Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
Here is some information on who Israel is or is not--enjoy
Let's begin with Romans--Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
This is the theme of Romans and is such throughout the book. It has to be kept running along side Romans 9-11
What is this passage saying? That the gospel is "now", in this age and it is the power of God to do what? To save both the Jew, the Israelite and the Gentiles who believe in it. It is the same message "then" and "now" it will save both the Jews and the Gentiles who choose to obey it today. Keep this firmly in mind when we get to romans 9-11.
No problems there.
Questions to ponder:
[1] Does the Bible teach that God still has a plan and purpose for the nation of Israel which is different from His plan for the church?
YES. God promised David and Jerusalem that He would always leave "one tribe" at Jerusalem for His servant David's and Jerusalem's sake (1 Kings 11). There are certain Promises still in effect today specifically for the descendents of Israel in 2 parts; one set for the seed of the "house of Judah" (Jews), and another set for the seed of Israel of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes).
If you live in the Christian West, i.e., the first historical nations to accept The Gospel of Jesus Christ on earth, then you are living under the promises specifically given through believers on Christ of the "house of Israel". That's where the majority of the seed of the ten tribes migrated to, and there exists enough archaeological and literature proof of it. Even the Scots in their Declaration of Abroath of 1320 admitted their heritage from old Israel. But of course, men's old bottle traditions are not going to allow you to understand that part of prophecy in God's Word.
[2] Does the bible teach that the promises made to Israel in the Old Testament find fulfillment in Spiritual Israel?
Yes. Specifically among the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) under Ephraim who was to become literally,
"a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). That's where God's Birthright promises went to in final, and still remain today, and why it involves Christ's Church established in those western Christian nations of history, where the majority of the ten tribes migrated to.
[3] Does the Bible equate Israel and the church?
YEP! Paul specifically did that in Ephesians 2 when speaking of how believing Gentiles were once strangers from God's covenants of promise, but now through Christ Jesus are brought into those promises to Israel, and labeling that
"the commonwealth of Israel". The name Israel is a name associated with God's Salvation Plan through Jesus Christ, for that's the name He gave to Jacob to represent His Salvation and Birthright promises first given to Abraham. God's Birthright promises first to Abraham then continued through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and then Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh (1 Chronicles 5). That's why all those of Faith are called "the children of Abraham" by Apostle Paul in Galatians 3. The Salvation Promise by Faith was given to Abraham first, 430 years prior to the Old Covenant and law. When our Lord Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, He fulfilled that Promise by Faith first written of in the Old Testament Books. We as believing Gentiles have been INCLUDED... in that Promise along with faithful Israel.
The confusion about that name Israel today is with the descendents of old Israel that now only exist as the "house of Judah" (Jews). After the split of old Israel per 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 18, Judah (Jews) were the only ones of old Israel that did not lose their heritage as part of the original nation of Israel. Since the ten tribed kingdom of the "house of Israel" was separated from Judah and the ten tribes lost to the world (but not to God), Judah has not been contested on that name Israel. And since the majority of Judah still refuse Christ Jesus today, they naturally think that name Israel is only about them as seed descendents.
The greater mystery in God's Word about the name Israel is how He scattered the ten tribes who were the owners of the name 'Israel' after Solomon's days, and how God caused those ten tribes to become as Gentiles, living among the Gentiles. And when Christ came to die on the cross, The Gospel was received by the remnants of the ten tribes that migrated westward to Asia Minor and Europe from their Assyrian captivity. So together, the ten tribes of Israel and Gentiles they migrated among, both became Christ's Church in The Gospel, and thus the manifesting of God's prophecy about Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations", the western Christian nations of history. From there per Christian history, The Gospel would then go to all nations and peoples, and all who believe on Jesus together become one Body under Christ Jesus. And we all together will be established as God's Israel in the holy lands of promise under Christ Jesus at His second coming.
Remember, from the influence of the pre mill and or pre mill dispen folks are influencing a lot of people today i.e. that ethnic Israel continues to be God"s special people.
Doesn't matter who's saying it. What matters is whether or not it's true per God's Holy Writ and history. And it is true, even written by Apostle Paul in the latter part of the Romans 11 chapter you mention. Or didn't you understand what Paul said about the unbelieving part of Israel that is still beloved, for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance?
