Do We Still Have A Sin Nature...

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Romans 6.
Those in Christ no longer have a ''sin nature''.
Thats what it means to be born again, or reborn in Christ.

Boy you got that right.

 

[Peterlag]

I would agree with the part about Christ being the source of our righteousness, and about the Law being dead to us. Christ assumed the entire judgment of the Law of Moses to himself, on behalf of the entire human race, displaying for all time what the curse of sin was. (Christ is the judge over all of human nature, and displayed his judgment of all mankind in his death for us.)

Since humanity had sinned since Adam, all of them had to die. So in Christ's death, all died, putting an end to the application of the Law. The Law cannot apply any longer to people who have died.

So the only means of righteousness that lasts is righteousness we obtain spiritually from Christ. People have always been able to do righteousness, but in Christ, all righteousness died, together with all sin. Any righteousness that Man could do is spoiled by a single sin. So in Christ all died, both the righteous and the wicked.

Where I do not agree is, as I said, where you think churches have taught otherwise. Perhaps in some quarters there is a liberal bent in which what you claim they believe is actually taught and believed. But generally, Christian doctrine upholds a standard that is higher than what many churches actually practice, namely that Christ's righteousness is the source of our justification, through his cross.

It seems clear to me now that I have a new nature which is the spirit of God. And that I am not in a battle between two natures nor do I need to get God to teach my spirit to teach my flesh. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians even though most have no idea what it is or how it works. There are many Christians who have been able to tap into this spirit from time to time on all kinds of levels even if in most cases they had no idea what was happening or how it works. Most if not all of the problem is that this is a "lost art" because the Bible preachers teach their people to walk by the flesh.

Most Christians still believe the spirit of Christ makes their flesh spiritual. And this is why they believe their sins are forgiven when they are born again up to that point, but must run to God to confess and repent their new sins every time they sin after becoming a Christian. The belief is that you will either be lost, or on your way to hell, or at the very least God will not fellowship with you, and He certainly will not answer your prayers if you are found with an unconfessed sin. Such a concept would mean everybody would be on their way to hell because there is not a person on this earth who does not have either a known or an unknown unconfessed sin. Now if this new sin just means the loss of a relationship with God, which would include unanswered prayers. Then God would not have a single person on this earth qualified to receive an answer to prayer or to be able to fellowship with Him.

This idea that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual is believed by most because the churches teach that Christians still have a sin nature. They do not. It's destroyed after the spirit of Christ has come upon the Christian. It seems like the whole Christian world teaches that the spirit follows the flesh, and by that, I mean the spirit functions through the flesh. I'm daring to believe the Christian's flesh should walk in or after and therefore be led by the spirit of Christ that just happens to be in the Christian. It's not really my spirit, but rather the spirit of Christ. And if you want to split hairs, it's really not his spirit because it came from God, which is why it's sometimes referred to as the spirit of God. When we read it's not you that speak, but the spirit of your Father. That does not mean God is speaking through you. It's His spirit that He gave to you that He calls the spirit of His son.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It seems clear to me now that I have a new nature which is the spirit of God.

At best that is wrong--at worst, a heresy. No, you are *not* the "spirit of God!" What gives life to your spirit and your flesh does not make you perfect, but you are allowed to enter into an experience of "new life in Christ."

And that I am not in a battle between two natures nor do I need to get God to teach my spirit to teach my flesh. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians even though most have no idea what it is or how it works. There are many Christians who have been able to tap into this spirit from time to time on all kinds of levels even if in most cases they had no idea what was happening or how it works. Most if not all of the problem is that this is a "lost art" because the Bible preachers teach their people to walk by the flesh.

Your "lost art" sounds like a form of Gnosticism--not Christianity. It's pseudo-Christianity. Are you in some kind of a cult? I've been associated with several cults, and recognize the "wierdness" associated with your teaching. It always leaves you wondering, What is this?

If you think you have a "secret" that other Christians know very little about, then you're in cult territory.

Most Christians still believe the spirit of Christ makes their flesh spiritual. And this is why they believe their sins are forgiven when they are born again up to that point, but must run to God to confess and repent their new sins every time they sin after becoming a Christian. The belief is that you will either be lost, or on your way to hell, or at the very least God will not fellowship with you, and He certainly will not answer your prayers if you are found with an unconfessed sin. Such a concept would mean everybody would be on their way to hell because there is not a person on this earth who does not have either a known or an unknown unconfessed sin. Now if this new sin just means the loss of a relationship with God, which would include unanswered prayers. Then God would not have a single person on this earth qualified to receive an answer to prayer or to be able to fellowship with Him.

