Do Not Assume That I Have Come to Bring Peace

[Adam]

Not really an answer to my question but I can understand why you'd dodge your scrutiny of the series of your unsupportable statements.

It is an answer to the question. Those who think they are most like God are in fact most like the Devil.

John 13
3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

contrast this with:

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

 

[Adam]

To anyone hoping Jesus will come in wrath to kill all the nonbelievers, you better hope that Jesus doesn't come again in your lifetime because you haven't figured out how all this works yet and things won't unfold as you expect them to.

Look, I'll show you the antichrist:

2 Thessalonians 2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Here is the third temple that the antichrist sits in:

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Behold, it is you. You are the man of sin.

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[Keraz]

Yes, and I looked at how he translated Genesis 13:14-18 and it contains the same contextual errors that are also found in our other English translations.

In your opinion. NOT mine.
At my age, it is simply impossible for me to learn Hebrew and Greek, even for a young person, it would take their lifetime. Your demand that we should go back to the ancient texts. is simply untenable.
I cited Ferrar Fenton as an example of someone who did just that. I admire him and trust his Bible, as he had no 'church' doctrines or agenda to support.

 

[Wrangler]

It is an answer to the question. Those who think they are most like God are in fact most like the Devil.

It’s not an answer and your citations do not at all support what you claim.

 

[Adam]

It’s not an answer and your citations do not at all support what you claim.

You want a completely direct answer to whether apostles can be evil? Yes, Judas was an apostle and he was possessed by the Devil. The Devil himself was once a high ranking angel. This proves that ANYONE can fall if they are not on guard against pride.

When Jesus was asked which of the apostles was greatest, he rebuked them.

Luke 22
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Jesus dined with sinners.

Matthew 9
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

Jesus advocated taking the worst seat at a wedding

Luke 14
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;

9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.

10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Paul frequently said in his letters, he was the lowest of the apostles.

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

What about those who thought they were God's elect?

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

The Bible is clear on this: if you think you are better than other men, you will be beneath them in the next life, it doesn't matter how much you pray or fast or tithe.

Luke 18
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You can chant "Jesus wash away my sins in the blood of the cross" all you want, it won't make a difference because what matters is how you treat people.

Isaiah 29:13
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Matthew 5
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

 

[Wrangler]

You want a completely direct answer to whether apostles can be evil?

No. Let's review the train wreck so far.

Publicans and harlots mean gays and atheists to you?

Publicans and harlots represent exactly that, "people you find detestible and evil".

Here, you are turning words that have objective meaning into a subjective standard that depends on how I feel about these people AND you claim to know my feelings (presumably, better than I do). Not sure why you made this personal. But there it is.

So, in your estimation detestible and evil people will enter heaven before God’s elect? Nice.

If anyone has the hubris to call themselves "God's elect" then they are certainly not one of them.

Does this include Jesus and the Apostles? Asking for a friend.

OK. So, far the list of unaswered questions are:

1. In your estimation detestible and evil people will enter heaven before God’s elect? (YES OR NO)
2. Does this - anyone who has the hubris to call themselves "God's elect" then they are certainly not one of them - include Jesus and the Apostles? Asking for a friend. (YES OR NO)

For obvious reason, you keep referring to Judas, implying that exceptions make rules.

 

[Adam]

Here, you are turning words that have objective meaning into a subjective standard that depends on how I feel about these people AND you claim to know my feelings (presumably, better than I do). Not sure why you made this personal. But there it is.

I am not talking about you, I am expressing the idea that "publicans and harlots" are a stand-in for "anyone you might hate". "You" meaning "You the reader" not "Wrangler"

OK. So, far the list of unaswered questions are:

1. In your estimation detestible and evil people will enter heaven before God’s elect? (YES OR NO)

Yes, because the Bible says that people who trust in their own righteousness but despise others, are actually below them in God's esteem. I have posted scriptural quotes to confirm that. By thinking you are God's elite, you are just doing what the pharisees did.

1. Does this - anyone who has the hubris to call themselves "God's elect" then they are certainly not one of them - include Jesus and the Apostles? Asking for a friend. (YES OR NO)

"God's elect" are people who are humble and serve others. Jesus required that the Apostles always serve others and never seek status.

For obvious reason, you keep referring to Judas, implying that exceptions make rules.

The Devil was an angel. Nobody is above falling. That is why Jesus teaches humility and not trusting in your own righteousness, but serving others, even people who you think are sinners.

 

[Wrangler]

I am not talking about you, I am expressing the idea that "publicans and harlots" are a stand-in for "anyone you might hate".

That is a very wrong idea as I already explained.

 

[Wrangler]

"God's elect" are people who are humble and serve others. Jesus required that the Apostles always serve others and never seek status.

You obviously do not want to answer my YES or NO question; does identifying oneself as 'God's elect' automatically disqualifing one as being God's elect include Jesus and the Apostles (excluding Judas)?

 

[Adam]

You obviously do not want to answer my YES or NO question; does identifying oneself as 'God's elect' automatically disqualifing one as being God's elect include Jesus and the Apostles (excluding Judas)?

If God in the form of a dove or a man or a burning bush, personally tells you that you are pleasing to him, you can count yourself as "God's elect".

If you just act like God favors you because you think you're holier than other people, then you are terribly mistaken.

 

[quietthinker]

You obviously do not want to answer my YES or NO question; does identifying oneself as 'God's elect' automatically disqualifing one as being God's elect include Jesus and the Apostles (excluding Judas)?

Adam did answer your Yes or No question in post #47

 

[Wrangler]

Adam did answer your Yes or No question in post #47

No. He said, 'Yes' then explained it was to a different question that I asked.

Q. Did you kill JFK?
A. Yes, I have killed vermin throughout my life. Everyone kills vermin. I don't know why you would have a problem with exterminating vermin. It is a legitimate business all around the world. We don't need that kind of extremist thinking.

 

[quietthinker]

No. He said, 'Yes' then explained it was to a different question that I asked.

Q. Did you kill JFK?
A. Yes, I have killed vermin throughout my life. Everyone kills vermin. I don't know why you would have a problem with exterminating vermin. It is a legitimate business all around the world. We don't need that kind of extremist thinking.

OK. So, far the list of unaswered questions are:

1. In your estimation detestible and evil people will enter heaven before God’s elect? (YES OR NO)

Adam replied with, Yes, because the Bible says that people who trust in their own righteousness but despise others, are actually below them in God's esteem. I have posted scriptural quotes to confirm that. By thinking you are God's elite, you are just doing what the pharisees did.

 

[Wrangler]

Adam replied with, Yes, because the Bible says that people who trust in their own righteousness but despise others, are actually below them in God's esteem. I have posted scriptural quotes to confirm that. By thinking you are God's elite, you are just doing what the pharisees did.

What is wrong with you? Did you kill KJF? Yes, I kissed him.

1. In your estimation detestible and evil people will enter heaven before God’s elect? (YES OR NO)
2. Does this - anyone who has the hubris to call themselves "God's elect" then they are certainly not one of them - include Jesus and the Apostles? Asking for a friend. (YES OR NO)

Elect. Elite. Killed. Kissed.

 

[Adam]

What is wrong with you? Did you kill KJF? Yes, I kissed him.

1. In your estimation detestible and evil people will enter heaven before God’s elect? (YES OR NO)
2. Does this - anyone who has the hubris to call themselves "God's elect" then they are certainly not one of them - include Jesus and the Apostles? Asking for a friend. (YES OR NO)

Elect. Elite. Killed. Kissed.

You're being silly