Do We as Christians Keep the Mosaic Law?

[richard79408]

Veteran, greetings in Christ frm sunny Texas,

Actually, you are incorrect--but far be it from me to point out that I have and am using the scriptures to prove the texts are correct. That Website is basically for Marriages, Divorces and Remarriages not being Adultery. Understanding God's Moral law is important to both studies.


Now, if you can stop acting like an immature adult who is not getting their way--we can all learn some things.

Well, since we have learned that there is no man in the moon--I do Itknow a few things about God's laws and God's covenants. I know enough to not mix the laws of the covenants and take what God gave only to the Jews--and attempt to make them apply to everyone today.

Now, someone is working on a website for understanding covenants--which will be available over time. It takes time for some of this to sink in--so go on with life--We are just now beginning to throw off the yoke of the RCC.

Richard79408

 

[RichardBurger]

Veteran, greetings in Christ frm sunny Texas,

Actually, you are incorrect--but far be it from me to point out that I have and am using the scriptures to prove the texts are correct. That Website is basically for Marriages, Divorces and Remarriages not being Adultery. Understanding God's Moral law is important to both studies.


Now, if you can stop acting like an immature adult who is not getting their way--we can all learn some things.

Well, since we have learned that there is no man in the moon--I do Itknow a few things about God's laws and God's covenants. I know enough to not mix the laws of the covenants and take what God gave only to the Jews--and attempt to make them apply to everyone today.

Now, someone is working on a website for understanding covenants--which will be available over time. It takes time for some of this to sink in--so go on with life--We are just now beginning to throw off the yoke of the RCC.

Richard79408

Don't let Veteran bother you. I have been discussing the gospel with him for over a year and he will not see it.

You are right, the endoctination of the RCC is very strong and man is very religious. In all religions of man, including the RCC, it is about what man does for the god of their imagination.

Under grace (Paul's gospel) it is all about what God has done for man and if you believe it, put your faith in it, He will save you. If you don't then you are ignoring the shed blood of His Son; the work of God.

 

[veteran]

Don't let Veteran bother you. I have been discussing the gospel with him for over a year and he will not see it.

Now that is a blatant FALSEHOOD!

What you've been TRYING to discuss on this Forum, WITHOUT SUCCESS, is the false idea of a DOUBLE-GOSPEL, TWO SEPARATE GOSPELS, one for Israel and another for Gentiles!

God's Word ONLY declares ONE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, and it is for BOTH believing Israel and believing Gentiles, as ONE BODY in CHRIST JESUS.

You are right, the endoctination of the RCC is very strong and man is very religious. In all religions of man, including the RCC, it is about what man does for the god of their imagination.

And you're BOTH terribly wrong, especially about me; which only shows further what I said that neither of you have a clue as to what you're talking about. I'm a Protestant Christian, never been associated with the RCC. And not everything the RCC teaches is wrong anyway.

Under grace (Paul's gospel) it is all about what God has done for man and if you believe it, put your faith in it, He will save you. If you don't then you are ignoring the shed blood of His Son; the work of God.

That's an utterly ignorant statement, especially in light of what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Tim.1, Gal.5, and 1 Cor.6 about God's laws, and even including Rom.7.

The idea BOTH of you are actually pushing is the 'idea of lawlessness', a working of the Devil himself.


Matt 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(KJV)


You BOTH would do well to heed what our Lord Jesus said there. Oh, wait, that's right, neither of you care about what our Lord Jesus said there, because Paul is your 'saviour', not Jesus Christ! Yal only follow what Paul says, and not what our Lord Jesus says.

 

[richard79408]

Veteran greetings in Christ from sunny and very windy Texas,

My observation Veteran--is that you do not read very well and make hugh leaps that you ought not to make about what you read.
First and foremost--If you are a prodestent Christian--then you have been and still are being influnced by the RCC. I find it interesting that you are not interested in knowing about this.

In some ways, you are very typical of the responses that I get in the beginning from some folks concerning the end of the Mosaic law. This is not to fault you in any way.
But you are just reacting and not thinking things through and you are not asking questions about the things you do not understand or that trouble you.
First and foremost--like it or not--Jesus Christ is and always will be the Jewish Messiah. And, because He is, the Gentiles can be redeemed under the New Covenant--that includes all people.

You would profit from studying the scriptures with a view of how God is going to redeem all mankind--beginning in the garden forward.
And, your statements here are not worthy of you--you are more like a bull in a china shop that sees red.

Yes, God removed the Mosaic law at the cross--He had to--YOu don't seem to get it--But God cared for His people the Jews even when they are lost.--

God did not want let's see let me use a word out of society today that perhaps is not as accurate but does define what is going on.
That is, God did not intend for the Jews to committ bigmy--because they cannot be married to both of God's laws [1]The Mosaic law [2]
The New Covenant law of Christ. Roans 7:1-4.

Practically--you need to rethink your mind picture of the demise of the Mosaic law.

Tell you what--If you are a coffee drinker--get a cup and then sit down and really consider--these texts..

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
I believe that Romans 7:12 is truthful, don't you?

I also believe that verse 13 is just as truthful--so do you really believe that God--who through Paul tells these folks that while the law is good--yet it brings on death to people. That law God wants to keep when He makes everything new?

You see, while the Mosaic law ends at the cross--the Jews who were lost prior to this event--are still lost--lost their covenantwith God at the cross.

So, on the day of Pentecost--they are free to marry Christ by obeying the gospel of Christ..

And, pray tell me--Which part of the New Covenant is not from Jesus Christ? I cannot find any--well there is one time where Paul seems to speak by something other than this..but even so it is based on Christ.

All authority well--look at just a few translations here

(ASV) And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
(BBE) And Jesus came to them and said, All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
(Bishops) And Iesus came, and spake vnto the, saying: All power is geuen vnto me in heauen and in earth.
(CEV) Jesus came to them and said: I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth!
(CJB) Yeshua came and talked with them. He said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
(Darby) And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth.
(EMTV) And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
(ERV) So he came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me.
(ESV) And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
(Geneva) And Iesus came, and spake vnto them, saying, All power is giuen vnto me, in heauen, and in earth.
Is not the authority or power of Jesus present in the New Covenant?
Richard79408

 

[veteran]

Veteran greetings in Christ from sunny and very windy Texas,

My observation Veteran--is that you do not read very well and make hugh leaps that you ought not to make about what you read.
First and foremost--If you are a prodestent Christian--then you have been and still are being influnced by the RCC. I find it interesting that you are not interested in knowing about this.

You still don't know what you're talking about. The doctrines of the early Church (1st - 2nd century) existed long before... the RCC ever did. My remark of being a Protestant Christian was to declare to you how I was never associated with the RCC like you and Richard FALSLEY ACUSSED ME OF. It does not mean I align personally with every single idea that the Protestant Churches have! Got to use your brain if you want to have a valid conversation with me.

In some ways, you are very typical of the responses that I get in the beginning from some folks concerning the end of the Mosaic law. This is not to fault you in any way.
But you are just reacting and not thinking things through and you are not asking questions about the things you do not understand or that trouble you.

You have not the authority, nor enough knowledge about me, to even try to make such a statement as that. That reveals what kind of character you have.

First and foremost--like it or not--Jesus Christ is and always will be the Jewish Messiah. And, because He is, the Gentiles can be redeemed under the New Covenant--that includes all people.

Need to tell your friend Richard Burger about that then, because the false doctrine he's on orginated with Marcion of the 2nd century that did not recognize The God of Israel in connection with Jesus Christ of The New Testament. That's where the 'Pauline' doctrine originated, which so far, it appears you are of that 'Pauline' ilk also.

Where have I EVER REFUSED CHRIST JESUS as GOD's Promised SAVIOUR? You'll never find me rejecting that idea anywhere in my posts! Not only is Jesus of Nazareth The Christ, God's promised Saviour of The Old Testament prophets, but Jesus Christ is ALSO 'Immanuel' which means 'with us is GOD'. Jesus Christ is GOD (Matt.1:23).

