Do We Still Have A Sin Nature...

[Peterlag]

The New Testament epistles have words like "remission of sins" and "sins may be blotted out" and "the forgiveness of sins" and "wash away thy sins" and "whose sins are covered" and "impute sin" and "are dead to sin" and "condemned sin in the flesh" and "take away their sins" and "Christ died for our sins" and "purged our sins..." The book of Romans begins talking about Jews and Gentiles being both under sin and this should not be anything new to us since both are still broken without the spirit of God. And yet for some mysterious reason I live on a planet where many Christians think their flesh is justified by the deeds of the law even after the book of Romans tells us plainly that everyone except the Christian is under sin (Romans 3:20 says Jews and Gentiles).

Romans tell us "sin is not imputed when there is no law" and "that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." And then there's verse 7 with "For he that is dead is freed from sin." I never understood Romans 6 because I was taught that I was a sinner saved by grace. Let's look at what Romans is saying: Christ died unto sin once and now he lives unto God. How are we who are still alive going to be able to likewise reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God? It seems to me it must be done through Jesus Christ our Lord. It's not about us or our broken selves. It's him we must function in. Here's the verse "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

It appears both Catholic and Protestant churches do not teach that "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Nor do they teach "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness." And so "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." I'm going to skip over Romans 7 because it tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to them who are into or know the law. And then by the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about human's and how they toy with their flesh.

What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

The verse in 2 Corinthians 5:21, is talking about the "righteousness of God in him." It's the "in him" that nobody seems to be able to understand. This whole thing functions "in him." It's in Christ and therefore in the new nature that is mentioned just a few verses above this in verse 17 where it says "new creature:" It's not that we do not sin in our old man nature. It's that we do not sin in the new man that we are told to put on. The churches have destroyed this idea by teaching we put on the new man by following the teachings of Jesus as we walk in our flesh. So this is a lost art.

In the book of Colossians, we read "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" We did not put it off. It was the circumcision of Christ. Two verses later we read "together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;..." Again, it's "in him" or "with him." I also want to get the book of Hebrews in here where we see Christ offered himself once "for this he did once" and not like the high priest who offered up the sacrifice daily. The Lord Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;..."

Peter has the same mindset as Paul when he writes in 1 Peter "that we, being dead to sins,..." Peter goes on to say that Christ suffered once for sins so as to bring us to God, and so this is why the Scripture reads "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" Again, the old man crucified and the new man put in its place. Peter again, "ceased from sin;..." Put that mindset on or as Peter writes "arm yourself likewise with the same mind:" Because he that has suffered in the flesh or was crucified in the flesh has put on the new man because the other one is dead. That new person "hath ceased from sin;..."

 

[Randy Kluth]

The New Testament epistles have words like "remission of sins" and "sins may be blotted out" and "the forgiveness of sins" and "wash away thy sins" and "whose sins are covered" and "impute sin" and "are dead to sin" and "condemned sin in the flesh" and "take away their sins" and "Christ died for our sins" and "purged our sins..." The book of Romans begins talking about Jews and Gentiles being both under sin and this should not be anything new to us since both are still broken without the spirit of God. And yet for some mysterious reason I live on a planet where many Christians think their flesh is justified by the deeds of the law even after the book of Romans tells us plainly that everyone except the Christian is under sin (Romans 3:20 says Jews and Gentiles).

Romans tell us "sin is not imputed when there is no law" and "that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." And then there's verse 7 with "For he that is dead is freed from sin." I never understood Romans 6 because I was taught that I was a sinner saved by grace. Let's look at what Romans is saying: Christ died unto sin once and now he lives unto God. How are we who are still alive going to be able to likewise reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God? It seems to me it must be done through Jesus Christ our Lord. It's not about us or our broken selves. It's him we must function in. Here's the verse "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

It appears both Catholic and Protestant churches do not teach that "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Nor do they teach "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness." And so "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." I'm going to skip over Romans 7 because it tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to them who are into or know the law. And then by the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about human's and how they toy with their flesh.

What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

The verse in 2 Corinthians 5:21, is talking about the "righteousness of God in him." It's the "in him" that nobody seems to be able to understand. This whole thing functions "in him." It's in Christ and therefore in the new nature that is mentioned just a few verses above this in verse 17 where it says "new creature:" It's not that we do not sin in our old man nature. It's that we do not sin in the new man that we are told to put on. The churches have destroyed this idea by teaching we put on the new man by following the teachings of Jesus as we walk in our flesh. So this is a lost art.

