus Christ
John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has
granted the Son also to have life in himself. ESV
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in
the Son … NET

Heb 1:1–2 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God
spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days
he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir
of all things, through whom also he created the world. ESV

d) Jesus Christ as Lord of All
God has made Jesus Christ Lord of all things, to rule over all
creation on God’s behalf.
The NT speaks of Jesus Christ’s lordship as being initiated or
affirmed, in him being pronounced Lord of all upon his postresurrection exaltation to God’s right hand. However, note
that some verses suggest that in some sense at least he was
Lord of all things prior to this, speaking of his prior power or
authority over all things.
Following his resurrection, God exalted Jesus Christ
to his right hand . . .
Eph 1:20 This power he exercised in Christ when he raised
him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the
heavenly realms … NET

In seating Jesus Christ at his right hand, God exalted Jesus
Christ in honor and authority above every other being.
. . . and God made Jesus Christ Lord of all

Acts 10:36 You know the message he [God] sent to the people
of Israel, proclaiming the Good News of peace through Jesus
Christ, who is Lord of all. GNT

Phil 2:9–11 As a result [of Jesus being obedient and dying]
God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every
name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow – in
heaven and on earth and under the earth –

11and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
NET
Verses 10–11 speak of all people in the future acknowledging
Jesus Christ’s status, which itself is a current reality.
God has given Jesus Christ authority and power over
all things
Matt 28:18 Then Jesus came up and said to them [his
disciples],“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given
to me. NET
Phil 3:20b–21 Our Lord Jesus Christ 21has power over
everything, and he will make these poor bodies of ours like
his own glorious body. CEV

God has entrusted everything to Jesus Christ – and
made him heir of all things
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has put everything in
his hands. ISV
Heb 1:1–2 [THE WRITER, TO JEWISH BELIEVERS:] Long ago, at
many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by
the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by
his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through
whom also he created the world. ESV

 

[GracePeace]

It is apparent to me that on reading the arguments “for” the belief, (and I have read them all) we find that in all cases, suggestions are forced into the English translation, that if read in the original language, does not always stay true to the original text......bias crept in and changed the way it should have been translated.

The most widely used scripture to “prove” the trinity is John 1:1, which in English reads....
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Read in Greek it says something different, especially when you understand the Greek meaning of “theos” (god).
Strongs gives the primary definition of “theos” as...

1. “a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”.

So, read the way it should have been translated ....
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE God, (“ho theos”...Yahweh) and the Word was divine. (“theos”)

Jesus can be “divine” without being “deity”.

I think the "fairest" interpretation of that verse, confirmed by the (trinitarian!) theologian Daniel B. Wallace, has been "What God was, the Word was". This does not add or remove from the "equality with God" doctrine, yet it does not go so far as to explicitly import or assert "the Word was God".

Coupled with the scriptures already presented, we can see that there is no honest scriptural basis for this belief that is really blasphemous because it places another “god” in the same position as the Father.....A clear breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

In verse 14 it says...
“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

So “the Word (ho logos) became flesh”, not “THE God” (“ho theos”).

Verse 18...
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Thousands of people saw Jesus. So there is a contradiction straight away.
In Greek “the only begotten son” translated there is actually “”monogenes theos” or “only begotten god”.
There is no “son” in that verse. But Christendom often translates it as “son” because they cannot explain how the eternal God can be “begotten”.

Strongs.....”monogenes”...

1. single of its kind, only
   1. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
   2. used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

So “monogenes” in Greek means an “only child”....it is a word used in other scripture to mean just that.

Jesus himself confirms that he is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)

I find the arguments against this belief much more compelling that the scare tactics used to enforce it.....”you cannot call yourself a Christian unless you believe this”.....that is utter nonsense when there is no direct statement from either God or Jesus that they share equality in any form of godship.

