Do We Still Have A Sin Nature...

[Peterlag]

The worst thing that ever assailed the Gospel truth of Christ was the enemy's church and its Demonic agents.

All intention to weave confusion into the truth of God.
It's why ego and self is primary in that church doctrine. The power of man.

Boy you got that right.

 

[Peterlag]

There are a number of problems here, but I appreciate the broad, historical look at this. The "bondage of the will," as advocated by Luther, tells a truth imperfectly in my opinion. He rightly admits the power of sin in our flesh *presently,* so that we cannot avoid sinning in some measure. Neither does he deny the power of grace to *overcome* sin as Christians, thus liberating the soul.

Luther was concerned to show that those who choose to live non-Christian lives are powerless to be liberated by grace. This is a truism--if you don't choose to live by grace you cannot benefit from grace and be liberated by it to do the works of Christ.

But Luther used language that seemed to rob the human will of free will, which I wouldn't agree with. Non-Christians and Christians alike can choose to obey Christ, indicating that they really do have free will, even if they can't display Christ in their lives unless they first submit to his revelations within, in one way or another.

I believe Irenaeus and Augustine only taught the Sin Nature as it was taught in the Bible and by the apostles. Jesus indicated to his apostles that they needed their feet to be washed, even though they had been cleansed by his word. In obeying Christ they were clean. But they still required daily cleansing, symbolized by the cleansing of their feet in their daily walk.

I gave you a lot of Scriptures. In them, the spirit is not viewed as sinless. Rather, our inheritance of a sinless nature is kept in heaven for us with Christ, to be given to us at the proper time. You cannot separate your spirit from your flesh--both are likewise sin-infected, and will constantly gravitate away from God's word without your proper management of this tendency. You are able to overcome and to display Christ, but you must choose against your carnal nature to prevail.

Your argument seems to be that our "new creation" exists "right now," and not in the future resurrection. But Paul called this a "down payment" on our future inheritance. The inheritance comes later, in the future, and not "right now!" And I provided several Scriptures to show that we are to be actively fighting this war against the tendency of sin, or the inclination of sin, to enable the Spirit of God within us to prevail over our bodies of sin. We prevail not by completely ridding ourselves of our sinful spirits and flesh "right now." Rather, we prevail by *overcoming* our Sin Nature by choosing to do right even in the presence of this sin tendency.

If you resist Satan, this is indication that sin is within us, just as God said it was within Cain, trying to prevent him from doing right. But God said he could do right, if he so chose to live that way. So also, we must choose to live for Christ, even in the presence of these bodies of sin, which are *presently* with us, and will be with us, until our future inheritance.

We are not on the same page. As far as I'm concerned I'm walking in the spirit and have the righteousness of God right now.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You I believe are walking in your flesh and trying to deal with it. Yes, this is a down payment because there's more coming. But I'm righteous right now. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them.

Romans 7 is Paul speaking in the first person.....he is not speaking specifically about those who wanted to adhere to the old covenant, but for himself personally.

Romans 10:4....Paul clearly preached that Christ was the end of the Law.
"For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes." (NET)

Galatians 3:10-14...
"For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” 11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. 12 But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith." (NET)

Anyone who wanted to live by the Law would be judged according to it.....the law was a "curse" because no one could keep it....it was a daily reminder of their need for the savior who would free them from the curse by giving his life for theirs.

Paul wrote to the Colossians...
"And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions. 14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross." (NET)

The Law died with Christ.

and...

Ephesians 2:14-18...in speaking of the "wall of partition" and the "hostility" between the Jewish Christians and their Gentile brothers, Paul said....
"For he is our peace, the one who made both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility, 15 when he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace, 16 and to reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by which the hostility has been killed. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, 18 so that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. " (NET)

They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

That is not the way it reads to me.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

I don't know what you think those scriptures mean, but sin is something we are stuck with as long as we remain in the flesh we inherited from Adam. Only the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect will undo all the damage that satan accomplished in Eden. God's first purpose for the human race will still go ahead.....it was the reason why he put us here on earth in the first place. (Isaiah 55:11)

Despite our sinful nature, the flesh is under our control, like a vehicle we drive with both hands on the steering wheel.....we can make a conscious choice NOT to do what the law forbids, or break the law and face the consequences. No one forces any of us to break the law. We can choose to go against God's commands, or to water down his requirements, but it wont get us anywhere. He does not accept excuses.

