Dispensationalism versus Hyper-Dispensationalism

[mjrhealth]

This one question. When did the law ever save anyone?

The Bible says it only condemns.

I don't see it anywhere in the OT for anyone was declared righteous because of the law.

Never stopped a whole bunch of religious men from holding onto that which is not theres.

 

[gadar perets]

Well the law is by works and it is what you insist upon.. it is for sinners and the unrighteous, and it is what you forever add to grace..

I cannot add the law to grace since the law was never removed from grace. Grace works hand in hand with the law. Grace was given to many OT saints while they were obeying the Law.

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
​

Do you use it lawfully? No. You abolish it so that you cannot receive what is good from it. And you accuse me of using it unlawfully as a means of justification and salvation.

Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Learn the difference between the commandments and doctrines of men and the commandments and doctrines of YHWH and Yeshua.

Have no problem with the Law, it reminds the sinners and unrighteous of sin. it is what it does. Than it sleighs them as it is all it could do,

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

if our righteousness is by Christ, the law than does what??

Again you bring up righteousness (justification) by the law. Why? Because you are ignorant of the holiness and goodness of the Law.

 

[gadar perets]

This one question. When did the law ever save anyone?

The Bible says it only condemns.

I don't see it anywhere in the OT for anyone was declared righteous because of the law.

How about reading all my previous posts before asking foolish questions.

 

[CoreIssue]

How about reading all my previous posts before asking foolish questions.

How about you understanding Grace is a gift. Nothing you can do to get it.

 

[gadar perets]

How about you understanding Grace is a gift. Nothing you can do to get it.

I already know that. It's people like you who refuse to accept the fact that I have received unmerited grace which leads me to want to obey all my Father's commandments.

 

[CoreIssue]

I already know that. It's people like you who refuse to accept the fact that I have received unmerited grace which leads me to want to obey all my Father's commandments.

But you contradict yourself. There is no law of grace. If there was a law it would not be grace.

 

[gadar perets]

But you contradict yourself. There is no law of grace. If there was a law it would not be grace.

Where did I say there is a "law of grace"? Just as Yeshua was full of grace and truth, so am I and so should all his disciples be. Grace AND truth. What is truth? "Thy Law is the truth" (Psalms 119:142). Yeshua lived under the OC and yet was full of both. How much more should we be full of both under the NC?

 

[CoreIssue]

Where did I say there is a "law of grace"? Just as Yeshua was full of grace and truth, so am I and so should all his disciples be. Grace AND truth. What is truth? "Thy Law is the truth" (Psalms 119:142). Yeshua lived under the OC and yet was full of both. How much more should we be full of both under the NC?

Jesus also violated the law as did his apostles, David and others, who he defended in that breaking.

 

[gadar perets]

Jesus also violated the law as did his apostles, David and others, who he defended in that breaking.

Maybe your Jesus violated the law, but my Yeshua was sinless.

 

[mjrhealth]

I cannot add the law to grace since the law was never removed from grace. Grace works hand in hand with the law. Grace was given to many OT saints while they were obeying the Law.

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
​

Do you use it lawfully? No. You abolish it so that you cannot receive what is good from it. And you accuse me of using it unlawfully as a means of justification and salvation.


Learn the difference between the commandments and doctrines of men and the commandments and doctrines of YHWH and Yeshua.


Again you bring up righteousness (justification) by the law. Why? Because you are ignorant of the holiness and goodness of the Law.

Hmm still going round teh same circle. now why would Jesus demand keep the law that men cant keep. you seek to justify the law by your religion than you seek to justify your religion by the law. you can only serve one master, which is it, Christ the law or your religion.....

 

[gadar perets]

Hmm still going round teh same circle. now why would Jesus demand keep the law that men cant keep. you seek to justify the law by your religion than you seek to justify your religion by the law. you can only serve one master, which is it, Christ the law or your religion.....

You say the law can't be kept and Scripture says differently.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.​

Even if they broke a commandment here or there, YHWH still declared them righteous and blameless because they lived by faith which produced works of obedience to the Law.

I don't serve the Law. I serve YHWH and Yeshua and keep their commandments.

How are believers to walk?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
​

What is the Father's will for believers? "I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." He put His Law in our hearts so it would be obeyed, not so we would proclaim it is there, but then live like the devil.

What is "iniquity"?

Thayer's Definition:

1) the condition of without law

1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it​

2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

​

Which definition fits you?

 

[mjrhealth]

You say the law can't be kept and Scripture says differently.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.​

Even if they broke a commandment here or there, YHWH still declared them righteous and blameless because they lived by faith which produced works of obedience to the Law.

I don't serve the Law. I serve YHWH and Yeshua and keep their commandments.

How are believers to walk?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
​

What is the Father's will for believers? "I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." He put His Law in our hearts so it would be obeyed, not so we would proclaim it is there, but then live like the devil.

What is "iniquity"?

Thayer's Definition:

1) the condition of without law

1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it​

2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

​

Which definition fits you?