The issue is that God was said to have been married to His people in the OT, and, in the NT, we see that Jesus is the one who occupies that office. However, John teaches that when Isaiah saw God, it was actually Jesus, preserving "no one has ever seen God". So, being that Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God, in that sense, He actually has been referred to as "God" (eg, in Isaiah), and yet we have all these statements that no one has seen God (but many saw Jesus), and that Jesus's God is the only true God... so it may, in that sense, not be wrong to call Jesus "God", as long as you don't say He is His own God (since He has a God), and as long as you don't break the distinction between Christ as "the image of the invisible God" (not God) and God, since Eph 5 establishes that just as men are above women, so Christ is above men, and God is above Christ.

For unrelated reasons in Scripture, there were Binitarian, "Two Powers In Heaven", Jews even prior to Christianity.

It is difficult.

 

[GracePeace]

@Aunty Jane Also, Moses, a foreshadow of Christ, the prophet "like Moses", was told, "You will be as God, and Aaron will be your prophet". (Christ even uses the same phrase about Himself that was used of Moses--"the people believed in God, and believed in Moses", and Christ said, "Believe in God, believe also in Me.")
Moses was "as God", so that may speak to the issue-- that Jesus is "as God"?

 

[TonyChanYT]

Stop trying to squeeze poison into areas of scripture

Can you be more specific? I prefer to debate people who can think and write precisely.

 

[TonyChanYT]

I'm not sure how it could be any clearer

If you cannot, then I can't continue this conversion. I prefer to debate people who can be more precise.

 

[GracePeace]

If you cannot, then I can't continue this conversion. I prefer to debate people who can be more precise.

You mean that you want to find a way to excuse yourself from the discussion, because you know you can't defend your position? That's fine. You don't have to pretend someone is being "imprecise". LOL That's called "false witness", which is against God's Law.

 

[GracePeace]

If you cannot, then I can't continue this conversion. I prefer to debate people who can be more precise.

As I said, the statement "it is a divine mystery" doesn't suffice anywhere else (and, as you confirmed, you would not, and do not, use that as an answer on other Biblical topics), therefore it doesn't suffice here.

You want to pretend there is some "imprecision" in that--that is called "dishonesty" and mishandling of peoples' words, so it would be no wonder if you mishandled God's Word as well.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think the "fairest" interpretation of that verse, confirmed by the (trinitarian!) theologian Daniel B. Wallace, has been "What God was, the Word was". This does not add or remove from the "equality with God" doctrine, yet it does not go so far as to explicitly import or assert "the Word was God".

It’s another translation but still not what is presented in the Greek....trinitarian will make the verse say what they want it to, one way or another. There are two “gods” in that verse...only one is Yahweh....the other is a divinely authorised representative of his Father, who showed us what his God was like as he was the perfect representative.

John 10:31-36 also adds to our bank of scriptures, showing us what “theos” and “ho theos” mean in scripture. That one little word changes what Christendom’s translations ignore.
God called human judges in Israel “gods“ because of their divine authority as his representatives.....why can it not apply to Jesus in the same way?

If we had a definitive statement about this topic, instead of squeezing pre-conceived assumptions into ambiguous verses....this topic would have been put to bed ages ago.....but it still rages. Both sides cannot be right.

The issue is that God was said to have been married to His people in the OT, and, in the NT, we see that Jesus is the one who occupies that office.

Christ’s bride are chosen by God. Jesus spent all night in prayer to his Father before the founding members were chosen.
We need to ask why Jesus has a bride, and why God has a wife....are they the same people?

