Do we need to be concerned with loss of salvation warnings?

[This Vale Of Tears]

[SIZE=medium]We are not in heaven yet, but we do possess a birthright (like Hebrews talks about) an inheritance (like peter talks about) that cannot be taken away, stolen or taken back even by God. BUT since it is truly ours we can like Esau sell it or give it away. If we cannot sell it or give it away than it is not truly ours. The reason some people are like Esau and sell their birthright for little is because there is the perceived pleasures of sin that are immediate as compared to heaven which they think is way off in the future for them. People naturally like to be loved for how they want others to perceive them to be and really do not like the idea of having to humble themselves to the point of continuing to accept pure charity. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]We are not in heaven yet, but we do possess a birthright (like Hebrews talks about) an inheritance (like peter talks about) that cannot be taken away, stolen or taken back even by God. BUT since it is truly ours we can like Esau sell it or give it away. If we cannot sell it or give it away than it is not truly ours. The reason some people are like Esau and sell their birthright for little is because there is the perceived pleasures of sin that are immediate as compared to heaven which they think is way off in the future for them. People naturally like to be loved for how they want others to perceive them to be and really do not like the idea of having to humble themselves to the point of continuing to accept pure charity. [/SIZE]

Exactly right. Becoming a Christian does not forfeit our free will. Something we freely accept we can just as freely abandon. I don't understand the thinking that we're locked in, and it reminds me of an ugly trend I've seen among Christians who demand a guarantee, but the only guarantee we have is that if we remain faithful to the end, we will be saved: For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, (Hebrews 3:14)

 

[williemac]

Exactly right. Becoming a Christian does not forfeit our free will. Something we freely accept we can just as freely abandon. I don't understand the thinking that we're locked in, and it reminds me of an ugly trend I've seen among Christians who demand a guarantee, but the only guarantee we have is that if we remain faithful to the end, we will be saved: For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, (Hebrews 3:14)

What you quoted here makes no mention of a guarantee. However, the bible does use this word in assuring us that the Holy Spirit was given to us as a guarantee of our inheritance. That is not going to be easy to dispute, I think. But, I feel that God is assuring us that He does not lie nor change His mind about His promise. That is our guarantee. He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. He initiated this salvation of mankind and He provided the means and conditions by which it can occur. And this is our confidence. It is in Him and in His promise.

As I shared before, we will be and have been tempted by many voices and sources to exchange this confidence for our own efforts or ability. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Faith is the means by which we received from God. Humility is what qualified us to receive it.
God knows the toughts and intentions of our heart. This is the area where our fate is determined. It is in our dependance upon His grace and mercy rather than confidence in our own performance. Read Luke 18:10-14.

The inuendos and warnings out there that tell us to behave ourselves in order to maintain our salvation are giving us good advice but for the wrong reasons. For, if we are attempting to justify ourselves by any other means than through the sacrifice of Jesus, we are in danger of revealing the lack of faith in His sacrifice. Therefore, having been justified by (way of ) faith, we have peace with God. This is our confidence. And the proof of this peace is the presence of the Holy Spirit in us. I feel sorry for they who cannot tell if they have the Spirit in them or not. For the rest of us, we know that as long as He is in us, we have a guarantee.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

What you quoted here makes no mention of a guarantee. However, the bible does use this word in assuring us that the Holy Spirit was given to us as a guarantee of our inheritance. That is not going to be easy to dispute, I think. But, I feel that God is assuring us that He does not lie nor change His mind about His promise. That is our guarantee. He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. He initiated this salvation of mankind and He provided the means and conditions by which it can occur. And this is our confidence. It is in Him and in His promise.

As I shared before, we will be and have been tempted by many voices and sources to exchange this confidence for our own efforts or ability. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Faith is the means by which we received from God. Humility is what qualified us to receive it.
God knows the toughts and intentions of our heart. This is the area where our fate is determined. It is in our dependance upon His grace and mercy rather than confidence in our own performance. Read Luke 18:10-14.

The inuendos and warnings out there that tell us to behave ourselves in order to maintain our salvation are giving us good advice but for the wrong reasons. For, if we are attempting to justify ourselves by any other means than through the sacrifice of Jesus, we are in danger of revealing the lack of faith in His sacrifice. Therefore, having been justified by (way of ) faith, we have peace with God. This is our confidence. And the proof of this peace is the presence of the Holy Spirit in us. I feel sorry for they who cannot tell if they have the Spirit in them or not. For the rest of us, we know that as long as He is in us, we have a guarantee.