In the book of Colossians, we read "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" We did not put it off. It was the circumcision of Christ. Two verses later we read "together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;..." Again, it's "in him" or "with him." I also want to get the book of Hebrews in here where we see Christ offered himself once "for this he did once" and not like the high priest who offered up the sacrifice daily. The Lord Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;..."

Peter has the same mindset as Paul when he writes in 1 Peter "that we, being dead to sins,..." Peter goes on to say that Christ suffered once for sins so as to bring us to God, and so this is why the Scripture reads "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" Again, the old man crucified and the new man put in its place. Peter again, "ceased from sin;..." Put that mindset on or as Peter writes "arm yourself likewise with the same mind:" Because he that has suffered in the flesh or was crucified in the flesh has put on the new man because the other one is dead. That new person "hath ceased from sin;..."

I understand your confusion, but the problem is with understanding the words being used in these various Bible passages. There is a distinction between living *in* bodies of flesh and choosing to live *after* the body of flesh. One indicates we still have sin in our bodies, and the other indicates we choose to live in sin while we live in our sinful bodies.

So yes, as Christians we do choose to live after Christ, and not after the sinful flesh. But that doesn't mean we're sinless--not even while we're walking in Christ.

What it means is that when we choose to live after Christ we are not choosing a life of living after the sinful flesh, but rather, a life of living after the righteousness of Christ. It is enough to choose to live after Christ, without expectation of our own sinless perfection. That is impossible.

When these passages speak of the removal of sin, it is actually speaking of the annulment of Satan's accusations against us. It is speaking of the removal of legal obstacles to our obtaining eternal life.

Better said, it is the removal of *sin's accusation.* In the practical sense, it results in our obedience to Christ with the accompanying crippling of sin's dominance in our lives.

We do not immediately have the Sin Nature removed from our bodies of flesh. We continue to have inclinations towards fighting against God's word in our lives. We just have to combat these negative inner impulses to "put on Christ." The fact this is a fight at all indicates sin is still within us.

The ultimate removal of sin from our lives takes place at the resurrection. We presently have a down payment of Christ's righteousness in our lives so that we may make use of it and display his righteousness within us. We show our current dominance over sin as we "live in righteousness."

But this will be rewarded, in the end, with a fully new body, free of all taint of sin. That is our hope.

 

[Brakelite]

"Do we still have a sin nature?"

No, unless you believe you do.

"Are we dead to the law?"

Yes, unless you believe you are alive.

"But I'm resurrected with Christ, so I must be alive".

Then the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in you (Romans 8:4) by grace and the power of Christ's resurrected life. Unless you believe it isn't. Then it won't be.

 

[bbyrd009]

"Do we still have a sin nature?"

No, unless you believe you do.

"Are we dead to the law?"

Yes, unless you believe you are alive.

"But I'm resurrected with Christ, so I must be alive".

Then the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in you (Romans 8:4) by grace and the power of Christ's resurrected life. Unless you believe it isn't. Then it won't be.

these strike me as a fail bc one might believe any number of things; doesnt make any of them true?

 

[bbyrd009]

I understand your confusion

?
interesting first response, hmm
where did you note any confusion there, if you would?
im not so snappy in the am lol, still early for me

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm going to skip over Romans 7 because it tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to them who are into or know the law

might be better to concentrate on it?
lol

i say that bc near as i can tell evabody in here requires blood for transgressions eh

 

[Peterlag]

I understand your confusion, but the problem is with understanding the words being used in these various Bible passages. There is a distinction between living *in* bodies of flesh and choosing to live *after* the body of flesh. One indicates we still have sin in our bodies, and the other indicates we choose to live in sin while we live in our sinful bodies.

So yes, as Christians we do choose to live after Christ, and not after the sinful flesh. But that doesn't mean we're sinless--not even while we're walking in Christ.

What it means is that when we choose to live after Christ we are not choosing a life of living after the sinful flesh, but rather, a life of living after the righteousness of Christ. It is enough to choose to live after Christ, without expectation of our own sinless perfection. That is impossible.

When these passages speak of the removal of sin, it is actually speaking of the annulment of Satan's accusations against us. It is speaking of the removal of legal obstacles to our obtaining eternal life.

Better said, it is the removal of *sin's accusation.* In the practical sense, it results in our obedience to Christ with the accompanying crippling of sin's dominance in our lives.

We do not immediately have the Sin Nature removed from our bodies of flesh. We continue to have inclinations towards fighting against God's word in our lives. We just have to combat these negative inner impulses to "put on Christ." The fact this is a fight at all indicates sin is still within us.