God’s relationship with Israel was related to a marriage because it was a fine way to demonstrate to Israel what their unfaithfulness meant, and how it affected God as the husband of a repeatedly unfaithful wife. (Jeremiah 31:31-32)
But he had convenanted with them to produce his Messiah and he kept his covenant until he fulfilled his end of it. When they murdered his son, and a new covenant was established in his death, he abandoned his unfaithful wife. (Matt 23:37-39)

Christ’s bride OTOH, would be faithful to the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:33-34) and would remain faithful until their death. (Rev 2:10) Upon being resurrected, they were to take their position as “kings and priests” bringing their rulership to redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 20:6; Rev 21:1-4)

However, John teaches that when Isaiah saw God, it was actually Jesus, preserving "no one has ever seen God". So, being that Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God, in that sense, He actually has been referred to as "God" (eg, in Isaiah), and yet we have all these statements that no one has seen God (but many saw Jesus), and that Jesus's God is the only true God... so it may, in that sense, not be wrong to call Jesus "God", as long as you don't say He is His own God (since He has a God), and as long as you don't break the distinction between Christ as "the image of the invisible God" (not God) and God, since Eph 5 establishes that just as men are above women, so Christ is above men, and God is above Christ.

“O what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”....how fitting is that old expression when it relates to the works of the devil. He has been deceiving mankind from the beginning and with much practice, he will continue to do so as we head into the conclusion of these “last days”.
If Christ has God as head above him, then he cannot be God.

This is the period of the devil’s great anger knowing he has only a short time left. He is assaulting mankind with all manner of trouble, politically, socially, spiritually and morally....every avenue of human endeavour is being met with insurmountable and for the most part, unsolvable problems by human means. God must step in soon to rectify the situation.....only God’s kingdom can solve mankind’s problems and replace corrupt human rulership with the one that is incorruptible and that will last forever. (Daniel 2:44)

Unless we are aware of satan’s activities and his hold over Christendom and her doctrines, we will never see our way out of the confused maze that he has created. Confusion is his his main MO...and it works well for him.

For unrelated reasons in Scripture, there were Binitarian, "Two Powers In Heaven", Jews even prior to Christianity.

It is difficult.

It’s always difficult when we stray from the clear word of God, trying to fit doctrines in where they never were....at best the Bible does speak of only two entities who have our future and our best interests in their capable hands.....only one of them is “The Almighty”.....and he has a son who serves his Father’s interests and always has.......but if we succumb to the tricks of the other powerful entity, who is vying for our worship and who is an enemy of God and of the truth, we will be part of the deluded majority who are unwittingly traveling the wrong road. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

 

[GracePeace]

It’s another translation but still not what is presented in the Greek....trinitarian will make the verse say what they want it to, one way or another.

Actually, that (ie, "What God was, the Word was") was a massive concession on his part--and that translation has even been lauded by Unitarians.

There are two “gods” in that verse...only one is Yahweh....the other is a divinely authorised representative of his Father, who showed us what his God was like as he was the perfect representative.

In that verse, His identity does not rely on Him being a representative to humans, since He hadn't created humans at that point--His identity had to do with how He related to God.

John 10:31-36 also adds to our bank of scriptures, showing us what “theos” and “ho theos” mean in scripture. That one little word changes what Christendom’s translations ignore.
God called human judges in Israel “gods“ because of their divine authority as his representatives.....why can it not apply to Jesus in the same way?

Obviously, because Jesus is something other than a mere human being--Jesus created human beings. LOL Christ is a Creator.

If we had a definitive statement about this topic, instead of squeezing pre-conceived assumptions into ambiguous verses....this topic would have been put to bed ages ago.....but it still rages. Both sides cannot be right.

True, both sides cannot be right--but I believe people on either side can be saved.

Christ’s bride are chosen by God. Jesus spent all night in prayer to his Father before the founding members were chosen.
We need to ask why Jesus has a bride, and why God has a wife....are they the same people?

According to what I've explained about the issue, it's really more of a difficulty for your position than it is for mine.

God’s relationship with Israel was related to a marriage because it was a fine way to demonstrate to Israel what their unfaithfulness meant, and how it affected God as the husband of a repeatedly unfaithful wife. (Jeremiah 31:31-32)

Well, I contend it's just one of the ways God relates to His people--two of those ways, for instance, would be "Father", and "Husband". Then, Israel was His people, so He was their Father and Husband, but, today, He's both Father and Husband to anyone who believes (believers are God's people).

