Do We as Christians Keep the Mosaic Law?

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0bed

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Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Acts 16:31

Then follows the daily walk with Christ.

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27 :)
 

richard79408

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Richard B, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
you said --You left our what our obedience is. Is it not sinning or is it keeping our faith in Jesus' work on the cross.
My response--Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.


by the way that is done by faith..Our faith produces our works--illustrating our faith.
This is not hard.
 

mjrhealth

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Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

And that is where we are at.

In all His Love
 

RichardBurger

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Richard B, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
you said --You left our what our obedience is. Is it not sinning or is it keeping our faith in Jesus' work on the cross.
My response--Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.


by the way that is done by faith..Our faith produces our works--illustrating our faith.
This is not hard.

If our faith produces good works why do you feel it necessary to tell others that they must have good works?? Won't they have then regardless of your proding them? Or do you say it and really don't believe it.

So obeying from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to you is doing works!!?? Do you think the doctrine is keeping the law? The doctrine is of grace, not law. It is that Jesus died on the cross and HAS reconciled to God all that trust in Him and His shed blood.

Your scriptures do not negate the ones I gave in the study.

You can't mix works of the law and grace.

I think I definded what our work is for this age of grace. It is to keep faith, trust, confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross. Disobeying God is to not believe His gospel of grace (promises).

But the religious will defind our work for this age to be one of trying not to sin. To them, if a person does all that their religion says to do and tries not to sin they are doing all that is necessary for salvation. They have faith in what they are doing to obtain salvation. --- They are so intent on good works that they totally miss the work that God has already accomplished on our behalf.
 

0bed

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Disobeying God is when we DO believe His gospel of grace (promises) but disregard or reject it and go our own way.

If our faith produces good works why do you feel it necessary to tell others that they must have good works?? Won't they have then regardless of your proding them? Or do you say it and really don't believe it.

So obeying from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to you is doing works!!?? Do you think the doctrine is keeping the law? The doctrine is of grace, not law. It is that Jesus died on the cross and HAS reconciled to God all that trust in Him and His shed blood.

Your scriptures do not negate the ones I gave in the study.

You can't mix works of the law and grace.

I think I definded what our work is for this age of grace. It is to keep faith, trust, confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross. Disobeying God is to not believe His gospel of grace (promises).

But the religious will defind our work for this age to be one of trying not to sin. To them, if a person does all that their religion says to do and tries not to sin they are doing all that is necessary for salvation. They have faith in what they are doing to obtain salvation. --- They are so intent on good works that they totally miss the work that God has already accomplished on our behalf.
 

richard79408

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Richard B, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
I believe James has a pretty good handle on it=
Jas_2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas_2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jas_3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
1Pe_2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.


Richard 79408
 

richard79408

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Obed, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
you said--That is correct, I cannot for the life of me understand why after all these years people are talking about the old Mosaic (Levitical law).
My response one reason is that they have not yet learned to divide the scriptures by covenants.
They will use 2 Tim 3:16-17 and think about 2 Tim 2:15 and because a lot of folks don't we have what we have today.
Richard 79408
 

RichardBurger

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Richard B, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
I believe James has a pretty good handle on it=
Jas_2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas_2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jas_3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
1Pe_2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.


Richard 79408

Please do not quote scripture that was written to the Jews who were under the law of Moses (James 1:1). It does not apply to those under grace;

James 1:1 -- JAMES Greeting to the Twelve Tribes
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
NKJV

Not everything in the scriptures were written to those under grace.
 

0bed

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As you say good works don't save and we are all agreed that keeping the law does not save. What saves is faith in Jesus and the acceptance of His gift of salvation.
With salvations comes a change of heart and we repent of our sins. This means giving up our old sinful ways and following Jesus, for as it says in Hebrews 10:26 "if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"
Or as Jesus said, "Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near." Matthew 4:17


A person rejects it when they place their faith in what they do instead of what Jesus did on the cross.
 

richard79408

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Richard B, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

It is unfortunate that you do not like James because I do--God has given us James and the message is as valid for the converted jews to Christianity as we Gentiles who are converted to Christianity.