Love it when you yell, must be really upsetting, it is by the Spirit, and that is what I read in your words. And what is God s will,

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat_22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It has always being Love, it is why we are here, it is why God put out Spirit in an earthen vessel, it is why we where created, it is why Christ went to the cross, it is why we are forgiven when we come to Christ, it is why the believer has no sin imputed against him, it is why the righteous in Christ get to see God even now, it is why there is no more judgement for those in Christ, because they are already "dead" to sin it no longer has any bearing on there salvation, because they believe God and to them it is imputed as righteousness, not there work, cant earn any of it.

Still again which is it your serve Christ or the law,

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

so which is it.

Christ or the law, to whom is His church to be married.

Rom_7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

 

[gadar perets]

Love it when you yell, must be really upsetting, it is by the Spirit, and that is what I read in your words.

All capitals is yelling. Bold is to emphasize the aspect of the verse I am addressing.

And what is God s will,

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat_22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Yes, those Old Covenant laws are the foundation of love. It is interesting that you would use OC laws to show me how the law is abolished. LOL

It has always being Love, it is why we are here, it is why God put out Spirit in an earthen vessel, it is why we where created, it is why Christ went to the cross, it is why we are forgiven when we come to Christ, it is why the believer has no sin imputed against him, it is why the righteous in Christ get to see God even now, it is why there is no more judgement for those in Christ, because they are already "dead" to sin it no longer has any bearing on there salvation, because they believe God and to them it is imputed as righteousness, not there work, cant earn any of it.

I agree, except you forgot a few things. Love is why the Law was given to Israel. It is why the same Law is written inwardly under the NC. It is why we have verses like 1 John 5:3 and John 14:15.

Still again which is it your serve Christ or the law,

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

so which is it.

Christ or the law, to whom is His church to be married.

Rom_7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Believers, including me, are betrothed to Messiah. While we are in that spiritual condition, we are to be subject to the Law. Otherwise, we are yet carnal.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, those Old Covenant laws are the foundation of love. It is interesting that you would use OC laws to show me how the law is abolished. LOL

You missed it it is Love that is the foundation of the law. Love has always existed you know this bit

1Co_13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co_13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Believers, including me, are betrothed to Messiah. While we are in that spiritual condition, we are to be subject to the Law. Otherwise, we are yet carnal.

you where never subject to the law it was never given to you, you have chosen another mans husband which is Adultry, but round that wheel we g

And so remain in your sin.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth

 

[gadar perets]

You missed it it is Love that is the foundation of the law. Love has always existed

Sorry. Senior moment. I meant to write, "Yes, those Old Covenant laws are founded upon love.

you where never subject to the law it was never given to you

Paul wrote Romans 8 to believers who live in the spirit rather than the flesh. As such, all believers are subject to the law. If not, explain what Paul means.

 

[mjrhealth]

Paul wrote Romans 8 to believers who live in the spirit rather than the flesh. As such, all believers are subject to the law. If not, explain what Paul means.

No believers are subject to Love and Life in Christ. Not even the unbelieving gentiles are subject to the law, for the law was never given to the gentiles,

Rom_2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

and

Rom_4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

and again

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

but you remain in your sin because of teh law, as it is written

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

but you are still out to prove yourself and justify your law keeping even when it stands in complete opposition to grace,

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

You insist that righteousness doesnt come by the law, so that except for making you a sinner and condemning you to death, what purpose does it serve...

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

still pursuing after the flesh

 

[gadar perets]

No believers are subject to Love and Life in Christ. Not even the unbelieving gentiles are subject to the law, for the law was never given to the gentiles,

Rom_2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

and

Rom_4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

and again

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

but you remain in your sin because of teh law, as it is written

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

but you are still out to prove yourself and justify your law keeping even when it stands in complete opposition to grace,

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

You insist that righteousness doesnt come by the law, so that except for making you a sinner and condemning you to death, what purpose does it serve...

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

still pursuing after the flesh

I asked you to explain Romans 8:7 if you disagreed with my understanding of it. You chose not to explain it. Instead you, once again, start listing verses showing how righteous is not by works. Address my request and then, perhaps, I will address your post.

 

[mjrhealth]

I asked you to explain Romans 8:7 if you disagreed with my understanding of it. You chose not to explain it. Instead you, once again, start listing verses showing how righteous is not by works. Address my request and then, perhaps, I will address your post.

What will it change, you are right the mind stands against God, your pursuit of the law is quiet the evidence, you are supposed to be under grace but you keep running to the law, and that is unbelief, which is not faith and that is not pleasing to God no matter how you try by the flesh to prove your worth.

 

[gadar perets]

What will it change, you are right the mind stands against God, your pursuit of the law is quiet the evidence, you are supposed to be under grace but you keep running to the law, and that is unbelief, which is not faith and that is not pleasing to God no matter how you try by the flesh to prove your worth.

OK, so if you won't explain Romans 8:7, then we are done. I leave you in your ignorance.

 

[CoreIssue]

There is a long of disagreement over how many dispensations what they contain.

But we know God changed how he dealt with people as time progressed. Why is there argument over this?

As for church three or four different arguments about that as well. Why? The church is existed for 2000 years. What is important to that point today?