HI Michael,
I'm probably not going to answer every point you made in your last post to me, but just pick out a few things, as Axehead has given a clear account of the dangers Christians face when they agree with themselves, or a demon, to commit sin.
As I understand Romans 6, unless a person is ready to reckon themselves dead in Christ, they will continue to feed fleshly desires, Gal 5:16, some of which are sinful, and the others of which are purified through being joined to Him in His resurrection, by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of life.
The idea that a Christian can sin without opening himself to the powers of darkness, is a myth. Just because a Christian has a sinful desire, does not mean there is no demon waiting to ride in on its slip stream. Too much of what you say is an either-or option, whereas both can be true.
I really don't agree with what you wrote after 'but'. If a Christian can turn back to the world, can draw back from faith, can resist correction - it doesn't matter which way you slice it, that Christian is choosing disobedience; thus he is lining himself right up with Satan's mind.
There is nothing in the New Testament which can be used to prove that all demons leave when the Holy Spirit comes in, although for the most part I do believe they leave. However, the mentality of the new born-again believer will have a lot to do with whether demons stay away. It seems that sometimes a person who was not brought up in a Christian home, finds it easier to see the differences which the Holy Spirit makes, but not everyone is willing to be led on every point. Even from a Christian home, faulty thinking exists in the unregenerate mind. Simply being born again does not fix that overnight. It takes God time to work with the person's understanding and obedience, to bring them to whole-hearted agreement with His point of view.
Yes and no. We are responsible to repent once we recognise what is sin, and repentance from sin in a general way is a spiritual experience which no Christian should try to escape, but, the cross of Christ is about God taking responsibility for our sin - not that He sinned, but that He died in our place.
So, are you saying that the Christian who is walking in resurrection life with Christ through the Holy Spirit, still has no control over whether he sins?
Referring to Romans 6 again, surely that is the point of being planted in the death of Christ. There we die. There we rise in Him. Does a dead man have a fallen nature? Spiritually speaking he does not. He has only the flesh to contend with - a defeated foe in principle.
Well, there were seven nations in the land, not just canaanites. (Axehead left out the Girgashites, Deuteronomy 7:1) And in the Pentateuch, the use of the word 'nations' becomes a synonym for the (tribes of) demonic spirits associated with differing forms of idolatry. You are, no doubt, aware that the Israelites carried idols out of Egypt with them, and the whole wilderness time for that first generation - the generation that died there through unbelief - was about God showing us how our first birth (flesh) introduces us to and ingrains in us, varying forms of (self-)worship (idolatry), which if it remains unrepented, will kill us. God will not allow idolaters to inherit the land. Idolatry is synonymous with unbelief, too. Idols must be torn down and destroyed - not carried along as a fall-back worship system when we don't like what God is trying to do in our lives - Exodus 32:1, 3, 4.
Jesus has all authority since He did not sin, and since He was victorious over 'the sin' on the cross, destroying the devil and abolishing death. His authority is - like ours - based on His submission to God's will. But, Satan still exists - wounded and defeated - with limited strength. His limitation is demonstrated by the saints' having victory over sin in their own lives, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Before the cross there was no victory over sin; only bloodshed which God graciously accepted as a covering for sin. A soul could not be washed clean by the blood of Christ, and no-one on earth had authority over his own flesh, except Jesus. Now, the Holy Spirit is available to believers to overcome the flesh.
First, you might be assuming that a person receives demons only as a result of choosing to sin. Are you?
There are other ways a demon can come in: through traumatic circumstances, or, active sins of others; through fear; through being too young to resist effectively; through occult practices in which they were sacrificed on the altar of someone else's idolatry; and, through responses to all of the foregoing.