What? Do you think I'm Jewish? just because as a Protestant Christian I recognize that my Lord Jesus Christ did NOT nail all of God's laws upon His cross??? You're thinking that, like I said before, reveals you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about concerning God's laws and His Covenants. A bit of study in the early Church fathers, and early Christian history, including in the early American colonies, would fill that huge gap in your understanding!

You would profit from studying the scriptures with a view of how God is going to redeem all mankind--beginning in the garden forward.
And, your statements here are not worthy of you--you are more like a bull in a china shop that sees red.

What you're actually feeling is the Sword of The Spirit in me from my Lord Jesus Christ! And it ain't misdirected either!

That false idea that EVERYONE is going to be saved is a blatant lie from false prophets. It goes directly against what Christ Jesus and His Apostles proclaimed about the destruction of the wicked, even within Christ's Book of Revelation, specifically Revelation 20 about the "lake of fire" event. Too bad that not everyone wants Christ's Salvation, but that's just the way it is. Some are going to keep refusing Christ to their bitter end into that "lake of fire".

The more disconnected you try to get away from the Old Testament prophets, the less you understand The New Testament Books. And YOU have a HUGE disconnect going on in you mind! (A product of Pauline and Marcion's doctrines no doubt).

Yes, God removed the Mosaic law at the cross--He had to--YOu don't seem to get it--But God cared for His people the Jews even when they are lost.--

No, He did not.

Leviticus 19 is where God's commandment to "love thy neighbour as thyself" was first written through Moses. Apostle Paul declared that same commandment as New Covenant Doctrine (Rom.13:9; Gal.5:14). Yet YOU say, all the laws God gave through Moses were removed at Christ's cross?

So now, it's OK to go out and commit murder, rape, theft, incest, perjury, homosexuality, etc., things even Apostle Paul said will keep one who does such out of the Kingdom of Heaven??? (Gal.5; 1 Tim.1; 1 Cor.6).

God did not want let's see let me use a word out of society today that perhaps is not as accurate but does define what is going on.
That is, God did not intend for the Jews to committ bigmy--because they cannot be married to both of God's laws [1]The Mosaic law [2]
The New Covenant law of Christ. Roans 7:1-4.

Recognizing what God's laws are for has NOTHING to do with being married to them, nor as still following the Old Covenant. You should have been able to recognize that with God's commandment to "love thy neighbour as thyself" from Lev.19, which Apostle Paul said sums up the law, not do away with. Or maybe the word 'sum' is new to you as to what it means? Look up the Rom.13:9 phrase "it is briefly comprehended" in the Greek and see what it means.

Practically--you need to rethink your mind picture of the demise of the Mosaic law.

Practically, you need to actually follow what Apostle Paul said about God's laws, instead of trying to act like you do to serve your own selfishness against God's Word. Might want to start with Rom.7:14.

Tell you what--If you are a coffee drinker--get a cup and then sit down and really consider--these texts..

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
I believe that Romans 7:12 is truthful, don't you?

I also believe that verse 13 is just as truthful--so do you really believe that God--who through Paul tells these folks that while the law is good--yet it brings on death to people. That law God wants to keep when He makes everything new?

Why did you SKIP the Rom.7:14 verse, and the verses following it???


Rom 7:14
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(KJV)


Oh, that's why... you skipped that Rom.7:14 verse, because Apostle Paul said, "For we know that the law is spiritual:..."! What did he mean by that? Per the Greek that word "spiritual" means 'ethereal', meaning instituted in HEAVEN where GOD is! That makes sense too, since our Heavenly Father's laws came down... from Heaven through Moses.

Can anyone be saved... by following God's laws? NOPE! We are saved ONLY by Faith on the shed Blood of Jesus Christ upon the cross. That never meant God merely dumped all of His laws into nothingness as if they don't still exist under The New Covenant! Christ Jesus and His Apostle Paul taught that the law is summed up with God's Lev.19 commandment to "love thy neighbor as thyself", which reveals this very fact also. HOW?? It's simply because if we love our neighbour as ourself, then we will NOT be breaking God's laws! It's as simple as that, even as Paul also declared this in Galatians 5.

You see, while the Mosaic law ends at the cross--the Jews who were lost prior to this event--are still lost--lost their covenantwith God at the cross.

So, on the day of Pentecost--they are free to marry Christ by obeying the gospel of Christ..

They lost nothing if they believed on The Saviour Jesus Christ under The New Covenant, and quite a few of them did believe, and do believe, which is actually an understatement for those who understand what happened to the ten lost tribes of Israel after The Gospel went to where they were scattered.

The New Covenant Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy about God's Plan of Salvation by Faith, a Plan He had BEFORE the foundation of the world. That's why those who truly do know all of God's Holy Writ can preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ starting back in THE OLD TESTAMENT BOOKS! Oh, I forgot, you Paulinists don't like that idea! Sorry! Probably won't like what I'm going to say next either... however, The Holy Spirit is directing me...

God's Word is about a PROGRESSIVE Salvation Plan beginning in the Book of Genesis and continuing all the way through... to the end of the Book of Revelation. The FIRST Bible prophecy of God sending His Saviour to die is written in Genesis 3:15. The Book of Jude refers to an old prophecy from Enoch, of Christ's coming with ten thousands of His saints (Jude 1:4). Enoch was the 7th from Adam, so how is it that even Enoch knew about Christ's second coming with His saints? It's because God showed him!! And God also showed many others in Old Testament history, and it's recorded in the Old Testament prophets, even through David as one of God's prophets per Psalms 22!

So this stuff that all of Israel didn't know about Christ The Savior coming to die on the cross is a bunch of malarchy by those who follow the false teachings of Dispensationalism and Marcionism. It's real easy... to recognize those STUCK on Pauline and Marcionism that they don't have a clue about that first written in the Old Testament Books. So it should also be plain to see who it is right here that's in terrible need of much more Bible study, and it ain't me.

And, pray tell me--Which part of the New Covenant is not from Jesus Christ? I cannot find any--well there is one time where Paul seems to speak by something other than this..but even so it is based on Christ.

Who here ever denied The New Covenant is not "from" Jesus Christ??? But it is ALSO from GOD THE FATHER TOO! Got a problem with that idea, that The New Covenant is also from and by our Heavenly Father, The God of Israel per The Old Testament prophets??? It is from GOD The FATHER THROUGH... HIS SON JESUS CHRIST.

 

[richard79408]

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
you said--You still don't know what you're talking about. The doctrines of the early Church (1st - 2nd century) existed long before... the RCC ever did. My remark of being a Protestant Christian was to declare to you how I was never associated with the RCC like you and Richard FALSLEY ACUSSED ME OF. It does not mean I align personally with every single idea that the Protestant Churches have! Got to use your brain if you want to have a valid conversation with me.

My response--Veteran, you have to read just what is stated. I have never accused you of being an RCC. I did however say that as a Prodestent Christian--you have been influnced by their doctrine.
Big Difference--try reading
I had stated to you --
In some ways, you are very typical of the responses that I get in the beginning from some folks concerning the end of the Mosaic law. This is not to fault you in any way.
But you are just reacting and not thinking things through and you are not asking questions about the things you do not understand or that trouble you.

You have not the authority, nor enough knowledge about me, to even try to make such a statement as that. That reveals what kind of character you have.

My observation--No, it means that you are not reading--just reacting.
I have done this type of study for the last 15-18 years long prior to the internet and we were using bb boards.
I can looking back based upon the answers that some give to Covenants--indeed place you where I placed you--that is neither a crime nor a shame. It is an observation of fact based on my studies and inter reactions on the net--
Now this part is true--you are reacting--you still are and what is worse you are not reacting with the Spirit nor with the Word of God.
The scriptures clearly identify the attributes of both--and, you may have forgotten that they are there but they are.
If you do not understand something I have said--you do not ask for clarification--you react with a ton of negatives--that are wasted for the most part.
I said--First and foremost--like it or not--Jesus Christ is and always will be the Jewish Messiah. And, because He is, the Gentiles can be redeemed under the New Covenant--that includes all people.
you said--Where have I EVER REFUSED CHRIST JESUS as GOD's Promised SAVIOUR? You'll never find me rejecting that idea anywhere in my posts! Not only is Jesus of Nazareth The Christ, God's promised Saviour of The Old Testament prophets, but Jesus Christ is ALSO 'Immanuel' which means 'with us is GOD'. Jesus Christ is GOD (Matt.1:23).

