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Do you have to prove God exists?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Chris Tucker, Apr 21, 2021.

  1. Chris Tucker

    Chris Tucker New Member

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    We hear it all the time. I don’t believe God exists. Prove God exists to me and I will become a believer.
    Well, what does the Bible say about this? Are you required to prove God exists?
    What if there is a better way to defend God? And, it is told right in the Bible.
    Wouldn’t you want to know? Plus, you would be a more effective witness producing more fruit for the Kingdom of God.
    Who wants to be a more effective witness for Jesus? Let us know what your thoughts on this subject are.

    Be encouraged and… Praise God!

     
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  2. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    @Chris Tucker

    It is a walk of faith rather than one of knowledge!

    "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

    But as we follow Jesus faith is finished in us, we will be left with what? Is it to be knowledge?

    "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

    "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

    What is it that we shall then know? Can a person know the Truth without knowing that God exists? To whom do we need to prove that? Is it not proven in our own hearts by God's presence within us? Can we prove that to an unbelieving skeptic? Do we need to do so? If given the opportunity we may give the skeptics our own testimonies, but if they reject that, is it not then between them and God?
     
  3. Pearl

    Pearl Well-Known Member

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    Nobody can prove the existence of God. God is revealed only by the Holy Spirit.
     
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  4. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    No because failure is an option. Putting aside religion, an aspect of logic is the one making the positive claim has the burden of proof. What constitutes proof will be explained in more detail in a moment. The null hypothesis in statistics is that if the claim is not supported, its opposite is accepted.

    Ha: The new product is better than the old.
    H0: The new product is NOT better than the old.

    True but irrelevant to the point of the OP.

    I disagree. Unbelievers have deliberately set a standard of proof impossible to meet. Proof standards include:
    1. mathematical certainty
    2. statistically significant
    3. beyond reasonable doubt (criminal trials)
    4. more likely than not (civil trials)
    I hold there are 5 proofs of God that meet criteria #4, more likely than not.

    One of the most important things to establish in statistics and debate is the acceptance criteria. Without the acceptance criteria being established trying to convince someone of something they do not want to accept is futile. They will always 'move the goalposts.' Hope this helps.
     
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  5. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    @Wrangler
    We do disagree on this point.
     
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  6. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Hi John,
    At first, I thought, is that statement relevant to the OP? Then, after a minute of thinking about it, yes, indeed it is!
    There is only one way for someone to personally "know" that He exists, and that would be to believe what we do not see as possible, or believe what He says..."taste and see that He is good"

    We can pray for obstacles to be removed from the sight of the lost, we can tell them our Christian experiences but...can't force someone to know the Truth in this way...everyone wants science and things they can "see" and "touch"...and we know He doesn't work that way, Amen! It is an exciting adventure once that full trust develops and worry flies out the window forever such peace "that passes ALL understanding"

    In Him always.
     
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  7. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    You write eloquently but generically. Almost all of your posts are unresponsive to the point in every thread. It's all about Jesus. Forgiving is important. It's a matter of faith. Yup. Repeat.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Pearl

    Pearl Well-Known Member

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    You only quoted part of my post there and as I said earlier only the Holy Spirit can reveal God to you through Jesus. Mathematics or statistics never will.
     
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  9. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Does it seem that way to you? Perhaps it is because unlike the OT where there at least seemed to be black and white rules or answers to every question, that is not so in the NT or not at least as most believers [seemingly] understand it. What is the black and white answer to a hypothetical question presented by a man? What is the answer to a similar question presented by Jesus by means of a parable?

    The real answer I see is for us is that God never changes. We do... or at least we should be changing/growing closer to Him during all of the time that has been allotted to each of us.

    I know in my heart that God exists because He has manifested Himself to me. The proof of that is within me but it is not transferrable to another person unless the potential recipient is open and God is in the transfer. Only God gives any increases that matter to Him.

    When I was a Catholic I was a strong trinitarian, but what does that mean to me 50 years later? When I was in the Oneness Jesus Only groups I believed what they said, but something else was also appearing to me, but what does that mean to me 40 years later? And so on it goes...

    If we are being led by the Holy Spirit today we may now have a black and white answer to definite question about what is happening now, but if it is about tomorrow or it is hypothetical why should we presume that we have it? Do we need it or only want it? What does God think about that?
     
  10. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    This is precisely why it is irrelevant to the OP. The personal relationship angle answers a different question and is irrelevant even though true.
     
  11. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  12. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Never true. While faith is the evidence of things not seen, there is evidence to be seen.

    As I was doing my devotional reading today, I realized how much of the Bible is recorded history. These events actually happened, e.g., the conquest of Canaan. (I like history but know many do not.) So, if you embrace the generic meaning of science is merely 'study of,' then history is the science of the story of man. And the Bible is the science of man's relationship with God.

    In my Spirit led reading today I fell upon the writings of Saint Paul. In 1 Corinthians 15 he legalistically/argumentatively said these words in verses 15-20.