What OSAS can never prove is that people lose their free will once they are converted, thus they're locked in. Nobody who was saved is lost because God changed his mind, but they can be lost if they change their own mind. All those warnings are specifically to urge us not to abandon our faith. And if you read the verse I quoted in context, you would have found the paragraph started with this: Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God (Hebrews 3:12) making the interpretation of verse 14, which I quoted, clear and unmistakable. The danger exists because free will exists and free will carries us into eternity, for nothing is imposed upon us against our wishes, even salvation.

 

[williemac]

What OSAS can never prove is that people lose their free will once they are converted, thus they're locked in. Nobody who was saved is lost because God changed his mind, but they can be lost if they change their own mind. All those warnings are specifically to urge us not to abandon our faith. And if you read the verse I quoted in context, you would have found the paragraph started with this: Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God (Hebrews 3:12) making the interpretation of verse 14, which I quoted, clear and unmistakable. The danger exists because free will exists and free will carries us into eternity, for nothing is imposed upon us against our wishes, even salvation.

Yes, I agree. I hadn't looked at the context of Heb.3:14. Seems we are on the same page. However, when one thinks about it, if a person abandons faith and departs from God, then for that person the subject of a guarantee becomes irrelevant. At that point, they are not interested in a guarantee.
An underlying theme in Hebrews is faith. Even in ch.6, we see that the foundation for a Jew was to repent from dead works and turn to faith. The works of the law were and always will be dead works when they are conntected with justification for life. So, the danger for them and for many now is to turn from faith and head towards self justification through works of moral obedience. Heb.10:39 assures them that they were not of those who draw back to perdition but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. If this isn't taken into consideration along with the beginning of the context, then vs.26 will be misunderstood. Even in that chapter, the advice is repeated (vs.35), to not cast away their confidence. The author had just given a lengthy and detailed teaching concerning the accomplishment of the sacrifice of Jesus and its superiority over the blood of bulls and goats. Obviously they needed to hear all about it and get a clear understanding. The warning for them was to not go back to the old way and old covenant. Under that system, there no longer remained any sacrifices. As you have so rightly pointed out. Context is imperative in understanding a text.

People will isolate vs.26 and use it to warn others to behave themselves or else lose their salvation. Like I shared. They exhort others to do the right things but for the wrong reason. If a person is depending on his own behavior to get or remain saved, then he is outside of the confidence that the bible and God has granted to man. You are correct, We have the free will to do that. However I wouldnt be quick to write off a person who has been deceived. There is this factor of " forgive them for they know not what they do".

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Yes, I agree. I hadn't looked at the context of Heb.3:14. Seems we are on the same page. However, when one thinks about it, if a person abandons faith and departs from God, then for that person the subject of a guarantee becomes irrelevant. At that point, they are not interested in a guarantee.
An underlying theme in Hebrews is faith. Even in ch.6, we see that the foundation for a Jew was to repent from dead works and turn to faith. The works of the law were and always will be dead works when they are conntected with justification for life. So, the danger for them and for many now is to turn from faith and head towards self justification through works of moral obedience. Heb.10:39 assures them that they were not of those who draw back to perdition but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. If this isn't taken into consideration along with the beginning of the context, then vs.26 will be misunderstood. Even in that chapter, the advice is repeated (vs.35), to not cast away their confidence. The author had just given a lengthy and detailed teaching concerning the accomplishment of the sacrifice of Jesus and its superiority over the blood of bulls and goats. Obviously they needed to hear all about it and get a clear understanding. The warning for them was to not go back to the old way and old covenant. Under that system, there no longer remained any sacrifices. As you have so rightly pointed out. Context is imperative in understanding a text.

People will isolate vs.26 and use it to warn others to behave themselves or else lose their salvation. Like I shared. They exhort others to do the right things but for the wrong reason. If a person is depending on his own behavior to get or remain saved, then he is outside of the confidence that the bible and God has granted to man. You are correct, We have the free will to do that. However I wouldnt be quick to write off a person who has been deceived. There is this factor of " forgive them for they know not what they do".