Veteran, where did this above come from??? I have not accused you of not believing in God or in Jesus--If we get back on track--THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU--It is however very much about the Mosaic law and the fact is--NO ONE IS UNDER IT TODAY...
I stated--You would profit from studying the scriptures with a view of how God is going to redeem all mankind--beginning in the garden forward.
And, your statements here are not worthy of you--you are more like a bull in a china shop that sees red.
to which you said

What you're actually feeling is the Sword of The Spirit in me from my Lord Jesus Christ! And it ain't misdirected either!
My conclusion--is that I am wrong--that you are not worthy--
Is that what you are telling me????Telling everyone who reads this???
Now, I am again disappointed in you--you continue to say--
That false idea that EVERYONE is going to be saved is a blatant lie from false prophets......{for sake of space}
I am sorry you are floundering--but you are else why bring in stuff that has nothing to do with what we are talking about??
If you want to talk about salvation--start a thread and have at it.
Veteran--when folks disagree with you are you always this uncivil. Is that you believe you can win discussions. Well, if you do you are in the wrong pew.
I stated--Yes, God removed the Mosaic law at the cross--He had to--YOu don't seem to get it--But God cared for His people the Jews even when they are lost.--

To wit you replied
No, He did not.
My response--really--if you believe that then why have you lied to me and are continuing this discussion?
you said
Leviticus 19 is where God's commandment to "love thy neighbour as thyself" was first written through Moses. Apostle Paul declared that same commandment as New Covenant Doctrine (Rom.13:9; Gal.5:14). Yet YOU say, all the laws God gave through Moses were removed at Christ's cross?

So now, it's OK to go out and commit murder, rape, theft, incest, perjury, homosexuality, etc., things even Apostle Paul said will keep one who does such out of the Kingdom of Heaven??? (Gal.5; 1 Tim.1; 1 Cor.6).
My response--I don't have to the scriptures so teach--and while I am sure your opinion is important to you--opinions are not texts, now, are they?
Are you doing this on purpose? this is the 2nd or third time we have covered this--If there is a part you do not understand--let me know and I will recover it--
By the way-- Love yor neighbor existed long prior to the writing of the Mosaic law..
Lev. 19 belongs to the Old Covenant\Old Testament.
Not understanding Adultery or bigmy on the part of Israel without the Mosaic law going away--is most certainly handicapping your responses and any learning curve you may or may not have.
Your continual rantings on who is or who is not saved is totally irrevelat to the discussion--so why keep bringing it up. Start a thread on it if it is that important to you.
Now, why didn't I include Romans 7:14--you are the reason--you are continuing to show an inability to read things as given.
Romans 7:7-12 is not at war--with verse 14--so can you answer the question as given--Do you believe--and evidently you don't due to your misuse of Romans 7:14--do you believe that Romans 7:12-13 are truthful texts?? Yes___ No___ Thanks
I said--
And, pray tell me--Which part of the New Covenant is not from Jesus Christ? I cannot find any--well there is one time where Paul seems to speak by something other than this..but even so it is based on Christ.
To which you asked
Who here ever denied The New Covenant is not "from" Jesus Christ??? But it is ALSO from GOD THE FATHER TOO! Got a problem with that idea, that The New Covenant is also from and by our Heavenly Father, The God of Israel per The Old Testament prophets??? It is from GOD The FATHER THROUGH... HIS SON JESUS CHRIST.
My response--You accused me of such--you really ought to read what you are writing...You have also accused some one named Richard--
Richard 79408

 

[Rach1370]

Okay folks....I feel I have to say that things are just getting too heated. Your doctrinal points seem to be getting lost in anger, confusion and insults. Please remember, that even disagreeing with one another, you are in fact brothers in Christ. So, perhaps act like it and remember that He sees your hearts while you reply...
So, drop the insults, or the thread will have to be locked....there is no edification here at all....

 

[veteran]

Okay folks....I feel I have to say that things are just getting too heated. Your doctrinal points seem to be getting lost in anger, confusion and insults. Please remember, that even disagreeing with one another, you are in fact brothers in Christ. So, perhaps act like it and remember that He sees your hearts while you reply...
So, drop the insults, or the thread will have to be locked....there is no edification here at all....

I am not sorry for what I said to Richard79408, for what he posted is hypocrytical. On one hand he says all of God's laws were done away with by Christ, including the Ten Commandments, and then pretends to be following what Apostle Paul taught, while denying Paul's teaching in 1 Timothy 1; Gal.5; and 1 Cor.6 that shows not all of God's laws are done away with.

 

[richard79408]

Rach, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

My apologies--I just find Veteran a tad bit difficult to communicate with--However, I did think this was more for debate--but I had already decided to continue on without Veteran for a bit. Which is why I waited till this evening to come back--I have always found time in the sun relaxing and calming . This does however give me a standard by which to measure since most debate boards are a little wilder than this. And, I know more than most this difficulty of this subject--since we can only share what we know and have been taught. Iwill work more at widening the knowledge pool on this subject.

thanks for bringing this to our attention

Richard79408

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas We sometimes fail to understand to whom Jesus directed His earthly Ministry toward. It is harder because we live in the 21st century.

The "Last Generation" Of Old Testament Jews In Israel

To understand the teaching of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- before the cross (MMLJBC), we must understand just which people Jesus was teaching the Old Testament law of Moses in these four books. T

he Scriptures of both "Old" and "New" Testaments reveal that Jesus was sent to and came to teach -- not the alien Gentile world -- but only the "last generation" of old covenant Jews in Israel (Matt. 15:24).

After God made his Patriarchal "covenant" with Abraham, he later renewed his covenant with Issac, Jacob and the nation of Israel, for Abraham was considered "the father" of the Jews (Rom. 4:16). Moses became God's lawgiver and and "first prophet" to the "first generation" of old covenant Jews in Israel, and Jesus was God's "final prophet" to the "last generation" of old covenant Jews in Israel.

What Moses "began" -- Christ "ended."

During the glory years of Israel's 1500 year history, she counted millions of covenant children in many "generations" within her boundaries. However, the "last generation" to whom Christ came in MMLJBC -- the "final" remnant of Old Testament Israel numbered only in the thousands. When once Old Testament Israel had been a "united" people, in Jesus' old covenant time she was divided into numerous warring "sects" and "scattered abroad" in the world.

Israel had become politically enslaved; she was dominated religiously by Jewish "sectarian" teachers and their false rabbinical "traditions" and was therefore alienated from God in her covenant and spiritual life. It was this "last generation" described in MMLJBC, that "last generation" of Old Testament Israel that was still under the law of Moses -- that Jesus came to "restore" and "save" under, in and by the old covenant law of Moses.

We need to understand that God had a limited plan and purpose forthe Mosaic law--and this generation would bethe generation to kill the messenger--the Son of the Living God and as a consequence--God removed the Mosaic Covenant from Israel.

Richard79408

 

[Rach1370]

Rach, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

My apologies--I just find Veteran a tad bit difficult to communicate with--However, I did think this was more for debate--but I had already decided to continue on without Veteran for a bit. Which is why I waited till this evening to come back--I have always found time in the sun relaxing and calming . This does however give me a standard by which to measure since most debate boards are a little wilder than this. And, I know more than most this difficulty of this subject--since we can only share what we know and have been taught. Iwill work more at widening the knowledge pool on this subject.

thanks for bringing this to our attention

Richard79408

It can be hard to keep discussion of doctrine separate from personal things...probably because doctrine is so integral to what we hold near our hearts! I certainly find it hard, and have to remind myself to sometimes take a breather before writing...sometimes I am not so successful!
I just find that at some point in a conversation that neither seem to be making headway...that someone just has to be the one to step back and just drop it. It can be hard, because we each want to have the last say...after all, we're right!!
So, yeah, it can be hard, especially when talking about such important issues...but in the end, if we aren't glorifying God and edifying our brothers and sisters in Christ...we really need to realise it might be more about pushing our particular views and agenda's, and we need to stop, and reassess.
But thanks for your reply...catch you around!