No, most authentic Christians believe they live by grace, and although they believe they should always confess sins, they do not believe they lose their Salvation every time they sin.

I don't know what you mean when you say that most Christians believe "the spirit of Christ makes their flesh spiritual?" The Spirit of Christ does give new life to our mortal bodies, but we experience righteousness by grace, and do not yet receive our eternal inheritance, the resurrection to immortality.

This idea that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual is believed by most because the churches teach that Christians still have a sin nature. They do not.

Disbelief in a Sin Nature places you squarely in heretical territory. If we don't have a Sin Nature, we don't have to sin. Hence, some would not, technically, need Christ to die for their sins. Christ would've died for sins that didn't even have to take place!

It's destroyed after the spirit of Christ has come upon the Christian.

If Christians don't have a Sin Nature upon conversion they wouldn't sin at all. They would be choosing, all over again, the sin of Adam and Eve, falling for the same ruse again and again. How likely is that? And quite frankly, it isn't even true. Every Christian has sin in their lives.

It seems like the whole Christian world teaches that the spirit follows the flesh, and by that, I mean the spirit functions through the flesh. I'm daring to believe the Christian's flesh should walk in or after and therefore be led by the spirit of Christ that just happens to be in the Christian. It's not really my spirit, but rather the spirit of Christ.

You think *your spirit* is the *spirit of Christ?*

And if you want to split hairs, it's really not his spirit because it came from God, which is why it's sometimes referred to as the spirit of God. When we read it's not you that speak, but the spirit of your Father. That does not mean God is speaking through you. It's His spirit that He gave to you that He calls the spirit of His son.

Jesus was speaking of the source of inspiration--not that we don't speak when we testify to him! I have no idea why you differentiate between Christ's spirit and God's spirit? You're really influenced by some cultic teaching here! I'd love to help you, but you have to tell me where you're getting these strange revelations from?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Fascinating, isn't it?
For over 2000 years the faith in Christ has lived in this world.
Christians are presumably one of the foremost populace faith on this planet populated by some 7 billion people.
And the world is worse today than in its entire history.
''...thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.''

Why is the world lime it is today? Look at how the ''world'' in these forums operates among all the supposed believers here.

Look how we treat each other while defending what we think is the spirit of the gospel.

I guess this is where we need to identify “Babylon the great”....for in doing so we can answer those questions.
So who is this harlot who “rides” the beast and who "has a kingdom over the kings of the earth" and has dominated over them?
What is the connection between her and original Babylon, of whom she is a type?

Going back in history we see how the original city of Babylon came into existence.....Noah’s great grandson Nimrod, set himself up as the first political leader and creator of false worship. He was an opposer of God and with those who followed his leadership, were going to set themselves up in opposition to God....to make a great name for themselves. The command they received was to spread abroad in the earth, but Nimrod and his cronies had other ideas...
The tower they were building was to have its "top in the heaven....legend has it that it was supposed to save them if there was another flood?

Genesis 11:1-9....
“The whole earth had a common language and a common vocabulary. When the people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there. Then they said to one another, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” (They had brick instead of stone and tar instead of mortar.) Then they said, “Come, let’s build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens so that we may make a name for ourselves. Otherwise we will be scattered across the face of the entire earth.” But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the people had started building. And the Lord said, “If as one people all sharing a common language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be beyond them. Come, let’s go down and confuse their language so they won’t be able to understand each other.” So the Lord scattered them from there across the face of the entire earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why its name was called Babel —because there the Lord confused the language of the entire world, and from there the Lord scattered them across the face of the entire earth.” (NET)

So Babylon was the place from which all false ideas about God and about how humans should worship, originated. It is the springboard from which false worship and false religious ideas spread throughout the whole world.
Some scholars recognize Nimrod as the first human to be deified, apparently 'placed among the gods' by his mother after his violent death. She then claimed the title “mother of god”.....a title that was later transferred to Mary in Roman Catholicism. Mother goddess worship was ancient even when Jesus walked the earth.

This is the Egyptian goddess Isis and child Horus.

Isis, Osiris and Horus were also presented as a trinity of gods...but the concept goes back to Babylon.

Nimrod is also closely linked with Tammuz whom the unfaithful Israelite women were seen weeping over. (Ezekiel 8:14) He was the god who died in the Winter but came back to life in the Spring....hence the weeping for him.

