Doctors of the Church: St. Athanasius of Alexandria

[Johann]

No.

What we have here in Jerome’s text is an example of Tradition (Baptism) and tradition (milk & honey). One is doctrinal and is binding on the believer. The other is a custom and is not binding.

Paul clearly taught that Tradition is just as binding on the believer as Scripture (2 Thess. 2:15).

Uh-no.

So then, Achim b'Moshiach, stand fast and hold fast to the [orthodox Jewish] emunah, the Moshiach's pnimiyus hatorah that was handed over and transmitted to you, which you were taught, whether by divrei pinu (words of our mouth) or by our iggeret hakodesh.
And hold the traditions which ye have been taught: meaning the truths of the Gospel, which may be called traditions, because they are delivered from one to another; the Gospel was first delivered by God the Father to Jesus Christ, as Mediator, and by him to his apostles, and by them to the churches of Christ; whence it is called the form of doctrine delivered to them, and the faith once delivered to the saints: and also the ordinances of the Gospel which the apostles received from Christ, and as they received them faithfully delivered them, such as baptism and the Lord's supper; as well as rules of conduct and behaviour, both in the church, and in the world, even all the commandments of Christ, which he ordered his apostles to teach, and which they gave by him; see 2Th_3:6. And so the Syriac version here renders it, "the commandments": and these were such as these saints had been taught by the apostles, under the direction of Christ, and through the guidance of his Spirit; and were not the traditions of men or the rudiments of the world, but what they had received from Christ, through the hands of the apostles:
whether by word, or our epistle, that is, by "our" word, as well as by our epistle, and so the Arabic version reads; these doctrines, ordinances, and rules of discipline were communicated to them, both by word of mouth, when the apostles were in person among them, and by writing afterwards to them; for what the apostles delivered in the ministry of the word to the churches, they sent them in writing, that they might be a standing rule of faith and practice; so that this does not in the least countenance the unwritten traditions of the Papists; and since these were what were taught them, "viva voce", and they received them from the mouth of the apostles, or by letters from them, or both, it became them to hold and retain them fast, and not let them go, either with respect to doctrine or practice.


παράδοσις
paradosis
par-ad'-os-is
From G3860; transmission, that is, (concretely) a precept; specifically the Jewish traditionary law: - ordinance, tradition.

LXX related word(s)
H612 esur
H5414 natan ni.

Thayer Definition:
1) giving up, giving over
1a) the act of giving up
1b) the surrender of cities
2) a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
2a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
2b) of the body of precepts, especially ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence

paradosis .
1. This word for "tradition" means "what is transmitted" rather than "transmission" in the NT. It has an unfavorable sense when used of the tradition that is added to the law, e.g., that of the elders in Mar_7:3; Mar_7:5, or of men in Mar_7:8. Jesus rejects the validity of additions to the divine law. The use is more comprehensive in Gal_1:14, embracing written as well as unwritten traditions.
2. Christian teaching is also tradition in 1Co_11:2;

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.


Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


2Th_2:15. It must be adhered to by the churches (1Co_15:2).

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

To be valid it must be handed down (1Co_15:3)

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


and must derive from the Lord (11:23),

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

i.e., it must have divine authority. One may see from 1Co_15:3ff; 1Co_11:23 ff. that it is older than Paul and is already acquiring a fixed form in his day.
[F. BUCHSEL]

Reference To:
diermeneutes
hermeneuo

Instead of running to what the Church Fathers wrote-I go to what ancient rabbins wrote-problem is, I don't see their writings as authoritative-superseding what stands written-the dogmas and catechisms is diametrically opposed to what stands written.

Thanks
J.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No-I don't think you can spend hours "destroying" as to what stands written-make your appeal as to what stands written, not the Church fathers and catechisms.

An aside-I am still learning, at the moment-but thank you for giving the "20 or so" liturgical rites.
J.

On the contrary – I’ve spent YEARS ono this forum destroying those points . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Uh-no.