 

[brightmorningstar]

None of the OT laws are done away with, Jesus said He didnt change or abolish any. In Christ however there is a new covenant, and in Christ one doesnt follow the OT law. But of course Christ has fulfilled the law and prophets. So for Christians in the new covenant with Christ we follow His teaching which is a fulfillment of the law.

So a common deception is, I often hear an objection to Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 prohibiting same-sex relations, that we dont follow the OT law anymore, yet Levitcus 19:18 says love your neighbour as yourself. What we follow is Christ's teaching which fulfills the law and prophets.

 

[RichardBurger]

None of the OT laws are done away with, Jesus said He didnt change or abolish any. In Christ however there is a new covenant, and in Christ one doesnt follow the OT law. But of course Christ has fulfilled the law and prophets. So for Christians in the new covenant with Christ we follow His teaching which is a fulfillment of the law.

So a common deception is, I often hear an objection to Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 prohibiting same-sex relations, that we dont follow the OT law anymore, yet Levitcus 19:18 says love your neighbour as yourself. What we follow is Christ's teaching which fulfills the law and prophets.

Do you believe that we are no longer under the law? If not then you do not believe the gospel of grace that Paul taught.

Veteran keeps saying that I teach two gospels. What I teach is that one has passed away (the gospel of the kingdom under law) and the gospel of grace that was given to paul by Jesus has replaced it for a time.

The Idea of Two Gospels:

There have been many discussions about the “gospel of the kingdom” and the “gospel of grace.” Most do not agree that there is any difference in them. This writing is my attempt at showing that there is a very big difference.

2 Cor 3:6-18 (NKJ) Paul writing.
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the """new covenant,""" not of the letter (Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation (the Law) had glory, the ministry of righteousness (grace) exceeds much more in glory.
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
What was passing away? According to the above it was "the ministry of condemnation, verse 9 (the law). What was taking its place? According to the above, verse 8, it was "the ministry of the Spirit." Therefore there were two ministries, two gospels. One was passing away (the law that Jesus and the 12 taught) and another was taking its place.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech--
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as ""by"" the Spirit of the Lord.

In the above we see that an old covenant was passing away. Take verse 8 and then look at verses 17 and 18. Men can not “transform themselves” by the choices THEY make and by their own power.

Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. ----- In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began. Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known. Clearly, Peter and Paul proclaimed two different messages.

Many say that Abraham and the Jews were saved by the grace of God in the “”same manner”” as we are in this age. I intend to show that it isn’t true.

It is true that Abraham "believed God" and it was accounted as righteousness before God. Does that mean that Abraham was saved at that moment? Did it mean he was saved by the grace of God and could enter into heaven to be with God? If he were saved at that moment, under the grace of God, he would not have been required to do the works that God had him do later in life. If his later works were required he was not saved by grace. It would have been by works.

We know that the Holy Spirit was not given until after Christ died on the cross. Abraham was not reborn and sealed by the Spirit. If he had been he would not have been required to do any works. If we look in Luke 16:19--- and read the story of the rich man and the tax collector who died we see that Abraham was in a part of Hades with both of them but not in the bad part, but in a separate part Jesus called Paradise from the cross.

Abraham was accounted as righteous but he could not BE righteous until Jesus shed His blood on the cross to pay for his sins in the flesh. No one was ever saved until the sin debt was paid. Salvation was, and is, in the work that Jesus (God) did on the cross. Everything points to Christ. Everything begins and ends with what Jesus did on the cross. To say that salvation came before Christ is to say His death was not necessary.

When we read about Abraham we must consider the whole life he lived, we see that he was required to offer up his son, that he was required to circumcise himself and all the males in his family. God’s relationship with Abraham was modified as time went on and eventually the law was given through Moses. It is clear to me that, although Abraham believed God and it was accounted as righteousness before God, there were works that were added at a later date.

During the dispensation of the Law of Moses a person was righteous before God by having faith in Him and by demonstrating their faith by their works just as Abraham did. This is exactly what James is writing about in James 2. James uses Abraham as an example and the words “justified” by works. James is correct in what he has said. He was preaching the gospel of the kingdom that was under the law.

We can see that Jesus told the Jews to keep the laws of Moses and we can see that the 12 were teaching the same thing. It was the gospel of the kingdom and it was faith plus (+) works. They, the Jews, were to accept Jesus as the Messiah and He would set up His kingdom rule on this earth. But they rejected Jesus and His gospel of the kingdom. This teaching did not change until Paul came on the scene. We can see that, by reading the early chapters of Acts. I believe Acts to be a transitional book.
Paul teaches that Abraham’s faith making him righteous before God was a --- """""foreshadowing""""foreseeing"""beforehand"""would be"""
of the gospel of Grace that was to come (Gal 3:7-9). This means this was to be true in the future.

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, """foreseeing""" that God """would""" justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham """beforehand,""" saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
(NKJ)

Therefore the mystery Paul spoke of was much more than an acceptance of the Gentiles. It was a whole new gospel that was not seen in the O.T. -- Peter acknowledges that the message has changed when he says that the Jews would ""NOW"" be saved in the same manner (way) the Gentiles are, see verse 11 below.

Acts 15:7-11
7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them:"Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
NKJV

The above verse 11 begs the question, in what manner were the Jews saved before???

My only conclusion is that the gospel for the Gentiles is a unique gospel given to Paul for the age of the grace of God. Although it was told to Abraham """beforehand""" it was not ""in effect"" and applied until Jesus died on the cross.

I see that the gospel of faith + works is a gospel that is suited for religion since it requires men to do religious things. I also see that Jesus did not think very highly of man’s religious works.

I see that the gospel of grace is not a religion. It is about a covenant relationship with God in the heart based on belief in God‘s work on the cross. It is a relationship of Father to son. It is a relationship of belief, faith, trust, and confidence in our heavenly Father and His work on the cross. If you have this relationship God does not require anything else.



Now this is what I teach and Veteran knows it. His opinion of what I teach is just that, His opinion.

Richard

 

[richard79408]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
I would for us to reflect on what we know about John the Baptist as the 2nd to last Prophet to Israel and Jesus, the last prophet to Israel.
We we think of these two men we don't often associate them as beng "prophets" but John was and so was Jesus..
John The Baptist Marked The "Last Generation" In Old Testament Israel also remember that MMLJBC means Mat.Mark Luke John before the cross.

The birth of John the baptist in Israel -- God's next-to-last prophet who was to herald the arrival of the Messiah -- marked "the last generation" in Old Testament Israel (Lk. 1).
God chose Mary to become the mother of Jesus (Matt. 1), and through the "virgin birth" the Son of God came into the world (Jn. 1). At the coming of Jesus Christ -- the Jewish Messiah, all of the anticipation, "promises" and "prophecies" of the Mosaical covenant were to be realized. Through the Messiah and his "mission" and ministry described in MMLJBC, all of Israel's old covenant "destiny" was to be "fulfilled" and "finished" -- during and in the lifetime of that "last generation" of Old Testament Israelites.

Just as earlier "prophets" had spoken of the "last days" of Israel's old covenant life (Jer. 31:31-32), Jesus came to "fulfill" all things written of the Messiah's work (Matt. 5:17; Lk. 24:44-45).
He also came to bring an "end" to the law of Moses and the old covenant nation of Israel Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Jesus' generation in Israel was the "last generation" to be raised under the old covenant law of Moses; the last covenant Jews to worship in the temple with heaven's approval, the last of the Levitical priest's work in service and sacrifice, the last feast days of the Passover and Pentecost. As Paul said, Jesus was not only the "fulfillment" promised, but he was also the "end" of the Old Testament Mosaical covenant and law of Moses (Rom. 10:4; Col. 2:14).

That "last generation" in Old Testament Israel marked the "end" of Hebrew old covenant history and genealogy, circumcision, the law of Moses and all of the statutes of the Mosaical religion that had been so important. Israel found her old covenant "fulfillment," completion and "end" in Jesus Christ -- the Messiah. He took away the first (old) covenant that he might establish the second (new)covenant (Heb. 10:9-10).