So when we see familiar images and teachings in false worship as we do in the beliefs they all hold in common, such as multiplicities of gods, an immortal soul that departs from the body at death to go to either a heaven of bliss or a hell of eternal torment.....specially robed religious leaders with high sounding titles, don’t we have to wonder why we see these very same things taught in Christendom? They were entirely absent from anything taught by Jesus Christ, but skillfully overlaid and woven into scripture to appear as if they were.

Microcosm\Macrocosm
There was a war in heaven where sin was born. An angel gathered other angels to go to war against GOD!

Thats how sin pre-existed Eden, and entered into the world.

The "war in heaven" is in Revelation 12 and John was transported to the "Lord's Day"....to a future time...the time we are living in right now. The war in heaven did not take place before sin even entered the world of mankind. Sin began with the first rebel, not in heaven but here on earth in the garden.The other angels were recruited after satan's original rebellion. God allowed him to test out all of his children.

If the humans had exercised their free will differently, they could have prevented sin from entering the human race....all they had to do was obey one simple command and satan would have been dealt with in the heavenly realm without it causing any trouble for the humans.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But before all that, God wrote the names of everyone he would save from sin in a book that he wrote before he created the world.

I see that scenario a little differently. The original rebel was alone in the garden assigned as a guardian to oversee the situation. He is identified in Ezekiel. He was right there in the garden observing all that was taking place, seeing the man receive his wife after so long being on his own. All other creatures had a mate but him, so God produced for him 'bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh'....and he was besotted. The angel who became satan entertained ideas about becoming a god himself and plotted a way to take the humans away from God so that he could claim their worship for himself. He knew how to achieve it.

He did not persuade his fellow angels until after that deed was done. According to the scriptures satan was a faithful angel until he got carried away by his own magnificence.....

"You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.
You were adorned with every precious stone. . . .

They were prepared on the day you were created.

14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.

You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.

15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . .

You became filled with violence, and you began to sin. . . .

O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire.

17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.

You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor." (Ezekiel 38:13-17)

So there was no satan before the fall in Eden when he became "satan" (resister) the "devil" (slanderer).
There was no plan from "before he created the world" because that means that God planned the whole thing and knew that man's sin was inevitable......it wasn't. Free will means what it says.....humans and angels can exercise their free will or else there would never have been a rebellion. This whole mess is about free will and what happens when it is abused. We are living in the most important object lesson in history and it will establish precedents for all time to come.....no human or angel will ever want to repeat what we have been living through for thousands of years....but we are so close to the conclusion now. Soon Jesus will take up his role as judge of all the earth and bring all living humanity to justice. That will include those who allowed themselves to be fooled by the master deceiver. Every single one of us will be 'caught in the act of being ourselves'. Life in this world is basically God giving all of us "enough rope"....to either save ourselves, or to hang ourselves. Satan has already been sentenced as have the "goats", but they have till the end to get themselves right with God....the door is not yet closed....it will be soon...."just like the days of Noah". (Matthew 24:37-39)

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

I guess this is where we need to identify “Babylon the great”....for in doing so we can answer those questions.
So who is this harlot who “rides” the beast and who "has a kingdom over the kings of the earth" and has dominated over them?
What is the connection between her and original Babylon, of whom she is a type?

Going back in history we see how the original city of Babylon came into existence.....Noah’s great grandson Nimrod, set himself up as the first political leader and creator of false worship. He was an opposer of God and with those who followed his leadership, were going to set themselves up in opposition to God....to make a great name for themselves. The command they received was to spread abroad in the earth, but Nimrod and his cronies had other ideas...
The tower they were building was to have its "top in the heaven....legend has it that it was supposed to save them if there was another flood?

Genesis 11:1-9....
“The whole earth had a common language and a common vocabulary. When the people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there. Then they said to one another, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” (They had brick instead of stone and tar instead of mortar.) Then they said, “Come, let’s build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens so that we may make a name for ourselves. Otherwise we will be scattered across the face of the entire earth.” But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the people had started building. And the Lord said, “If as one people all sharing a common language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be beyond them. Come, let’s go down and confuse their language so they won’t be able to understand each other.” So the Lord scattered them from there across the face of the entire earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why its name was called Babel —because there the Lord confused the language of the entire world, and from there the Lord scattered them across the face of the entire earth.” (NET)

So Babylon was the place from which all false ideas about God and about how humans should worship, originated. It is the springboard from which false worship and false religious ideas spread throughout the whole world.
Some scholars recognize Nimrod as the first human to be deified, apparently 'placed among the gods' by his mother after his violent death. She then claimed the title “mother of god”.....a title that was later transferred to Mary in Roman Catholicism. Mother goddess worship was ancient even when Jesus walked the earth.