The ultimate removal of sin from our lives takes place at the resurrection. We presently have a down payment of Christ's righteousness in our lives so that we may make use of it and display his righteousness within us. We show our current dominance over sin as we "live in righteousness."

But this will be rewarded, in the end, with a fully new body, free of all taint of sin. That is our hope.

I disagree.

It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I disagree.

It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

So you think you're sinless because you're a Christian? That's laughable.

Paul said that he had not yet arrived, that we live in temporary "tents" for bodies (1), that the Spirit wars against the flesh in our Christian lives. John said that anybody who says they're sinless is a liar, and makes God a liar. (2)

The old self is *not* entirely obliterated--only the power of sin to convict of eternal judgment has been obliterated and is evidence by our ability to obey God and to show Christ at every turn. This does not require sinlessness! (3)

James and Paul both commanded us to not give place to the devil, nor to worldly passions. But you don't believe we're in such a war? (4)

When we're saved, we do not remain the same. We do become new creatures *in Christ.* But our lives are not yet here on the earth in its full sinless state, but rather, hidden with Christ in heaven. (5)

Your theology is terrible. It may sound good to you, but it doesn't work in reality, and will result in your own self-condemnation, or with your attempt to completely escape from reality.

(1) 2 Cor 5.4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

(2) 1 John 1.10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

(3) Col 2.13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

(3) Heb 2.14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

(4) James 4.What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?...
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

(4) Eph 4.27 and do not give the devil a foothold.

(4) Gal 5.24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

(5) 2 Cor 5.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

(5) Col 3.3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

As committed, obedient Christians we choose to live in righteousness, but can never do so without any taint of sin, because it is in our bodies of sin. We are influenced by the presence of spiritual sin within our bodies.

When we engage in sin in a greater way, we feel condemnation, and require cleansing from the Lord. This is part of the normal Christian walk. Our hope is to avoid the greater sins, though we cannot completely expunge sin from our lives while we continue to live in these bodies of sin.

Rom 8.10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

2 Cor 7.1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

1 John 3.19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.

 

[Peterlag]

So you think you're sinless because you're a Christian? That's laughable.

Paul said that he had not yet arrived, that we live in temporary "tents" for bodies (1), that the Spirit wars against the flesh in our Christian lives. John said that anybody who says they're sinless is a liar, and makes God a liar. (2)

The old self is *not* entirely obliterated--only the power of sin to convict of eternal judgment has been obliterated and is evidence by our ability to obey God and to show Christ at every turn. This does not require sinlessness! (3)

James and Paul both commanded us to not give place to the devil, nor to worldly passions. But you don't believe we're in such a war? (4)

When we're saved, we do not remain the same. We do become new creatures *in Christ.* But our lives are not yet here on the earth in its full sinless state, but rather, hidden with Christ in heaven. (5)

Your theology is terrible. It may sound good to you, but it doesn't work in reality, and will result in your own self-condemnation, or with your attempt to completely escape from reality.

(1) 2 Cor 5.4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

(2) 1 John 1.10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

(3) Col 2.13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

(3) Heb 2.14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

(4) James 4.What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?...
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

(4) Eph 4.27 and do not give the devil a foothold.

(4) Gal 5.24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

(5) 2 Cor 5.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

(5) Col 3.3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

As committed, obedient Christians we choose to live in righteousness, but can never do so without any taint of sin, because it is in our bodies of sin. We are influenced by the presence of spiritual sin within our bodies.

When we engage in sin in a greater way, we feel condemnation, and require cleansing from the Lord. This is part of the normal Christian walk. Our hope is to avoid the greater sins, though we cannot completely expunge sin from our lives while we continue to live in these bodies of sin.

Rom 8.10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

2 Cor 7.1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

1 John 3.19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.

I can only comment on one verse at a time so lets do your number 5.

But our lives are not yet here on the earth in its full sinless state, but rather, hidden with Christ in heaven. (5)

These verses speak about our time right now and not for some time into the future. We see this with statements like "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law." Well, I'm not under the law right now. Or "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not." I'm born of God right now. Or "being made free from sin, and become servants to God." I'm a servant to God right now.

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

 

[Brakelite]

these strike me as a fail bc one might believe any number of things; doesnt make any of them true?

But such things are established by faith. If you don't believe you can overcome sin, then actually doing so, for you, becomes impossible doesn't it? Therefore you'll believe such a concept isn't true. We live by faith. Righteousness comes by faith. If we believe we have a sin nature, that God's word doesn't mean what it says it means, that the old man is dead with Christ, then what chance do we have of overcoming sin? Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The essence of things not seen.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Beware of any who push atheir doctrine that tells you you still have a sin nature when you are redeemed in Christ.

