Do Men Have Authority Over Women?

[marks]

Except I have not. I have already told you this.

I feel like I'm getting a mixed message from you.

Much love!

 

[praise_yeshua]

And how does that change anything I wrote in the OP in your view? What part of the OP was incorrect according to Scripture? I have not denied men are to love their wives.

You are purposely ignore the entirely of what Paul stated.

You are wrong about....

Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Luther wasn't like you.

and how would you know that????

 

[praise_yeshua]

and how would you know that????

I can read what he wrote compared to what you write. HUGE difference.

 

[reformed1689]

You are purposely ignore the entirely of what Paul stated.

You are wrong about....

Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).

Really, please show me where in Scripture it allows for women pastors. Specifically, look at the qualifications given by Paul in his other epistles.

 

[reformed1689]

I feel like I'm getting a mixed message from you.

Much love!

Ok, @marks I know we have our differences both theologically and the way we carry ourselves here. But let's talk this out. Where do you think I am giving a mixed message, can you give me an example so I can help flesh it out for you?

 

[reformed1689]

You've got this slate of rules worked out . . . but they are not in the Bible.

For instance . . . where does it say women can teach "young men"?

You are the calling Paul's statement a command, now you offer "a rule", I'm the one saying he wrote about himself. You are the one turning that into a command/rule/maxim/pickyourword, Again, whatever our conclusions, we need to be able to read the Bible for what it says, and to recognize what it isn't saying.

And to realize . . . "It's OK for women to teach men until the 5th grade" that this is arbitrarily made up, and is NOT based in the Bible. Nothing tells us that.


Much love!

Actually I believe you called it a command first, I was using your terminology, but I could be wrong. Now, as far as where women can teach young men, we know that by example. See the life of Timothy.

As far as 5th grade, I base that on when in Jewish culture that is when they would have been considered a man after leaving today's fifth grade. Greek/Roman culture it would have been 16 so I guess you could allow all the way to 16.

 

[reformed1689]

You've fleshed it out a little more in a later post . . .



Men do not have authority over women.

Wives are to submit to their husbands, and husbands are to love their wives. This does not apply to the unmarried.

Much love!

Yes and that is not the only scenario I dealt with in the OP.

 

[marks]

Ok, @marks I know we have our differences both theologically and the way we carry ourselves here. But let's talk this out. Where do you think I am giving a mixed message, can you give me an example so I can help flesh it out for you?

Agreed. But this is not a thread about that authority being abused or potentially abused. This is in direct response to women who say men do not have authority over them.

Should I understand that this second quote above was not actually intended as a general statement?

If a woman is not married, what man do you think has "Authority" over her?

(keeping in mind what Paul actually said had nothing to do with husbands having "authority", his statement was to wives about submission.)

Much love!

 

[marks]

Actually I believe you called it a command first, I was using your terminology, but I could be wrong. Now, as far as where women can teach young men, we know that by example. See the life of Timothy.

As far as 5th grade, I base that on when in Jewish culture that is when they would have been considered a man after leaving today's fifth grade. Greek/Roman culture it would have been 16 so I guess you could allow all the way to 16.

I'm with you, I've forgotten who said what first, and I don't care enough to backtrack.

Regardless.

Women teaching young men, that's anecdotal. That Timothy was taught his mother and grandmother says nothing about whether we are or are not to follow the same pattern.

Using cultural customs doesn't replace the Bible either. We know that young men don't finish developing until their mid-20's so why not that? Our age of majority is 18, why not that?

And how do you know how old Timothy was being taught by women?

Is a mother allowed to teach their adult male children?

Again . . . I hope this is remembered . . . regardless of our conclusions, we still need to read the passages for what they say, and not what they don't say.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There are appropriate (Biblical) roles for women in the corporate church. Preaching and teaching are not.

Could you quote for me the passages which teach us about the different roles in the church, and who is prescribed to fill those rolls?

Much love!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Really, please show me where in Scripture it allows for women pastors. Specifically, look at the qualifications given by Paul in his other epistles.

Phillip's daughters were what?

The REAL issue is one of "name it claim it"......

Most people live their lives pretending to be various characters throughout the Bible. Just flipping your fingers through the Scripture and choose which one's you think apply to you, isn't scholarship. It is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Exactly how do you establish the proper authority to ordain a pastor/elder? Quoting Timothy and Titus doesn't give authority to ANYONE!.....

"Assemblies appoint people with "itchy ear" conditions. Nothing more. The issue you have is MORE than just gender. It is a "name it claim it" theology based upon the carnal imaginations of men.

 

[marks]

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon(ess) (διάκονον) of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. (Romans 16:1-2 NIV)

Paul sent his most important letter, the one that had tremendous influence on Augustine, Luther, Wesley, et.al. and on Protestantism today, this epistle he entrusted to a woman. Representing Paul himself, she would've circulated through the house churches of Rome, reading Paul's letter and taken Q-and-A afterwards.

They shouldn't have listened to a woman.

This makes an excellent point!

Pheobe was a deacon . . . and the passages which tell us how to choose a deacon imply that they are men.

So the thing to understand from this is, Who can be a Deacon, and, How we are to choose a Deacon, these are not the same thing.

When deacons are appointed, appoint men. But sometimes deacons are just known. The woman who is setting up the chairs before the meeting, she comes early because she knows it needs to be done. Then there is no one to take care of the lobby tables, so she does. And then she sees no one had vacuumed, and so it goes, and a deaconess is caring for the needs of the church.

According to Biblical instructions, we should not choose Pheobe to be a deaconness, and yet there she is!

How to choose . . . and who can actually do it, these are different.

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I am simply amazed at the lengths some will go to to defend such a putrid concept that men have the right to do with women whatever they feel like doing, all in the name of "God given authority".

Do me a favor @marks

Go through your Bible and white out every passage that offends you and don’t be an hypocrite with private interpretations so you can feel good about yourself while contracting the Bible while at the same time reverencing it:

Hypocrite!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Could you quote for me the passages which teach us about the different roles in the church, and who is prescribed to fill those rolls?

Much love!

Everyone does what is right in their own eyes.......

There is no Scriptural authority for what is going on today in modern Christianity. People are just "making it up" as they go.....

The apostles left this world warning about apostasy that would take place after they left. We don't have a single word from Timothy and Titus "post apostles".... Not one. This entire world feel into apostasy soon after the death of the apostles. That is why there are over hundred years of silence in historical Christianity.

 

[marks]

Do me a favor @marks

Go through your Bible and white out every passage that offends you and don’t be an hypocrite with private interpretations so you can feel good about yourself while contracting the Bible while at the same time reverencing it:

Hypocrite!

You seem desperate. Or something. How would that be a favor to you?

Much love!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do me a favor @marks

Go through your Bible and white out every passage that offends you and don’t be an hypocrite with private interpretations so you can feel good about yourself while contracting the Bible while at the same time reverencing it:

Hypocrite!

I believe you're the one with "whiteout" here.....

I'd like to see you authoritative establish any modern assembly. I'll wait.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Pheobe was a deacon

No she wasn’t.

She was a servant.

The OFFICE of a Deacon (Servant) is expressly for men alone.

“Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.” (1 Timothy 3:12)

A husband is a MAN!

Man what a corrupter you are!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I believe you're the one with "whiteout" here.....

All the scriptures I posted stand as a witness to you!

 

[praise_yeshua]

No she wasn’t.

She was a servant.

The OFFICE of a Deacon (Servant) is expressly for men alone.

“Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.” (1 Timothy 3:12)

A husband is a MAN!

Man what a corrupter you are!

What if a women isn't married and has made herself a virgin for the Kingdom of God?