The "Last Generation" Of Jews In Old Testament Israel Was A Perverse, Faithless, Wicked And Adulterous Generation
One would think that "the last generation" of old covenant Jews in Israel -- a generation that had fifteen centuries of old covenant history and countless experiences with God, would have been ready for the arrival of the Messiah. However, both John the baptist and Jesus said that the "last generation," as many disobedient generations before, was an unfaithful and disobedient old covenant people.

John asked, "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Matt. 3:7).

And Jesus also asked, "Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?" (Lk. 7:31).

Both John and Jesus saw that the "last generation" in Israel was unbelieving, disobedient and unfaithful to the law of Moses, they were unskilled in reading the "signs" of the times and the "fulfillment" of prophecies.

Israel was disobedient in old covenant worship and service -- and therefore unprepared for the most important event in her old covenant history -- the coming of the Messiah. God "prophesied" often through Moses and other prophets of the coming of the Messiah -- the "last prophet" to be sent to Old Testament Israel.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him" (Deut. 18:18-19).

It should be remembered that in MMLJBC, God spoke only to "the last generation of covenant Jews in Israel" by the Messiah -- and only a few heard Jesus. It should be remembered that all of the old covenant teaching of the law of Moses in MMLJBC applied only to the Old Testament Jews in the "last generation" of Israel. None of Jesus teaching in MMLJBC applied to anyone "outside" of Israel -- then or now.

And, I have discovered over time that a lot of folks have never really given a lot of thought to the fact that when Jesus came to earth--Israel was lost.


Richard79408

Brightmorning star, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Perhaps where I differ with you here is with "termonlogy usage"

For sure--the fact that the Jews or Israel--physical israel is not under the Mosaic law. With Veteran--we did not get much further than that.

But because they are not under the Mosaic law--and it is gone but Jesus fullfilled it--then removed it.
It begins here--

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Sometimes it helps to view it Col 2:14 in some other translations

(ASV) having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;
(BBE) Having put an end to the handwriting of the law which was against us, taking it out of the way by nailing it to his cross;
(Bishops) And puttyng out the hande writing of ordinaunces, that was agaynst vs, and that hath he taken out of the way, fastenyng it to his crosse:
(CEV) God wiped out the charges that were against us for disobeying the Law of Moses. He took them away and nailed them to the cross.
(CJB) He wiped away the bill of charges against us. Because of the regulations, it stood as a testimony against us; but he removed it by nailing it to the execution-stake.
(Darby) having effaced the handwriting in ordinances which stood out against us, which was contrary to us, he has taken it also out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;
(DRB) Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross.
(EMTV) having blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross.
(ERV) Because we broke God's laws, we owed a debt--a debt that listed all the rules we failed to follow. But God forgave us of that debt. He took it away and nailed it to the cross.
(ESV) by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
(Geneva) And putting out the hand writing of ordinances that was against vs, which was contrarie to vs, hee euen tooke it out of the way, and fastened it vpon the crosse,
(GNB) he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
And, Jer. does point us to a new covenant--and the examples of many of the parables of Jesus indicate i.e. with the wineskins
that you cannot put the New Covenant in the old Wineskin--Mosaic Covenant.
Richard79408

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas--

Jesus described that "last generation" in Old Testament Israel as perverse and faithless. "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you?" (Lk. 9:41; see also Mk. 9:19).
He described them as a generation of vipers. "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" (Mt. 12:34).

He declared that their hypocritical lives were not acceptable unto God, for they were an "adulterous" and "sign-seeking" generation that had little trust and faith in Jehovah's covenant faithfulness "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas" (Matt. 12:39).

Just as Jonah had been the "sign" of destruction for Nineveh, Jesus was God's "sign" of the "end," destrruction and desolation for Old Testament Israel. "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed" (Matt. 16:4).

Jesus warned the "last generation" in Israel of the danger of being "ashamed" of him and his teaching as the Messiah. "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels" (Mk. 8:38).

He also warned them of the danger of not receiving and confessing him as God's Son -- the Messiah. "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father ... in heaven" (Matt. 10:32 -33).

Jesus warned this "last generation" of Old Testament Jews in Israel of covenant disobedience that would cause God to fully and finally "reject" them as his old covenant people and give his covenant "kingdom" to another people bringing forth "repentance" (Matt. 10:43). This, of course, would have been the New Testament "church of Christ."

Jesus declared that the blood of the slain prophets that God had earlier sent to Israel would be required of "the last generation." "That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation" (Lk. 11:50-51).
He scolded them by stating that the hated alien Gentiles in their spiritual "ignorance" were wiser than old covenant Israel. "And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light" (Lk. 16:8).

Jesus told the "last generation" in Israel that he came not to bring "peace," but a "sword." He came not to unify the Jews in their unfaithfulness, but to separate the "faithful" from the "unfaithful." He declared that a Jew's foes would be those of their own households. He declared that his "last generation" in Israel needed to heed the signs of his time (Matt. 10:34-42).

Jesus warned the "last generation" in Israel that the destruction of the Jewish old covenant temple was near, that his Jewish disciples needed to beware lest they be deceived. He warned that wars and tribulations would continue; and that the unbelieving Jews would hate his disciples (Matt. 24).

He said that this "last generation" would see many false prophets arise (Mk. 13), and they would witness the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel (Dan. 9:27).
"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away" (Mk. 13:30-31).

Richard79408

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas--Here is something we often overlook--
The Use Of Jewish "Pronouns" IN MMLJBC
It becomes crystal clear that Jesus' primary use of "pronouns" such as I, you, your, me, mine, they, them, we, us, man, men, who, whosoever, people, etc. in MMLJBC, were "pronouns" that referred only to the Jews in the "last generation" of Israel,.

Therefore, his use of Jewish "pronouns" in MMLJBC in teaching of the Old Testament law of Moses in these four books "applied" only to the old covenant Jews of Israel. They cannot be scripturally interpreted or applied to anyone else -- then or now.

Consider these examples.
"16But blessed are your (Jewish) eyes, for they see: and your (Jewish) ears, for they hear. 17For verily I say unto you (Jews of Israel), That many prophets and righteous men (of Israel) have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them" (Matt. 13:16-17).
"3The Pharisees (Jews of Israel) also came unto him (Christ, the Jewish Messiah), tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man (of Israel) to put away his wife for every cause (taught by the Jewish rabbis)? " (Matt. 19:3). (All emphasis in above two scriptural quotations is mine,

The words "brother," "brethren," "disciple" and "disciples" in MMLJBC refer only to Old Testament Jews in Israel, they never refer to New Testament "Christians" or "church."
It can be stated with "absolute certainty," that not once did Jesus' use of an old covenant Jewish "pronoun" or "word" ever "personally" refer to a New Testament "Christian" during the time of MMLJBC.


Remember--MMLJBC = Matt--Mark--Luke--John--Before the Cross


Some From The "Last Generation" Of Old Covenant Israel In MMLJBC
Became The "First Generation" Of "Christians" In The New Testament "Church" In Acts 2 Through Revelation 22
When Jesus "finished" his work as the Messiah sent to Israel, Israel's old covenant was "abrogated," "abolished," and "nailed" to the cross (Col. 2:14; 2 Cor. 3);

the temple lost its sanctification (Matt. 27:51);

the Jews lost their old covenant relationship with God, and because of her "unbelief" and "disobedience"

Israel was "cast away" as the old covenant people of God (Rom. 11:15).

This was the one day in history when every Old Testament Jew "lost" his old covenant religion and "access" to God.

Although Christ brought an "end" to the old covenant at the cross (Rom. 10:4), and took the old covenant "kingdom" away from Israel (Rom. 7:4), the earlier "prophets" had declared that he would make a new covenant with some from the old house of Israel and Judah and some among the Gentiles (Jer. 31:31-32).

For even though he came unto his "own" old covenant people, and although his own people (as a whole) received him not, when he closed the old covenant, he opened the new covenant for all Jews who would believe the New Testament "gospel" of his death, burial and resurrection. "But as many as receive him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe in his name" (Jn. 1:11-12).

Jesus told that "last generation" in Israel, ". . .there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the (new covenant, r79408) kingdom of God come with power" (Mk. 9:1). Those Jews in that "last generation" of Old Testament Jews in Israel who ultimately came to believe in Christ and the New Testament "gospel" of his death, burial and resurrection (beginning on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2) were "saved" from their past sins and "added" to the new covenant "church" of Jesus Christ (Mk. 16:15-16; Acts 2:38-47).