They have that sin nature. Those redeemed in Christ do not. 1 John 3:9

Romans 6, Colossians 3, 2nd Corinthians 5.

The New Testament epistles have words like "remission of sins" and "sins may be blotted out" and "the forgiveness of sins" and "wash away thy sins" and "whose sins are covered" and "impute sin" and "are dead to sin" and "condemned sin in the flesh" and "take away their sins" and "Christ died for our sins" and "purged our sins..." The book of Romans begins talking about Jews and Gentiles being both under sin and this should not be anything new to us since both are still broken without the spirit of God. And yet for some mysterious reason I live on a planet where many Christians think their flesh is justified by the deeds of the law even after the book of Romans tells us plainly that everyone except the Christian is under sin (Romans 3:20 says Jews and Gentiles).

Romans tell us "sin is not imputed when there is no law" and "that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." And then there's verse 7 with "For he that is dead is freed from sin." I never understood Romans 6 because I was taught that I was a sinner saved by grace. Let's look at what Romans is saying: Christ died unto sin once and now he lives unto God. How are we who are still alive going to be able to likewise reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God? It seems to me it must be done through Jesus Christ our Lord. It's not about us or our broken selves. It's him we must function in. Here's the verse "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

It appears both Catholic and Protestant churches do not teach that "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Nor do they teach "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness." And so "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." I'm going to skip over Romans 7 because it tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to them who are into or know the law. And then by the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about human's and how they toy with their flesh.

What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

The verse in 2 Corinthians 5:21, is talking about the "righteousness of God in him." It's the "in him" that nobody seems to be able to understand. This whole thing functions "in him." It's in Christ and therefore in the new nature that is mentioned just a few verses above this in verse 17 where it says "new creature:" It's not that we do not sin in our old man nature. It's that we do not sin in the new man that we are told to put on. The churches have destroyed this idea by teaching we put on the new man by following the teachings of Jesus as we walk in our flesh. So this is a lost art.

In the book of Colossians, we read "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" We did not put it off. It was the circumcision of Christ. Two verses later we read "together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;..." Again, it's "in him" or "with him." I also want to get the book of Hebrews in here where we see Christ offered himself once "for this he did once" and not like the high priest who offered up the sacrifice daily. The Lord Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;..."

Peter has the same mindset as Paul when he writes in 1 Peter "that we, being dead to sins,..." Peter goes on to say that Christ suffered once for sins so as to bring us to God, and so this is why the Scripture reads "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" Again, the old man crucified and the new man put in its place. Peter again, "ceased from sin;..." Put that mindset on or as Peter writes "arm yourself likewise with the same mind:" Because he that has suffered in the flesh or was crucified in the flesh has put on the new man because the other one is dead. That new person "hath ceased from sin;..."

 

[Peterlag]

Beware of any who push atheir doctrine that tells you you still have a sin nature when you are redeemed in Christ.

They have that sin nature. Those redeemed in Christ do not. 1 John 3:9

Romans 6, Colossians 3, 2nd Corinthians 5.

I agree with you. Here's my take...

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

 

[Peterlag]

But such things are established by faith. If you don't believe you can overcome sin, then actually doing so, for you, becomes impossible doesn't it? Therefore you'll believe such a concept isn't true. We live by faith. Righteousness comes by faith. If we believe we have a sin nature, that God's word doesn't mean what it says it means, that the old man is dead with Christ, then what chance do we have of overcoming sin? Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The essence of things not seen.

I agree.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Beware of any who push atheir doctrine that tells you you still have a sin nature when you are redeemed in Christ.

They have that sin nature. Those redeemed in Christ do not.

I'm pretty sure that Paul was redeemed in Christ, but he still had a problem with his "sin nature".

Romans 7:14-25....
"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing. For I do not practice what I wish, but I do what I hate. 16 However, if I do what I do not wish, I agree that the Law is fine. 17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that resides in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for I have the desire to do what is fine but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20 If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.

21 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law."

Perhaps we should investigate what "sin nature" actually means? What was "sin's law" that was in his flesh?
What do you think Paul means?

 

[Peterlag]

I'm pretty sure that Paul was redeemed in Christ, but he still had a problem with his "sin nature".

Romans 7:14-25....
"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing. For I do not practice what I wish, but I do what I hate. 16 However, if I do what I do not wish, I agree that the Law is fine. 17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that resides in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for I have the desire to do what is fine but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20 If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.