But he had convenanted with them to produce his Messiah and he kept his covenant until he fulfilled his end of it. When they murdered his son, and a new covenant was established in his death, he abandoned his unfaithful wife. (Matt 23:37-39)

Well, it seems they will, one day, again be His people, and that will also be the time they are "wedded" to God again.

Christ’s bride OTOH, would be faithful to the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:33-34) and would remain faithful until their death. (Rev 2:10) Upon being resurrected, they were to take their position as “kings and priests” bringing their rulership to redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 20:6; Rev 21:1-4)

The Jews, when they return, will be incorporated into the Church.
There won't be two brides (1. "Israel", and 2, "the Church"--they'll become part of the Church), there will be one bride, one people of God.

If Christ has God as head above him, then he cannot be God.

Yeah, I agree--that would be an argument against Christ being God.
However, there is strong evidence on the other side of the scale, as well.

It’s always difficult when we stray from the clear word of God, trying to fit doctrines in where they never were...

Actually, the whole discussion arose because many people do not see the Word of God as being clear on this issue. Do you think ALL the people who would disagree with you, including the pre-Christian Jewish "Two Powers In Heaven" Binitarians, are disagreeing for no reason?

...at best the Bible does speak of only two entities who have our future and our best interests in their capable hands.....only one of them is “The Almighty”.....and he has a son who serves his Father’s interests and always has...

Pre-Christian Binitarian, "Two Powers In Heaven", Jews LOL

...but, again, your position has a problem when Isaiah says He saw God high and lofty, and was undone, and John defines that vision as Isaiah having seen Jesus.
It is bad to make yourself appear knowledgeable or correct by falsely accusing people of "imprecision", or to hide behind false veils of so-called "mystery", as if that "answers" a tough question, but it's just as bad to make an issue out to be overly simplistic (ie, to dismiss evidence just so you can hastily arrive at a conclusion--any conclusion). It's better to be patient, pray about it, and finally arrive at a solution that checks all the boxes, respects all the evidence.

 

[Webers_Home]

~
Mankind's entrance into the grand scheme of things was via earthen
construction materials rather than by means of God reproducing Himself
(Gen 1:26-27). In other words: mankind's image and likeness of God wasn't
inherited from father to son like as when Seth's image and likeness of Adam
was inherited from father to son. (Gen 5:3)

Christ is described as God's begotten son; and in point of fact, Christ is the
only one of God's many sons who became His next of kin that way. (John
1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, Heb 11:17, 1John 4:9)

In other words; Christ is God's sole paternal descendant because that's what
the Greek word for begotten means in those verses. Agencies like the
Watchtower Society insist monogenes means something different, and no
surprise because reproduction doesn't support their version of Christ's
association with God.

So then, if true that Christ is God's paternal descendant-- i.e. His literal next
of kin- --then it must be that Christ is just as divine as God, as Seth was just
as human as Adam.

FAQ: Are not born-again Christians God's paternal children?

REPLY: Were they God's paternal children, they would be divine beings
because like produces like, i.e. they would inherit their Father's characteristics.

No; born-again Christians are not God's paternal children, rather, they are
God's handiwork (2Cor 5:17 Eph 2:10 Eph 4:24 Col 3:9-10) and taken into
His home by means of adoption rather than God multiplying Himself. (Rom
8:15, Gal 4:5, Eph 1:5)

FAQ: If God were to reproduce Himself, wouldn't that result in more deities
than the one?

REPLY: No; it would result in the one God extending Himself. For example: Adam
is the only human life that God created directly from dust. Adam's multiplication
doesn't result in additional human species, no, we are all still that one man and
no more.

● Acts 17:26 . . From one man he made every nation of men

● 1 Cor 15:22 . . In Adam all die
_

 

[marks]

@marks what do you think if this? Curious!

The first thing that comes to mind is where Jesus tells the Jews, Before Abraham was, I am.

This is to say, Before Abraham did exist in the past, I do exist in the present. Only an eternal being can say that.