There's two parts of the seed of Israel Paul is speaking of in the Romans 11 chapter, 1) believing remnant of the seed of Israel according to the election of grace, and 2) blinded remnant of Israel which refuse Christ Jesus. God Himself blinded the majority of that second part of Israel, known mostly to us as orthodox Jews. But those will not stay blinded forever, as Paul also covered that there also. The important reason Paul gave for their blindness was so The Gospel of Jesus Christ could ALSO... go to the Gentiles. Paul warned us there also about being 'wise in our own conceits' against that unbelieving remnant of Israel (Rom.11:25).
So,are many of the Old Testament promises to the nation are to be fulfilled, and that He has planned for the nation to be saved near, or at, the end of the church age?
You haven't understood what all Paul was teaching in his Epistles about the nation of Israel, specifically what I just covered above, including prophecy about the ten tribes of Israel (house of Israel), and their migrations to the west to become "a multitude of nations" under Ephraim (Gen.48). If you had understood that, then you wouldn't ask such a question, because the majority of the people of ten tribed Israel HAVE... obtained to Christ's Salvation for thats who became the founders of the western Christian nations of history. That includes a lot of Judah that also migrated to the western nations too. The migrations into the west of the ten tribes is even mentioned in 2 Esdras in the Apocrypha (the Apocrypha was included in the original first edition 1611 King James Bible - can still get a copy from Thomas Nelson Publishing in Nashville, Tn.).
The ones of Israel that you're actually referring to are mostly those of Judah, the "house of Judah" per God's Word, the Jews. Judah and Israel were separated after Solomon's days (1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 18). They were never... gathered back together as one body, but those who believe on Jesus among them will be (Ezek.37 with the "two sticks" prophecy when Jesus returns). God promised the nation of Israel would exist forever (see Jer.31:35-40).
Note--When one studies the scriptures by covenants and not by Testaments--these questions are easily answered in the negative. However, we are not doing so in this study.
The word "testament" is simply an English translation of the Greek word for 'covenant'. Men's doctrines often confuse that. The Old Covenant is not the whole Old Testament Books. The Old Testament Books of the prophets, the Psalms, are not... the Old Covenant. (I'm not Jewish; I only put the phrase Old Covenant in capitals to make a distinction between the New Covenant our Lord Jesus Christ brought). Sadly, because the KJV translators used the labels 'Old Testament' and 'New Testament' to separate the time when Christ came to die on the cross, many have wrongly taught everything written in the Old Testament Books is now dead history, but that's not true.
Much written in the Old Testament Books has been fulfilled by Christ Jesus, but not all of it. Our Lord Jesus and all His Apostles when referring to future prophecy were pulling from the Old Testament Books of God's prophets, even some coming from the first five Books that God penned through Moses. Yet the Old Covenant is abolished, and is no more. Not the Old Testament Books, but specifically the Old Covenant contract. The only Salvation contract offered from God at present is the New Covenant through the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ.
The orthodox unbelieving Jews are no longer under the Old Covenant, simply because it does not exist anymore. They are trying... to keep it alive, but if you'll notice, God ended their ability to practice that Old Covenant worship in Jerusalem centuries ago. That's why they keep wanting to re-establish Jerusalem in that Old Covenant still today, which requires the existence of an Israelite temple to do it. That's why when we under Christ Jesus see them build another temple in Jerusalem, and start up that Old Covenant sacrificial worship again, you know that working is not of our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
We are going to turn to the Apostle Paul--he gives us an inspired account for the future of God's people in Romans 9-11.
God on Pentecost has done what? God has provided a way of salvation for all, Jew{acts 2} or Gentiles{acts 10-11} IN JESUS CHRIST because of what?
All have sinned and are in need of salvation. That salvation was made available beginning in Acts 2 and continues until Christ returns for "the end.
Please note--the same spiritual blessings are needed and provided for all people--now, right now, in this age--..
Further, both the Lord and Paul are interested in the salvation of Israel--But Israel is no longer God's special people. Why?
