Do We as Christians Keep the Mosaic Law?

[Saint]

If you think you are alive in the spirit and do not because of love attempt to obey the ten laws as written by Yeshua you are kidding yourselves It's the same old thing; we do not attempt works to be saved, we do works because we are saved.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Axehead]

The tablets of stone were for stony hearts. They require perfection in the flesh and that is impossible. That is why we have turned to Jesus Christ. When we die, and are buried with Him in baptism and raised in newness of Life, we have been freed from the Law's condemnation and redeemed from the curse of the law.

The law only requires outward compliance (not purity of heart) while the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus purifies the inner man.

When you died with Christ the law cannot reach to you beyond the grave. You have died to the rudiments, ordinances and statues of the Law.

We live now by the life of Christ. The Law cannot produce fruit only the Spirit of God can.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, (death has made you free to be married to Christ) even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

We produce fruit now because of the Life of Christ that dwells within us by the Holy Spirit.


Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh (not born-again, spiritually regenerated), the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead (our death freed us) wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Axehead

 

[0bed]

Amen.

If you think you are alive in the spirit and do not because of love attempt to obey the ten laws as written by Yeshua you are kidding yourselves It's the same old thing; we do not attempt works to be saved, we do works because we are saved.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[dragonfly]

Greetings, Axehead,

Thank you for your two posts. I have heard this topic preached on, many times in the past, and can honestly say I've never understood Romans 7:1 - 4 so clearly. A big thank you! I'm blessed.

 

[williemac]

If you think you are alive in the spirit and do not because of love attempt to obey the ten laws as written by Yeshua you are kidding yourselves It's the same old thing; we do not attempt works to be saved, we do works because we are saved.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Here's the rub: You use the word "attempt". This acknowledges our inability to keep the law to its righteous requirement. But where in any new covenant passage are we or anyone instructed to 'attempt' to keep the ten commandments? Jesus said they will know us by our love for one another. We are told to love Him through loving others. 1John 3:23 sums up what the new covenant commandments are from Jesus: faith in Him and love for others. These are His commandments. And they are different than the prior ones in that they do not carry a curse within them. Perfection in our walk with God is not required of us. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control; which speak of how we are to behave and relate to others.... in the strength of our joy and peace with God...."against such there is no law".... Love does no harm to a neighbour...therefore love (for our neighbour) is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Axehead]

Greetings, Axehead,

Thank you for your two posts. I have heard this topic preached on, many times in the past, and can honestly say I've never understood Romans 7:1 - 4 so clearly. A big thank you! I'm blessed.

Hi Dragonfly,

It always seemed more important to me to understand Romans 7 in my Christian walk then say, Revelation. I knew that whatever it meant, it went to the very core of my walk with Christ. I think these are key verses.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Being crucified (death) with Him frees us from sin.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

But we need to be set free from more than just the power of sin. We need freedom from condemnation so that we may serve the Lord from our heart.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? (only as long as he liveth).


Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. <-- The Law is good, but it cannot bring life, it cannot save, it only judges and condemns.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh (as opposed to "In Christ), the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

And then of course this wonderful masterpiece of "music" has as its crescendo,
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus (means you died with Him and were raised in newness of life), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The first key thought is "In Christ Jesus". Scriptures teach to be in Christ is to have been born-again, spiritually regenerated (signifying that you have died with Christ, and if you have died then as we have seen you have been set free from sin and are no longer under the law. The Law cannot reach a dead person. The Law has no power or jurisdiction over a dead person.

We are under a NEW LAW! The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It is exciting to understand what the Lord provided for us in His death. Then we get to walk with Him and find out what His life in us is all about.

Thank you for your comment.

Axehead

 

[JLB]

If you think you are alive in the spirit and do not because of love attempt to obey the ten laws as written by Yeshua you are kidding yourselves It's the same old thing; we do not attempt works to be saved, we do works because we are saved.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

If you think "works" is trying to "keep" the 10 commandments you have another thing coming.

Cast out devils, speak in new tongues, lay hands on the sick and they will recover are just a few of the "works that I do you will do also"...

JLB

 

[richard79408]

Sabitarian, greetings in Christ from sunny and hot Texas,

I do not speak for anyone but myself--but the inspired Scriptures tell me so--sorry if that in so inconvient for you..

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And, yes, you bet--I am not a pre mill dispensationalist at all--nope. That fallacy is going no where fast. But I do admit it took like almost thirty years to figure out what a false teaching that is--

Jesus did many things including fulfilling all of those prophecies concerning Him by the time of the cross.