    12 But tell me this—since we preach that Christ rose from the dead, why are some of you saying there will be no resurrection of the dead? 13 For if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised either. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless. 15 And we apostles would all be lying about God—for we have said that God raised Christ from the grave. But that can’t be true if there is no resurrection of the dead. 16 And if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins. 18 In that case, all who have died believing in Christ are lost! 19 And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world.

    20 But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.


    Paul is writing about historical fact. As I wrote before about standards of proof, the more likely than not standard is enlightening. The life standard. What more proof do you need that a mother loves her baby that she gives her life for it? What more proof do you require than not 1, but 11, of the 12 Apostles died horribly when recanting could have saved them? They must have seen something with their own eyes more important than life in this mortal coil.

    How else do you explain how 12 uneducated and poor men in the outskirts of the Roman Empire lead to the biggest religion in the world? 500 other witnesses saw the resurrected Jesus. This is some of the proof of the existence of God.
     
  13. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Again, never true. Let me tell you my story. I was an unbeliever. The Holy Spirit reached out to me in my state of disbelief in what I later learned is Prevenient grace. I am a witness. Don't tell me God does not exist and don't tell me you have to believe before you see the evidnce! If you do not see, it is because you are choosing to not see.

    I want no part of a religion that has no proof of its validity. After we recognize the proof, we can talk about faith going forward all you want. What basis do non-believers have to disregard eye witnesses who paid for their testimony with their lives?! None. They are not open to evidence and proof and I reject their standard of proof designed to reject all the available evidence.
     
  14. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    This is what I mean about generic posts. This statement can be made in every thread.
     
  15. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    And the Bible can be and is used to argue support for each side of two diametrically opposed doctrines!

    "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
    Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us." Ecc 1:9-10

    Without the Holy Ghost we are in trouble indeed!
     
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  16. devin553344

    devin553344 Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily true when you study physics. In studying physics it only supported my faith in an almighty creator. But you would have to really study physics to understand that and it took me 5 years of long days of study to get there. But basically people that believe in a big bang would have trouble proving an origin of the start of such an event.
     
  17. devin553344

    devin553344 Well-Known Member

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    If the birds and fish know God exists, then why worry about non-believers, they aren't as intelligent as animal life? That's what I got from the video :) lol.

    OK, but honestly, I'm not going to spend a whole bunch of time with people that deny God. But if people respond and want to believe, them will I spend time with. Why try to turn chaff into fruit, but it seems more intelligent to work with the good fruit and disregard the chaff.
     
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  18. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Quoting a part one wants to respond to is common, isn't it?

    True but besides the point, which is not about God but about having to offer proof.

    Do you know what a converse statement is? While true that ALL RECTANGLES ARE SQUARES, not all squares are rectangles. I think that is what is going on here. Given 'only the Holy Spirit can reveal God to you through Jesus' then there is no basis to advance the Great Commission, right? :rolleyes:
     
  19. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Are you playing with me now? Indeed.
     
  20. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    There are many people who believe God exist, like myself. The only reason was because at 26, there was a noticeable difference in my behavior by the time of reaching 26. Having had many experiences, with people, relationships, family problems, difficulties, drug addictions, with ups and down of life, through everything up till then, there was an understanding that came to me that, it was time to listen to some preachers and what they had to say about things about the bible.

    There were so many different topics, but was learning about the bible through men, and trying to understand what was being taught. So what happened while listening to some pastors, some mentions would be Paul Washer, and Shawn Mcranney (From Heart of the matter on youtube.) Learn from Paul, and see what he has to say about a lot of things first, because Paul Washer was the one that I was listening to when a new thought came to me and what it lead me to do was.

    Read the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Learn about the Lord Jesus Christ, and see what He has to say, and what He has to teach, and He desires for you in your life.

    After doing this, was transformed into a new creation, over time. However, when it comes to being born again -> When a Christian first becomes a believer and learning about the Lord Jesus Christ and God -> naturally being reborn again by the spirit they are becoming new -> renewed in their mind, renewed in their hearts -> that are all coming from God and the faith they are learning to receive by questioning, and pondering and having a relationship with God with about what they are reading.

    The first and foremost greatest thing to know is the ability to know you can have a relationship with the God who created you and the world, but it up to you if you make that choice or not, because God has already sent His Son Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Lord and Saviour, King of Kings, Lord of Lords of Nazareth is the truth, the way and the life.

    He came to bring truth, and only some people can handle what He has to teach, but also learning about what the Apostles also had to say about Him, and also the other books that are in there that all have tremendous value and wisdom to learn from and apply in our daily lives when it comes to being born again spiritual life that comes from faith on the Lord Jesus Christ who is the bread of life, and the everlasting waters who freely gives who desires to come and learn and see what lessons He has, and His comfort, and most importantly. Love.

    Great question!

    Are you required to prove God exists? No, this a subjective question. Though the bible does express that God is made know by creation itself. It depends on the person and their choice whether or not they are going to choose to believe, or not believe in the existence of God.

    Anyone can freely share Christ Jesus any day any time and any where.


    Thank you Chris you too. Awesome name, by the way.
     
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