The problem as I see it is that we continually talk past one another on this subject, by we I mean OSAS and those who don't believe OSAS. Few Christians will argue that a sin can be so egregious that it can't be forgiven, or that God changes his mind, or that hell lays it's clutches on everyone who doesn't live an impeccable Christian life, but it seems that for OSAS that's all they hear, then they proceed to rend this straw argument to pieces. I believe as Scripture assures that "neither height nor depth nor angels nor daemons, nor any creature...shall separate us from the love of God". I don't believe for a moment that my soul is imperiled by any temptation, any event, or any demon. And I am irrevocably confident that I will persist in the holy faith until my dying breath, that my roots have grown deep in the love of the Lord and I will never depart from Him.

So the alternative to OSAS is not fear, and in fact I think that OSAS has more of a foundation on fear because it seeks an impervious guarantee even from our own actions and decisions, a guarantee that isn't reasonable and certainly isn't biblical.

With all that said, there is a reason to pursue holiness in this life and to abstain from impious behavior and immorality and that's to reduce or altogether escape the fires of purgatory. Even Protestants have a sense that there's plenary consequences to what we do on this earth, even if the eternal consequences have been satiated by Christ's death and resurrection and that fuels the "fire and brimstone" teaching, albeit misguided. Something terrible awaits Christians who live lives of compromise and indulgence and that something terrible isn't eternity in hell as preached by some, but the painful process by which we are prepared for heaven, for even in the next life we are eternally creatures of free will and we won't go to heaven until we willingly release our fleshly desires. This is why even Protestants such as C.S. Lewis were strong believers in the purgatory process. Our sanctification process will come to completion in this life or in the life to come, but how much better for us if we are perfected in this life, having overcome our fallen nature and becoming truly like Christ is.

 

[shturt678s]

So it's impossible for one's name to be removed from the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev.3:5) even though one is unrepentant...just curious???

Does this Book contain the names of all who have true spiritual life?

So I can show up to Church on Sunday after undergoing a "born again" experience, then throw around "God bless you" all week along with placing a Bible on the dash for all to see thus OSAS???

Old Jack opening that Bible on the dash to Heb.6:4-6.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

So it's impossible for one's name to be removed from the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev.3:5) even though one is unrepentant...just curious???

Does this Book contain the names of all who have true spiritual life?

So I can show up to Church on Sunday after undergoing a "born again" experience, then throw around "God bless you" all week along with placing a Bible on the dash for all to see thus OSAS???

Old Jack opening that Bible on the dash to Heb.6:4-6.

I can promise you that we all have unrepented sin. And that Hebrews passage is a real pebble in the OSAS shoes. :lol:

 

[aspen]

is there a verse that says we need to be born again only once?

 

[RANDOR]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...being born again is not thinking you are born again.....it's an experience, it's real, tangible, life changing, you can cut it with a knife, you can hit it with a hammer, it's a visitation from christ...you know that you know that you know that you know that you know you are forgiven from your sins....it is definetly not ....I hope I am because I'll give Jesus a try.

Remember God knows the heart...which means He knows if you're serious or not about wanting your sins removed......how bad do you want your sins errased? Have you come to the conclusion just how bad your sins are...have you recognized them as God sees them?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

is there a verse that says we need to be born again only once?

I feel born again every time I put on a turtle neck. My head crowns through the birth canal and it's my birthday all over again!

Is that what you meant?

 

[RANDOR]

Hmmmmmmmmmm if someone is having trouble with being born again...I lament they are not.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

For example Rev.3:5. Was Paul even concerned about being rejected in the end?

Impossible to lose one's salvation?

Old, at a loss, Jack

There are two things that should be of greatest concern; "and only a few find it". Mt. 7:13 Why? and yes salvation can be denied if one uses the gate unlawfully and if he later opposes the gate after having used it.

 

[Madad21]

There are two things that should be of greatest concern; "and only a few find it". Mt. 7:13 Why? and yes salvation can be denied if one uses the gate unlawfully and if he later opposes the gate after having used it.

Can you speak plainly instead of in silly riddles, nobody else here is talking like that.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Can you speak plainly instead of in silly riddles, nobody else here is talking like that.

A direct quote of Jesus Christ is a silly riddle to you? "Nobody else here is talking like that"; I do not follow the madding religious crowd.

 

[Madad21]

My fault, your the 4th one in 5 days I should know better by now as in Prov 26:4.
Go ahead with your foolish rant.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

My fault, your the 4th one in 5 days I should know better by now as in Prov 26:4.
Go ahead with your foolish rant.

Whom are you addressing? And what have the 4th or 5th others stated that in your lofty opinion are "foolish rant(s)"?