This is the Egyptian goddess Isis and child Horus.

Isis, Osiris and Horus were also presented as a trinity of gods...but the concept goes back to Babylon.

Nimrod is also closely linked with Tammuz whom the unfaithful Israelite women were seen weeping over. (Ezekiel 8:14) He was the god who died in the Winter but came back to life in the Spring....hence the weeping for him.

So when we see familiar images and teachings in false worship as we do in the beliefs they all hold in common, such as multiplicities of gods, an immortal soul that departs from the body at death to go to either a heaven of bliss or a hell of eternal torment.....specially robed religious leaders with high sounding titles, don’t we have to wonder why we see these very same things taught in Christendom? They were entirely absent from anything taught by Jesus Christ, but skillfully overlaid and woven into scripture to appear as if they were.


The "war in heaven" is in Revelation 12 and John was transported to the "Lord's Day"....to a future time...the time we are living in right now. The war in heaven did not take place before sin even entered the world of mankind. Sin began with the first rebel, not in heaven but here on earth in the garden.The other angels were recruited after satan's original rebellion. God allowed his to test out all of his children.

If the humans had exercised their free will differently, they could have prevented sin from entering the human race....all they had to do was obey one simple command and satan would have been dealt with in the heavenly realm without it causing any trouble for the humans.

If Adam and Eve had simply obeyed, God's Lambs Book of Life written before the foundation of the world by God would have been a waste of time.
Nod disobedience in Eden, no sin entering that world where people would need be saved from it.
Speaking of Babylon, are you aware of the Canaanite Babylonian origin of Judaism, and what evolved from polytheism unto the monotheistic worship of the Babylonian God Yahweh of the Jews?

 

[dev553344]

After studying the law from how Jesus explained it, I find that most people sin, I do think it could be possible to not sin if we walk perfectly with the Holy Spirit. And I believe Jesus did that. But the apostles knew it was nearly impossible, not only for themselves but also others. They mention this fact here and if you read the surrounding text it becomes clear:

Matthew 19:23-26

With God All Things Are Possible
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John further stated:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Also noting that the Lord told us not to sin, and be perfect. The apostles knowing it was good to do so did the same. And that is why there is conflicting statements.

But it's clear that people have to know what's good to be sinning against it.

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Fascinating, isn't it?
For over 2000 years the faith in Christ has lived in this world.
Christians are presumably one of the foremost populace faith on this planet populated by some 7 billion people.

Actually, almost 8 billion people.

And the world is worse today than in its entire history.
''...thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.''

You're completely misrepresenting Jesus' statement. Jesus did not make a mistake when he said that his Kingdom will come, and the world falters. He actually predicted both the lawlessness in the world and the failure of nominal Christianity. It is part of Satan's rebellion, in cooperation with human rebellion. This is how the Kingdom will come, to destroy the kingdoms of rebellious men.

Why is the world lime it is today? Look at how the ''world'' in these forums operates among all the supposed believers here.

Look how we treat each other while defending what we think is the spirit of the gospel.

Some are not real believers, and some let their carnal nature get the best of them, because they are handling the word of God, which brings us to account with God. Even ministry of any kind can bring pressure down upon those who minister, because in the world there is lots of opposition to it, lots of resistance in the way. We shouldn't be surprised that "love" is tested, as even Jesus predicted, "love will grow cold" among those who God has called to be His people.

 

[Peterlag]

At best that is wrong--at worst, a heresy. No, you are *not* the "spirit of God!" What gives life to your spirit and your flesh does not make you perfect, but you are allowed to enter into an experience of "new life in Christ."



Your "lost art" sounds like a form of Gnosticism--not Christianity. It's pseudo-Christianity. Are you in some kind of a cult? I've been associated with several cults, and recognize the "wierdness" associated with your teaching. It always leaves you wondering, What is this?

If you think you have a "secret" that other Christians know very little about, then you're in cult territory.



No, most authentic Christians believe they live by grace, and although they believe they should always confess sins, they do not believe they lose their Salvation every time they sin.

I don't know what you mean when you say that most Christians believe "the spirit of Christ makes their flesh spiritual?" The Spirit of Christ does give new life to our mortal bodies, but we experience righteousness by grace, and do not yet receive our eternal inheritance, the resurrection to immortality.



Disbelief in a Sin Nature places you squarely in heretical territory. If we don't have a Sin Nature, we don't have to sin. Hence, some would not, technically, need Christ to die for their sins. Christ would've died for sins that didn't even have to take place!