And as was already pointed out, the Jews who heard Him understood Him to be saying He is God, and therefore accused Him of Blasphemy.

Personally, I don't think there is any other conclusion than that Jesus is in fact our Creatory God.

Much love!

 

[dev553344]

The first thing that comes to mind is where Jesus tells the Jews, Before Abraham was, I am.

This is to say, Before Abraham did exist in the past, I do exist in the present. Only an eternal being can say that.

And as was already pointed out, the Jews who heard Him understood Him to be saying He is God, and therefore accused Him of Blasphemy.

Personally, I don't think there is any other conclusion than that Jesus is in fact our Creatory God.

Much love!

Yes I would agree!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Actually, that (ie, "What God was, the Word was") was a massive concession on his part--and that translation has even been lauded by Unitarians.

As I recall, Unitarians believe that Jesus was “the son of God” in the flesh only.....they do not subscribe to the idea that Jesus was a separate entity in heaven “with God” before He was “sent” to the earth, so because I do hold that belief, I do not agree with Unitarians on this point.

“What God was, the Word was” does not describe my belief at all. The Word was always in an inferior position to his God and Father....”the head of the Christ is God”, so they cannot be equals. Jesus answers to God.
What they can both be is spirit beings, as all who inhabit the spirit realm are spirits....invisible life forms created by the invisible God.

In that verse, His identity does not rely on Him being a representative to humans, since He hadn't created humans at that point--His identity had to do with how He related to God.

Obviously, because Jesus is something other than a mere human being--Jesus created human beings. LOL Christ is a Creator.

Yet not once is Jesus ever called “the Creator”. He existed “with God” “in the beginning”.....since God is eternal, he had no beginning, but Jesus did, as the first of his Father’s creations. (Rev 3:14) He was used as the agency “through whom” creation was brought into existence.

Col 1:15-17...
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all things were made to exist”.

As “the firstborn of all creation”he had to be part of that creation.

John 1:2-3 also confirms that statement....
“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”

As the agency of creation, he is not the Creator, but the one working alongside his Father in the process.....he is the “us” and “our” of Genesis 1:26. As wisdom personified he was personally and emotionally involved with the creation of humans. (Prov 8:27-31)

True, both sides cannot be right--but I believe people on either side can be saved.

For me this is a salvation issue.
John 17:3....
“This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
Our everlasting life depends on “knowing the only true God” AND “the one he sent, Jesus Christ”

So unless we know who the only true God is, and we acknowledge the one he sent as his son, we will not have everlasting life to look forward to.

According to what I've explained about the issue, it's really more of a difficulty for your position than it is for mine.

I don’t see it that way.

Well, I contend it's just one of the ways God relates to His people--two of those ways, for instance, would be "Father", and "Husband". Then, Israel was His people, so He was their Father and Husband, but, today, He's both Father and Husband to anyone who believes (believers are God's people).

From the perspective of Israel, it suited his purpose to identify them as his “wife”. It was a figurative relationship after all, and as her “husbandly owner” he was responsible for her welfare. We saw how he took his people through the wilderness and provided food and water that were miraculously produced for 40 years, despite the fact that their wilderness wandering was a punishment for their disobedience, he still cared for them because they were part of his means of salvation, not just for Israel, but for all mankind.

Their clothing and footwear did not wear out either so he acted responsibly on their behalf as Moses led them in worship and saw to it that the people understood what God was doing, instructing them in his ways so that at the end of the 40 year trek, a new generation was ready to enter the Promised Land.

Well, it seems they will, one day, again be His people, and that will also be the time they are "wedded" to God again.

God has obtained a legal ‘divorce’ from his unfaithful ‘wife’ and has cast her off. (Matt 23:37-39)
He chose a new “Israel” according to the apostle Paul.....this “people” were made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus Christ as Messiah. (Matt 21:42-46)
These were called “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) which are spiritual Jews, faithful to God because his fleshly nation never could do as they were told. They disqualified themselves.

