Do Demon's Dwell Within Christians?

[dragonfly]

Hi Foreigner,

I'm sorry we find ourselves on opposite sides in this discussion, but I'm convinced that some parts of the body don't 'know' what other parts of the body know and do, and they never see each other in their function, and they don't need to give account to one another. Only to the Head.

Recommended listening is the work of Jim Logan as he explains his ministry and leads believers to true freedom in Christ, and victory over sin.

http://www.biblicalrestorationministries.org/Resources.html

It's really encouraging that so many believers on CyB do believe in victory over sin, but there is a massive contingent in the 'church' who believe themselves to be Christian who have no idea that victory over sin is mandatory to inherit eternal life. Clearly, the gospel they received was another gospel, and not the one between the covers of scripture. An unsurrendered life may well be subject to demonic influences until all parts of the life are brought into subjection to Jesus Christ. That is what the cleansing of the temple is about, after Christ has gained entrance.


Do you believe Paul was writing to non-Christians when he wrote these words to the Corinthians? Anyone?

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

(We know that the idol is nothing, but the spirit that gives it power is the real force to be reckoned with.)

There is a discrepancy between Hebrews 10:14 and the life we experience in God before we have finished pulling down strong holds; before we have suffered in the flesh and ceased from sin. 1 Peter 4:1, 2; Romans 8:11, 12, 13; Colossians 3:5, 6, 7; 1 Thessalonians 4:1, 2, 3, 4.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Foreigner,

I'm sorry we find ourselves on opposite sides in this discussion, but I'm convinced that some parts of the body don't 'know' what other parts of the body know and do, and they never see each other in their function, and they don't need to give account to one another. Only to the Head.

Recommended listening is the work of Jim Logan as he explains his ministry and leads believers to true freedom in Christ, and victory over sin.

http://www.biblicalrestorationministries.org/Resources.html

It's really encouraging that so many believers on CyB do believe in victory over sin, but there is a massive contingent in the 'church' who believe themselves to be Christian who have no idea that victory over sin is mandatory to inherit eternal life. Clearly, the gospel they received was another gospel, and not the one between the covers of scripture. An unsurrendered life may well be subject to demonic influences until all parts of the life are brought into subjection to Jesus Christ. That is what the cleansing of the temple is about, after Christ has gained entrance.


Do you believe Paul was writing to non-Christians when he wrote these words to the Corinthians? Anyone?

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

(We know that the idol is nothing, but the spirit that gives it power is the real force to be reckoned with.)

There is a discrepancy between Hebrews 10:14 and the life we experience in God before we have finished pulling down strong holds; before we have suffered in the flesh and ceased from sin. 1 Peter 4:1, 2; Romans 8:11, 12, 13; Colossians 3:5, 6, 7; 1 Thessalonians 4:1, 2, 3, 4.

Yeah, I'm sorry we are at odds with good brethren, too. But maybe if we all hang in there, we can continue to work through these issues in love and mutual respect. And I think for the most part, people are being respectful and that is pretty difficult (I'm sure) for a subject like this.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear Axe,

We agree about a lot of stuff and you are a better at explaining these
things than I. Keep up the good work.

As to whether a person could have been living a good Christian life before
they manifested a demon during prayer I would say definitely yes. Even if
you clear out 90% or the land their can still be real strong holds of the devil
that resist removal. Many of these things are very deep and are either
generational or caused by trauma of one sort or another. Or, durning your
pre-Christian life you may have gotten Many times Christians that really strive
to live Godly find themselves constantly falling in areas that they can't seem
to overcome by any force of will, prayer, or even fasting. A great many
in the clergy have this type of stubborn demonic problems and they suffer in
sinlence because even if anyone believed them they would certainly shun them if
they found out.

You know, not everything need to be about demons and I know many people go
over board when it comes to this area. What we really need to do is to
just be made aware they they are there, are active, and that their are God give
ways to deal with them and that their are people with the gift of deliverence
that can help with really intrenched cases.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[dragonfly]

Even if you clear out 90% or the land their can still be real strong holds of the devil that resist removal.