21 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law."

Perhaps we should investigate what "sin nature" actually means? What was "sin's law" that was in his flesh?
What do you think Paul means?

In my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I can only comment on one verse at a time so lets do your number 5.

But our lives are not yet here on the earth in its full sinless state, but rather, hidden with Christ in heaven. (5)

These verses speak about our time right now and not for some time into the future. We see this with statements like "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law." Well, I'm not under the law right now. Or "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not." I'm born of God right now. Or "being made free from sin, and become servants to God." I'm a servant to God right now.

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

There are a number of problems here, but I appreciate the broad, historical look at this. The "bondage of the will," as advocated by Luther, tells a truth imperfectly in my opinion. He rightly admits the power of sin in our flesh *presently,* so that we cannot avoid sinning in some measure. Neither does he deny the power of grace to *overcome* sin as Christians, thus liberating the soul.

Luther was concerned to show that those who choose to live non-Christian lives are powerless to be liberated by grace. This is a truism--if you don't choose to live by grace you cannot benefit from grace and be liberated by it to do the works of Christ.

But Luther used language that seemed to rob the human will of free will, which I wouldn't agree with. Non-Christians and Christians alike can choose to obey Christ, indicating that they really do have free will, even if they can't display Christ in their lives unless they first submit to his revelations within, in one way or another.

I believe Irenaeus and Augustine only taught the Sin Nature as it was taught in the Bible and by the apostles. Jesus indicated to his apostles that they needed their feet to be washed, even though they had been cleansed by his word. In obeying Christ they were clean. But they still required daily cleansing, symbolized by the cleansing of their feet in their daily walk.

I gave you a lot of Scriptures. In them, the spirit is not viewed as sinless. Rather, our inheritance of a sinless nature is kept in heaven for us with Christ, to be given to us at the proper time. You cannot separate your spirit from your flesh--both are likewise sin-infected, and will constantly gravitate away from God's word without your proper management of this tendency. You are able to overcome and to display Christ, but you must choose against your carnal nature to prevail.

Your argument seems to be that our "new creation" exists "right now," and not in the future resurrection. But Paul called this a "down payment" on our future inheritance. The inheritance comes later, in the future, and not "right now!" And I provided several Scriptures to show that we are to be actively fighting this war against the tendency of sin, or the inclination of sin, to enable the Spirit of God within us to prevail over our bodies of sin. We prevail not by completely ridding ourselves of our sinful spirits and flesh "right now." Rather, we prevail by *overcoming* our Sin Nature by choosing to do right even in the presence of this sin tendency.

If you resist Satan, this is indication that sin is within us, just as God said it was within Cain, trying to prevent him from doing right. But God said he could do right, if he so chose to live that way. So also, we must choose to live for Christ, even in the presence of these bodies of sin, which are *presently* with us, and will be with us, until our future inheritance.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

I'm pretty sure that Paul was redeemed in Christ, but he still had a problem with his "sin nature".

Romans 7:14-25....
"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing. For I do not practice what I wish, but I do what I hate. 16 However, if I do what I do not wish, I agree that the Law is fine. 17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that resides in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for I have the desire to do what is fine but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20 If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.

21 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law."

Perhaps we should investigate what "sin nature" actually means? What was "sin's law" that was in his flesh?
What do you think Paul means?

I know when Paul is giving a personal testimony, compared to God's gospel.
Paul's trials don't abridge God's gospel.

Paul was a pharisee. Even after the Damascus road. What did Jesus say of Pharisee's? Even Paul knew he was being tested.

His tests, fail or pass , do not impugn nor detract from the power of the gospel.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

I agree with you. Here's my take...

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

The worst thing that ever assailed the Gospel truth of Christ was the enemy's church and its Demonic agents.

All intention to weave confusion into the truth of God.
It's why ego and self is primary in that church doctrine. The power of man.

 

[bbyrd009]

But such things are established by faith. If you don't believe you can overcome sin, then actually doing so, for you, becomes impossible doesn't it? Therefore you'll believe such a concept isn't true. We live by faith. Righteousness comes by faith. If we believe we have a sin nature, that God's word doesn't mean what it says it means, that the old man is dead with Christ, then what chance do we have of overcoming sin? Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The essence of things not seen.

well, seems to me that you are talking about actual beliefs, rather than beliefs about the future which i meant to infer, so i agree

 

[farouk]

In my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Hi @Peterlag Hebrews 7.12 says the law was changed. Hebrews 7.19 says that what we now have is better than the law.