Like I said per Rom.11:25, we cannot do away with God's gifts and calling to Israel, not even to the unbelieving seed of Israel. He STILL... has a specific plan for the unbelievers of the seed of Israel when Jesus returns. And Paul quoted from the Book of Isaiah there in Romans 11 about that future plan for them. It's about the future time when the 'blindness' God put upon unbelieving Judah will be removed. THEN... once their spiritual eyes are opened to Christ's Salvation, they will be able to make their choice. Until then, they are not 'cut off' from His Salvation yet, and only IF they still reject Christ Jesus.
But what about the other part of Israel, the majority of Israel of the ten scattered tribes? The majority of them are ALREADY... in Christ's Salvation Plan per the New Covenant, having been the original founders of the early Christian nations, especially those in Europe.
[1] The did not keep the covenant made at Sinai
None of the children of Israel could keep it. The Old Covenant and purpose of the law was only to POINT... to the Way in Christ Jesus Who was to come. Paul said it was added because of transgressions till the seed would come to whom the promise was made (Gal.3:19). That's why we are no longer under God's law
IF... we walk by The Spirit through Jesus Christ, which is also what Paul taught in Galatians. Walking by The Spirit means not doing anything that is against God's law, which is what Paul also taught in Galatians. He taught a different application of God's laws for one who instead walks by their flesh! So the question is, how do we stay in Christ's grace today? Through repentance and confessing our sins to Him when we mess up by wandering off to follow our flesh, and thus bring ourselves back under bondage to God's law.
[2] They chose not to keep the covenant in Deut 29--their choice
That's not correct.
When Moses asked them to agree to all that God commanded them through Moses, all the children of Israel agreed to do it, and that more than once after having disobeyed (Exodus 24:3; Deut.5:27; Deut.26:17-19; Joshua 24:24; Nehemiah 10:29). So even under the Old Covenant through Moses, God revealed His loving Nature and great Patience with the people of Israel.
[3] They put the son of God on a Cross and killed Him--forfeiting all rights with God under the Mosaical law.
That's what most believe, but it's not entirely accurate, because 1) the majority of the seed of the ten tribes of Israel were not even present in the holy land at Christ's first coming to die on the cross. 2) the "crept in unawares" (Jude 1:4) had taken over the scribes position and Moses' seat by the time of Christ's first coming. Those mostly behind it were foreigners of the leftover Canaanite peoples among the scribes and Pharisees; pagans; the scribes were of the foreigner Kenites (1 Chronicles 2:55) (for Canaanites that eventually became Nethinims and priests, see Judges 2 & 3; Joshus 9; 1 Kings 9:19-22; Ezra 2; Ezra 8; Ezra 9; Nehemiah 3:26; Matt.13 about the "tares"; Matt.23 of what Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees; also John 8; Zechariah 14:21). Those were truly the ones responsible for Christ's crucifixion, and even stirring up the crowds at Jesus' trial.
Not all the Jews refused Christ Jesus, though the majority of them did, and stil do today.
Those who heed men's traditions have that Bible history totally missing... out of their understanding of God's Word and His Salvation Plan. It's because men's traditions are like the old bottles our Lord Jesus mentioned. You can't put the New Wine understanding into old bottles because they'll break. You put the New Wine into new bottles, so both are preserved. This is why our Lord Jesus and His disciples very harshly rebuked those foreigners of the scribes and Pharisees that had crept into the positions of Moses' seat. Jesus even called them "vipers" (asps), and said their father was the devil. Those were the main ones responsible for shedding the blood of the prophets per Matt.23 and Luke 11. That did not apply to all the children of Israel. And if you don't yet understand this, when our Lord Jesus returns you will understand it then.
[4] AND, the really big reason --THEY THE JEWS HAVE NOT ACCEPTED JESUS AS THE MESSIAH!!!
Quite a few of the Jews HAVE... already accepted Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. Quit tryng to put the same blanket upon all of them. God doesn't like us doing that.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Paul had a whole lot more to say there about the flesh seed of Israel according to God's promises.
So, like I said before, what made you ever think that I needed your help in understanding???
Go to ISAIAH 28 THROUGH 29 AND READ! Then you'll KNOW which ones of Israel God was specifically talking about there, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from about that stone of stumbling idea.