There is a verse that describes this perfectly, in the account of Israel's taking the land. One cannot but note the various types of terrain in which the enemies had lived and thrived, until the Lord God of Israel fought for Israel. I see this as a picture of the 'land' in our lives which may harbour 'enemies'. They are all a picture of places which present special challenges in the theatre of war -

Joshua 12:8 In the mountains, and in the valleys, and in the plains, and in the springs, and in the wilderness, and in the south country; the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites:

 

[Axehead]

Dear Axe,

We agree about a lot of stuff and you are a better at explaining these
things than I. Keep up the good work.

As to whether a person could have been living a good Christian life before
they manifested a demon during prayer I would say definitely yes. Even if
you clear out 90% or the land their can still be real strong holds of the devil
that resist removal. Many of these things are very deep and are either
generational or caused by trauma of one sort or another. Or, durning your
pre-Christian life you may have gotten Many times Christians that really strive
to live Godly find themselves constantly falling in areas that they can't seem
to overcome by any force of will, prayer, or even fasting. A great many
in the clergy have this type of stubborn demonic problems and they suffer in
sinlence because even if anyone believed them they would certainly shun them if
they found out.

You know, not everything need to be about demons and I know many people go
over board when it comes to this area. What we really need to do is to
just be made aware they they are there, are active, and that their are God give
ways to deal with them and that their are people with the gift of deliverence
that can help with really intrenched cases.

Blessings,

Justin

I wouldn't say I am better at explaining this, we all bring a piece of the puzzle to make the whole.

 

[Rex]

I'm glad to see Foreigner and Michael J sharing my opinion as well on this topic.

The two most frequented examples used to prop up this notion is the land and the temple.
The land in the OT, as well as Israels favor with God was dependent on obedience to the law, IMO that is a poor example to use in light of our now being indwelled with the HS by grace.

The NT temple could just as easily be seen as those who reject Jesus, the host if you will of "the temple" rejected Jesus, it to is a rather week argument when we now consider that we are the temple of God.

The third point is I don't remember God or Jesus saying we would ever be free from attacks by the enemy, I believe that the testing of somes faith maybe identified as demon possession, aparent inconconrable trials or self perceived hardships that can only be seen in the negative. I'm glad not everyone in the bible viewed hardship as something that can only be explained by possession, by endurance and perseverance the goal and victory is seen and obtained. IMO by the standard that is used today most of the prophets of old would have been advised to seek out a church to have the demon of pride or negativity cast out of them.

I heard something mentioned on a radio ministry yesterday, it was about eagles did you know that eagles unlike other birds look forward and become excited at an approaching storm? The wind and drafts carry them higher and faster the same word in Hebrew that is used as spirit. I would encourage you all to be like eagles in the storms of life, knowing that those that have been taught simply spread their wings and sore even higher.


I found this last night as I was thinking about eagles, I would encourage you to read how the mother eagle makes the nest uncomfortable when it becomes time to fly.

http://www.eagleflight.org/cyberstudies/actions-and-attitudes-of-a-growing-church/157-with-eagles-wings

 

[Axehead]

I'm glad to see Foreigner and Michael J sharing my opinion as well on this topic.

The two most frequented examples used to prop up this notion is the land and the temple.
The land in the OT, as well as Israels favor with God was dependent on obedience to the law, IMO that is a poor example to use in light of our now being indwelled with the HS by grace.

But, it is not about theorizing based on our understanding of Scripture or lack thereof. It is about mapping real life experiences to the scriptures which actually brings clarity and meaning where there was none before.

Some people invalidate other's experiences based on their understanding of God's word. But, that does not make them invalid, right? No one has all the truth. We are all learning.

 

[Rex]

But, it is not about theorizing based on our understanding of Scripture or lack thereof. It is about mapping real life experiences to the scriptures which actually brings clarity and meaning where there was none before.

Some people invalidate other's experiences based on their understanding of God's word. But, that does not make them invalid, right? No one has all the truth. We are all learning.

It is about comparing apples to oranges, it is about your comparing life under the law with life in the Spirit which was the reality under the shadow of the law.

I never presumed to have all the truth, but grabbing for straws in scripture where none exist is not the answer.
In that I mean there is not a single reference or implication that those born of the Spirit can be indelled with demons "possessed"
In fact it says we are a new creature -> not a stick in the sea tossed about by every whim and doctrine.