The sin born in us can be powerful as was demonstrated in the case of Cain and Abel.....within one generation a murderer was produced....such is the power of that inheritance. (Romans 5:12) The further away we get from our original perfection, and left to our own devices, the worse it can become. Look at the state of the world! We have more sin with less excuse than at any other time in history. The Christian message has been preached in all the world as Jesus commanded (Matthew 24:14)....and yet we see nothing but corruption, wickedness and utter chaos even in lands that claim to be "Christian".

 

[Aunty Jane]

I know when Paul is giving a personal testimony, compared to God's gospel.
Paul's trials don't abridge God's gospel.

Paul was a pharisee. Even after the Damascus road. What did Jesus say of Pharisee's? Even Paul knew he was being tested.

Paul's response to the events on the road to Damascus was not Pharisaical at all though, was it? He humbly submitted to Christ and took on his role as an "apostle to the nations" in earnest. He was contrite and humbled by his choosing and always mindful of his former course of action in persecuting the Christians, even standing by when Stephen was stoned to death.
He repented and was forgiven, determined to somehow make it up to his God and to his Master Jesus Christ.

He was not taught by the other apostles, but by the resurrected Jesus himself. He was the only apostle who was educated and assigned to take the message of the Kingdom to the men of the nations, especially is his discourse to the "men of Athens" a masterful piece of public speaking to the educated among them at the Ar·e·opʹa·gus. (Acts 17:22-23) God saw his zeal for true worship and redirected it. Very few get that sort of 'tap on the shoulder'.

His tests, fail or pass , do not impugn nor detract from the power of the gospel.

His testimony contained in the NT is there for us all to benefit. Nothing he wrote fights with the gospels....only by those who misinterpret or misunderstand what he wrote.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We are not on the same page. As far as I'm concerned I'm walking in the spirit and have the righteousness of God right now.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Yes, we're not on the same page because you believe that Paul, in saying we have righteousness now, means that we have *sinless* righteousness now, when Paul only indicated we have access to a righteousness that *saves.* All men have a measure of righteousness, but the only righteousness that *saves* is the righteousness that comes when we embrace Christ as Lord. Then we have righteousness coupled with forgiveness, enabling us to inherit eternal life.

So saying we have Christ's righteousness is *not* saying we have *sinless* righteousness. It is only saying that we have righteousness that *saves.* It is a righteousness that we have access to, enabling us to war against our passions and overcome our sinful inclinations. But we are not rid of the Sin Nature until we inherit our sinless bodies at the resurrection, or simply when we die.

You I believe are walking in your flesh and trying to deal with it. Yes, this is a down payment because there's more coming. But I'm righteous right now. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

On the contrary, our new life in Christ does not eliminate the body of sin that we live in until the resurrection. You sin, just like every other human being on the planet, Christian and non-Christian. To say otherwise causes you to call God a liar. I didn't say that--the Apostle John said that in 1 John 1.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

No, you're still in the Adamic, sin-cursed body of flesh. You just aren't living in the flesh if you're living by the Spirit of Christ. What Christ accomplished at the cross was the right to give you a righteousness no longer subject to termination. Not even your death will be able to cancel your righteousness, since you are now qualified to rise from the dead.

Christ did those things to show his indifference to the claim of Satan upon our lives. He died, and no longer counted the sins against those who have sinned against him, assuming they repent and receive his life in place of their own carnal wishes. This does not re-make us instantly, though it does give us this righteousness instantly. But the resurrection and the disposal of the old body of sin comes later. Sorry you can't see that!

 

[Peterlag]

Yes, we're not on the same page because you believe that Paul, in saying we have righteousness now, means that we have *sinless* righteousness now, when Paul only indicated we have access to a righteousness that *saves.* All men have a measure of righteousness, but the only righteousness that *saves* is the righteousness that comes when we embrace Christ as Lord. Then we have righteousness coupled with forgiveness, enabling us to inherit eternal life.

So saying we have Christ's righteousness is *not* saying we have *sinless* righteousness. It is only saying that we have righteousness that *saves.* It is a righteousness that we have access to, enabling us to war against our passions and overcome our sinful inclinations. But we are not rid of the Sin Nature until we inherit our sinless bodies at the resurrection, or simply when we die.