If Christians don't have a Sin Nature upon conversion they wouldn't sin at all. They would be choosing, all over again, the sin of Adam and Eve, falling for the same ruse again and again. How likely is that? And quite frankly, it isn't even true. Every Christian has sin in their lives.



You think *your spirit* is the *spirit of Christ?*



Jesus was speaking of the source of inspiration--not that we don't speak when we testify to him! I have no idea why you differentiate between Christ's spirit and God's spirit? You're really influenced by some cultic teaching here! I'd love to help you, but you have to tell me where you're getting these strange revelations from?

Let's see if we can figure out why you cannot understand what I write. And I'm pretty sure I can get the answer if you can answer just one little itty bitty question. And that question is... do you believe Jesus is God?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Let's see if we can figure out why you cannot understand what I write. And I'm pretty sure I can get the answer if you can answer just one little itty bitty question. And that question is... do you believe Jesus is God?

I believe Jesus is divine, yes. And now, your turn. What church denomination do you belong to, and who do you consider your spiritual mentor?

 

[Aunty Jane]

If Adam and Eve had simply obeyed, God's Lambs Book of Life written before the foundation of the world by God would have been a waste of time.

I think a lot of people misunderstand that statement...."before the founding of the world" doesn't mean before the creation of the planet.....the "world" there is the "kosmos" which means the world of mankind....not the earth itself. It means before the creation of the human race from Adam, all born in sin because of the debt he left them. Only when the debt was created did Jesus need to come and redeem them.

There is no predestination, or free will doesn't exist. If free will does not exist then neither satan, Adam or his wife could have made their choice to do something contrary to what God commanded. All of this human suffering was avoidable.....but free will throws a spanner in the works because all of God actions from the fall onward was actually a *reaction* to what the humans and angels decided to do of their own free will.
God is in the process of showing us all that free will was not a mistake, but a gift....we just need to learn to drive it correctly. We have seen first hand now where abuse of free will leads both humans and angels. Funny how most people don't get it.

No disobedience in Eden, no sin entering that world where people would need be saved from it.

We are not saved from sin, but from God's wrath on those who refuse to do his will....that is all God ever asked of his intelligent creation....to just follow his instructions because he loves us and has always wanted the best for us. It is we who have abused his generosity.

Speaking of Babylon, are you aware of the Canaanite Babylonian origin of Judaism, and what evolved from polytheism unto the monotheistic worship of the Babylonian God Yahweh of the Jews?

Who told you this? Polytheism evolved into monotheism? Really?

Yahweh has always been a monotheistic God to his faithful ones. In the days of the Patriarchs, before Israel (Jacob) was even born, Babylon existed.
Noah was one of only eight humans to survive the flood...he was the Patriarch of his family....all humanity therefore descended from Noah....including the Canaanites, who were descendants of Ham. The history of fallen humanity down through the ages is appalling....including Israel's failure to rid the land of the abominations of the Baal worshipping Canaanites, and taking on some of their despicable practices.

When Israel was about to enter the Promised Land, (the Land of Canaan, promised to Abraham's descendants by God hundreds of years before) God warned them not to imitate the disgusting ways that the Canaanites practiced.

He told them in Deuteronomy 18:9-12....
"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, you must not learn the abhorrent practices of those nations. 10 There must never be found among you anyone who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, anyone who practices divination, an omen reader, a soothsayer, a sorcerer, 11 one who casts spells, one who conjures up spirits, a practitioner of the occult, or a necromancer. 12 Whoever does these things is abhorrent to the Lord, and because of these detestable things the Lord your God is about to drive them out from before you."

So did Israel obey God command? To their great harm, they did not. Their example in the Bible is more of an example of what NOT to do in the worship of Yahweh.
Who was the God that Jesus worshipped?

 

[Taken]

Do We Still Have A Sin Nature...
OP^

Wholly Depends on WHO, “WE” are.

* “IF” Converted IN Christ, No, “then” they do NOT still have a Sin Nature. They are anew Wholly (body, soul, spirit) a new creature.

* All others, NOT Converted IN Christ, Yes, they still have a Sin Nature.

* They Still are the same Natural creature,
Regardless of what common terms they call themselves;
( Christians, Catholics, Protestants, Believers, Jewish, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. )

* “IF” they do not identify themselves AS CONVERTED “IN” Christ, no reason to suspect, they are WHOLLY a new creature.

