Yep, no demons in churches. The Stain Glass windows keep them out.SilenceInMotion said:
What about the clergy that live and work inside the Church?SilenceInMotion said:
Do Demon's Dwell Within Christians?
- Thread starter Justin Mangonel
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Hi SIM,
I think what you're observing when they're inside a church, is 'religion', not 'life', and not 'the life of God in Christ Jesus', so when people come out they are back to normal because nothing has happened to their heart in church. Perhaps, even, they are complying with a religious 'spirit'.
I think what you're observing when they're inside a church, is 'religion', not 'life', and not 'the life of God in Christ Jesus', so when people come out they are back to normal because nothing has happened to their heart in church. Perhaps, even, they are complying with a religious 'spirit'.
Dear All,
I think a lot of humility is needed when we approach the subject of fallen
spirits as well as angels. These are immensely old beings and we should
tread lightly when we deal with them. It is only the power of God the
keeps demonic spirits semi at bay and it is only "in Him" that we can
rebuke them and take authority. Thank God that we are able to use the
name of our Lord Jesus to do battle with them.
One of the main points that I would like to make is that recognizing that
demons do exist and do take up residence within believers gives us a clear perspective
of the situation we are dealing with so we can seek deliverance. Sin, in
all its various forms, has its root and is energized from the demonic
realm. Sickness is merely a manifestation of demonic activity. Overt
hatred, lust, anger, covetousness, fornication, adultery, gluttony etc. are
simply manifestations energized from the demonic realm. The lie that the
Devil would like us to believe is that somehow when we become filled with the
Holy Spirit that we are home free and delivered forever. Much of the
condemnation Christians experience is because they cannot overcome areas of sin
themselves because they have become strongholds of demonic spirits in their
lives. When Christians believe the lie that they are solely responsible
for falling into sin over and over again, despite their best efforts, then they
are prone to hopelessness and despair and sometimes even drift away from
God. Once they realize that it is the enemy that is pushing them to act
out in unseemly ways then they can fight against sometime other than
themselves.
Let us stop making the mistake of thinking that our brothers and sisters really
want to act out in these terrible ways and start blaming the real instigators…Satan and his demons.
Blessings,
Justin
P.S. I know we have free will and
that in an ideal world we would just say no.
However, many people are so weakened and used to demonic input and
influence they have little resistance to it any longer. They are like a person caught in a rip tide and
even though they try to fight it they can’t.
It is up to us to give them a helping hand, in the name of Jesus, so
that they will not be carried completely away.
I think a lot of humility is needed when we approach the subject of fallen
spirits as well as angels. These are immensely old beings and we should
tread lightly when we deal with them. It is only the power of God the
keeps demonic spirits semi at bay and it is only "in Him" that we can
rebuke them and take authority. Thank God that we are able to use the
name of our Lord Jesus to do battle with them.
One of the main points that I would like to make is that recognizing that
demons do exist and do take up residence within believers gives us a clear perspective
of the situation we are dealing with so we can seek deliverance. Sin, in
all its various forms, has its root and is energized from the demonic
realm. Sickness is merely a manifestation of demonic activity. Overt
hatred, lust, anger, covetousness, fornication, adultery, gluttony etc. are
simply manifestations energized from the demonic realm. The lie that the
Devil would like us to believe is that somehow when we become filled with the
Holy Spirit that we are home free and delivered forever. Much of the
condemnation Christians experience is because they cannot overcome areas of sin
themselves because they have become strongholds of demonic spirits in their
lives. When Christians believe the lie that they are solely responsible
for falling into sin over and over again, despite their best efforts, then they
are prone to hopelessness and despair and sometimes even drift away from
God. Once they realize that it is the enemy that is pushing them to act
out in unseemly ways then they can fight against sometime other than
themselves.
Let us stop making the mistake of thinking that our brothers and sisters really
want to act out in these terrible ways and start blaming the real instigators…Satan and his demons.
Blessings,
Justin
P.S. I know we have free will and
that in an ideal world we would just say no.
However, many people are so weakened and used to demonic input and
influence they have little resistance to it any longer. They are like a person caught in a rip tide and
even though they try to fight it they can’t.
It is up to us to give them a helping hand, in the name of Jesus, so
that they will not be carried completely away.
Demon cannot live in true followers, but half hearted ones are inviting demon to be live in them.
We have to be true and faithful to Jesus to make sure that we are not cooperating with satan's schemes.
We have to be true and faithful to Jesus to make sure that we are not cooperating with satan's schemes.
Amen, like I always say, a Christian can have any thing he asks for. If he sows to the flesh, he opens himself up to unclean spirits if he sows to the Spirit....well, you get the idea.meshak said:
You are what you eat. Eat the bread of Life (Jesus) or the poison fruit of Satan. You become like your father.