So then, Achim b'Moshiach, stand fast and hold fast to the [orthodox Jewish] emunah, the Moshiach's pnimiyus hatorah that was handed over and transmitted to you, which you were taught, whether by divrei pinu (words of our mouth) or by our iggeret hakodesh.
And hold the traditions which ye have been taught: meaning the truths of the Gospel, which may be called traditions, because they are delivered from one to another; the Gospel was first delivered by God the Father to Jesus Christ, as Mediator, and by him to his apostles, and by them to the churches of Christ; whence it is called the form of doctrine delivered to them, and the faith once delivered to the saints: and also the ordinances of the Gospel which the apostles received from Christ, and as they received them faithfully delivered them, such as baptism and the Lord's supper; as well as rules of conduct and behaviour, both in the church, and in the world, even all the commandments of Christ, which he ordered his apostles to teach, and which they gave by him; see 2Th_3:6. And so the Syriac version here renders it, "the commandments": and these were such as these saints had been taught by the apostles, under the direction of Christ, and through the guidance of his Spirit; and were not the traditions of men or the rudiments of the world, but what they had received from Christ, through the hands of the apostles:
whether by word, or our epistle, that is, by "our" word, as well as by our epistle, and so the Arabic version reads; these doctrines, ordinances, and rules of discipline were communicated to them, both by word of mouth, when the apostles were in person among them, and by writing afterwards to them; for what the apostles delivered in the ministry of the word to the churches, they sent them in writing, that they might be a standing rule of faith and practice; so that this does not in the least countenance the unwritten traditions of the Papists; and since these were what were taught them, "viva voce", and they received them from the mouth of the apostles, or by letters from them, or both, it became them to hold and retain them fast, and not let them go, either with respect to doctrine or practice.


παράδοσις
paradosis
par-ad'-os-is
From G3860; transmission, that is, (concretely) a precept; specifically the Jewish traditionary law: - ordinance, tradition.

LXX related word(s)
H612 esur
H5414 natan ni.

Thayer Definition:
1) giving up, giving over
1a) the act of giving up
1b) the surrender of cities
2) a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
2a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
2b) of the body of precepts, especially ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence

paradosis .
1. This word for "tradition" means "what is transmitted" rather than "transmission" in the NT. It has an unfavorable sense when used of the tradition that is added to the law, e.g., that of the elders in Mar_7:3; Mar_7:5, or of men in Mar_7:8. Jesus rejects the validity of additions to the divine law. The use is more comprehensive in Gal_1:14, embracing written as well as unwritten traditions.
2. Christian teaching is also tradition in 1Co_11:2;

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.


Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


2Th_2:15. It must be adhered to by the churches (1Co_15:2).

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

To be valid it must be handed down (1Co_15:3)

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


and must derive from the Lord (11:23),

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

i.e., it must have divine authority. One may see from 1Co_15:3ff; 1Co_11:23 ff. that it is older than Paul and is already acquiring a fixed form in his day.
[F. BUCHSEL]

Reference To:
diermeneutes
hermeneuo

Instead of running to what the Church Fathers wrote-I go to what ancient rabbins wrote-problem is, I don't see their writings as authoritative-superseding what stands written-the dogmas and catechisms is diametrically opposed to what stands written.

Thanks
J.

Tradition doesn’t just mean "what is transmitted" in WRITING.

Paul makes is crystal-clear that the traditions he is referring to are EITHER written OR conveyed orally. And NOWHERE does he state that these Traditions are part of the written Gospel – or that the Word of God is conveyed solely in the written form.
In fact – NOWHERE does the Bible teach that the Bible is our sole Authority.

It was Paul who also wrote that faith comes from hearing (Rom. 10:17). The same isn’t written about readding . . .

 

[Johann]

Tradition doesn’t just mean "what is transmitted" in WRITING.

Paul makes is crystal-clear that the traditions he is referring to are EITHER written OR conveyed orally. And NOWHERE does he state that these Traditions are part of the written Gospel – or that the Word of God is conveyed solely in the written form.
In fact – NOWHERE does the Bible teach that the Bible is our sole Authority.

It was Paul who also wrote that faith comes from hearing (Rom. 10:17). The same isn’t written about readding . . .

Number one-let's stay on topic-infant baptism
Number two-check your spelling
checker.
Number three-Apostolic tradition-as I have shown.

Thanks
J.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Number one-let's stay on topic-infant baptism
Number two-check your spelling
checker.
Number three-Apostolic tradition-as I have shown.

Thanks
J.

First of all – I didn’t misspell anything – but thanks for the

As for Infant Baptism – the Early Church Fathers appealed to Apostolic Tradition:
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, AND CHILDREN, and youths, and old men.

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and IF they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, BAPTISM IS GIVEN EVEN TO INFANTS. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

“THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES THE TRADITION OF GIVING BAPTISM EVEN TO INFANTS. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“as to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (Letters 58:2 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory of Nazianzus
“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, LET THE INFANT BE SANCTIFIED FROM CHILDHOOD. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

“‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still CHIDREN, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly, if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated” (ibid., 40:28).