And by covenant--under the new covenant--all who convert to Christ are Christians

Those Jews that converted to Christianity are under Grace--every bit as anyone else today.

Richard79408
 

servantfiss

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Greetings and Salutations Brethren !

I am new to this forum and would love to wiegh in on this topic as I have done much study on it . As we know Iron sharpens Iron , so lets look at this topic with only that which is written , as well as by the rules set out by the Word itself :D
 

richard79408

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Richard B. Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


To go along with love

Richard 79408
 

servantfiss

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I know many things have been posted on this topic as is to be acpected , so I will try not to cover ground already trodden , but let us look at this New Covenant spoken of in Jer. 31:31 .

He made this New Covenant with the house of Israel and Judah (31) , and then defines what the Covanant is (33) , saying " I will put My Law in their inward parts , and write it in their hearts "

So we know by the very mouth of God the Father that His Law is what the New Covenant is built around , so the question that was posted on this forum was ,
Do We as Christians Keep the Mosaic Law?

Mark S wrote many of the things that are a rubber stamp of sorts as far as doctrine goes in our places of worship , but as we know the doctrine of men do not contain salvation and can offten lead us to hell's gate , so lets look at what the Word says about this topic and try best we can to listen , learn and teach just those things written .

In Matt. 5 we find the Christ sitting on a mountain speaking to what is called a multitude , from all over the region , some Greek , some Hebrew , as the story is told ( Galilee , Decapolis , Jerusalem , Judaea ) .

Beggining in verse 17 the Christ begins to speak of the Law ,

:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

We offten hear this scripture quoted and many have much to say concerning it , but rarely do we find a man that will finish the words of the Christ in full .

19 : Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 :For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

ok , so some say , oh but this was before the cross and He was teaching things that would have no value to anyone after He died on the cross , a stance I would never take by the way . So lets look further into this subject . Although there are many accounts of His followers obeying the Law after He died on the cross for our sins , lets look at the written word instead of the actions of His followers since many will claim even after following Him about for years they still didnt understand .

Acts 15 and 21 are great examples of the Holy Spirit as well as the apostles working through this very topic

Acts 15:1 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.







So here is the very question being asked in scripture , I'll not post the whole bible of course , you must read the entire account for yourself , let us go to the answer they came to on this matter . But notice if you will this question was only for the Gentiles , not the Hebrew .

9 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

So here is how the Gentiles are saved , the sme way the Hebrew are of course , but this still doesnt answer the question as we ask it .
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
28
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Of course we always stay in context , and that is " obey the Law to be saved ? ", here we see the words " lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;"

Necessary for what ? , Salvation , after all that is the context that has been set , but still the question is not fully answered , let us look further .

Acts 21:20 :And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

Here we see Paul being told of this accusation about the Law and the customs of MNoses , lets see what he says and how he replies .

23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Ok , so here is his answer , the accusation is a lie , " nothing " , and also lets notice the end of that verse , where we see these words "keepest the law "

It's quite plain that Paul kept the law as well as those other Hebrews of the faith , now lets read on

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

We see again there is a differance in who is to obey what concerning the Law and salvation , lets read on .

26
Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Here we see the works of the Law in play with not only the Apostle of Christ but also Hebrew men around him , purification , offerings , the Temple , all such things as the Law requires .

<a name="009">

I was trained in a place that people call " anti's " , so without aligning myself with any peticular group , which we know is not biblical , I will tell you that there they like to teach " the Law is abolished " , and if we speak in context of justification , indeed it is . But they teach it is abolished in any context having no place in our lives at all . Let us look for scripture that either supports that or denies such .

Romans 3:31 : Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The word " void " used in Greek is " katargeo" , it means abolish , cease , destroy , make void . So we see that the Law is not gone , rather He says " we establish the Law "

In Hebrews 7:12 we see another place where the Law is mentioned , not in past tense , but rather in active use

12:For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Now Brethern we know that no flesh shall be saved by the works of the Law , but we also know that the Law is not abolished , but has place in our walk with the Christ .

in brotherly love , the lowest servant of the Most High God

:rolleyes:
 

richard79408

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Servantfiss, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Yes, God made this new covenant and it is talked about in Jere 31.