Dear All,
I think it basically comes down to pride when people do not accept that they can have demons. When you strip all the rhetoric away it seems that people think they are above having a demons influence them from inside their body. Strange thing is that they are quick to believe that the Holy Spirit resides in their body. If one Spirit resides inside your body because you yeild to Him then why is it impossible for another type of spirit to reside in your body because you yeild to that one? Furthermore, why do people think they are so holy as to not have demons given they ways that they act out? I would think they would be happy to be able to blame at least part of that type of ungodly behavior on something or someone else.
What do you say about these scriptures? Is this not a example of how demons dwell within and influence us?
"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for
to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find
not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?I
thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself
serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 7:15-25
Blessings,
Justin
I think it basically comes down to pride when people do not accept that they can have demons. When you strip all the rhetoric away it seems that people think they are above having a demons influence them from inside their body. Strange thing is that they are quick to believe that the Holy Spirit resides in their body. If one Spirit resides inside your body because you yeild to Him then why is it impossible for another type of spirit to reside in your body because you yeild to that one? Furthermore, why do people think they are so holy as to not have demons given they ways that they act out? I would think they would be happy to be able to blame at least part of that type of ungodly behavior on something or someone else.
What do you say about these scriptures? Is this not a example of how demons dwell within and influence us?
"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for
to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find
not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?I
thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself
serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 7:15-25
Blessings,
Justin
Hi Justin,
Those verses are quite specifically referring to the time that the man writing - Paul - was under the law, before he knew the Lord Jesus Christ.
Quoting those verses doesn't help your case, as he was describing a time before he had received the Holy Spirit. However, there is a verse where Paul refers to the Corinthians being able to receive 'another spirit'. 2 Corinthians 11:4 Later in the chapter he says:
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
He then goes on to mention that some of them have not yet repented of serious sins:
20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: 21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Those verses are quite specifically referring to the time that the man writing - Paul - was under the law, before he knew the Lord Jesus Christ.
Quoting those verses doesn't help your case, as he was describing a time before he had received the Holy Spirit. However, there is a verse where Paul refers to the Corinthians being able to receive 'another spirit'. 2 Corinthians 11:4 Later in the chapter he says:
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
He then goes on to mention that some of them have not yet repented of serious sins:
20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: 21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Dear D,
This is what I am talking about when I say that experience comes first and
interpretation comes second. Having been involved in demonic deliverance
when I read these verses I can recognize that besides his teaching about the
flesh and the spirit he is describing the indwelling of a demon or demons.
Right now we are in bondage to interpretation that takes precedence over
experience. When you make experience subservient to interpretation you
put what the Holy Spirit is doing at the mercy of our carnal minds. This
is simply the wrong way to go about things. Jesus came unto His own and
His own received him not...why? It was because those who ruled Gods
people demanded that the Messiah come in a way that lined up with their
interpretation of scriptures and would not allow the experience of Jesus to change
their beliefs.
All truth is given by revelation from God and this is why the intellectuals
among us sometimes get it so wrong. Unless they allow themselves to receive
the truth from God first and only afterwards understand it in scriptures they
are prone to error.
The Father of our faith is Abraham and he lived by revelation...i.e. by
talking with and hearing God. There were no scriptures or cannon or
textus receptus. His sola scripture was literally whatever proceeded from
the mouth of God. The Ten Commandments, if you remember, were only
written down because God's people refused to hear His voice from mount
Horeb. The Bible, if you dare receive it, is a step down from the way that God really
wants to deal with His people.
Scriptures handled by people who yield to revelation are a wonderful thing
and highly profitable. However, scriptures handled by those who are
convinced that they can figure things out intellectually are tantamount to partaking
of the forbidden fruit.
Blessings,
Justin
This is what I am talking about when I say that experience comes first and
interpretation comes second. Having been involved in demonic deliverance
when I read these verses I can recognize that besides his teaching about the
flesh and the spirit he is describing the indwelling of a demon or demons.
Right now we are in bondage to interpretation that takes precedence over
experience. When you make experience subservient to interpretation you
put what the Holy Spirit is doing at the mercy of our carnal minds. This
is simply the wrong way to go about things. Jesus came unto His own and
His own received him not...why? It was because those who ruled Gods
people demanded that the Messiah come in a way that lined up with their
interpretation of scriptures and would not allow the experience of Jesus to change
their beliefs.
All truth is given by revelation from God and this is why the intellectuals
among us sometimes get it so wrong. Unless they allow themselves to receive
the truth from God first and only afterwards understand it in scriptures they
are prone to error.