The Jews, when they return, will be incorporated into the Church.
There won't be two brides (1. "Israel", and 2, "the Church"--they'll become part of the Church), there will be one bride, one people of God.

Yes one bride....made up entirely of “the Israel of God”.....those of the fleshly Jews who came to Jesus first, followed by the Gentile believers who came later. The fleshly nation of Israel no longer has God’s blessing or approval as has been demonstrated by her behavior in shedding blood as just one of the many blood spilling nations who curry friendship with the world, but make themselves “enemies of God” (James 4:4)
She has allied herself with nations whose worship she despises, to garner friendship with a world ruled by satan (1 John 5:19)

 

[Aunty Jane]

The first thing that comes to mind is where Jesus tells the Jews, Before Abraham was, I am.

He never said that…..
Read the Jewish Tanakh and see what God’s name means….
Exodus 3:13-15….

13 “And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God (יְהֹוָ֞ה) of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.”		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥

It was never a statement of God’s existence because Israel already knew who their God was…..his name (יְהֹוָ֞ה) took on the broader meaning of “I will be what I will be”…meaning that he would “be“ whatever he needed to be in order to bring about his purpose in connection with his chosen nation.
Exodus 3:15 has no connection at all with John 8:58.
Jesus said “I am” many times without once inferring that he was God.

This is to say, Before Abraham did exist in the past, I do exist in the present. Only an eternal being can say that.

The Jews had asked him a question about his age, not his status as a deity.
Jesus said…John 8:56-58….
”Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
If you look up Strongs Concordance his response as recorded there is correct. He was saying that he existed before Abraham was even born.

And as was already pointed out, the Jews who heard Him understood Him to be saying He is God, and therefore accused Him of Blasphemy.

No they did not…they thought he was claiming to be the divine…..”the son of God”…..because not once is he ever quoted as saying he shared any kind of equality with his God and Father.
Again look up the passage (John 10:31-36) in a Greek Interlinear and see that they knew the difference between “theos” and “ho theos”. That is the difference between divinity and deity.

The Jews were keen to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus because it gave them an excuse to execute him.
At first Pilate found him not guilty of any punishable offense and wanted to free him….but the Jews threatened his political career by insinuating that he was allowing this future “king” to rule in Caesar’s place…sedition was a capital offense, so Pilate acquiesced, throwing in a flogging to appease the protesters.

Personally, I don't think there is any other conclusion than that Jesus is in fact our Creatory God.

And that there is the basis upon which all will be judged….reaching the right conclusions. If we reach the right conclusion by carefully examining the scriptures, understanding that there are no contradictions in God’s word, then everlasting life is the reward…..but if the wrong conclusions are reached and the scriptural truth has been revealed, but rejected, then judgment is to be expected…..

We await that judgment in the very near future…..so this is one issue that we cannot afford to get wrong because we have to “know” who the “only true God” is, and acknowledge “the one he sent, Jesus Christ”. (John 17:3)

This is a salvation issue.

 

[GracePeace]

As I recall, Unitarians believe that Jesus was “the son of God” in the flesh only.....they do not subscribe to the idea that Jesus was a separate entity in heaven “with God” before He was “sent” to the earth, so because I do hold that belief, I do not agree with Unitarians on this point.

OK

“What God was, the Word was” does not describe my belief at all. The Word was always in an inferior position to his God and Father....”the head of the Christ is God”, so they cannot be equals. Jesus answers to God.

"What God was, the Word was", to my mind, makes Christ's being, in a sense, contingent upon God's being--but God is not contingent upon Christ. I'm not saying they're equals in that sense.
But even Philippians 2 will tell you Christ had equality with God--"What God was, the Word was".

What they can both be is spirit beings, as all who inhabit the spirit realm are spirits....invisible life forms created by the invisible God.

Are you saying Christ is created or are you saying that that would be the view of Unitarians?