I'm not being indifferent with your "OPINION" as I suppose you are not with me, but its a choice we all make threw the leading and new birth we have have received in Christ threw the Spirit.

I believe we were meant to be in the world but not a part of it. So some may just have a more difficult time, or different understanding making that distinction.
In the end I hope we all find wings in the storm approaching in everyone of our lives, instead of blaming every hardship encountered on evil spirits.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rex,

I will study your eagle information in the next few days. For now, I feel I must say - and it's no shame to you at all - that you don't seem to have much knowledge about how other spirits work both with and against the believer, depending on a load of different factors. Demons do not only throw some people around, but can also soothe others in their carnality, helping them justify to themselves why they should live a certain way which is not ostensibly non-Christian. But nevertheless they are, in reality, not fulfilling God's calling on their life. They are not doing the will of the Father. They are fast asleep, spiritually.

Hardship, and bearing hardship, as you say, is about endurance, and there are bound to be demons who can't stand that pace, but there are demons who like hardship, who will convince the person that the harshness they endure is spiritually beneficial, while in actual fact, the person is failing to bring their innermost fears and past traumas to the Lord for healing, and the harshness with which they treat themselves is because they have taken over where a previous assailant left off.

There are endless subtle manifestations of demonic intransigence, which do not become clear until the Lord - by some means - brings it to the person's attention and they begin to look more closely at a certain area of their life, in His light and confident of His love. The Lord knows how to strengthen a person to become an overcomer in these matters.

In general, I agree with you that the presence of the Holy Spirit in a believer sets them free from the power of every other spirit which may be in or near them, but unless they lay hold of that, while they are spiritual babies, they are vulnerable. There is a great variety of what happens between that time and the renewing of their mind which takes place as they actually stop doing what they used to do, and make straight paths for their feet in pursuit of Christ.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Rex,

I will study your eagle information in the next few days. For now, I feel I must say - and it's no shame to you at all - that you don't seem to have much knowledge about how other spirits work both with and against the believer, depending on a load of different factors. Demons do not only throw some people around, but can also soothe others in their carnality, helping them justify to themselves why they should live a certain way which is not ostensibly non-Christian. But nevertheless they are, in reality, not fulfilling God's calling on their life. They are not doing the will of the Father. They are fast asleep, spiritually.

Hardship, and bearing hardship, as you say, is about endurance, and there are bound to be demons who can't stand that pace, but there are demons who like hardship, who will convince the person that the harshness they endure is spiritually beneficial, while in actual fact, the person is failing to bring their innermost fears and past traumas to the Lord for healing, and the harshness with which they treat themselves is because they have taken over where a previous assailant left off.

There are endless subtle manifestations of demonic intransigence, which do not become clear until the Lord - by some means - brings it to the person's attention and they begin to look more closely at a certain area of their life, in His light and confident of His love. The Lord knows how to strengthen a person to become an overcomer in these matters.

In general, I agree with you that the presence of the Holy Spirit in a believer sets them free from the power of every other spirit which may be in or near them, but unless they lay hold of that, while they are spiritual babies, they are vulnerable. There is a great variety of what happens between that time and the renewing of their mind which takes place as they actually stop doing what they used to do, and make straight paths for their feet in pursuit of Christ.

Amen to all of that, dragonfly.

 

[Rex]

Hi Rex,

I will study your eagle information in the next few days. For now, I feel I must say - and it's no shame to you at all - that you don't seem to have much knowledge about how other spirits work both with and against the believer, depending on a load of different factors. Demons do not only throw some people around, but can also soothe others in their carnality, helping them justify to themselves why they should live a certain way which is not ostensibly non-Christian. But nevertheless they are, in reality, not fulfilling God's calling on their life. They are not doing the will of the Father. They are fast asleep, spiritually.

Hardship, and bearing hardship, as you say, is about endurance, and there are bound to be demons who can't stand that pace, but there are demons who like hardship, who will convince the person that the harshness they endure is spiritually beneficial, while in actual fact, the person is failing to bring their innermost fears and past traumas to the Lord for healing, and the harshness with which they treat themselves is because they have taken over where a previous assailant left off.

