Did Jesus say that we are supposed to attend church?

[Marymog]

not sure how you mean this so please define before I comment.

You acknowledge YOUR validity and YOUR authority. Not others validity and authority. True or not?

You think YOU are best to lead sheep to the truth....not an institution.

 

[amigo de christo]

The real problem with Bible alone, is that it gets in the way of teachings and traditions of men apart from God.

There are people who really, really like lies over truth, especially when they really really study them very very carefully.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Who would want to forbid men to marry, or to abstain from certain meats?

Those who reject the Bible is the sole source for traditions and doctrine and commandment of God.

Why go through all the psycho-babble of pretended honor toward Scripture, in order to reject Scripture? Just be open and honest about it, and say you don't want to be limited by Scripture, because you really like a bunch of other stuff outside Scripture.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

You acknowledge YOUR validity and YOUR authority. Not others validity and authority. True or not?

You think YOU are best to lead sheep to the truth....not an institution.

No, I acknowledge the authority on the commission in which I operate. I have no entity between me and the CIC nor do I need consult or seek approval of any. (often times those entities (churches) are in fact the major problem to be solved)

No institution of man has any authority to do anything except royally screw up anything they touch. Certainly none whatsoever over any who are called and answer.

I have led sheep to the truth and removed them from the teeth of the wolf. Been there and done it.

As to the authority of others- I am neither "unique" nor am I alone. I would speculate ( based on Earths population) there are tens of millions with a like commission in various specialties. Those who are not against the Shepherd are with the Shepherd and we know who he is and who they are.

 

[Marymog]

No, I acknowledge the authority on the commission in which I operate. I have no entity between me and the CIC nor do I need consult or seek approval of any. (often times those entities (churches) are in fact the major problem to be solved)

No institution of man has any authority to do anything except royally screw up anything they touch. Certainly none whatsoever over any who are called and answer.

I have led sheep to the truth and removed them from the teeth of the wolf. Been there and done it.

As to the authority of others- I am neither "unique" nor am I alone. I would speculate ( based on Earths population) there are tens of millions with a like commission in various specialties. Those who are not against the Shepherd are with the Shepherd and we know who he is and who they are.

YOU, a man, has led sheep to the truth and removed them from the teeth of the wolf but men of a church lead sheep away from the truth and to the teeth of the wolf??????????????????????? Hmmmm......Fascinating. Why are YOU better then the men of any church?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

YOU, a man, has led sheep to the truth and removed them from the teeth of the wolf

Yes and its not the "man" but who is within the man that does the heavy lifting.

but men of a church lead sheep away from the truth and to the teeth of the wolf?

I don't recall saying that but it depends on the people in the church and who they follow. The "church" is nothing more than a man made organization and has no more "power' than its members give it. God is no respecter of men or his denominations.

Fascinating. Why are YOU better then the men of any church?

I don't consider myself "better' than anyone but one big difference is that when I was rescued and had my Paul moment- I humbled myself and obeyed. I took up the armor and willing get into the octagon when required. That's what makes the difference.

 

[FHII]

I keep hearing people complain about "man made Churches". Well, we are supposed to grow spiritually, put off the old man (flesh man), and put on the new man (spiritual). I agree!

But the problem is that any Church is going to start in the flesh. Jesus himself was God in the flesh. We are supposed to grow spiritually through Church while still being in the flesh. But until we move on (I mean... Die) we are going to be in the flesh!

So the bottom line is that yes, we do need a man made Church because we are men (human). Jesus was a man, Paul was a man, Peter was a man and on down the line. What we must do is take their teaching to become spiritual, so that when we move on, we know who we really are.

But I see people bashing "man made Churches", as if they weren't men (human) and above it.

And us carnal folk see through it... You ain't no better than us and frankly, probably worse off.

God rarely talked to congregations. He usually spoke to one man... A sinner of flesh and blood! And let them talk to the people.

 

[Marymog]

I don't recall saying that but it depends on the people in the church and who they follow.