(For those interested, God was especially speaking about the leaders of Israel in Isaiah 28 and 29, those who were SUPPOSED to be knowledgable in His Word, line upon line. But they WOULD NOT DO IT! Do you think brethren, not doing that might ALSO fit a lot of our Christian preachers today??? Yes, you bet it does; they do the SAME things old Israel did with not fulfilling proper Bible study in ALL of God's Word line upon line like He said to do it! Thus the 'old bottles' of men's traditions is what they get instead, only FRAGMENTS of understanding, a little bit of understanding here and a little bit of understanding there, that they might be snared, and taken, just like the Isaiah 28 Scripture warns.)
Here is the point--and, it is a big one!
The point that is established is that "Israel" that is spiritual Israel--THE TRUE PEOPLE OF GOD--IS NOT, IS NOT identical with the ethnic Israel or the Physical offspring of Abraham.
You mean you've spent all that time and that's what you're trying to establish???
Paul's Message in Rom.9 is about both flesh Israel per the examples of Isaac, Jacob and Esau he gave there, in contrast to how the New Covenant brings believing Gentiles into the fold of God's concept of Israel. The name Israel IS... the Salvation Name through Christ Jesus. The word means 'to prevail with God's help'. It's the same idea our Lord Jesus said about 'overcoming' with His help.
It is also God's Birthright name given to Jacob and his descendents, and applies to the seed of Israel that 'overcome' through Christ Jesus and believing Gentiles joined with them. That Birthright followed scattered Israel of the ten tribes into the west to found the western Christian nations in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. THAT's where God's Birthright promises have been manifest since Jesus came to die on the cross!! (Look those promises up)
But we see the false prophets want to try and destroy God's Birthright among the descendents of Israel established in the western Christian nations! That's who's been trying to tear down the western Christian nations today, the false "crept in unawares" among us also. (Yes, they have crept in among many Christian Churches and seminaries today also, just like they did with the old Sanhedrin and temple before Christ's first coming; it was OT prophecy that it would happen.)
Really really big point here and if you don't think about it--you can miss it--consider...
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
So, Paul said NONE of the seed of Israel are God's Israel?? No, if you'll notice, he did not say that. Paul said they are not ALL Israel, which are of Israel. That's different. And truly, neither are ALL of Abraham's descendents of Israel. Why's that? Simply because Abraham had OTHER children that were not born through Isaac. Ishamel was one of Abraham's other children, and they still claim Isaac stole their birthright.
The children of The Promise are 'counted' for the seed of Israel. What Promise? The Promise by Faith which God first gave through Abraham; that's the Promise that all this depends upon per Paul. I bet that's the punchline you're waiting for, isn't it. That is how Christ's Church is formed to include both the believing 'seed' of Israel, and believing Gentiles. It's not a NEW Israel. It's the same Israel God has always had His Salvation Plan ordained for. The flesh seed of Israel were simply chosen to 'represent' the Israel under Christ Jesus. That's why Jesus promised His Apostles of the seed of Israel would sit upon thrones judging the 12 tribes in final.
Thus we CANNOT ever... get rid of the Israel as a 'nation' idea which God has ordained to exist forever (Jer.31). It will be established as a 'nation' in Christ's future Kingdom also, even one-third with Egypt and Assyria per the end of isaiah 19.
What is Paul doing here? He is reminding his readers and thus, us today of the fact that Abraham had two sons, Issac and Ishmael.
God chose Isaaac as the one through whom the spiritual seed would come i.e. Romans 9:7.
Before we go on-- you have to learn to shut down the enormous amount of false information provided by the pre mill and pre mill dispen folks to stay focused on the texts.
Look at this verse--Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Already covered that point. And I like the good ole' KJV Bible just fine...
Rom 9:6-10
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(KJV)
Why does Paul immediately go into a teaching about Sarah and Abraham's seed of Isaac? Simple, because he's talking about the Promise by Faith first given to Abraham, then through Isaac, and finally to Jacob. HOW IS THAT NOT ABOUT FLESH SEED OF ISRAEL?