On the contrary, our new life in Christ does not eliminate the body of sin that we live in until the resurrection. You sin, just like every other human being on the planet, Christian and non-Christian. To say otherwise causes you to call God a liar. I didn't say that--the Apostle John said that in 1 John 1.



No, you're still in the Adamic, sin-cursed body of flesh. You just aren't living in the flesh if you're living by the Spirit of Christ. What Christ accomplished at the cross was the right to give you a righteousness no longer subject to termination. Not even your death will be able to cancel your righteousness, since you are now qualified to rise from the dead.

Christ did those things to show his indifference to the claim of Satan upon our lives. He died, and no longer counted the sins against those who have sinned against him, assuming they repent and receive his life in place of their own carnal wishes. This does not re-make us instantly, though it does give us this righteousness instantly. But the resurrection and the disposal of the old body of sin comes later. Sorry you can't see that!

I see this 1 John chapter 1 and 2 as we are either walking in our old dead nature if we are into sin. Or we are walking in the spirit if we are not into sin.

Chapter 1
6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
6. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.

7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
7. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.

8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
8. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.

9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
9. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.

10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
10. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.

Chapter 2
1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
1. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.

2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
2. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
3. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.

4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
4. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.

5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."
5. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.

6 "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
6. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

 

[Peterlag]

Romans 7 is Paul speaking in the first person.....he is not speaking specifically about those who wanted to adhere to the old covenant, but for himself personally.

Romans 10:4....Paul clearly preached that Christ was the end of the Law.
"For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes." (NET)

Galatians 3:10-14...
"For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” 11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. 12 But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith." (NET)

Anyone who wanted to live by the Law would be judged according to it.....the law was a "curse" because no one could keep it....it was a daily reminder of their need for the savior who would free them from the curse by giving his life for theirs.

Paul wrote to the Colossians...
"And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions. 14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross." (NET)

The Law died with Christ.

and...

Ephesians 2:14-18...in speaking of the "wall of partition" and the "hostility" between the Jewish Christians and their Gentile brothers, Paul said....
"For he is our peace, the one who made both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility, 15 when he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace, 16 and to reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by which the hostility has been killed. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, 18 so that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. " (NET)


That is not the way it reads to me.


I don't know what you think those scriptures mean, but sin is something we are stuck with as long as we remain in the flesh we inherited from Adam. Only the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect will undo all the damage that satan accomplished in Eden. God's first purpose for the human race will still go ahead.....it was the reason why he put us here on earth in the first place. (Isaiah 55:11)

Despite our sinful nature, the flesh is under our control, like a vehicle we drive with both hands on the steering wheel.....we can make a conscious choice NOT to do what the law forbids, or break the law and face the consequences. No one forces any of us to break the law. We can choose to go against God's commands, or to water down his requirements, but it wont get us anywhere. He does not accept excuses.

The sin born in us can be powerful as was demonstrated in the case of Cain and Abel.....within one generation a murderer was produced....such is the power of that inheritance. (Romans 5:12) The further away we get from our original perfection, and left to our own devices, the worse it can become. Look at the state of the world! We have more sin with less excuse than at any other time in history. The Christian message has been preached in all the world as Jesus commanded (Matthew 24:14)....and yet we see nothing but corruption, wickedness and utter chaos even in lands that claim to be "Christian".

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

 

[quietthinker]

Do We Still Have A Sin Nature...
just ask anybody that knows me.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Paul's response to the events on the road to Damascus was not Pharisaical at all though, was it? He humbly submitted to Christ and took on his role as an "apostle to the nations" in earnest. He was contrite and humbled by his choosing and always mindful of his former course of action in persecuting the Christians, even standing by when Stephen was stoned to death.
He repented and was forgiven, determined to somehow make it up to his God and to his Master Jesus Christ.

He was not taught by the other apostles, but by the resurrected Jesus himself. He was the only apostle who was educated and assigned to take the message of the Kingdom to the men of the nations, especially is his discourse to the "men of Athens" a masterful piece of public speaking to the educated among them at the Ar·e·opʹa·gus. (Acts 17:22-23) God saw his zeal for true worship and redirected it. Very few get that sort of 'tap on the shoulder'.