The "church" is nothing more than a man made organization and has no more "power' than its members give it. God is no respecter of men or his denominations.

Hi Sheepdog,

I will admit you didn’t flat out say that however you have implied it when you said that denominational or institutional churches have no authority and only screw things up and are a problem.

The Church is not a man made organization. According to Scripture The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, was built by Jesus and has the authority to decide who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector. The Church is led by men who are in charge of your soul and who are worthy of double honor. There are many more passages I could elude to that describe The Church but why waste my time. You have convinced yourself that you are right.

 

[Marymog]

I keep hearing people complain about "man made Churches". Well, we are supposed to grow spiritually, put off the old man (flesh man), and put on the new man (spiritual). I agree!

But the problem is that any Church is going to start in the flesh. Jesus himself was God in the flesh. We are supposed to grow spiritually through Church while still being in the flesh. But until we move on (I mean... Die) we are going to be in the flesh!

So the bottom line is that yes, we do need a man made Church because we are men (human). Jesus was a man, Paul was a man, Peter was a man and on down the line. What we must do is take their teaching to become spiritual, so that when we move on, we know who we really are.

But I see people bashing "man made Churches", as if they weren't men (human) and above it.

And us carnal folk see through it... You ain't no better than us and frankly, probably worse off.

God rarely talked to congregations. He usually spoke to one man... A sinner of flesh and blood! And let them talk to the people.

Hi FHII,

I agree with your “bottom line”. I only wish @An Apologetic Sheepdog would be wise enough to consider your argument for a “man made church”. What I don’t think he understands is that he has made himself a church. A church of one! He is in charge of Scripture interpretation which leads to doctrine which leads to teaching the Truth of that doctrine. He has placed himself in charge of his soul and has made himself worthy of double honor. But I digress....

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

I will admit you didn’t flat out say that however you have implied it when you said that denominational or institutional churches have no authority and only screw things up and are a problem.

The statement is correct. No "church" (as an organization) has any authority from God at all. And from experience, in many (not all) cases, the larger they get- the worse they become. That's a personal observation which is not a point of debate nor am I saying its a global "truth".

The Church is not a man made organization. According to Scripture The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, was built by Jesus and has the authority to decide who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector.

No, that's a non argument like saying the Titanic sank because of a state of negative buoyancy and ignoring the direct cause.

Jesus built (that's figurative) a church (organization of individual humans just like cells in a body under him alone) based on a statement made by Peter. This cellular relationship by example was to be decentralized and led by a head elder ( there is no scripture requiring individual churches to bond into organizations and few if any did).

Nowhere did Jesus (or anyone else) give any of these "collectives" any authority to do anything outside their individual walls.

The Church is led by men who are in charge of your soul and who are worthy of double honor.

NO "mere man" is "in charge" of anything (especially another's soul). That's an individual matter between the man and Jesus. Jesus doesn't "save" churches or denominations- he saves humans. A church is nothing more that a hub for group therapy. Even the individual is charged with searching scripture and independently learning so the "church" is not the authority on scripture either.

I only wish @An Apologetic Sheepdog would be wise enough to consider your argument for a “man made church”. What I don’t think he understands is that he has made himself a church. A church of one! He is in charge of Scripture interpretation which leads to doctrine which leads to teaching the Truth of that doctrine. He has placed himself in charge of his soul and has made himself worthy of double honor. But I digress....

I understand it completely and in detail.

 

[Marymog]

NO "mere man" is "in charge" of anything (especially another's soul). That's an individual matter between the man and Jesus. Jesus doesn't "save" churches or denominations- he saves humans. A church is nothing more that a hub for group therapy. Even the individual is charged with searching scripture and independently learning so the "church" is not the authority on scripture either..

Oh goodness Sheepdog.....In regard to your theory that “no mere man is in charge of anything”Scripture (Hebrews 13:17, John 20:23, Acts 20:28, 1 Timothy 5:17, 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1:9 etc etc) says completely OPPOSITE of what you believe. Does that not concern you when the Bible teaches OPPOSITE of what you teach? Also, I never suggested nor has The Church taught that Jesus saves churches soooooo I don’t even understand why you said that. Your just arguing with yourself now.