Yet not once is Jesus ever called “the Creator”. He existed “with God” “in the beginning”.....since God is eternal, he had no beginning, but Jesus did, as the first of his Father’s creations. (Rev 3:14) He was used as the agency “through whom” creation was brought into existence.

"Apart from Him nothing was made that was made."

Col 1:15-17...
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all things were made to exist”.

As “the firstborn of all creation”he had to be part of that creation.

Yet we have no Scripture that says Wisdom/Christ was "created".
Wisdom/Jesus was never "created" (Bara), He was "possessed" (Qanah) by God.
Can you imagine if wisdom actually didn't exist when God existed?
Are you saying the Almighty was a fool before He "created" wisdom?
Impossible! He "possessed" Wisdom.
"Firstborn" just refers to His rank over creation.

John 1:2-3 also confirms that statement....
“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”

Right, He's the co-Creator with God.

As the agency of creation, he is not the Creator, but the one working alongside his Father in the process.....he is the “us” and “our” of Genesis 1:26. As wisdom personified he was personally and emotionally involved with the creation of humans. (Prov 8:27-31)

Apart from Him nothing was made, so, yes, actually, He is co-Creator.
Makes sense, too--like Joseph worked together with Jesus as a carpenter.

For me this is a salvation issue.
John 17:3....
“This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
Our everlasting life depends on “knowing the only true God” AND “the one he sent, Jesus Christ”

No, we can know God even without being theologians.
People do not have to have perfect doctrine to know God.
We know Him because of His mercy (Jer 31:34).

So unless we know who the only true God is, and we acknowledge the one he sent as his son, we will not have everlasting life to look forward to.

No, you're adding words to God's Word, just as Eve did "If we eat of the tree, or touch it, we will die."

From the perspective of Israel, it suited his purpose to identify them as his “wife”. It was a figurative relationship after all, and as her “husbandly owner” he was responsible for her welfare. We saw how he took his people through the wilderness and provided food and water that were miraculously produced for 40 years, despite the fact that their wilderness wandering was a punishment for their disobedience, he still cared for them because they were part of his means of salvation, not just for Israel, but for all mankind.

Their clothing and footwear did not wear out either so he acted responsibly on their behalf as Moses led them in worship and saw to it that the people understood what God was doing, instructing them in his ways so that at the end of the 40 year trek, a new generation was ready to enter the Promised Land.

God has obtained a legal ‘divorce’ from his unfaithful ‘wife’ and has cast her off. (Matt 23:37-39)
He chose a new “Israel” according to the apostle Paul.....this “people” were made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus Christ as Messiah. (Matt 21:42-46)
These were called “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) which are spiritual Jews, faithful to God because his fleshly nation never could do as they were told. They disqualified themselves.

Yes one bride....made up entirely of “the Israel of God”.....those of the fleshly Jews who came to Jesus first, followed by the Gentile believers who came later.

It's not really relevant to the topic, so we'll let that go for now.

The fleshly nation of Israel no longer has God’s blessing or approval as has been demonstrated by her behavior in shedding blood as just one of the many blood spilling nations who curry friendship with the world, but make themselves “enemies of God” (James 4:4)
She has allied herself with nations whose worship she despises, to garner friendship with a world ruled by satan (1 John 5:19)

I couldn't agree with you more that Israel views us as their enemy (Gal 4:21-31; 1 Th 2:15).

 

[RedFan]

Yet we have no Scripture that says Wisdom/Christ was "created".

“The Lord created me at the beginning of his
work, the first of his acts of long ago.
Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with
water. Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth—
when he had not yet made earth and
fields, or the world’s first bits of soil.”
—Proverbs 8:22–26

 

[GracePeace]

“The Lord created me at the beginning of his
work, the first of his acts of long ago.
Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with
water. Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth—
when he had not yet made earth and
fields, or the world’s first bits of soil.”
—Proverbs 8:22–26

Oops, you answered before having read.

Proverbs 18
13He who answers a matter before he hears it—
this is folly and disgrace to him.