Again let me say that no-one in this discussion is calling the presence of demonic strongholds in a born-again believer's life, 'possession'. If he has received the Holy Spirit (God's response to his faith in Jesus Christ), then God has redeemed him, lock stock and barrel, in the condition that he was found by God, and if not all demons leave at that time, it is not his (the Christian's) worry, as long as he attends to obeying the Lord through the Spirit. The more he pulls through the battles over obedience to God (by obeying God), the more any residual strongholds will be broken and demons will leave. But it is pure conjecture on the part of those who possit that demons cannot inhabit a part of a Christian's life, purely because the Holy Spirit has come in. The Holy Spirit has come in (Jesus has entered the temple of his body) to drive out the enemies with the co-operation of the believer.
We all know that God has His own ways of gaining our co-operation (when it is not immediately forthcoming). It depends how deep the struggle and to some extent, the grip that certain ideas have upon the believer, whether or not demons are fighting to continue in his life. A person who has yielded to certain patterns of thought and behaviour may well have been holding the door open for demons for years without realising it. All I (and certain others) are saying, is, that there can be a process of taking back the land of one's life, rather than one lone initial crisis at new birth. New birth is all about receiving a new heart and a new spirit (the Holy Spirit), having come out of darkness into the light. The next step is to live in the light, so that any darkness which remains, is systematically challenged and dispelled. Demons do not wave a white flag and come out of hiding, apart from the operation of faith. This can be the faith of the believer who needs to be rid of them, or, of the believer who knows how to command them to leave.
I am deliberately using the plural, because they can co-operate with each other both to hide, and to keep a person bemused. For all those who had demons which left when they were baptised in the Spirit, it is a wonderful day. For those who have work to do to change how they think and act, it is a wonderful day when the last one goes. This latter group is not immune to falling in to sin, just as the first group may also, but the latter have usually been raked over by the enemy more comprehensively, and need to heal more deeply to be convinced God has changed them. As they experience the changes brought about by obedience to the Spirit's leading, they are able to believe for greater changes in their lives. It may be that it's the observers who recognise demonic forces in another person's life. Remember: 'lay hands on no man suddenly'. The believer must want to be free(d).
I would say the flesh was dealt with at the cross, and the power to deal with flesh is in Christ's death and resurrection. Demons tend to justify us in our own reasoning about issues we have trouble analysing or seeing from God's point of view. Getting rid of demons has more to do with the renewing of the mind - entering into agreement with scripture on the applicable minutiae - thus dealing with areas which have been 'no go', to God, which act as barriers - our attempts to protect ourselves from being compromised again. We all do these things. It's a normal survival response. But, it is God who picks the time and place of our release from such strongly held, but nevertheless flawed ideas.
Of course. But we are talking about Christians who have a new heart. Only their minds need to be brought into line with God's thinking.
1) One is not 'possessed'.
2) The defeated foe has to be consciously expelled in the cases where he may have originally been invited to come in. If that invitation was given unconciously, he may still need to be consciously expelled, for the believer to stay free from sin.
3) Only those desiring/experiencing victory over sin can claim to be free from demonic influences.
God IS bringing order to chaos. He is presiding over the chaos, too. Mankind is being tested as to the desires of his heart. Will he seek God who is all around him revealed in creation, or will he seek his own self-will and fleshly gratification?
Jesus Christ opened the prison door, but unless the Christian can believe he is free to go, he will remain in the safety of that prison. Not everyone has Wesley's 'I rose, went forth and followed Thee', ringing in their hearts and minds. The Christian must choose to walk out, but many have no real understanding of the cross, so everything they understand is from a carnal mindset, with selfish and fleshly concerns. God does understand this. He has watched every moment of every life from it's beginning, and He knows the flesh is weak, and will fail. He intends to separate us from our dependence on our own reasoning. If there was one topic which constantly agitated Jesus, it was lack of faith. But, God also knows the moment a person has enough understanding to be held responsible for their responses to what He has spoken into them.
God is patient and kind, and well-able to wait a little longer, to bring a believer through all the conflicts which hold him back from liberty. This attitude on God's part may well ruin our cherished theology, but He is the ultimate Realist, and we learn from Him, if we pay attention.
I hope you are beginning to see the finer points of this discussion. Remember, God is working with you, too. Birth is a crisis but life is a process which subjects us to many pressures and challenges from both inside and out.