The Father of our faith is Abraham and he lived by revelation...i.e. by
talking with and hearing God. There were no scriptures or cannon or
textus receptus. His sola scripture was literally whatever proceeded from
the mouth of God. The Ten Commandments, if you remember, were only
written down because God's people refused to hear His voice from mount
Horeb. The Bible, if you dare receive it, is a step down from the way that God really
wants to deal with His people.
Scriptures handled by people who yield to revelation are a wonderful thing
and highly profitable. However, scriptures handled by those who are
convinced that they can figure things out intellectually are tantamount to partaking
of the forbidden fruit.
Blessings,
Justin
Wormwood
Chaps
Justin,
I could not disagree more. The religious leaders did not miss Jesus because they believed in interpretation over experience. The miracles of Jesus fulfilled Scripture and were not meant to override Scripture so people could put their faith in their experiences. There are false miracles, that the Bible makes clear. Moreover, when Jesus was experiencing hunger and temptation, he relied on the Word of God in the midst of those trials. The idea that the Bible is a "step down" from the revelation God wants to give us is utter nonsense. The Bible is "God-breathed" and "cannot be broken." Paul told Timothy to watch his life and doctrine well, and by so doing he would save himself and his hearers. He did not say, "Listen carefully to your inner voice and personal experiences and you will save yourself and your hearers." Your line of reasoning has led to numerous cults and dangerous teachings that erupt from vain imaginations and all sorts of wild enthusiasm. The righteous live by faith in the Word of God, not by the power of their personal experiences. In fact, you border on Gnosticism which suggests that using the mind to study and search out the Scriptures is "carnal." We are called to love God with all of our minds. Jesus did not rebuke the religious leaders for their study of the Scriptures, but because their inability to see him as the fulfillment of those Scriptures. Certainly we do not try to quantify the Almighty, but neither to we dare say that the inspired Word of God is subservient and a "step down" from my own inner voice and experiences.
The reason Eve took the "forbidden fruit" is because she relied on her experience "it was pleasing to the eye and good for eating" rather than the solid Word of God which said, "You shall not eat of the fruit."
I could not disagree more. The religious leaders did not miss Jesus because they believed in interpretation over experience. The miracles of Jesus fulfilled Scripture and were not meant to override Scripture so people could put their faith in their experiences. There are false miracles, that the Bible makes clear. Moreover, when Jesus was experiencing hunger and temptation, he relied on the Word of God in the midst of those trials. The idea that the Bible is a "step down" from the revelation God wants to give us is utter nonsense. The Bible is "God-breathed" and "cannot be broken." Paul told Timothy to watch his life and doctrine well, and by so doing he would save himself and his hearers. He did not say, "Listen carefully to your inner voice and personal experiences and you will save yourself and your hearers." Your line of reasoning has led to numerous cults and dangerous teachings that erupt from vain imaginations and all sorts of wild enthusiasm. The righteous live by faith in the Word of God, not by the power of their personal experiences. In fact, you border on Gnosticism which suggests that using the mind to study and search out the Scriptures is "carnal." We are called to love God with all of our minds. Jesus did not rebuke the religious leaders for their study of the Scriptures, but because their inability to see him as the fulfillment of those Scriptures. Certainly we do not try to quantify the Almighty, but neither to we dare say that the inspired Word of God is subservient and a "step down" from my own inner voice and experiences.
The reason Eve took the "forbidden fruit" is because she relied on her experience "it was pleasing to the eye and good for eating" rather than the solid Word of God which said, "You shall not eat of the fruit."
Wormwood,
As you point out, Eve relied on her experience (actually, the experience of her senses) and one big LIE.
But there are spiritual experiences that are reliable. Such as the New Birth (Holy Spirit regeneration), the presence of the Lord, etc.
The following scriptures speak much about experience. The Pharisees would have experienced life if they had come to Jesus. Instead they chose to experience the honor that came from man rather than experience the honor that came from God.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
The Pharisees did not experience the love of God because it was not in them.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
The Pharisees did not experience the honor that comes from God only, because they chose to experience the honor that came from men.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
The whole of the Christian life is experiencing the reality of Christ in our daily life as we walk by faith. The book of Acts is all about experiences. The Life of Christ in the Gospels is all about experiences. Yes, Jesus relied on His real life relationship with the Father and He used the Scriptures as a weapon against Satan. He experienced an attack from Satan and then experienced the victory that remaining faithful brings.
Jesus does say, "If you do my will then will you know my doctrine". The doing comes first then the knowing.
I believe in acting upon the Word and true knowledge comes from obeying God's word and then experiencing the fruit of faithfulness and obedience. Of course, we can also experience the fruit of faithlessness and disobedience. There is a cause and effect to faith and faithfulness and associated experiences go with each one.
Axehead
As you point out, Eve relied on her experience (actually, the experience of her senses) and one big LIE.