There are endless subtle manifestations of demonic intransigence, which do not become clear until the Lord - by some means - brings it to the person's attention and they begin to look more closely at a certain area of their life, in His light and confident of His love. The Lord knows how to strengthen a person to become an overcomer in these matters.

In general, I agree with you that the presence of the Holy Spirit in a believer sets them free from the power of every other spirit which may be in or near them, but unless they lay hold of that, while they are spiritual babies, they are vulnerable. There is a great variety of what happens between that time and the renewing of their mind which takes place as they actually stop doing what they used to do, and make straight paths for their feet in pursuit of Christ.

. Your opening statement "about how other spirits work both with and against the believer," is not explicit to the topic I would never say that we are free from influence just not possessed or in dwell with. Was Jesus experiencing demon possession when he was tempted in the wilderness, after receiving the HS?
Perhaps by your broad definition underlined above he was. And you go on to include living a certain way in the topic as well, I presume to counter my statement that Jesus never said, following him would be easy by the standards of the world but we would have peace and joy, something I see few christians expressing regardless of circumstances but are quick to say they have joy peace in fair weather and blue skys. It really boils down to walking the walk, some do and some don't, those that don't never experience what is taught James 1:2 Philippians 4:12 or Matthew 4:4

In all fairness I have studied the theory of demon's dwelling in christians and find it sorely lacking in any kind of evidence other than
observation. What you are attempting to do is place indwelling Spiritual degrees to a single event "born again or born of the spirit" I don't find that in the biblical description as well.

In general, I agree with you that the presence of the Holy Spirit in a
believer sets them free from the power of every other spirit which may
be in or near them, but unless they lay hold of that, while they are
spiritual babies, they are vulnerable. There is a great variety of what
happens between that time and the renewing of their mind which takes
place as they actually stop doing what they used to do, and make
straight paths for their feet in pursuit of Christ.

In all your above quote is evidence that a new life has not been gained. There are many reasons IMO for such thinking today, some will say you must be baptized to receive the spirit another says speaking in tongues, both can lead to a false sense of salvation the same is true by simply praying a believers prayer. God judges the mind and hearts of those he places his Spirit upon it is not to the discretion or apparent manifestation to be witnesses that counts, it's what takes place within that matters. Men have been trying to express this change or new birth and give it reason and understanding since Acts chapter 2 but the Spirit is like the wind no man knows where it comes from or where it goes, John 3:8 but we can feel the wind in our hair and across our skin but we can never be for certain from where it came or where it goes.

I have a great apprehension for the teachings and fruit of the "pentecostal movement" for lack of a better term, It has spawned the wealth and prosperity movement, the snake oil sales men on TV that tell you, you can plant a seed for wealth are a dime a dozen and trace their roots back to pentecostal churches, as well as demonology in Christians and miracles that are claimed far and wide but lack personal testimony and evidence. Not to mention the varying degrees of being born again that must be true to explain what they believe.



I find it troubling as well that you look for ways to pollute the living waters,

and it's no shame to you at all - that you don't seem to have much knowledge

I do believe that both Michael V and Foreigner would agree the problem is, they "these demon indwelt Christians" have never tasted the water.
Maybe you can ponder these verses as well while you scrutinize the eagles life I posted.

John 4:13
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but
whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst.
But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of
water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7:37-39
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing[g] in Him would receive; for the Holy[h] Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


Isaiah 12:3 With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.
Isaiah 55:1
"Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no
money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and
without cost.
Ezekiel 47:9
Swarms of living creatures will live wherever the river flows. There
will be large numbers of fish, because this water flows there and makes
the salt water fresh; so where the river flows everything will live.

 

[Axehead]

We know that evil spirits look for a body and that is why they wanted to be cast into the pigs rather than outer darkness. The Lord possesses our spirit and therefore demons cannot. We have been joined to Him in our spirit.