I'm probably not going to answer every point you made in your last post to me, but just pick out a few things, as Axehead has given a clear account of the dangers Christians face when they agree with themselves, or a demon, to commit sin.
As I understand Romans 6, unless a person is ready to reckon themselves dead in Christ, they will continue to feed fleshly desires, Gal 5:16, some of which are sinful, and the others of which are purified through being joined to Him in His resurrection, by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of life.
The idea that a Christian can sin without opening himself to the powers of darkness, is a myth. Just because a Christian has a sinful desire, does not mean there is no demon waiting to ride in on its slip stream. Too much of what you say is an either-or option, whereas both can be true.
I really don't agree with what you wrote after 'but'. If a Christian can turn back to the world, can draw back from faith, can resist correction - it doesn't matter which way you slice it, that Christian is choosing disobedience; thus he is lining himself right up with Satan's mind.
There is nothing in the New Testament which can be used to prove that all demons leave when the Holy Spirit comes in, although for the most part I do believe they leave. However, the mentality of the new born-again believer will have a lot to do with whether demons stay away. It seems that sometimes a person who was not brought up in a Christian home, finds it easier to see the differences which the Holy Spirit makes, but not everyone is willing to be led on every point. Even from a Christian home, faulty thinking exists in the unregenerate mind. Simply being born again does not fix that overnight. It takes God time to work with the person's understanding and obedience, to bring them to whole-hearted agreement with His point of view.
Yes and no. We are responsible to repent once we recognise what is sin, and repentance from sin in a general way is a spiritual experience which no Christian should try to escape, but, the cross of Christ is about God taking responsibility for our sin - not that He sinned, but that He died in our place.
So, are you saying that the Christian who is walking in resurrection life with Christ through the Holy Spirit, still has no control over whether he sins?
Referring to Romans 6 again, surely that is the point of being planted in the death of Christ. There we die. There we rise in Him. Does a dead man have a fallen nature? Spiritually speaking he does not. He has only the flesh to contend with - a defeated foe in principle.
Well, there were seven nations in the land, not just canaanites. (Axehead left out the Girgashites, Deuteronomy 7:1) And in the Pentateuch, the use of the word 'nations' becomes a synonym for the (tribes of) demonic spirits associated with differing forms of idolatry. You are, no doubt, aware that the Israelites carried idols out of Egypt with them, and the whole wilderness time for that first generation - the generation that died there through unbelief - was about God showing us how our first birth (flesh) introduces us to and ingrains in us, varying forms of (self-)worship (idolatry), which if it remains unrepented, will kill us. God will not allow idolaters to inherit the land. Idolatry is synonymous with unbelief, too. Idols must be torn down and destroyed - not carried along as a fall-back worship system when we don't like what God is trying to do in our lives - Exodus 32:1, 3, 4.
Jesus has all authority since He did not sin, and since He was victorious over 'the sin' on the cross, destroying the devil and abolishing death. His authority is - like ours - based on His submission to God's will. But, Satan still exists - wounded and defeated - with limited strength. His limitation is demonstrated by the saints' having victory over sin in their own lives, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Before the cross there was no victory over sin; only bloodshed which God graciously accepted as a covering for sin. A soul could not be washed clean by the blood of Christ, and no-one on earth had authority over his own flesh, except Jesus. Now, the Holy Spirit is available to believers to overcome the flesh.
First, you might be assuming that a person receives demons only as a result of choosing to sin. Are you?
There are other ways a demon can come in: through traumatic circumstances, or, active sins of others; through fear; through being too young to resist effectively; through occult practices in which they were sacrificed on the altar of someone else's idolatry; and, through responses to all of the foregoing.