The New Testament "gospel" was declared in Acts 2 to be the "power" of salvation in the new covenant (Rom. 1:16-18).
With those Jews who "believed" and "obeyed the gospel," Christ built the first congregation of his new covenant "church-kingdom"in Jerusalem (Matt. 16:18; Acts 8:12).

On the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), the "last generation" of unfaithful old covenant Jews had the opportunity to become the "first generation" of faithful New Testament "Christians" (1 Pet. 2:9).
It was the "end" of fleshly Israel, and the "beginning" of the new spiritual Israel of God in the new covenant "church of Christ" (Rom. 9:1-12:3; Heb. 8:6-13).

Conclusion

Today, because the old Mosaical covenant has been abolished, no 21st century people of Jewish heritage, no new political nation of Jews in the mid-east called "Israel" is still in an old covenant relationship with God.

Today, except all men (Jews and Gentiles) believe the "gospel" of the New Testament, "obey" Christ's new covenant "plan of salvation" in baptism, and serve God "faithfully" in the New Testament "church" -- they will die in their sins.

To understand the Bible, we must study Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- before the cross -- as God's final prophet and message to the "last generation" of old covenant Jews in Israel -- not as God's first message to the people of the New Testament "age."

Let us remember, MMLJBC describe Jesus as God's "last prophet" to Israel -- with Christ's restatement of the true law of Moses in contrast to the false rabbinical "traditions" in "the last generation" of old covenant Israel.

Jesus Christ, the New Testament Savior of the world, "begins" the New Testament "age," the "establishment"of his new covenant "church" and the revelation of New Testament "doctrine" in Acts 2 and concludes in Revelation 22.

Richard79408

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard79408, From what you said you must be a Acts 2 Dispensationalist.

I think I would be called a hyper-dispensationalist by the religious because I Believe the "Church of His body" started when Jesus met Saul on the road to Demascus.

I have asked, many times, for those on this forum, to show me where Jesus and the 12 recinded the Law of Moses in MMLJ. I have asked for them to show me where Jesus and the 12 preached that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross is the basis for salvation under grace; that it reconciled sinful man to God. -- None have discussed this with me. They want to shot the messager.

What I see in MMLJ and the first 8 chapters of Acts is Peter and Stephens trying to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah. There is nothing in MMLJ and the first 8 chapters of Acts that says anything about salvation by faith in the grace of God shown on the cross.

Richard

 

[richard79408]

Richard B, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
Well, what do the texts tell us?
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Now--after the end of MMLJBC--We have Jesus giving instructions to
his future Apostles.
Hmm--let me back up a bit-- and add this--Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Grace and Truth come how? By Jesus Christ. So early in John we have Grace being made known.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ok--back to just after the cross--
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Verse-20--is a great indicator that Faith and Grace did not begin until Saul meets Jesus on the road.
While I suggest a total reading of Acts 1:26-through Acts 2
this one verse is noteworthy=Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
With what the Jews were seeing on Pentecost--we see God beginning then--not later with Saul to pour out His Spirit upon all flesh.
If you can picture the time elaspe from Acts 2--to several years after Paul is converted--When Paul writes to the Romans--He says this about them--
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
The only way that can happen is that they were at Pentecost long prior to Paul's conversion and Grace and truth about Jesus Christ was and had been preached a good time prior to Paul's encounter with Christ on the Road.
Now--you said--There is nothing in MMLJ and the first 8 chapters of Acts that says anything about salvation by faith in the grace of God shown on the cross.

Please note the above again and also think about the fact that Jesus does not teach the new Covenant gospel to any prior to the cross.
That is not true after the cross nor in Acts. And when I read the above statement you make--I immediately thought of the book of Romans...Folks whose faith was known through out the world is getting lessons on the basics--baptism faith, the death of the law and etc.

So, If I am an Acts 2 person I do get by reading the texts and understanding the order of things.
I have one more point to make but this is already way to long.

Richard 79408

Richard B, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas
I have asked, many times, for those on this forum, to show me where Jesus and the 12 recinded the Law of Moses in MMLJ.
My response--If you read the prayer in John 17 very carefully--It is clear that He took the Word the Father Gave to Him and in turn, gave that word to these men--who, in turn in the fullness of time
Act2--gave it to us.
Quite frankly you ask the impossible--and, the opposite of what the texts teach us regarding this.
First--everyone involved is Jewish--second-- the issue that Israel is Lost--separated from their God by Sin--Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Jesus does not teach the Jews any new laws--that was against the law He lived and taughtand died under.
Until He was put on the cross--Even though the Jews were lost--Because they were God's people--God held them accountable to the law they were not keeping.
(ASV) But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(BBE) But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
(Bishops) But he aunswered, and sayde: I am not sent but vnto the lost sheepe of the house of Israel.
(CEV) Jesus said, "I was sent only to the people of Israel! They are like a flock of lost sheep."
(CJB) He said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Isra'el."
(Darby) But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
(DRB) And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep, that are lost of the house of Israel.
(EMTV) But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
(ERV) Jesus answered, "God sent me only to the lost people of Israel."
(ESV) He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
They were not lost at this time from the New Covenant--Blood not yet shed and the will has not yet been probated. They were lost because they were not keeping the Law.
When you read Jesus time and time again He takes their scribal law with their some 611 man made laws that they believed was frm God and fought them to return to the original law given at Mt. sinai.
The truth is here--That they did not that is Jesus nor His apostles could teach anythingbut the Mosaic law or by Mosaic law be put to death..
you said
I have asked for them to show me where Jesus and the 12 preached that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross is the basis for salvation under grace; that it reconciled sinful man to God. -- None have discussed this with me. They want to shot the messager.

My suggestion is to rephase the question in order that folks will consider responding to it.

Now on Pentecost--filled with the HS of God yes, they do so teach that they were lost--as lost believers--Acts 2:37 they asked as lost believers what they needed to do--

Peter speaking under the inspiritation of the HS--tells them and the New Covenant begins that day with about 3,000.

Richard79408

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard79408, I do not believe the so called "great Commission" is for those under grace and the followin supports my belief.

Is the Great Commission for today??

The Great Commission is not what Paul preached. The Great Commission was given to the Jewish Apostles for the church of the kingdom. Paul was sent with the gospel message of God's grace. Under the gospel of God's grace a person does not have to work (do anything) for salvation. God has done everything that is necessary for their salvation.

It should also be noted that in the Great Commission, not one word is mentioned about the cross. But the cross is the foundation of the Grace Commission.

QUESTION: Where, in the scriptures, do we find the "GREAT COMMISSION" that was given to the TWELVE "BEING SUSPENDED?"

This is a good question. Most churches today operate under the Great Commission. They believe there has been no interruption of the Great Commission from the time it was given until this day. But in fact, its suspension was recognized at the Jerusalem Council.

In Galatians 2, Paul explains why he had a meeting with the remainder of the Twelve Apostles. In Galatians 2:7-9 (NKJV) we read,
7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),
9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.
“But contrariwise, when they [Apostles] saw that the gospel of the un-circumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter.” Think about it, if there was no difference in these gospels then why indicate that there is? Why was this statement worded this way?

Un-circumcision means those who were not a part of the Jewish program. Circumcision was a Jewish ritual. Paul is talking about a message that does not include rituals, does not include the law, the keeping of the law, and all of the other ordinances that went along with it including the ritual of water cleansing (baptism).

Paul speaking; “When they saw that the gospel of the un-circumcision (Gentiles) was committed unto me [Paul], as the gospel of the circumcision (the Jews) was committed unto Peter: (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

BUT HOW CAN THEY DO THAT? At least two of these men were right there when the Lord told them to go into all the world beginning in Jerusalem, and Judea, and Samara, and then unto the uttermost part of the earth. How could Peter and John who were standing with the Lord when He said they were to go into all the world, now suddenly say, “We won’t go to the Gentile nations anymore. Paul, you do that. We will go to the circumcision.” How can they do that? They can do it because God revealed something new to them. He revealed that God has begun a new program in order to bring salvation to the Gentile nations. It was NOT going to be according to the Great Commission Jesus had given them. It included a different message.