His testimony contained in the NT is there for us all to benefit. Nothing he wrote fights with the gospels....only by those who misinterpret or misunderstand what he wrote.

He was a Pharisee when on the road to Damascus.

Some Christians insist they are still sinners in Christ. And insist Paul was too.

That may be a personal testimony however, that's not what Jesus accomplished from the cross for sinners salvation from sin . Nor is it what Paul actually confessed of himself. ''Paul's Hebrew Writing Style'', in the article linked below may be a great help.
Are Christians Sinners or Saints? - Berean Publishers
Also, excerpt from that article:
Conclusion

Never in the New Testament Scriptures are true Christians called sinners. Rather, sinners are those who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven and are subject to the wrath of God. Those who continue in sin do not know God and have never known him. Those who have received the knowledge of the truth but deliberately keep on sinning have only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (Hebrews 10:26).

It is neither accurate nor appropriate for a Christian to use the saying, “I'm just a sinner saved by grace.” It is both accurate and appropriate to declare: “I was a sinner, but have been saved by grace through faith.”

True believers are frequently referred to as saints. They are expected to live blameless and holy lives before God. Scripture reveals the special place in God's heart for his saints.

Sinners and saints will be judged according to what they have done. Saints will be rewarded according to what they have done. Sinners will be judged and condemned according to what they have done.

Tragically millions may be lost, deprived of salvation, because of false teaching, most notably the doctrine of unconditional eternal security, “once saved, always saved.” This doctrine also teaches that once one has had a salvation experience, all future sins are forgiven. This doctrine is false! It is foreign to the Scriptures.

Salvation is for those who receive Jesus Christ as their Lord. True followers of the Lord Jesus are obedient to his teachings and commands and do the will of God their father. Those who persevere to the end will enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Are Christians Sinners or Saints? - Berean Publishers

''Are True Christians Saints?

Part of the problem posed by the question, “Are Christians sinners or saints?” is that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the biblical definition of the word “saint.” It set up its own arbitrary standards for sainthood. The Roman Catholic definition has been so accepted by the world that the first definition of “saint” in Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary is the Roman Catholic definition. As a result, many people likely believe a saint can only be “one officially recognized, especially through canonization as preeminent for holiness.” The Roman Catholic Church declares that only certain people can be declared saints and only according to their evaluation and procedures.

However, Scripture says almost the opposite of that. Scripture repeatedly refers to all true believers as saints. This is the third definition in Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. How differently we should behave when we recognize that according to Scripture we are saints– if we have a saving faith.

The term “saints” occurs only 69 times in the entire Scripture. It may be helpful to look at a few of the Old Testament occurrences in order to see the consistency of the use of the term throughout Scripture.''

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see this 1 John chapter 1 and 2 as we are either walking in our old dead nature if we are into sin. Or we are walking in the spirit if we are not into sin.

I can't even read that it's so far from the spirit of what John was teaching! It's pure rationalization! No, John is saying that your denial that sin is in you makes God a liar.

The point is, we *overcome* sin--we do not obliterate it--not until the resurrection. We have to live in these sin-cursed bodies, overcoming the prevalence of the sin inclination until we die. That is our call, to show the power of God's grace to others who face the same choices.

We will always show this inclination to rebel, as long as we are in these earthen, corruptible bodies, but we do not have to follow through and rebel. We can rely on Christ's power of righteousness to do right. This brings glory to God, and gives witness to those who otherwise are in bondage to sin.

 

[Behold]

It's not that we do not sin in our old man nature. It's that we do not sin in the new man that we are told to put on. "

Reader,

The "New man" that you are to put on.... is not your New Creation IN Christ. As the New Creation, is the Born Again Spirit, and you dont "put that on". You have it already as your SON/Daughter of God...eternal status.. if you are born again and not just water baptized pretending you are a Christian.

This "NEW Creation"..... is what it means to be "in Christ"

However.....The New Man that you put on, is partly Ephesians 6, where you are told to put on the Helmet of Salvation, the Breastplate of Righteousness., etc.
You put THAT ON by making sure you are in the REAL FAITH.