Again let me say that no-one in this discussion is calling the presence of demonic strongholds in a born-again believer's life, 'possession'. If he has received the Holy Spirit (God's response to his faith in Jesus Christ), then God has redeemed him, lock stock and barrel, in the condition that he was found by God, and if not all demons leave at that time, it is not his (the Christian's) worry, as long as he attends to obeying the Lord through the Spirit. The more he pulls through the battles over obedience to God (by obeying God), the more any residual strongholds will be broken and demons will leave. But it is pure conjecture on the part of those who possit that demons cannot inhabit a part of a Christian's life, purely because the Holy Spirit has come in. The Holy Spirit has come in (Jesus has entered the temple of his body) to drive out the enemies with the co-operation of the believer.
We all know that God has His own ways of gaining our co-operation (when it is not immediately forthcoming). It depends how deep the struggle and to some extent, the grip that certain ideas have upon the believer, whether or not demons are fighting to continue in his life. A person who has yielded to certain patterns of thought and behaviour may well have been holding the door open for demons for years without realising it. All I (and certain others) are saying, is, that there can be a process of taking back the land of one's life, rather than one lone initial crisis at new birth. New birth is all about receiving a new heart and a new spirit (the Holy Spirit), having come out of darkness into the light. The next step is to live in the light, so that any darkness which remains, is systematically challenged and dispelled. Demons do not wave a white flag and come out of hiding, apart from the operation of faith. This can be the faith of the believer who needs to be rid of them, or, of the believer who knows how to command them to leave.
I am deliberately using the plural, because they can co-operate with each other both to hide, and to keep a person bemused. For all those who had demons which left when they were baptised in the Spirit, it is a wonderful day. For those who have work to do to change how they think and act, it is a wonderful day when the last one goes. This latter group is not immune to falling in to sin, just as the first group may also, but the latter have usually been raked over by the enemy more comprehensively, and need to heal more deeply to be convinced God has changed them. As they experience the changes brought about by obedience to the Spirit's leading, they are able to believe for greater changes in their lives. It may be that it's the observers who recognise demonic forces in another person's life. Remember: 'lay hands on no man suddenly'. The believer must want to be free(d).
I would say the flesh was dealt with at the cross, and the power to deal with flesh is in Christ's death and resurrection. Demons tend to justify us in our own reasoning about issues we have trouble analysing or seeing from God's point of view. Getting rid of demons has more to do with the renewing of the mind - entering into agreement with scripture on the applicable minutiae - thus dealing with areas which have been 'no go', to God, which act as barriers - our attempts to protect ourselves from being compromised again. We all do these things. It's a normal survival response. But, it is God who picks the time and place of our release from such strongly held, but nevertheless flawed ideas.
Of course. But we are talking about Christians who have a new heart. Only their minds need to be brought into line with God's thinking.
1) One is not 'possessed'.
2) The defeated foe has to be consciously expelled in the cases where he may have originally been invited to come in. If that invitation was given unconciously, he may still need to be consciously expelled, for the believer to stay free from sin.
3) Only those desiring/experiencing victory over sin can claim to be free from demonic influences.
God IS bringing order to chaos. He is presiding over the chaos, too. Mankind is being tested as to the desires of his heart. Will he seek God who is all around him revealed in creation, or will he seek his own self-will and fleshly gratification?
Jesus Christ opened the prison door, but unless the Christian can believe he is free to go, he will remain in the safety of that prison. Not everyone has Wesley's 'I rose, went forth and followed Thee', ringing in their hearts and minds. The Christian must choose to walk out, but many have no real understanding of the cross, so everything they understand is from a carnal mindset, with selfish and fleshly concerns. God does understand this. He has watched every moment of every life from it's beginning, and He knows the flesh is weak, and will fail. He intends to separate us from our dependence on our own reasoning. If there was one topic which constantly agitated Jesus, it was lack of faith. But, God also knows the moment a person has enough understanding to be held responsible for their responses to what He has spoken into them.
God is patient and kind, and well-able to wait a little longer, to bring a believer through all the conflicts which hold him back from liberty. This attitude on God's part may well ruin our cherished theology, but He is the ultimate Realist, and we learn from Him, if we pay attention.
I hope you are beginning to see the finer points of this discussion. Remember, God is working with you, too. Birth is a crisis but life is a process which subjects us to many pressures and challenges from both inside and out.