The tribulation is a man made doctrine that gains in popularity in the late 1800's when Christ does not come back as expected.

Oh--it's exciting but what I saw but you cannot yet see--is that all those predictions are shelved every generation or so in favor of new ones. some folks cannot not figure out that God does not work that way..

But this I do know--that Mosaic law is long gone--it went away at the cross. Trying to convince yourself or anyone else that it is still around is not the best thing in the world.

Richard 79408

 

[0bed]

That is very true Richard, but you know there are religions that still follow Old Testament law, the ones I know are :-

Judaism, Islam, Seventh Day Adventists, The Churches of God and the Baha'i.

Sabitarian, greetings in Christ from sunny and hot Texas,

I do not speak for anyone but myself--but the inspired Scriptures tell me so--sorry if that in so inconvient for you..

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And, yes, you bet--I am not a pre mill dispensationalist at all--nope. That fallacy is going no where fast. But I do admit it took like almost thirty years to figure out what a false teaching that is--

Jesus did many things including fulfilling all of those prophecies concerning Him by the time of the cross.

The tribulation is a man made doctrine that gains in popularity in the late 1800's when Christ does not come back as expected.

Oh--it's exciting but what I saw but you cannot yet see--is that all those predictions are shelved every generation or so in favor of new ones. some folks cannot not figure out that God does not work that way..

But this I do know--that Mosaic law is long gone--it went away at the cross. Trying to convince yourself or anyone else that it is still around is not the best thing in the world.

Richard 79408

 

[richard79408]

Obed, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Well, a whole lot more folks than those do but don't understand that is what they are doing. That is because of the RCC title page given to us in 1486. If we [a] take that page out of the scriptures since it is man made and Allow the scriptures to provide the normal end of the Mosaic Covenant--it would end at the cross--at the end of the ministry and life of Christ and not at His birth.

Because of this we are frustrated and confused with one another a lot simply because we mix covenants and thus mix covenant commandments--

One can read about the title page here-- it is illuminating

http://rgfheart.com/cov/1/ choose the first one

Richard79408

 

[0bed]

That's very good Richard, did you write it?

I'm not a lover of RCC doctrine myself and if you compare the clothes they wear (look at pictures of Levite priests) and the ceremony I find it reminiscent of Judaism that in my view was imported into the early church by Peter and others who were of course Jews. Personally I believe they are leading people away from a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and relying on the traditions of men which they readily admit to doing and get very upset if they are told the tradition of men is not the way of the Cross. You are so right.
May God bless.

Obed, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Well, a whole lot more folks than those do but don't understand that is what they are doing. That is because of the RCC title page given to us in 1486. If we [a] take that page out of the scriptures since it is man made and Allow the scriptures to provide the normal end of the Mosaic Covenant--it would end at the cross--at the end of the ministry and life of Christ and not at His birth.

Because of this we are frustrated and confused with one another a lot simply because we mix covenants and thus mix covenant commandments--

One can read about the title page here-- it is illuminating

http://rgfheart.com/cov/1/ choose the first one

Richard79408

 

[dragonfly]

the first question remains, "How are we to judge another's walk if not by the Law?"

Who said we are to 'judge another's walk'? Is this scriptural? If so, where is the instruction?

The Lord tells us how to distinguish those who are His, from those who are not,

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

and He commands us to love one another.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ....

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 4: 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


Is this what you were trying to get at, biggandyy?

 

[richard79408]

Obed, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

No, I am not the author of that particular writing. However, I do edit and research and then publish it online for others to study.

Richard79408

 

[Axehead]

Hi JLB,

Before I go to the trouble of finding scripture for you, please could you comment on the following verses and their application since Pentecost?

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


Many thanks.

That is an excellent verse Dragonfly!

The Law is not made for a righteous man and no one apart from Jesus Christ dwelling in them can be called righteous.

Also, the righteousness WITHOUT (apart from) the Law, was witnessed by the LAW and the PROPHETS. The law and the prophets saw another "righteousness" apart from them.

Rom_3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

This righteousness was by faith in Jesus Christ.
Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom_3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

It is being IN CHRIST that makes one righteous.
1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Gal_3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I don't know how the Scriptures can be any clearer. The scriptures conclude that ALL are under sin that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Before faith came we were all shut up under the Law. Shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

LAW = Schoolmaster

We are no longer under a schoolmaster = we are no longer under the LAW

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Axehead

 

[Saint]

Have you ever trained a dog, in the beginning you either keep him on a leash or in a pen; these devices are like the law and you employee them until the dog has the heart or mind to understand what is required and can be trusted to obey. Then you can remove the restraints and let him have some freedom; he can be trusted to obey your will.