I missed the passage in scripture that says I am charged with searching scripture and I am the authority on Scripture. Can you quote that passage to me?

Curious Mary

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Curious Mary

Must defer answering your post until after work due to the detail it will entail- not overlooking it

 

[Marymog]

Jesus built (that's figurative) a church (organization of individual humans just like cells in a body under him alone) based on a statement made by Peter. This cellular relationship by example was to be decentralized and led by a head elder ( there is no scripture requiring individual churches to bond into organizations and few if any did).

Nowhere did Jesus (or anyone else) give any of these "collectives" any authority to do anything outside their individual walls..

Sheepdog,

PLEASE help me understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that any man can start a church, make up the rules (doctrine, dogma) for that church and the only authority that man has is inside their individual walls? Anyone that joins that individual church must obey the leader of that church (Hebrews 13:17)? The leader of that church is worthy of double honor by the members of that church (1 Timothy 5:17)>

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

PLEASE help me understand what you are saying here.

will do my best

Are you saying that any man can start a church, make up the rules (doctrine, dogma) for that church and the only authority that man has is inside their individual walls?

Gotta break that down

With the context and understanding that what I am saying ONLY applies to a legitimate "church" of the Living Jesus and not any variation of the frauds which we may or may not obviously see with our human senses.

any man who is legitimately instructed by the "Holy Spirit" to start a "congregation" ( assembly, group, whatever- all of these qualify as a "church") is authorized to do so. Such a group is as legitimate as any other in the sight of Jesus and man's opinion at that point is a non issue.

That "man" then has the duty ( I probably should use the word "mandate" since compliance is not voluntary but duty conveys the obligation) to follow the rules as set in scripture. That is not license or authority for that "man" to make up anything and the "man" has no authority- the word of Scripture is the authority. Its no different than when I relayed an order in the Army- I was the Sergeant but when I relate the Colonel's words, they carry his rank and authority, not mine.

If this "man" violates any part of that ( excusing honest error we humans do) then his "appointment" is then invalidated by the same authority that put it there initially.

Anyone that joins that individual church must obey the leader of that church (Hebrews 13:17)?

No, they are not members of the church to submit their will to the preacher ( or whatever term you apply to the "man' in question)- they are there to worship in an organized manner. In this "organization" there will be many who have differing gifts (which wont be the "man") that contribute to the body.

The leader of that church is worthy of double honor by the members of that church (1 Timothy 5:17)>

Yes, in the same manner as a Sr NCO, i am "worthy" of "whatever" due to my rank, position and authority but the Captain and Colonel are too and theirs exceeds mine in that same context.

"Double Honor" or other accolades is a perk, not a letter of promotion assigning them a position of command.

 

[Marymog]

will do my best



Gotta break that down

With the context and understanding that what I am saying ONLY applies to a legitimate "church" of the Living Jesus and not any variation of the frauds which we may or may not obviously see with our human senses.

any man who is legitimately instructed by the "Holy Spirit" to start a "congregation" ( assembly, group, whatever- all of these qualify as a "church") is authorized to do so. Such a group is as legitimate as any other in the sight of Jesus and man's opinion at that point is a non issue.

That "man" then has the duty ( I probably should use the word "mandate" since compliance is not voluntary but duty conveys the obligation) to follow the rules as set in scripture. That is not license or authority for that "man" to make up anything and the "man" has no authority- the word of Scripture is the authority. Its no different than when I relayed an order in the Army- I was the Sergeant but when I relate the Colonel's words, they carry his rank and authority, not mine.

If this "man" violates any part of that ( excusing honest error we humans do) then his "appointment" is then invalidated by the same authority that put it there initially.

No, they are not members of the church to submit their will to the preacher ( or whatever term you apply to the "man' in question)- they are there to worship in an organized manner. In this "organization" there will be many who have differing gifts (which wont be the "man") that contribute to the body.