John Chrysostom
“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! FOR THIS REASON WE BAPTIZE EVEN INFANTS, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine
“The custom of Mother Church in BAPTIZING INFANTS is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except Apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

“By this grace BAPTIZED INFANTS too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . .” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).

 

[Johann]

First of all – I didn’t misspell anything – but thanks for the

As for Infant Baptism – the Early Church Fathers appealed to Apostolic Tradition:
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, AND CHILDREN, and youths, and old men.

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and IF they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, BAPTISM IS GIVEN EVEN TO INFANTS. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

“THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES THE TRADITION OF GIVING BAPTISM EVEN TO INFANTS. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“as to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (Letters 58:2 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory of Nazianzus
“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, LET THE INFANT BE SANCTIFIED FROM CHILDHOOD. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

“‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still CHIDREN, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly, if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated” (ibid., 40:28).

John Chrysostom
“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! FOR THIS REASON WE BAPTIZE EVEN INFANTS, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine
“The custom of Mother Church in BAPTIZING INFANTS is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except Apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

“By this grace BAPTIZED INFANTS too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . .” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).

Nope-you are very desperate-and butchering the Scriptures.
4th time.
Where is a baby justified and and regenerated in the waters of baptism?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nope-you are very desperate-and butchering the Scriptures.
4th time.
Where is a baby justified and and regenerated in the waters of baptism?

Through the faith of the Parents.

A "Covenant" is a agreement between 2 or more parties. How did an 8-day-old baby enter into the Covenant with God in the OT?
Answer: Through the faith and obedience of his Parents.

Was it the baby who decided to get circumcised, which was the requirement for that child to enter into the family of God?
Baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision, It is the circumcision of the Heart *Rom. 2:29).

 

[Johann]

Through the faith of the Parents.

A "Covenant" is a agreement between 2 or more parties. How did an 8-day-old baby enter into the Covenant with God in the OT?
Answer: Through the faith and obedience of his Parents.

Was it the baby who decided to get circumcised, which was the requirement for that child to enter into the family of God?
Baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision, It is the circumcision of the Heart *Rom. 2:29).

You might want to try again-using Scriptures.

(see *Conversos , *Marranos ). Another problem presented itself in the case of infants: at what age could they be presumed to have minds of their own and to accept baptism "willingly" and not passively, or in return for some trivial temptation? On the whole, it may be said that whereas the church doctrine on the matter of forced baptism, which it theoretically condemned, remained unchanged, its attitude as regards ex post facto problems hardened through the centuries.

A baby is not regenerated and justified in the waters of baptism-not knowing their left from their right.

Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

*Rom. 2:29).

This was a good try-unsuccessful.

But he is a Jew which is one inwardly,.... Who has an internal work of grace upon his soul: who has not only an outward name, but an inward nature; not the law of God in the hand, but in the heart; not an external righteousness only, but internal holiness; and who is not a mere outward court worshipper, but a worshipper of God in Spirit and in truth. The Jews have a (e) saying themselves,
"that whosoever denies idolatry, נקרא יהודי, "is called a Jew":''
so that, according to them, this is a name that is not confined to themselves, but belongs to all such who truly fear and worship God; and they say, in the same place, that Pharaoh's daughter was called יהודית, "a Jewess", because she denied idolatry, and went down to wash herself from the idols of her father's house. And elsewhere (f),
"that faith does not depend upon circumcision, but upon the heart: he that believes not as he should, circumcision does not make him a Jew; and he that believes as he ought, he indeed is a Jew, though he is not circumcised.''
And circumcision is that of the heart; which God requires, and he himself promises to give, Deu_10:16, upon which last passage, a very noted Jew (g) has this observation, זאת היא מלת הלב, "this is the circumcision of the heart"; the very phrase the apostle here uses: circumcision of the flesh was typical of this, which lies in a godly sorrow for sin, in a putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, and in renouncing a man's own righteousness in the business of justification.

The ancient Jews had some notion of this typical use of circumcision. So Philo the Jew says (h), that circumcision taught ηδονων και παθων παντων εκτομην, "the cutting off of all pleasures and affections": and elsewhere he says (i): it is a symbol of two things particularly; the one is the cutting off of pleasures, as before; and the other is the removal of arrogancy, that grievous disease of the soul: and in another place (k) he calls purity, or chastity, περιτομης περιτομην, "the circumcision of circumcision".