But most of all, you are to "renew your mind", as that is how you "work out your Salvation".
This is to understand God's perspective of you as a Spiritual Son of God, and to exist in that right mind.
The un-renewed mind, is to see yourself not exactly as a Son of God, become a New Creation, as "the righteousness of God in Christ".
But rather, its to SEE YOURSELF<, to think of yourself as a SAVED SINNER, who will sin and confess.
That is the CARNAL mind, "the mind of the flesh" which opposes the "renewed mind",..... and a believer has to work out >in your FAITH< your understanding that you are not your body and you are not your mind.......as the "body is dead because of sin", and the mind is not born again, and has to be RENEWED.

So, what is left?
Its only the BORN AGAIN Spirit that is "In Christ"..."One With God".........a "new Creation".
That, is the Son/Daughter of God, and you have to SEE YOURSELF as only THIS, at all times.... so that your understanding of "new Creation in Christ", is the same perspective that God always has regarding all the born again.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Romans 7 is Paul speaking in the first person.....he is not speaking specifically about those who wanted to adhere to the old covenant, but for himself personally.

Romans 10:4....Paul clearly preached that Christ was the end of the Law.
"For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes." (NET)

Galatians 3:10-14...
"For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” 11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith. 12 But the law is not based on faith, but the one who does the works of the law will live by them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith." (NET)

Anyone who wanted to live by the Law would be judged according to it.....the law was a "curse" because no one could keep it....it was a daily reminder of their need for the savior who would free them from the curse by giving his life for theirs.

Paul wrote to the Colossians...
"And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions. 14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross." (NET)

The Law died with Christ.

and...

Ephesians 2:14-18...in speaking of the "wall of partition" and the "hostility" between the Jewish Christians and their Gentile brothers, Paul said....
"For he is our peace, the one who made both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility, 15 when he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace, 16 and to reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by which the hostility has been killed. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, 18 so that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. " (NET)


That is not the way it reads to me.


I don't know what you think those scriptures mean, but sin is something we are stuck with as long as we remain in the flesh we inherited from Adam. Only the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect will undo all the damage that satan accomplished in Eden. God's first purpose for the human race will still go ahead.....it was the reason why he put us here on earth in the first place. (Isaiah 55:11)

Despite our sinful nature, the flesh is under our control, like a vehicle we drive with both hands on the steering wheel.....we can make a conscious choice NOT to do what the law forbids, or break the law and face the consequences. No one forces any of us to break the law. We can choose to go against God's commands, or to water down his requirements, but it wont get us anywhere. He does not accept excuses.

The sin born in us can be powerful as was demonstrated in the case of Cain and Abel.....within one generation a murderer was produced....such is the power of that inheritance. (Romans 5:12) The further away we get from our original perfection, and left to our own devices, the worse it can become. Look at the state of the world! We have more sin with less excuse than at any other time in history. The Christian message has been preached in all the world as Jesus commanded (Matthew 24:14)....and yet we see nothing but corruption, wickedness and utter chaos even in lands that claim to be "Christian".

Fascinating, isn't it?
For over 2000 years the faith in Christ has lived in this world.
Christians are presumably one of the foremost populace faith on this planet populated by some 7 billion people.
And the world is worse today than in its entire history.
''...thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.''

Why is the world lime it is today? Look at how the ''world'' in these forums operates among all the supposed believers here.

Look how we treat each other while defending what we think is the spirit of the gospel.

Microcosm\Macrocosm
There was a war in heaven where sin was born. An angel gathered other angels to go to war against GOD!

Thats how sin pre-existed Eden, and entered into the world.

But before all that, God wrote the names of everyone he would save from sin in a book that he wrote before he created the world.

 

[Peterlag]

Reader,

The "New man" that you are to put on.... is not your New Creation IN Christ. As the New Creation, is the Born Again Spirit, and you dont "put that on". You have it already as your SON/Daughter of God...eternal status.. if you are born again and not just water baptized pretending you are a Christian.

This "NEW Creation"..... is what it means to be "in Christ"

However.....The New Man that you put on, is partly Ephesians 6, where you are told to put on the Helmet of Salvation, the Breastplate of Righteousness., etc.
You put THAT ON by making sure you are in the REAL FAITH.