But there are spiritual experiences that are reliable. Such as the New Birth (Holy Spirit regeneration), the presence of the Lord, etc.
The following scriptures speak much about experience. The Pharisees would have experienced life if they had come to Jesus. Instead they chose to experience the honor that came from man rather than experience the honor that came from God.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
The Pharisees did not experience the love of God because it was not in them.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
The Pharisees did not experience the honor that comes from God only, because they chose to experience the honor that came from men.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
The whole of the Christian life is experiencing the reality of Christ in our daily life as we walk by faith. The book of Acts is all about experiences. The Life of Christ in the Gospels is all about experiences. Yes, Jesus relied on His real life relationship with the Father and He used the Scriptures as a weapon against Satan. He experienced an attack from Satan and then experienced the victory that remaining faithful brings.
Jesus does say, "If you do my will then will you know my doctrine". The doing comes first then the knowing.
I believe in acting upon the Word and true knowledge comes from obeying God's word and then experiencing the fruit of faithfulness and obedience. Of course, we can also experience the fruit of faithlessness and disobedience. There is a cause and effect to faith and faithfulness and associated experiences go with each one.
Axehead
I wonder why the fascination with "Demon's and possible habitation within Christians". Could this be another "curiosity killed the cat" scenario? Or maybe it's another chance for demons to develop a teaching to keep the ignorant in the dark.
I say this having come from a 'deliverance ministry' background.
I say this having come from a 'deliverance ministry' background.
Dear W,
Relying upon our senses is quite different that living by revelation.
Walking with God through hearing every word that He speaks through the Holy
Spirit dwelling inside you, through His word, through others, through
circumstance, through even the creation itself is what I am speaking
about. It presupposes a certain level of intimacy with our Father as His
adopted sons.
Eve had revelation that she chose to ignore because she decided to believe a
lie.
From what you wrote, if I understand you right, you advocate that the word
of God trumps our experience in God. If
in doubt we should believe what we read rather than what we experience in God. My
point, which you may not be understanding is that God voice trumps our
understanding of His word and not the word itself.
Dear J,
I don't have a fascination with germs but I knowing about them and how they can
potentially harm us is very valuable. Though they are unseen they can
even be deadly if we eat meat that has not been properly kept or cooked. Curiosity
in fact is what lead very intelligent men to discover microbes and through
their investigation of these tiny unseen pathogens many have been saved from
infection and even death.
Like unseen microbes demons do their work often times unnoticed until their
effect is felt. When their effect is felt it is good to know how to deal
with them through understanding how they operate in us. So this is what I
am getting at and this is the value that we can gain from understanding our
enemy.
Blessings,
Justin
Relying upon our senses is quite different that living by revelation.
Walking with God through hearing every word that He speaks through the Holy
Spirit dwelling inside you, through His word, through others, through
circumstance, through even the creation itself is what I am speaking
about. It presupposes a certain level of intimacy with our Father as His
adopted sons.
Eve had revelation that she chose to ignore because she decided to believe a
lie.
From what you wrote, if I understand you right, you advocate that the word
of God trumps our experience in God. If
in doubt we should believe what we read rather than what we experience in God. My
point, which you may not be understanding is that God voice trumps our
understanding of His word and not the word itself.
Dear J,
I don't have a fascination with germs but I knowing about them and how they can
potentially harm us is very valuable. Though they are unseen they can
even be deadly if we eat meat that has not been properly kept or cooked. Curiosity
in fact is what lead very intelligent men to discover microbes and through
their investigation of these tiny unseen pathogens many have been saved from
infection and even death.
Like unseen microbes demons do their work often times unnoticed until their
effect is felt. When their effect is felt it is good to know how to deal
with them through understanding how they operate in us. So this is what I
am getting at and this is the value that we can gain from understanding our
enemy.
Blessings,
Justin
If your light is darkness, how great is that darkness.Justin Mangonel said:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! Mathew 6:21-23
Dear R,
Your doctrine says no but real life experience says otherwize. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
Blessings,
Justin
Your doctrine says no but real life experience says otherwize. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
Blessings,
Justin
Dear J
Your imagination says yes the scripture says no, This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
Your imagination says yes the scripture says no, This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
Dear All,
The reason snipers are so dangerous in war is that they strive to remain hidden until they attack. In the same way demons try to remain hidden so that they can work their evil in secret until they attack.
Blessings,
Justin
The reason snipers are so dangerous in war is that they strive to remain hidden until they attack. In the same way demons try to remain hidden so that they can work their evil in secret until they attack.
Blessings,
Justin
no biblical mention ofJustin Mangonel said:
Demon's Dwelling Within Christians
Its not surprising that's your spiritual experience,
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18143-spiritual-experiences/#entry193358
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