Acts 11:19
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
NKJV It was the Jews who were scattered.

Not only was the responsibility being transferred to a new apostle, (the Apostle Paul), but a new message was being committed to him as well. So the answer to the question, “Where is the Great Commission suspended?” is right here in Galatians 2:9 - where the remainder of the Twelve Apostles recognize that God has given a new ministry, and a new message to Paul. It was no longer their task to go to the Gentile nations anymore and they stopped at that point. Paul and the new program took over with the Gospel of the Grace of God.

With that background we will now go back and look at the various accounts of the Great Commission and see that it cannot be carried out today, at least not the way the Lord told them to do it. Matthew 28:18 says, “And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

Many people try to carry out these instructions; yet they cannot and still be scriptural in this dispensation of Grace. Why is this? Because for one thing - to carry out the Great Commission, as recorded here, means you must bind your followers to the Law of Moses. Some will ask, “where does it say that?” Notice the first part of verse 20, “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” Did the Lord Jesus Christ ever command his disciples to be subject to the Law of Moses? YES HE DID In Matthew 23:1-3 we read, “Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.” This is the seat of the Law, the authority of the Law. “All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” Our Lord commanded His disciples to be subject to the Law of Moses. Now as He commissions them to take the kingdom gospel to the world, He says to teach them to observe all things He commanded them. What a contrast to Paul’s later teaching that we are “not under the law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14b).

Another area in which some try to do, but it does not work very well, is the Lord’s teaching to sell everything they had and to give it to the poor. He taught that on more than one occasion (See Matthew 19:21 & Luke 12:33). Did they teach those that they reached to do the same thing? They certainly did! Read Acts 2 and 4 where the early disciples of the twelve sold everything they had and they laid the money at the apostles' feet. The Apostle Paul never tells us to do that. He tells us to be careful not to trust in riches, but he never tells us that we are to sell everything we have and bring it to the apostles' feet. Which apostles would we take it to anyway?

Keeping the Commission of Matthew 28 would require keeping the Law, selling everything you have and laying it at the apostles’ feet. Obviously, these are things we cannot do if we are going to try to keep that Kingdom Commission. A more controversial passage, and one that is quoted most often, is Mark, 16:15, “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”

Usually this is all you ever hear quoted of the Great Commission. This part sounds wonderful. Of course, we should do that. But the details that the Lord tells them are simply not compatible with the Dispensation of Grace. This is a Kingdom commission. Verse 16 says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Where do people get the idea that water baptism will save them? Right here in this verse.

According to this commission, water baptism was required along with their faith. Does this mean that the water saved them? No. But it was an act of obedience which demonstrated their faith and if they did not do it, it only showed they did not have faith. Some people will tell you this is true today. But the Apostle Paul is clear:

Ephesians 2:8, 9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration.” There was a time when water baptism was a requirement in God’s program. This is not the case today.

Mark 16:17, “And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils...” This is a kingdom sign. What will happen to the devil in the kingdom? He will be cast out for 1,000 years. “They shall speak with new tongues...” What language will people speak in the kingdom? The Bible says God will give them a pure language (Zephaniah 3:9). Everyone will be able to speak the same language once again someday. God gave a gift to these people to illustrate the kingdom. That is not the case today.

“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them.” People today try this and many times end up six feet under. This is not a commission for today. “They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” We will discuss the question of healing later, but for now let us affirm that God can heal, but He is not obligated to do so.

Luke 24:47, “Beginning in Jerusalem...” and Acts 1:8, “...in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Many people will spiritualize this passage and say this means to start in your own hometown. For us, they say, the Great Commission is to start in your hometown, then your county, and then your state, and then the United States, and so forth. Is this what the Lord was saying? Of course not! First of all, Jerusalem was not the hometown of many of these disciples. He was telling them to start in Jerusalem because Jerusalem was to be the capital city of the earth, of the Kingdom program. But the Jews rejected the Kingdom program. If the capital city does not believe, what good is it going on from there?

Are we to begin in Jerusalem today? II Corinthians 5 says we are ambassadors for Christ. We are already in a foreign land. We are already missionaries right where we are. We may go wherever the Lord opens a door, but it does not have to begin in Jerusalem.

The fourth and one of the most neglected references of the Great Commission is John 20. In this account, we find that Christ entrusts the forgiveness of sins to human mediators. John 20:19-23 says, “Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained.”

Again, we remind you, in this dispensation, forgiveness is not committed to men. There is one mediator between God and men, the Apostle Paul says, the man Christ Jesus (I Timothy 2:5). But at that time, under the Kingdom commission, God committed the authority to forgive sins to the disciples. Does this mean they had the power in and of themselves? Of course not! But they did have the authority. This is something we do not have today. God has not entrusted this to men today. But it was a part of the Great Commission.

The Great Commission was Jewish, it was a Kingdom Commission, but it is not our commission today. Upon hearing this, many will ask, “Does this mean you do not believe in missions? Does this mean you do not believe in getting the gospel out?” Of course not! We do believe in a commission, but not the one given to the Twelve.

That one has been suspended. God has given us another commission and it is tragically the most neglected commission in all the Scriptures. We have a two-fold commission.

Paul says in I Timothy 2:4 that God “will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” Those are the two things that God wants to accomplish in this Dispensation of the Grace of God. He wants all men to be saved and He wants everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth. What does this entail? In II Corinthians 5:18, 19 we find the ministry of reconciliation. Verse 18 “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.”

What’s that? Verse 19 “To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

The message of reconciliation is simply that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. When Christ came to this earth, died for our sins, was buried and rose again, He paid the entire price of our sin. In so doing, He reconciled the world. That does not mean that the whole world is saved. It simply means that the world is savable. This is the Divine part. Now our part is to preach the word of reconciliation, which says, now you must be reconciled to God. God reconciled the world. That is something we could not do. We could not pay for our own sins. We could not take care of our own sin problem. Now He says to be reconciled to God. How do we do that? By believing in what God has done for us through Christ. The ministry of reconciliation is the first part of our commission.

The second part is in Ephesians 3:9. Once a person is saved, then, God wants him/her to understand the fellowship of the mystery. In verse 9, Paul says, “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery.” Literally, in the Greek (Majority Text), it is “dispensation of the mystery”, “...which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.” What is the fellowship or the dispensation of the mystery? It involves the fact that God revealed a new message through the Apostle Paul that had not been revealed to the prophets and had not been told to the Twelve. It was first committed to Paul. And God wants everyone to know about it. This is part of our job. We are asked why we make such an emphasis of the mystery, of the Grace message committed to the Apostle Paul? It is because it is our job. God has told us to do it. If we are not doing it, we are disobedient children. ---- Most, today, will not see the words of Paul when he said, "which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Many today have been laboring under the commission given to the Twelve. We might commend them for doing something, yet they have been unfaithful servants if they are not doing what God has told us to do in this Dispensation of Grace. I pray that you will not be an unfaithful servant, but that you will carry out God’s commission to us.
I think this was written by “BigD” a previous poster on the C.A.R.M. forum and posted by permission even though it was not copyrighted.

 

[richard79408]

Richard B, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Hmmm. Question--Have you ever worked in a foundry? Long time ago in a far away time--I did.
I would take a pattern put it in sand and make moulds in which to pour the hot metal. If everything went well--everytime the mold produced the same exact thing.

Now-- you are way off base in being in harmony with the teachings of the texts here. In fact so far off I am not quite sure where to begin.

However, when I read this--one thought leaped to the forefront of my mind--it was this verse-- Well allow me to put this verse in context--

First and foremost--It was a Jew--Peter {NOT PAUL}by name that is responsible for the Gentiles being added to the same foundation as the jews belonged to in Christ.

Paul may have been sent--but God through Peter has already established salvation among the Gentiles--in Acts 10 and 11.

It was not easy for Peter to go to the Gentiles and He took six other Jewish men with him--and there was a reason for that.

Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Act 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
Act 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Act 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
Act 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
Act 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

I have to tell you Richard B, I am with Peter here--It is the same message of salvation to both the Jews and the Gentiles.