Matt 18:
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mark.4
[12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Matt 9:
[ 22] But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Matt.12
[13] Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
Matt.14
[36] And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

2 Cor 5:
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, (then) he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

I think a lot of people misunderstand that statement...."before the founding of the world" doesn't mean before the creation of the planet.....the "world" there is the "kosmos" which means the world of mankind....not the earth itself. It means before the creation of the human race from Adam, all born in sin because of the debt he left them. Only when the debt was created did Jesus need to come and redeem them.

There is no predestination, or free will doesn't exist. If free will does not exist then neither satan, Adam or his wife could have made their choice to do something contrary to what God commanded. All of this human suffering was avoidable.....but free will throws a spanner in the works because all of God actions from the fall onward was actually a *reaction* to what the humans and angels decided to do of their own free will.
God is in the process of showing us all that free will was not a mistake, but a gift....we just need to learn to drive it correctly. We have seen first hand now where abuse of free will leads both humans and angels. Funny how most people don't get it.


We are not saved from sin, but from God's wrath on those who refuse to do his will....that is all God ever asked of his intelligent creation....to just follow his instructions because he loves us and has always wanted the best for us. It is we who have abused his generosity.

Even if the Lamb's Book of Eternal Life was written before Adam as you claim, it was before sin entered the world.

Who told you this? Polytheism evolved into monotheism? Really?

Really. The Jews knew they were polytheists first . El, Eloheim.
[Wukote]Yahweh has always been a monotheistic God to his faithful ones. [/Quote] He was a Babylonian god.

In the days of the Patriarchs, before Israel (Jacob) was even born, Babylon existed.
Noah was one of only eight humans to survive the flood...he was the Patriarch of his family....all humanity therefore descended from Noah....including the Canaanites, who were descendants of Ham. The history of fallen humanity down through the ages is appalling....including Israel's failure to rid the land of the abominations of the Baal worshipping Canaanites, and taking on some of their despicable practices.

When Israel was about to enter the Promised Land, (the Land of Canaan, promised to Abraham's descendants by God hundreds of years before) God warned them not to imitate the disgusting ways that the Canaanites practiced.

He told them in Deuteronomy 18:9-12....
"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, you must not learn the abhorrent practices of those nations. 10 There must never be found among you anyone who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, anyone who practices divination, an omen reader, a soothsayer, a sorcerer, 11 one who casts spells, one who conjures up spirits, a practitioner of the occult, or a necromancer. 12 Whoever does these things is abhorrent to the Lord, and because of these detestable things the Lord your God is about to drive them out from before you."

So did Israel obey God command? To their great harm, they did not. Their example in the Bible is more of an example of what NOT to do in the worship of Yahweh.
Who was the God that Jesus worshipped?

You should maybe consider studying the history of Judaism and where it actually came from. I think you would be enlightened quite a bit.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Even if the Lamb's Book of Eternal Life was written before Adam as you claim, it was before sin entered the world.

No, you misunderstand.....it was not before Adam and his wife’s creation, but “the founding of the world” was the birth of their children...who were plunged into a perpetual cycle of sin and death through no fault on their part. It was for these ones that Christ came to offer his life. With the first righteous man (Abel) "the book of life" began to be written.

Really. The Jews knew they were polytheists first . El, Eloheim.

In some places in the Hebrew Scriptures the words ʼEl (the singular form of the word “God”) and ʼElo·himʹ (the plural form of excellence of the word “God”) are used one after the other. Thus at Joshua 22:22 and Psalms 50:1 the Hebrew text reads “ʼEl ʼElo·himʹ Yeho·wahʹ”. While some translations simply transliterate the first two words of this phrase, others render them as “the God of gods” (AT, JB)

ASV renders those verses....
“The Mighty One, God, Jehovah, the Mighty One, God, Jehovah, he knoweth; and Israel he shall know: if it be in rebellion, or if in trespass against Jehovah (save thou us not this day)” (Joshua 22:22)

“The Mighty One, God, Jehovah, hath spoken, And called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof." (Psalm 50:1)

The Jews never considered Yahweh (Jehovah) to be a polytheistic god.
Polytheism is evidence of false worship. Christendom's god is three, not one.
The plural in those verses is the 'plural of excellence'.....like the “Royal We” used by the monarchy.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yahweh has always been a monotheistic God to his faithful ones.

He was a Babylonian god.

Yahweh was never a Babylonian god.
Understanding Babylon’s origins gives us the clues about what “Babylon the great” is. So instead of being sidetracked by erroneous claims as to who Yahweh was, concentrate on what is happening now. “Babylon the great” is about to be thrown from the beast she has been so confidently riding for centuries, and utterly destroyed.
It is very important to understand what we need to do regarding this religious harlot....