Yes, in the same manner as a Sr NCO, i am "worthy" of "whatever" due to my rank, position and authority but the Captain and Colonel are too and theirs exceeds mine in that same context.

"Double Honor" or other accolades is a perk, not a letter of promotion assigning them a position of command.

Yup...that’s what I assumed you believed.

So please do educate me. WHO decides WHAT man “is legitimately instructed by the "Holy Spirit" to start a "congregation"? WHO decides if that man “violates any part” of the rules of Scripture?

How can one group that believes totally opposite of another group with both groups believing When the teachings/doctrines/dogma of one group, that believes that their leader was legitimately instructed by the Holy Spirit, is OPPOSITE of another group, who ALSO believes their leader was instructed by the Holy Spirit, WHO decides which group is right in their doctrine???

Can you not see how this theory that was taught to you is not logical or sustainable and opposite of what Scripture teaches? How will Jesus prayer in John 17:21-23 ever be answered under your theory? It is IMPOSSIBLE to fulfill Romans 15:6 if Christianity practices your theory. Matthew 18:17 can never be fulfilled if man implements your theory.

Surely you can see how this theory you have been taught is not biblical OR logical?

 

[Marymog]

"Double Honor" or other accolades is a perk, not a letter of promotion assigning them a position of command.

That is completely and utterly NOT TRUE!!! It is not a “perk”!!

It is BECAUSE they are in a “position of command” that they are worthy of double honor. Scripture makes that VERY clear....Who taught you this stuff?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

So please do educate me. WHO decides WHAT man “is legitimately instructed by the "Holy Spirit" to start a "congregation"?

Only the Holy Spirit makes that decision and the "fruits" of his actions judged against scripture will determine the legitimacy of the calling. That's why WE as individuals (not a church) are commanded to discern by the scripture.

How can one group that believes totally opposite of another group with both groups believing When the teachings/doctrines/dogma of one group, that believes that their leader was legitimately instructed by the Holy Spirit, is OPPOSITE of another group, who ALSO believes their leader was instructed by the Holy Spirit, WHO decides which group is right in their doctrine???

That is a question of the ages and a very legitimate one with only one answer in context to Scripture. Scripture is the judge and the Holy Spirit is the ultimate authority. No body of man meets either qualification. The individual is required to actually study, learn and discern. ( part of the growth process of a Christian)

Can you not see how this theory that was taught to you is not logical or sustainable and opposite of what Scripture teaches?

What I said is 100% accurate and 100% Scripture

How will Jesus prayer in John 17:21-23 ever be answered under your theory?

Simple, the Spirit glorifies the Son which directly goes back to the first line item. If that's not happening then that calls into question the legitimacy of the initial calling and the discernment process begins.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to fulfill Romans 15:6 if Christianity practices your theory.

Not at all as the same Holy Spirit is in all. Any deviation or contradiction in various doctrines comes down to this:
A is wrong and B is correct; B is wrong and A is correct; A & B are both wrong and need correcting.

That goes back again to measuring by Scripture and discernment in accordance with the Holy Spirit

Plus in Romans (including verse 5) that was an admonishment to that specific crowd in the form of a request- not a clear directive to all humanity ( context is important)

Matthew 18:17 can never be fulfilled if man implements your theory.

Actually it is. In that context, the "church" is an assembly of believers ( in that also a small group as was common and composed of locals who know the individual) which is the exact "group therapy" I referenced earlier. Its fulfilled perfectly.

Surely you can see how this theory you have been taught is not biblical OR logical?

Its not a "theory" and has been proven in actual "combat" (not academic discussions) and it works very well.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

That is completely and utterly NOT TRUE!!! It is not a “perk”!!

It is BECAUSE they are in a “position of command” that they are worthy of double honor. Scripture makes that VERY clear....Who taught you this stuff?

No, they are in a position of LEADERSHIP ( that's not command) and leadership is by EXAMPLE (as Jesus frequently called them on)- not by appointment and yes "honor" is a perk- "authority" is a directive.