Nor do I believe and it is implied from your post--though you may not of thought about it--That you are saying God did not know what God was doing--Or, that God under the New Covenant is a respector of persons.

It goes back to the foundry thing--God established the mould of salvation for everyone equally--Not one for the Jews and another for the Gentiles.

Let's look at Paul for a second or two.
Act 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Now--back to Rome--What does Paul say about the Romans?

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
These were Jews at Jerusalem at Pentecost who being converted went back to Rome and began to preach the gospel they knew--And, there are a lot of Gentiles in the Roman Church when Paul writes to them.

Yes, Paul tells them, the Romans that they are under Grace..but Paul did not leave us in the dark about how they got there--They heard and obeyed the same message as given on Pentecost--

Once Covenant law is given--God does not change it for anyone and what does Paul say about what you currently believe Paul did?

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
When we read Paul He tells us about the mystery and what it is--

My parents when they were alive--bought some land and built a 23 acre cherry Orchard. I understand grafting a little better than some might and perhaps more than you--I just don't know.

But I know this you are really going to have more than a few problems with this thinking--
My suspicion is that this is getting off topic--and since I am interested in a better understanding of covenants--I am going to move back in that direction.
Richard 79408

 

[goodshepard55]

Why do people make the font bigger and bold when posting? Curious because to me it means trying to get a point across or like yelling..I simply ignore the post...so just asking why people do it..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why do people make the font bigger and bold when posting? Curious because to me it means trying to get a point across or like yelling..I simply ignore the post...so just asking why people do it..

Me too. I ignore such posts because they are hard to read. It may be though that they do it because they have poor vision, and big letters are easier to read.

 

[veteran]

Do you believe that we are no longer under the law? If not then you do not believe the gospel of grace that Paul taught.

Veteran keeps saying that I teach two gospels. What I teach is that one has passed away (the gospel of the kingdom under law) and the gospel of grace that was given to paul by Jesus has replaced it for a time.

You do, and it is not difficult to prove.

The Idea of Two Gospels:

There have been many discussions about the “gospel of the kingdom” and the “gospel of grace.” Most do not agree that there is any difference in them. This writing is my attempt at showing that there is a very big difference.

God's Word does not show a difference between them, and that's the first proof of how you are wrong. The following Scriptures by Apostle Paul shows that he preached the gospel of the kingdom that Christ Jesus and all the Apostles preached...

2 Tim 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom;
(KJV)

II Th 1:5
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
(KJV)

Col 1:12-14
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son:
14 In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(KJV)

Eph 5:5
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
(KJV)

Rom 14:17-18
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
(KJV)

Acts 28:30-31
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
(KJV)

That Scripture evidence doesn't align with the false doctrine of two different gospels that you're on, so you simply choose to discard it so you can keep your own tradition instead.

The KJV of the 2 Cor.6 Scripture you posted...

2 Cor 3:6-18
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

The administration of death per the Old Covenant was NOT... The Gospel, not even 'a' gospel; that's where you're grossly deceived by those who have taught you to wrongly think it was 'a' gospel, wrongly calling it the 'gospel of the kingdom'.

Paul was not talking about The Gospel when pointing to Moses and the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was an administration of death, because no one could be saved by it, nor follow it. It was destined to be done away. It's purpose was only to POINT... to The Gospel of Jesus Christ per His New Covenant which can... save.

Paul is merely saying that if the Old Covenant written in stone was glorious in its day, simply because it was above and beyond the ability of the children of Israel to follow it, then how much MORE... glorious will the administration of The Spirit be?


9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

There's the idea. If the condemning that the Old Covenant did revealed a glory beyond man's ability to keep anf follow it, much more does the administration of righteousness of the New Covenant exceed it in glory.


10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

Paul's merely saying that the glory of the Old Covenant could never compare to the glory of the New Covenant that far excells it. It would be like trying to compare common gravel to our Heavenly Father and His Righteousness. No comparison.


11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The KJV grammar says "is done away", not in the act of still passing away. Paul's saying that if what has passed away (Old Covenant) was glorious, how much more glorious is that (New Covenant) which remains, even forever?


12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Paul makes this very plain. The Old Covenat IS... abolished, and it was ordained to be abolished anyway, when it was time for Christ's coming to die on the cross and bring His New Covenant through His Blood. Just as the children of Israel in Moses' day were blinded to the purpose of that Old Covenant to point the way to Christ Jesus, likewise they are blinded to the purpose for The New Covenat, until... they come to Christ Jesus, and that vail is done away. That vail is done away for Christ's Church already today, and has been since Jesus died on the cross. The Old Covenant is no more, even among the Jews who stilll refuse Christ Jesus, for their ability to practice it ended soon after Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.

The "old testament" phrase Paul uses is the Old Covenant, not the Old Testament Books of God's Word. There's a major difference between the two. Much written in the Old Testament Books has still yet to come to pass, and involves Scripture about Christ's future second coming and reign, and the establishing of His everlasting Kingdom on earth.


15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Even now, when the Jews that refuse Christ Jesus read from the Books of Moses, they still 'see' it per the Old Covenant system that was done away. But if they turn to Jesus Christ, that vail is removed.


17 Now the Lord is That Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(KJV)

Paul is speaking of the "new creature" state with that; it's about the redemption of our bodies by our Lord Jesus at His return, and His gathering us to Him. Paul taught about that change to the "spiritual body" on that day in 1 Corinthians 15, so he's pointing us back to that Message in this verse. By that he's still talking about the future glory of the administration of The Spirit in final, when our Lord Jesus returns and manifests His Kingdom on this earth.

Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. ----- In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began. Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known. Clearly, Peter and Paul proclaimed two different messages.

Let's see exactly what Peter said, and also what Paul said in those Scriptures...


Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all His prophets, that Christ should suffer, He hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, 'A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.'
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, 'And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.'
26 Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
(KJV)

Peter is rebuking the unbelieving Jews; they had gone into the temple and The Holy Spirit through them had healed a lame man, which caused the Jews to question their authority by doing such. Peter then gave a rebuke to those Jews in the temple of how they had denied Christ Jesus and had Him crucified, and how God had written about it through all His OT prophets. And how God had sent Christ to them first at Jerusalem to lead Israel away from iniquity. As Peter and John continued to speak, including about Christ's resurrection, 5,000 that were present who heard then believed on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Saviour (Acts 4).


Rom 16:25-26
25 Now to Him That is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(KJV)

Do you think those 5,000 of the Jews of Acts 4 that believed on Jesus Christ by Peter and John's preaching of The Gospel began to understand what Paul said there? I guarantee you, they did. Richard of course had jumped... way past many New Testament Scriptures involving believing Jews on Jesus Christ that made up part of the early Church in the days of the Apostles. A whole lot... of that is covering later on in the Book of Acts! When one gets to Paul's Epistles, their inclusion among all the Churches Paul was overseer continues, both believing Israelite and believing Gentile as ONE BODY in Christ Jesus. Apostle Paul even proclaimed that One Body in Christ for both...


1 Cor 12:12-13
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(KJV)

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(KJV)

Eph 3:1-6
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
(KJV)

There's the mystery Paul was talking about; it's that the Gentiles who believe on Jesus Christ should be made "fellowheirs, and of the same body". Same body with WHOM? With believing ISRAEL!!!

Thus Apostle Paul's 'gospel' was not about any separation of the One Gospel of Jesus Christ to BOTH, believing Israelites and believing Gentiles as ONE BODY.

The Gospel Paul preached was the SAME Gospel also preached to Israel.


But the false prophets who have suckered those like Richard, they're trying to teach that a different Gospel was preached to Israel than what Paul preached to Gentiles. That of course is a... LIE.

And Richard gave us a major proof of that LIE within his post, because he's treating the 'gospel of the kingdom' phrase like it meant the Old Covenant!!!

In reality per God's Word, the Old Covenant was NOT the Gospel of God's Kingdom, for how can something that was done away abolish God's coming Kingdom under Jesus Christ??? That should be VERY simple to understand for anyone that's done only moderate study in God's Word. What Richard has been preaching here on this Forum is a blasphemous doctrine that tries to separate Christ's Body of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile. So I'm amazed why he still has not yet been banned from this forum.