Now this our apostle says is
in the spirit; meaning either the spirit or soul of man, which is the seat and subject of it; or the Spirit of God, who is the author of it: the Ethiopic version reads it, "by the Holy Ghost":
and not in the letter; or "by the letter" of the law; but the Holy Ghost produces this spiritual work instrumentally, by the preaching of the Gospel. To which the apostle adds,
whose praise is not of men, but of God; referring not to circumcision immediately spoken of before, but to the Jew who is one inwardly: and alludes to the name Judah, from whence the Jews are called, which comes from the word ידה, which signifies to "praise"; and intimates here, that such persons must not expect praise from men, who are only taken, with outward things, but from God, who searches and knows the heart.

Context

Romans 2:17-29

2. The guilt of the Jews 2:17-29

Even though the Jews had the advantages of the Mosaic Law and circumcision, their arrogance and fruitlessness offset these advantages. Divinely revealed religion is no substitute for trust and obedience toward God. Rom_2:17-29 are similar to Rom_1:18-32. In Rom_2:17-29, Paul showed that Jews are guilty before God just as he formerly proved all humanity guilty. In both sections he pointed out that man knew the truth but rejected it and consequently became guilty of idolatry, sensuality, and immorality.

"In the previous section Paul addressed his Jewish readers in a relatively restrained manner. But here the mood changed. Once again he employed the diatribe style that he used in the opening verses of chap. 2. His tone became quite severe as he laid out before them the absolute necessity of bringing their conduct into line with their profession. From this point on to the end of the second major division (Rom_3:20), we hear Paul the preacher convincing his listeners of their need for a different kind of righteousness. Although in another letter he claimed that his preaching was not eloquent (1Co_2:1-5), it is hard to deny that here in Romans we are dealing with the dynamic rhetoric of an evangelist bent on persuasion." [Note: Mounce, pp. 97-98.]

"Paul here claims for the Jew nothing more than what the Jews of his day were claiming for themselves; every item on the list in Rom_2:17-20 is paralleled in Jewish literature of the time." [Note: Moo, p. 159.]


Romans 2:28-29

We now discover a second reason Paul chose to address his fellow Israelites as Jews in this section (Rom_2:17-29). Not only was "Jew" a title that non-Jews used to describe Israelites, but the word "Jew" comes from the name "Judah," which means "praise." Paul was saying the person who really praises God is not one who merely wears the label of circumcision but one who really obeys God. Such a person has a circumcised heart (cf. Deu_30:6; Jer_4:4; Jer_9:25-26; Eze_44:9). Heart circumcision is a spiritual operation that the Holy Spirit performs, not a physical operation that conforms to the letter of the Mosaic Law. The truly obedient person will not only praise God, but God will also praise him. He will not just receive the praise of men for his professed obedience to God.

"These verses [Rom_2:25-29] must be kept in their context, which is that Paul is dealing with Jews and making a distinction between Jews who believe and Jews who do not believe. He is not teaching that every Gentile Christian is a spiritual Jew. Rather, he is teaching that every Jew is not a full Jew. A completed Jew is one who has had both circumcisions, the circumcision of the flesh, which is outward in obedience to the Abrahamic covenant, and an inward circumcision of the heart as an act of obedience to the new covenant." [Note: Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, "Israel and the Church," in Issues in Dispensationalism, pp. 128-29. See also Alva J. McClain, Romans: The Gospel of God's Grace, p. 86; and Robert L. Saucy, The Case for Progressive Dispensationalism, pp. 195-98.]

In Rom_2:17-29 Paul's point was that perfect obedience is more important that religious privilege. Even though the Jews boasted in outward matters, the law and circumcision, they were guilty of failing God inwardly, as were the Gentiles. Really a God-fearing Gentile was more pleasing to God than a disobedient Jew because God delights in obedience.


Now-ask yourself this question-Can an infant do this? Can an infant yield perfect obedience?

J.

 

[Johann]

Was it the baby who decided to get circumcised, which was the requirement for that child to enter into the family of God?

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: COLOSSIANS 1:9-14
9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1:9-20 This is one sentence in Greek. Col. 1:9-12 is Paul's prayer for these believers. Col. 1:13-14 describes what the Father has done for believers through the Son. Verses 15-18 are possibly a quote from an early Christian hymn or confessional statement related to the ministry of the Son (i.e., other possible hymns, cf. Phil. 2:6-11, 1 Tim. 3:16, 2 Tim, 2:11-12). This is one of the greatest Christological confession in Paul's writings (compare with Phil. 2:6-11).

1:9 "heard of it" Paul did not start this church, nor did he know its members personally. He heard about their faith and love from its founder, Epaphras (cf. Col. 1:7-8).