When the Children of Israel fell into lust or covetousness or idolatry the enemy invaded their land and took up residence. God would chastise them by allowing the enemy to invade and oppress them and the same thing happens today when Christians stray from the Lord. Anyone given over to lust, idolatry and covetousness is allowing God's hedge of protection to come down in their life and when that protection is removed just a little bit, the enemy takes advantage of it. But there is no fear of sin today as OSAS is preached. This is why there is an onslaught upon the Church, today. Wrong teaching! That one can sin and there will be no repercussions. Sometimes the Children of Israel would not experience immediate judgment (chastisement) upon their sin and they just became bolder in their rebellion. Eventually, God would bring them to a place where they would turn to Him and ask Him to deliver them from their enemies. By that time, some terrible results had already occurred in their families because of the enemies that THEY LET IN by their own volition. Sometime they just grew passive and strayed across their borders. God has given us "borders", too.

I don't expect everyone to see the correlation today, or how the OT is a handbook on spiritual warfare. This is largely due to different teachings of false security in my opinion.

 

[marksman]

Our doctrine says there can be no such thing as a Christian indwelt by a demon. One day a Christian shows up and during prayer starts to manifest a demon. People pray and cast it out in the name of Jesus. We say, well…obviously this person must not have been a Christian or perhaps the demon was just 5 inched outside of them but not actually in them. Instead of re-examining our position we do all kinds of absurd mental gymnastics to explain away the obvious. This kind of fuzzy thinking defines our walk with God rather than a life examined through experience with Him. It distorts everything we believe until we are mere mockeries of Christianity rather than ambassadors of it.

Hope you don't mind me closing up your text Justin to save space.

I guess a subject like this is a case of when all is said and done, more is said than done.

Jesus said he came to set the captives free. Can I suggest that whether a person is oppressed or possessed by a demon is totally irrelevant. What it important is that the person is set free.

There is an old saying that God so loved the world he didn't send a committee. When it comes to setting the captive free, we don't want a committee. We want men and women who are filled with the spirit, who know God (not know about him) and who have faith in his word.

That is a trinity that satan is powerless against. That man will achieve the objective whilst everyone else is in committee deciding what the doctrine is. When they have, the job has already been done and they have moved on to the next captive.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear M,

Well said. I can agree with that.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rex,

I owe you some further comment on your post at the top of the page, I think.

Quote
Your opening statement about how other spirits work both with and against the believer is not explicit to the topic

Thank you for your patience with this topic. Let me say more about how I understand the dynamics at play.

There are many varieties of 'new Christian'. Some have had a biblically 'Christian' up-bringing, and some have no idea what is in the Bible, although they might think their family is 'Christian', as opposed to 'Hindu', or some other religion. Then there are those who would not claim any kind of Christian influence prior to their conversion. All of these, (like us) need to learn the same things, but it is God who directs the order in which they deal with issues, and orchestrates how they come to a better understanding of His mind and His ways. Meanwhile, the Bible has already laid out (in principle) all the issues a person will encounter in their walk with the Lord. But mostly, none of us realise that at the start. It's only as we continue to find the answers in scripture that we become able to testify to its truth in our experience of being spoken to by the Lord, or having our understanding illumined by the Holy Spirit, or of laying hold of the Lord through prayer, and then experiencing His answers in our practical situations. Often, we don't approach those moments with a clear idea of how things are going to work out. We are trying to believe that God will come through for us, but at the beginning we don't have experience with which to encourage our own hearts when God seems distant.

So.... with regard to the topic of this thread, I am saying that some of what some new Christians have to deal with, is spiritual. They picked it/them up before they had committed themselves to the Lord. He came in to their life, and if they genuinely remain surrendered to Him and don't go back, He will take over every part of their being - all their thinking and all their living. But that take-over phase is not time-limited. Very many factors affect the way the Lord deals with a person, their responses, and the testimony they will give in time to come, because of the thoroughness of the Lord's work.

My comment about other spirits working 'with' the believer I elaborated in terms of giving the believer what he or she wants. This is about the believer making choices which have not been endorsed by the Lord. The believer may not even ask the Lord what His will is for them in a certain situation. They just go right ahead with natural or carnal reasoning and go get what they want. They are not submitted to the Lord. They are not mortifying any flesh or sin through the Holy Spirit, and they have never heard that Romans 6:5 is supposed to apply in the present tense. But, the Lord knows it does, and He told His disciples to take up their cross daily and follow Him. It doesn't really matter which way the cross is approached in its application to the individual believer's life, but unless it is being applied, there will be no liberty from the flesh, self, habitual sins and unresolved issues from the past, and, there will be no deliverance from demons which have their ground of residence or unofficial permission to continue controlling in these areas of the person's life.