But most of all, you are to "renew your mind", as that is how you "work out your Salvation".
This is to understand God's perspective of you as a Spiritual Son of God, and to exist in that right mind.
The un-renewed mind, is to see yourself not exactly as a Son of God, become a New Creation, as "the righteousness of God in Christ".
But rather, its to SEE YOURSELF<, to think of yourself as a SAVED SINNER, who will sin and confess.
That is the CARNAL mind, "the mind of the flesh" which opposes the "renewed mind",..... and a believer has to work out >in your FAITH< your understanding that you are not your body and you are not your mind.......as the "body is dead because of sin", and the mind is not born again, and has to be RENEWED.

So, what is left?
Its only the BORN AGAIN Spirit that is "In Christ"..."One With God".........a "new Creation".
That, is the Son/Daughter of God, and you have to SEE YOURSELF as only THIS, at all times.... so that your understanding of "new Creation in Christ", is the same perspective that God always has regarding all the born again.

I see it this way...
Victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.

 

[Peterlag]

I can't even read that it's so far from the spirit of what John was teaching! It's pure rationalization! No, John is saying that your denial that sin is in you makes God a liar.

The point is, we *overcome* sin--we do not obliterate it--not until the resurrection. We have to live in these sin-cursed bodies, overcoming the prevalence of the sin inclination until we die. That is our call, to show the power of God's grace to others who face the same choices.

We will always show this inclination to rebel, as long as we are in these earthen, corruptible bodies, but we do not have to follow through and rebel. We can rely on Christ's power of righteousness to do right. This brings glory to God, and gives witness to those who otherwise are in bondage to sin.

So you disagree with my OP?

 

[Behold]

I see it this way...
Victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.

Jesus is Salvation.
Jesus is Eternal Life.
Jesus is "the Resurrection"

So, if Jesus lives in all the born again, then what do the Born again Possess?
The Born again possess Salvation, Eternal life,............ and RESURRECTiON that is still waiting to happen.

What/WHO else are the born again, become?

"ONE WITH GOD"
'Temple of the Holy Spirit"
"New Creation in Christ".
"heir of God"
"Joint Heir with Jesus".
"SON/Daughter of God".

So, that is not our body or our mind. That is our "New Creation IN Christ'.....= our born again Spirit.

Reader...

The sober caution is..... millions of people have been told that """the water washed away their sin""", and in fact, it did not, as it takes the BLOOD of JESUS to redeem your sin and make it as "white as snow"...the song says.
Jesus had to DIE For your SIN, and water did not DIE FOR YOUR SIN on the Cross.
Neither did Commandments or the Law.
So, its possible to be very cognizant of all the "christian stuff", and yet you are not born again.
You are water baptized, you are very religious, you like the bible, you love talking about Jesus and you try to be like Christ.
And that is all RELIGION that tries to imitate Christianity.
God does not accept you or keep you for doing all that "christian stuff".

Jesus said....."you must be born again"< as that is the only spiritual and eternal situation that proves that God has taken you into His Spiritual Family.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So you disagree with my OP?

I would agree with the part about Christ being the source of our righteousness, and about the Law being dead to us. Christ assumed the entire judgment of the Law of Moses to himself, on behalf of the entire human race, displaying for all time what the curse of sin was. (Christ is the judge over all of human nature, and displayed his judgment of all mankind in his death for us.)

Since humanity had sinned since Adam, all of them had to die. So in Christ's death, all died, putting an end to the application of the Law. The Law cannot apply any longer to people who have died.

So the only means of righteousness that lasts is righteousness we obtain spiritually from Christ. People have always been able to do righteousness, but in Christ, all righteousness died, together with all sin. Any righteousness that Man could do is spoiled by a single sin. So in Christ all died, both the righteous and the wicked.

Where I do not agree is, as I said, where you think churches have taught otherwise. Perhaps in some quarters there is a liberal bent in which what you claim they believe is actually taught and believed. But generally, Christian doctrine upholds a standard that is higher than what many churches actually practice, namely that Christ's righteousness is the source of our justification, through his cross.

 

[Behold]

. People have always been able to do righteousness,

Righteousness is not something you can do.
Righteousness is something you exist AS, or you dont.

Adam WAS Righteous, that was his status,.... and he lost that and became a sinner, fallen.

Holiness, is Righteousness, and that is not what you do, that is who you are, are you aren't.
All people are unrighteous, until they are born again.
God only is : Righteousness.