Revelation 18:1-8 ESV.....
“After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast. For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”

This is a place where demons and every unclean thing (in God’s eyes), lurks. “All the nations” have been influenced by her activities. The spiritual “immorality” she commits is with the political and commercial systems of the world, benefiting from them and they in turn were enjoying her favor.....so it indicates that she is “in bed” with these two systems. (James 4:4)

The three systems that control satan’s world are the political, commercial and religious systems, no matter what nation they operate in. So “Babylon the great” is a religious system that is disgusting in God’s sight. It encompasses all false worship set up by satan in every nation. All can trace their beliefs back to original Babylon....and she has much blood on her hands. (Revelation 17:6; Revelation 18:24)

“Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed. As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, ‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.’ For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”

So now we have choices to make.....we must identify “Babylon the great” and follow through on God’s command for his “people” to remove ourselves from her clutches. The question is, how did God’s people get to be “in” Babylon the great to begin with?

When God’s ancient people were being grossly unfaithful to their God, he exiled them in ancient Babylon, leaving their homeland along with its temple in ruins. He removed them because they had broken their covenant with him. Whilst in exile in that pagan city, faithful Jews were exiled along with the unfaithful ones. That was a challenge, especially for the youth....those like Daniel and his three Hebrew companions, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, (better known as Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.)
For 70 years, their faith would be tested. Would they adopt the ways of the Babylonians or would they remain faithful to their God in spite of the prevailing religious beliefs and practices?

The Bible record shows that Daniel remained faithful his whole life and because God was with him, he enjoyed his religious freedom. But the Hebrews had enemies spurred on by jealousy. Daniel endured the lions den for continuing to pray to his God....and his three companions would endure a fiery furnace rather than to bow to a graven image. Their example is not in the Bible for nothing.

We too must check to see if our own beliefs are from the Bible or from Babylon the great...

 

[Davy]

The New Testament epistles have words like "remission of sins" and "sins may be blotted out" and "the forgiveness of sins" and "wash away thy sins" and "whose sins are covered" and "impute sin" and "are dead to sin" and "condemned sin in the flesh" and "take away their sins" and "Christ died for our sins" and "purged our sins..." The book of Romans begins talking about Jews and Gentiles being both under sin and this should not be anything new to us since both are still broken without the spirit of God. And yet for some mysterious reason I live on a planet where many Christians think their flesh is justified by the deeds of the law even after the book of Romans tells us plainly that everyone except the Christian is under sin (Romans 3:20 says Jews and Gentiles).

Romans tell us "sin is not imputed when there is no law" and "that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." And then there's verse 7 with "For he that is dead is freed from sin." I never understood Romans 6 because I was taught that I was a sinner saved by grace. Let's look at what Romans is saying: Christ died unto sin once and now he lives unto God. How are we who are still alive going to be able to likewise reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God? It seems to me it must be done through Jesus Christ our Lord. It's not about us or our broken selves. It's him we must function in. Here's the verse "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

It appears both Catholic and Protestant churches do not teach that "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Nor do they teach "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness." And so "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." I'm going to skip over Romans 7 because it tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to them who are into or know the law. And then by the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about human's and how they toy with their flesh.

What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

The verse in 2 Corinthians 5:21, is talking about the "righteousness of God in him." It's the "in him" that nobody seems to be able to understand. This whole thing functions "in him." It's in Christ and therefore in the new nature that is mentioned just a few verses above this in verse 17 where it says "new creature:" It's not that we do not sin in our old man nature. It's that we do not sin in the new man that we are told to put on. The churches have destroyed this idea by teaching we put on the new man by following the teachings of Jesus as we walk in our flesh. So this is a lost art.

In the book of Colossians, we read "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" We did not put it off. It was the circumcision of Christ. Two verses later we read "together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;..." Again, it's "in him" or "with him." I also want to get the book of Hebrews in here where we see Christ offered himself once "for this he did once" and not like the high priest who offered up the sacrifice daily. The Lord Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;..."

Peter has the same mindset as Paul when he writes in 1 Peter "that we, being dead to sins,..." Peter goes on to say that Christ suffered once for sins so as to bring us to God, and so this is why the Scripture reads "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" Again, the old man crucified and the new man put in its place. Peter again, "ceased from sin;..." Put that mindset on or as Peter writes "arm yourself likewise with the same mind:" Because he that has suffered in the flesh or was crucified in the flesh has put on the new man because the other one is dead. That new person "hath ceased from sin;..."