It is, clearly, not just possible but (depending on local cultural practices) probable that some Christians will continue to engage in sins listed by Paul in Galatians 5, otherwise, why would Paul even mention them. It is naive (sorry) to think that a person can engage in, for instance, witchcraft, without invoking the presence of evil and unclean spirits. There are spiritual components to every sexual sin, and all the indulgences of the flesh open the person to entry by other spirits. This is just a spiritual fact. I am not trying to over-egg the pudding. This is why Paul is exhorting against these practices. He states again and again that those who continue practising sin will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I would never say that we are free from influence just not possessed or in dwell with.

Well, I would say we can be free from 'influence' of demons, even when we are oppressed by them. The oppression may cause us to deal with it in appropriate ways, but internally, we are unscathed by the experience. If anything we are built up in the knowledge of God and experience the effect of His victory in our lives in very real ways.

To say we are not possessed with, I agree. A person who has received the Holy Spirit has been accepted by the Lord in a particular way, and there are certain expectation upon him/her, but the performance of those expectations - which may well depend on mortification of the flesh, putting away the old man, being enabled by a fresh out-pouring of God's grace to live in a completely different way than before with new attitudes and actions to demonstrate real internal changes - are not guaranteed to occur spontaneously. The Christian has to 'row towards the Lord', or there will be an inevitable drift away from Him. The Christian has to practise obedience to the word of God and the Lord's word to them personally (however they receive it), or the strongholds in their lives will never be brought down, and then their hangs a question over just who do they serve - the Lord or their own interests.

It took a long time for me to grasp that the gospel can be preached in such a way as to imply that believing in God means that now He is on the side of the believer to give them whatever they already hoped for themselves. The cross is seen as something Jesus did for them, not as something they also have to experience in order to experience His life. I still find it hard to grasp that a man could die for the world, and preachers could pitch their gospel in such a way that the comer-to-the-cross genuinely has no idea they are supposed to lay down their life in humble adoration for the gift of eternal life.

Was Jesus experiencing demon possession when he was tempted in the wilderness, after receiving the HS? Perhaps by your broad definition underlined above he was.

Of course not! No-one has suggested that He was. (??) Temptation is the pre-cursor to choosing to sin. But once the sin is being committed, the spiritual door is open for a demon to enter. For some people, the decision to begin to commit a sin is the door, because they were already delivered from a demon associated with that particular sin.

But If the temptation is resisted, no sin has been committed. While it is good to resist temptation, it doesn't mean there are no spiritual issues in a person's life, just because they've received the Holy Spirit. They have to keep pressing forward in the Lord and allowing Him access to every part of their life. If they keep one thing back from Him, they are in danger. That said - and this is important - a person can honestly have yielded themselves to the Lord many times and still He has no dealt with something which He knows would be too difficult for them to face...... yet. This has happened to me quite a few times. Basically, we don't know what we are saying when we give Him access to our lives. He sees everything, but we only see what He shows us. We have to take those revelations very seriously and let the word of God work in our lives.

And you go on to include living a certain way in the topic as well, I presume to counter my statement that Jesus never said, following him would be easy by the standards of the world but we would have peace and joy, something I see few christians expressing regardless of circumstances but are quick to say they have joy peace in fair weather and blue skys. It really boils down to walking the walk, some do and some don't, those that don't never experience what is taught James 1:2 Philippians 4:12 or Matthew 4:4

This is not about whether following Jesus is easy. This is just about following Jesus, whatever the cost.

There is a presumption in scripture, where preaching begins with the word 'Repent!' and people are supposed to understand a few basic things: that we are separated from God by sin, and unless something happens to that sin to make it go away, we will be separated from God for eternity. That seems pretty simple logic.

Time and time again in scripture we see people deciding there is something wrong with God's requirements. They find onerous because it means they cannot live the way they want to, and so they stop obeying God. Nothing has changed! You may well not have seen Christians rejoicing when they undergo what they perceive as 'hardship', but to me that is a normal part of growing - to learn to rejoice and be thankful no matter what the situation. And you are correct that not rejoicing when under pressure, can pander to self-pity, depression, bitterness and meanness - all attitudes which can invite a spiritual component. If only believers would believe God's word is true and safe to obey!