However, when the Jews put Jesus on the cross and killed Him--That law the Mosaic law was removed ending the covenant relationship with God.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Now, I am not interested in setting this text off against the ones you used to illustrate that Paul Kept the Law. simply add to the pool of information.

Question is: When did he keep the law that was no longer in force?

Paul knows that the law is not in force--He wrote Romans 7:1-4--making it clear that no one can be married to two laws at the same time.

The Mosaic law was limited to only the Jews--For the Jews to be saved under the New Covenant--not to be married to both at the same time--God removed that law at the cross putting the Jews back under God's Moral law of sin and of death.

Now, we have an advantage in this we have all of the scripture before us to examine--.

Consider the fact that even the Jews of today, right now still hold fast to a law that no longer exists. Consider their consequences if they turn loose of it.
No one then or now could be redeemed under that law--so it went away at the cross.


Did Paul as a Christian keep the law while with the Gentiles? Or, only when with the Jews? Why would that be do you think?

What did Paul say about working with different groups of people?

you can go here and look at that 50 day period

http://rgfheart.com/cov/2/ and choose
50 Days from the Cross to Pentecost What Happens?


We have been unduly influenced by the RCC.

Paul acted like a Jew when among the Jews for a specific reason--to win some.

Man seems to be slow in catching on to the fact that this law was gone--is gone and is going to remain gone.

When you think about the word "new" what comes to mind?

Let me suggest to you the parable of the wineskins..

Richard79408
 

servantfiss

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"Yes, God made this new covenant and it is talked about in Jere 31." , I cant help but notice you didnt adress the fact that this new Covanent is built around His Law .

Col. 2 says nothing about His Law , in context beggining at verse 8 of Col. 2 ( which is where subject matter changes ) , we see these words which set the context for what is spoken of in that area of Col.2

Col.2:8: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ
This passage tells us what the next verses are going to be about , and as you read on you can see it follows that idea .

Col.2:18 :Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col.2:22: Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

We see the direction of the words used of God , He speaks here in Col 2 about rules made by man obviously , so what of verse 14 and these " ordinances " ? They must be from man because (1) context demands it , (2) in verse 15 we read these words ...

Col.2:15:And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Now surely you dont assert that Christ "spoiled principalities and powers" , ( meaning His Heavenly Father ) , and " triumphed " over Him in it ?

"Question is: When did he keep the law that was no longer in force?" I have already posted the scripture containing that .

You said "Paul knows that the law is not in force", verse 1 tells us differantly

Rom.7:1:Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? <a name="012">
7:12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

In short these passages speak once again of justification , and we know we are not saved by the Law

The rest of what you wrote are opinions , questions about things which are not written in the book , to which I will not enter into discussion , for that would be outside the boundries of His will .
 

richard79408

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servantfiss, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

you said--"Yes, God made this new covenant and it is talked about in Jere 31." , I cant help but notice you didnt adress the fact that this new Covanent is built around His Law .

My response--but I did but one part of this is my fault, I made an assumption that you would read or know the text in Jer31. And, that you would think about new--not keeping the old.

Let me correct that--

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The new covenant is set in contrast--against the covenant given at Mt. Sinai.
So, at the very beginning of your response--you are mistaken.
The absolute and total fact is that the new covenant is not going to be built upon the old Mosaic law.

I may or may not get to the rest of this--but there is a more accurate translation of Col 2.

But I wanted to respond to the first part while I have the time now.

Richard79408
 

0bed

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The New Covenant is with regard to the salvation of mankind when Christ became the Paschal Lamb. As "the Lamb of God" Jesus redeemed all those, past, present and future who believe in Him whether Jew or Gentile by the shedding of His own precious blood in a once for all time sacrifice thus fulfilling the law that had previously, under the old law, required sacrifice.

Luke 22:19 "And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying,“This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Remember though the law that was received on Mt. Sinai still stands, it is the promise that God made for the salvation of His people which is the New Covenant (promise). We are no longer saved by works, salvation is by the Grace of God which is a free gift to all those who believe, like Abraham, and accept Him as their Saviour in faith.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.