This is why our Lord Jesus called God, The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, and The God of Jacob, for That is one of His Titles. And it's about that Promise by Faith first given through Abraham which continued... next to Gentiles??? Nope! That Promise by Faith then continued to Isaac, then to Jacob whom God then named 'Israel', and then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. That was about GOD's choosing of ELECTION, even of the seed of Israel. Was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh 'counted' as the seed of Israel, and as spiritual Israel? Yes, if they believe on Christ. (Jesus showed at the end of John 8 that Abraham did believe. Abraham just didn't get to live to see Christ's coming. Enoch, the 7th from Adam, also had to have known The Gospel, since he was given to prophesy of Jesus coming with ten thousands of His saints, as quoted in Jude 1). So it's wrong to think the Old Testament patriarchs and prophets knew nothing about The Gospel (see Ps.22 given through David).
Let's rewind this a bit--It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God rather it is the children of the promise that are regarded as descendants.
Paul then goes on to show them, his readers and us today, the implications of this factiod..
Not all of the Jews of "his day" could properly call themselves "Israel", the people of God, --BUT ONLY those who follow the EXAMPLE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM.
Yep!
And just WHO per Old Testament history followed that Faith? Did ANY of the flesh seed of Israel follow it? YES! Of course! Otherwise, even the
"multitude of nations" prophecy given to Ephraim would not have been established with the western Christian nations in The Gospel of Jesus Christ!!! (But it looks like you've got a long, long ways to understand that part about the western Christian nations being the
"multitude of nations" fulfillment per the Gen.48 prophecy to Ephraim. Untie the tether around your neck from the traditions of men, and you might... come to it.)
Rom 2:28 Just because you live like a Jew and are circumcised doesn't make you a real Jew.
Rom 2:29 To be a real Jew you must obey the Law. True circumcision is something that happens deep in your heart, not something done to your body. And besides, you should want praise from God and not from humans.
Rom 4:12 This also makes Abraham the father of everyone who is circumcised and has faith in God, as Abraham did before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:13 God promised Abraham and his descendants that he would give them the world. This promise wasn't made because Abraham had obeyed a law, but because his faith in God made him acceptable.
Rom 4:14 If Abraham and his descendants were given this promise because they had obeyed a law, then faith would mean nothing, and the promise would be worthless.
By the way this distinction between physical and spiritual circumcision was made as early as hereJer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
The idea of spiritual circumcision was actually from the Old Testament in Genesis first. It involved the token of God's Promise by Faith first given to Abraham and then to his seed. It happened along with the Promise by Faith 430 years BEFORE the giving of the law through Moses. You should study about that from Paul in Romans and Galatians involving Abraham more carefully. Concerning circumsion of the flesh, it profits nothing like Paul said. The real circumsion is of the heart for those who believe by Faith as Abraham did like you showed. Thus God gave Abraham a fleshy token to represent the Real Spiritual Circumcision that would come by Faith on Christ Jesus.
As an aside here--I believe we today are not as acquainted with the Mosaic law and its teachings as we need to be.
The early founders of the western Christian nations were well acquainted with it, so what happened? They used it to establish the laws governing the western Christian nations. Christ's enemies have crept in; that's what happened. How they started hatred against those laws is by tricking Christian brethren into mis-applying them, and starting wars against each other; making everyone fear and glad to get rid of a lot of them. But God has seen fit to have many of them still established among His people of the western Christian nations. When Christ enemies become successful individually trying to force us to disregard God's Ten Commandments, then you will see Christ's enemies first-hand in front of you. That time of the Antichrist is coming.
Again it could well be the influence of the pre mill dis folks that keep us from being as aware as we should be as disciples of Christ.
Even then a very long time prior to the coming of Christ this was an issue and a problem for Israel. Pretty much the same problems for christians today--depending on the keeping of the ordinances to the neglect of the heart of the teachings themselves.
Clearly, external obedience to the law of Moses does not make one a "true descendant of Abraham" for as we see, there must also be a demonstration of the law in one's life--Rom 2:28-29.
Richard79408
Christian law is about God's laws from The Bible. Those laws are to protect God's people from the wicked today. Remove them, and you remove one of God's longstanding methods of keeping order among His people. That's why Christ's enemies want to do away with those laws that keep order.
God's laws also involve science, a part not many are aware of. In the middle ages when doctors couldn't figure 'how' diseases in one ward was being transferred from patient to patient, someone who knew about God's laws told them, got to rinse your hands under 'running water' like God told the Israelites to do with cleaning themselves and pots, etc. The doctors were washing their hands in the same bowl of dirty water after caring for each patient, transferring disease to the next patient.