In all fairness I have studied the theory of demon's dwelling in christians and find it sorely lacking in any kind of evidence other than
observation. What you are attempting to do is place indwelling Spiritual degrees to a single event "born again or born of the spirit" I don't find that in the biblical description as well.

Dear brother, can I be perfectly candid? What is being talked about here is the experience of many, many Christians. It is not merely 'observation'. Only if you knew someone very well whose life demonstrated several radical changes of attitude, apparently for no particular reason, could you suspect that they had been systematically delivered from demons as they pressed in after God, pulling down strongholds and revenging their (previous) disobedience.

With Christians (like you and others) more happy to cling to a theory you cannot prove, despite the glaring pictures of what I'm describing both in Christ's behaviour in the Temple, and the order of events which Josiah was led to pursue (2 Kings 23) there is something between little and no likelihood that Christians who have been rumbled and delivered by the power of God will rush forward to testify to you of how they were delivered from demons after they came to Christ.

You have shown yourself completely unwilling to accept the testimony of two brethren who now both move in a deliverance ministry, at God's behest. Why not believe them? Do you suspect them of not telling the truth about something? Why would they lie? I feel you might be closer to acknowledging these testimonies by those who have been brave enough to give them. Who has argued with your testimony of things you have proved in your own life? Anyone?

The only reason I keep pounding away with this topic is that the reality of the doctrine - that once the Holy Spirit enters no demon can remain - is not founded on scripture. The scripture plainly shows that demons need flesh. That's why mortification is so important. The Holy Spirit is different. He dwells with the person's spirit only. Nevertheless, as we might expect, if we mortify the flesh which used to practise sinning, through the Holy Spirit the Lord will quicken our mortal bodies. He is the Resurrection and the Life. He as before He died, and He most certainly is, now. Romans 8:11 Yes, that verse can be taken to refer only to the resurrection of the body, but to limit that verse to that would require a different context within the chapter where the statement appears.

In another place, what does 2 Corinthians 7:1 mean? Can we have 'filthiness of the spirit' separate from an unclean spirit? What's more, Paul puts the onus for dealing with it squarely on the individual believer. Likewise, 'filthiness of the flesh' is unlikely to be a spirit-free condition. Although one cannot crucify a demon, if the flesh which feeds it is crucified, the demon will move off. I firmly believe (as Paul seems to) that a person can deliver themselves of spirits. This may be by denying self, mortifying flesh, or actively seeking deliverance. As well, a spirit can be bound by a single declaration. That is, a declaration by either the person with the spirit, or another believer.

1) it's what takes place within that matters..... 2) Not to mention the varying degrees of being born again that must be true to explain what they believe..... 3) I find it troubling as well that you look for ways to pollute the living waters,

1) Of course it is! We are talking about deeply intimate dealings by the Lord in a person's life. Sometimes a demon is resting in aputrid wound that has been there for years. The person needs to start looking to the Lord for healing, and seek to give Him access to the abscess so that He can take the ground from under the demon's feet. Holding on to pain after the Lord has come into a person's life can become a sin to them - a reason for not trusting Him, a source of self-pity, a cause of fear and self-protective manoeuvres. It can take time for the person to even feel pain which has been there for years. Only as they respond to the ministrations of the Lord over a period of time may they become aware they have something to bring to Him for healing. There are many other simpler examples. I'm just trying to show you that the time factor doesn't bother the Lord. His testimony is that He can deliver. Period. Winning a hurt person's trust may take time. In fact, many people do receive amazing deliverances when they are converted, but those who don't are not second class Christians. As I've said before, some people will never be delivered if the Holy Spirit does not come into their life.

2) This is not about varying degrees of being born again. This is about varying degrees of restoration. The Lord is the Redeemer. He buys us back in the state we are in. That is redemption. Then He gets to work. That is restoration.

3) I am not trying to pollute the waters. The waters come bubbling up in the person's life and begin to carry all before them. The depth to which the waters have to reach to heal them is what is under discussion. The waters are pure.

Personality is declared most fully. The sinner must come to Jesus, not to works, ordinances, or doctrines, but to a personal Redeemer, who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree. The bleeding, dying, rising Saviour, is the only star of hope to a sinner. Oh for grace to come now and drink, ere the sun sets upon the year's last day!