Yes we as Christians still... have a sin nature, and it's built into our flesh. In Romans 7 Paul pointed to it with the phrase "law of sin" in his fleshy members. Later modern New Testament revisions try to confuse this issue with philosophical terms like "sin nature" (NIV), but the reality is that via our flesh is the bounds that God set for us during this present world. Our flesh represents imperfection, and it always will, until we are done with it either at flesh death, or at the 'change' on the "last trump" with Christ's future return.

How do we as Christian then deal with this? Per 1 John 1, we are to repent to Christ of FUTURE SINS we may find ourselves doing, and get back to serving Christ Jesus. And repentance means doing our best not to do it again. We all struggle with bad habits, and with some bad habits it takes a while to break, but Lord Jesus can help us break it, but it takes discipline and Faith and prayer. The opposite of that are those listening to the devil's workers that say after having believed on Jesus and been baptized, we never need to repent of sins ever again.

 

[Johann]

The New Testament epistles have words like "remission of sins" and "sins may be blotted out" and "the forgiveness of sins" and "wash away thy sins" and "whose sins are covered" and "impute sin" and "are dead to sin" and "condemned sin in the flesh" and "take away their sins" and "Christ died for our sins" and "purged our sins..." The book of Romans begins talking about Jews and Gentiles being both under sin and this should not be anything new to us since both are still broken without the spirit of God. And yet for some mysterious reason I live on a planet where many Christians think their flesh is justified by the deeds of the law even after the book of Romans tells us plainly that everyone except the Christian is under sin (Romans 3:20 says Jews and Gentiles).

Romans tell us "sin is not imputed when there is no law" and "that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." And then there's verse 7 with "For he that is dead is freed from sin." I never understood Romans 6 because I was taught that I was a sinner saved by grace. Let's look at what Romans is saying: Christ died unto sin once and now he lives unto God. How are we who are still alive going to be able to likewise reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God? It seems to me it must be done through Jesus Christ our Lord. It's not about us or our broken selves. It's him we must function in. Here's the verse "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

It appears both Catholic and Protestant churches do not teach that "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Nor do they teach "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness." And so "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." I'm going to skip over Romans 7 because it tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to them who are into or know the law. And then by the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about human's and how they toy with their flesh.

What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

The verse in 2 Corinthians 5:21, is talking about the "righteousness of God in him." It's the "in him" that nobody seems to be able to understand. This whole thing functions "in him." It's in Christ and therefore in the new nature that is mentioned just a few verses above this in verse 17 where it says "new creature:" It's not that we do not sin in our old man nature. It's that we do not sin in the new man that we are told to put on. The churches have destroyed this idea by teaching we put on the new man by following the teachings of Jesus as we walk in our flesh. So this is a lost art.

In the book of Colossians, we read "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" We did not put it off. It was the circumcision of Christ. Two verses later we read "together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;..." Again, it's "in him" or "with him." I also want to get the book of Hebrews in here where we see Christ offered himself once "for this he did once" and not like the high priest who offered up the sacrifice daily. The Lord Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;..."

Peter has the same mindset as Paul when he writes in 1 Peter "that we, being dead to sins,..." Peter goes on to say that Christ suffered once for sins so as to bring us to God, and so this is why the Scripture reads "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" Again, the old man crucified and the new man put in its place. Peter again, "ceased from sin;..." Put that mindset on or as Peter writes "arm yourself likewise with the same mind:" Because he that has suffered in the flesh or was crucified in the flesh has put on the new man because the other one is dead. That new person "hath ceased from sin;..."

Question

Are you both a sinner and a saint? Or, are you a saint who sometimes sins? According to Romans 6, you are a saint who sometimes sins.

 

[Johann]

How do we as Christian then deal with this? Per 1 John 1, we are to repent to Christ of FUTURE SINS

...and here I thought that at the cross our future sins were also dealt with...or that we were set free from past, present and future sins, correct?

 

[Johann]

Romans 6.
Those in Christ no longer have a ''sin nature''.
Thats what it means to be born again, or reborn in Christ.

...and yet followers of the Way do commit acts of sin, where does that come from?
Christians who have been born from above are committing "acts" of sin, is this possible, or not?

 

[Johann]

Romans 6.
Those in Christ no longer have a ''sin nature''.
Thats what it means to be born again, or reborn in Christ.

Question
Christ was sinless and His righteousness is imputed unto us, does it mean His sinlessness was also imputed to us?