Scripture makes that very clear too

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

In regard to your theory that “no mere man is in charge of anything”Scripture (Hebrews 13:17, John 20:23, Acts 20:28, 1 Timothy 5:17, 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1:9 etc etc) says completely OPPOSITE of what you believe.

OK, had some time

No it doesn't and here are a few you list to make the point which actually shores up what I have already said.

Hebrews 13:7- The "rule" word in some versions is G2233 hegeomai which means to "lead" as in a guide (implying they are blazing a trail)- that's a point man, not the commander

John 20:23- That's taken out of context in this regard. Those people were direct eye witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus and were getting the Apostles office commission. They did in fact have the power to speak as the authority. That authority died with them and is not applicable to any humans since them. That's not applicable to any human or church today.

Acts 20:28- The term is "overseer" as in care taker (notice the descriptions of the acts) plus it points out as I did as a direct commission of the Holy Spirit. None of that even hints as "command authority"

1 Tim 5:17- that's context as "manage' as in a working supervisor as is indicated by the rest of the passage and the next about doing work and muzzling the oxen. Also the position of "elder" is an administrative role- not the Commander.

All of those directly support what I have been saying, thanks

Does that not concern you when the Bible teaches OPPOSITE of what you teach?

Because it doesn't

Also, I never suggested nor has The Church taught that Jesus saves churches soooooo I don’t even understand why you said that. Your just arguing with yourself now.

Just reinforcing a point- not a direct reference to you specifically

I missed the passage in scripture that says I am charged with searching scripture and I am the authority on Scripture. Can you quote that passage to me?

Here are some to get you started but let me clarify. The "authority" is the Holy Spirit- your mandate is to study diligently and listen/obey when directed. Your "authority" on scripture will be directly related to the effort you put in.

2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 22.29; Romans 15:4; Luke 24:27; 2 Peter 1: 19-21; Acts 17:2

If you have any questions on them, let me know and i will answer them for you

 

[Marymog]

OK, had some time

No it doesn't and here are a few you list to make the point which actually shores up what I have already said.

Hebrews 13:7- The "rule" word in some versions is G2233 hegeomai which means to "lead" as in a guide (implying they are blazing a trail)- that's a point man, not the commander

John 20:23- That's taken out of context in this regard. Those people were direct eye witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus and were getting the Apostles office commission. They did in fact have the power to speak as the authority. That authority died with them and is not applicable to any humans since them. That's not applicable to any human or church today.

Acts 20:28- The term is "overseer" as in care taker (notice the descriptions of the acts) plus it points out as I did as a direct commission of the Holy Spirit. None of that even hints as "command authority"

1 Tim 5:17- that's context as "manage' as in a working supervisor as is indicated by the rest of the passage and the next about doing work and muzzling the oxen. Also the position of "elder" is an administrative role- not the Commander.

All of those directly support what I have been saying, thanks



Because it doesn't



Just reinforcing a point- not a direct reference to you specifically



Here are some to get you started but let me clarify. The "authority" is the Holy Spirit- your mandate is to study diligently and listen/obey when directed. Your "authority" on scripture will be directly related to the effort you put in.

2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 22.29; Romans 15:4; Luke 24:27; 2 Peter 1: 19-21; Acts 17:2

If you have any questions on them, let me know and i will answer them for you

Oh goodness.....Sooooooo scripture makes it clear that some men were chosen by the Holy Spirit to lead the church and guide men to the Truth BUT you believe that no man has been chosen by the Holy Spirit to guide men to the Truth to guard the sheep against false teachers.....Simply FASCINATING!

Well, according to your theory, I guess Everyman can read scripture on his own and figure out what the Truth is and no one can call another a false teacher.

 

[Marymog]

No, they are in a position of LEADERSHIP ( that's not command) and leadership is by EXAMPLE (as Jesus frequently called them on)- not by appointment and yes "honor" is a perk- "authority" is a directive.

Scripture makes that very clear too

Did you miss the part of Scripture that says they were chosen by the Holy Spirit?

I feel like you are joking with me but sadly I think you are being serious.