No waiting or preparation is so much as hinted at. Drinking represents a reception for which no fitness is required. A fool, a thief, a harlot can drink; and so sinfulness of character is no bar to the invitation to believe in Jesus. We want no golden cup, no bejewelled chalice, in which to convey the water to the thirsty; the mouth of poverty is welcome to stoop down and quaff the flowing flood. Blistered, leprous, filthy lips may touch the stream of divine love; they cannot pollute it, but shall themselves be purified. Jesus is the fount of hope. Dear reader, hear the dear Redeemer's loving voice as He cries to each of us,


"IF ANY MAN THIRST,
LET HIM
COME UNTO ME
AND DRINK."


Extract from: C H Spurgeon, Morning and Evening, 31st December.


I have not yet looked at the eagles, but I do still intend to. I am encouraged by the little you shared about them.


I have now read the link on eagles, and greatly enjoyed it. Thank you.

 

[Rex]

I don't believe Christians, by definition -> "having received the HS" can be inhabited with demons.
All of your arguments for the case and not a single clear teaching or instance from scripture, "FYI Peter and Judas had not received the HS" we are told to resist the devil and temptation, but there is no indication we are possessed or that the unclean spirit resides with-in us.

And to address your latest teaching that Christians can be sinless, again you'll be hard pressed to find anyone in the bible except Jesus to be sinless, or has acquired a perfect state of cleanliness before God.

I found the eagle reading to of interest as well.

 

[dragonfly]

Hey Rex,

When did I use the word 'sinless'?

But you do, agree, don't you, that when Jesus first went into the Temple, He entered while it was full of money-changers and their tables, and animals and birds?


And that in 2 Kings 23, there is no doubt that Josiah renewed the covenant with the Lord on behalf of the whole nation, before, were brought 'forth out of the temple of the Lord all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven ???


It is, therefore, possible for a believer to prevent the Lord from finishing the cleansing work He desires to complete, and this is most easily achieved by not turning from idols, not acknowledging the truth, not mortifying the flesh (with the Spirit's help), or by actively choosing to sin.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

The distinction you are missing [or perhaps I should say, a lot of people just don't distinguish] is between being "possessed" and just being "influenced". Possession implies ownership, and the Christian is owned by God, bought by the blood of Christ (1 Cor 6:20). So there is no demon possession for the Christian. The unclean spirits can dwell in and influence the Christian though.

The distinction you are missing [or perhaps I should say, a lot of people just don't distinguish] is between being "possessed" and just being "influenced". Possession implies ownership, and the Christian is owned by God, bought by the blood of Christ (1 Cor 6:20). So there is no demon possession for the Christian. The unclean spirits can dwell in and influence the Christian though.

You're almost spot on. All that remains is the beginning of the last line to be deleted or tidied up. i.e. The unclean spirit(s)can dwell in ... .

 

[Axehead]

The distinction you are missing [or perhaps I should say, a lot of people just don't distinguish] is between being "possessed" and just being "influenced". Possession implies ownership, and the Christian is owned by God, bought by the blood of Christ (1 Cor 6:20). So there is no demon possession for the Christian. The unclean spirits can dwell in and influence the Christian though.

Worshiper, I really like that. It is more akin to "bible talk". The "enemies can dwell in the land" and there are many, many references to that in the Bible. Possession is not a good word to use because it connotates complete takeover in which case the Holy Spirit is not present.

Very good distinction!

 

[SilenceInMotion]

I believe that a demon can intrude on entire households, causing problems where there would otherwise be unlikely to be one. I also believe demons dwell outside of churches, unable to go in and waiting to enter people who come out.

My reasoning for demons awaiting outside of churches is based on an observation I've witnesssed many times. There are those who come out of church strong in spirit, renewed for another week until they return again, and then there are those who come out initially high spirited but don't even make it home before they start to act unnaturally aggrivated.
At first I assumed that maybe such people find church a chore, and perhaps that is true for a lot of them, but I couldn't help but notice something just *wrong* about some that I have seen. It's like the joy they had just get's sucked right out of them, and for no intelligible reason.