1Ti 1:9 ESV understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,

The moral laws of Yeshua are not done away with; rather they are imprinted upon the mind of the obedient.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[richard79408]

Bob, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Bob, covenant law does not work in that manner. God's Moral law has always been with us--Beginning in the Garden with God's moral law of sin and of death which for the alien sinner is the law they still are accountable to.

God made a covenant with Israel--and, it remained in force until the cross--then it was fullfilled taken out of the way nailed to the cross.

It had to go--that is the Mosaic law--it all had to go not just parts of it--Because the jew could not be married to two laws at the same time. The same holds true for the alien sinner today--
the law that kills has to be totally removed when they obey the gospel--just as it is f or the Jews and the Mosaic law.

God has given all men a new covenant--not a covenant with some of the old attached or patched in or pasted in on occassion.

That was the promise-- remember new heart, new spirit new covenant and it totally replaces the old.

Richard79408

 

[Axehead]

Have you ever trained a dog, in the beginning you either keep him on a leash or in a pen; these devices are like the law and you employee them until the dog has the heart or mind to understand what is required and can be trusted to obey. Then you can remove the restraints and let him have some freedom; he can be trusted to obey your will.

1Ti 1:9 ESV understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,

The moral laws of Yeshua are not done away with; rather they are imprinted upon the mind of the obedient.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Your ESV version is funny. "the law is not laid down for the just"

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

κεῖμαι
keimai
ki'-mahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively): - be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie.

It's more like "the law is not laid, or does not lie outstretched or is not laid up, or not set" for the righteous man. Your ESV has total opposite of the meaning in the Greek here, saying "The law is not laid down for the righteous man". That is a total perversion of the greek and the meaning behind many other scriptures in the NT.

Do you not understand that the Believer' death and resurrection in Jesus Christ freed him from the jurisdiction of the law. He is no longer married to it and is free to marry another (Christ) Roman 7:1-7:4.

This makes me wonder who translated the ESV.

Axehead

 

[Sabitarian]

Axehead, you paint a pretty picture, but please tell me why 50,000,000 Christians were killed by the Papal Church? What did all of these Christians have in common? Why was the Catholic Church so rigorous in searching them out to be killed, what was their crime against the Church? The answer to these questions will be shocking to most of you. If you can not answer these simple questions then you are no student of the Word. The answers are in the Book of Revelation.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

 

[williemac]

Axehead, you paint a pretty picture, but please tell me why 50,000,000 Christians were killed by the Papal Church? What did all of these Christians have in common? Why was the Catholic Church so rigorous in searching them out to be killed, what was their crime against the Church? The answer to these questions will be shocking to most of you. If you can not answer these simple questions then you are no student of the Word. The answers are in the Book of Revelation.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

500,000,000 Christians? I detect some laziness. Show us your references, please. I am not just going to take your word for it. Neither will I be intimidated or the least bit worried by your suggestion that as a student of the word I should already know all these things. This is a debate forum. Throwing insults is powerless. The valid method is rather to quote the sources or the passages and explain their meaning. Thank you, Howie over to you, Axehead. What sayest thou to Sabitarian's musings.

 

[Axehead]

500,000,000 Christians? I detect some laziness. Show us your references, please. I am not just going to take your word for it. Neither will I be intimidated or the least bit worried by your suggestion that as a student of the word I should already know all these things. This is a debate forum. Throwing insults is powerless. The valid method is rather to quote the sources or the passages and explain their meaning. Thank you, Howie over to you, Axehead. What sayest thou to Sabitarian's musings.

I have also heard and read about the 50,000,000 (not 500,000,00 as you say). You have to understand that the Inquisition and the onslaught was spread over 6-8 centuries. In the 20th century alone, 100,000,000 people were killed in wars, so it is not hard to believe that 50 million may have been massacred over 6-8 centuries.

Their crime against the RCC church was that they would not bow to the Pope as the human representative (Vicar) of Christ on earth. Their crime was that they would not confess their sins to a man, pray to Mary, baptize their infants, entrust their daughters to convents, pay indulgences, pay obeisance to men in pretty garments, kiss their rings, or stop reading the Bible for themselves, etc, etc, etc.

Axehead