To become righteous, is to become apart from sin.
We can think of it as......... Darkness is the absence of Light. Cold is the absence of Heat. Sin is the absence of Righteousness.. A sinner is the absence of God's Righteousness., and "all have sinned"...

To be apart from God, is to be separated from God's righteousness.
When we get this back, its because God has dealt with all our sin on the Cross, ....so that solves the SIN issue, and then God gives us the "gift of Righteousness" which solves our Righteousness problem. This is "the GIFT of SALVATION".

A Christian, begins day one, born again, = having become the "Righteousness of God'.... "made Righteous".
We never become more Righteous, but we learn how to live in that, so that we produce the spiritual fruit that God's Righteousness produces.
This is your born again Spirit, and that is the REAL YOU. That is the SON/Daughter of GOD.
Not your body and not your mind.

Most Christians do not understand "righteousness" and they are like the Messiah rejecting Jews who are trying to establish their own righteousness.
Reader.....
Can anything be more INSANE than someone trying to establish their OWN Righteousness.?
Yet many are chasing commandments, law, and works, to try to prove to God...."Hey God, look at ALL my RIGHTEOUSNESS".

And God says...."that is filth", that is "dung"...... that is NOT MY Righteousness, that is your SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS = "Depart from me i never Knew YOU".

Where is Righteousness found?

A.) IN CHRIST.

And all the born again are "In Christ", having become "ONE WITH GOD".

This is why the verse says.....>"AS JESUS IS.......so are the born again....IN THIS WORLD"....

And HOW is Jesus? He is RIGHTEOUSNESS......and so is the born again Spirit in every born again BELIEVER.

 

[Randy Kluth]

?
interesting first response, hmm
where did you note any confusion there, if you would?
im not so snappy in the am lol, still early for me

You know, I knew it would come across that way, but I have a tendency to get wordy--not just in the morning, but *all the time!* But no, I didn't mean to reflect poorly on your ability to think! The idea is that you have genuine, justifiable concerns, and I can see where what you say may legitimately conflict with what I say or think is true.

Sorry if I came across like a jerk. Not my intention. Just a little lazy sometimes to put things in a way that sounds better. Besides, I fear forgetting what the main thought was, so I just blurt out whatever....

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Righteousness is not something you can do.

So you just lost me! So, would you say that righteousness is something we *don't do?*

Righteousness is something you exist AS, or you dont.

Sounds like an extreme form of Predestination? I mean, I'm Predestinarian in my theology, generally, but *not* doing righteousness? Sounds the exact opposite of what John said...

1 John 2.29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

All people are unrighteous, until they are born again.
God only is : Righteousness.

When Jesus said "only God is good," what he meant was that only God is the *source* of righteousness, that Man cannot be righteous except by obeying His word to the human conscience.

God's word reaches into the conscience of *all men,* Christian and non-Christian. The difference in the Christian is that he chooses to obey God's word which calls us to embrace not just individual words from God, but more, Christ himself, who represents *all* of God's word.

It obviously did not mean Man cannot do good, since God created him to live in the image and likeness of God from the beginning. God created Man *to do good!* The difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is that the Christian chooses to embrace the *nature* of Christ's righteousness, whereas the non-Christians chooses only to do good on occasion, when it is convenient for him.

A Christian, begins day one, born again, = having become the "Righteousness of God'.... "made Righteous".
We never become more Righteous, but we learn how to live in that, so that we produce the spiritual fruit that Righteousness produces.

If we produce "spiritual fruit," then we *do righteousness*--it doesn't just happen because of who we are. It is because of who we've become that enables us to do good *all the time,* to overcome sin every day. It doesn't mean we're sinless, but it means we can regularly choose to overcome temptations and urges to sin.

I've heard this argument for many years, that we produce fruit but don't actually "do righteousness." The fear is that in saying we "do righteousness" it may appear that we are seeking self-justification.

But choosing to do good *in Christ* brings us justification from Christ. And part of our justification is in evidence by our choice to accept him and his righteousness for our justification.

Can anything be more INSANE than someone trying to establish their OWN Righteousness.?

You're talking about pursuing *self-justification,* and has nothing to do with accepting Christ and his righteousness as our justification. In choosing him we are also choosing his righteousness. In choosing his righteousness we choose to *do good.* That is evidence of the choice that we've made.