"we have not ceased to pray for you"

The plural refers to (1) Paul himself (i.e., editorial plural) or (2) Paul and his mission team. Leaders should constantly hold up their flocks to the Lord.

"that you may be filled"

This is an aorist passive subjunctive. Believers cannot fill themselves, but they must allow and co-operate with the Spirit (cf. Eph. 5:18).

"Filled" is the main verb of Col. 1:9-12. It is the first of two requests that Paul made of the Father on behalf of the Colossian believers. The other is for their walk to be worthy (Col. 1:10). Notice he links knowledge of God with a godly lifestyle (cf. Eph. 4:1,17; 5:2,15). Faith without works is dead (cf. James 2:14-26).

"knowledge of His will"

The content of this knowledge (epignōskō, i.e., experiential knowledge, cf. v.6) is the gospel. The gospel is (1) a body of truth to be believed; (2) a person to be received; and (3) a life like that person's to live. God's will is that individuals personally respond to Christ (cf. John 6:29,40) who is the goal of all "spiritual wisdom and understanding."

This verse is a play on the theology of the false teachers. This is confirmed by (1) Paul's use of "filled" (plerōma), one of the Gnostics' favorite terms for the aeons between the high god and angelic levels and (2) their emphasis on secret knowledge (cf. Col. 2:3). For Paul, all fullness and knowledge was in Christ, who was God's wisdom (sophia, cf. Col. 1:28; 2:3,23; 3:16; 4:5; Eph. 1:8,17; 3:10) and the convergence of all truth (sunesis, cf. Col. 2:2).

Notice the threefold repetition: "knowledge," "wisdom," and "understanding." This reflects the false teachers' emphasis on secret truth (cf. Col. 2:3). Christ is the truth of God (cf. John 14:6)!

1:10 "walk in a manner worthy" This is an aorist active infinitive. It is defined by four present participles (cf. Col. 1:10-12) which describes the worthy walk (cf. Col. 2:6; 3:7; 4:5; Eph. 2:10; 4:1,17; 5:2,15; 1 Thess. 2:12; 4:1). God's will is that His children reflect His character daily.

" bearing fruit in every good work"

For "fruit bearing" see note at Col. 1:6. This is the first of four present participles (cf. Col. 1:10-12) which describe worthy lives.

God's will is that believers live godly lives. The moral transformation of believers is evidence that the image of God has been restored! It serves as a bridge to evangelism. It reflects the believer's new family characteristics and shows who our true father is - God.

Biblical salvation is a free gift, which must result in a new and different life (cf. Eph. 2:8-9, 10).

May you see the light,
J.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You might want to try again-using Scriptures.

(see *Conversos , *Marranos ). Another problem presented itself in the case of infants: at what age could they be presumed to have minds of their own and to accept baptism "willingly" and not passively, or in return for some trivial temptation? On the whole, it may be said that whereas the church doctrine on the matter of forced baptism, which it theoretically condemned, remained unchanged, its attitude as regards ex post facto problems hardened through the centuries.

A baby is not regenerated and justified in the waters of baptism-not knowing their left from their right.

Shalom
J.

And YOU might want to show me where the Scriptures state that the Scriptures are out SOLE Authority. While you’re at it – why don’t you also show me where the Bible lists all of the Books that belon in it.

It took the God-given Authority of the Catholic Church to declare the Canon of Scripture in the 4th century.

In the meantime – I will show you where the Scriptures explicitly state that Sacred Tradition includes that which is SPOKEN as well as what is written.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

As for Baptism – both Peter and Paul baptized entire households on the faith of the leaders of those households.
Peter with the household of Cornelius (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14) and Paul with the Philippian Jailer’s household (Acts 16:23-33) and that of Stephanas (1Cor. 1:16).

1st century households often included 2 or 4 generations of people- of ALL ages - including children and infants.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This was a good try-unsuccessful.

But he is a Jew which is one inwardly,.... Who has an internal work of grace upon his soul: who has not only an outward name, but an inward nature; not the law of God in the hand, but in the heart; not an external righteousness only, but internal holiness; and who is not a mere outward court worshipper, but a worshipper of God in Spirit and in truth. The Jews have a (e) saying themselves,
"that whosoever denies idolatry, נקרא יהודי, "is called a Jew":''
so that, according to them, this is a name that is not confined to themselves, but belongs to all such who truly fear and worship God; and they say, in the same place, that Pharaoh's daughter was called יהודית, "a Jewess", because she denied idolatry, and went down to wash herself from the idols of her father's house. And elsewhere (f),
"that faith does not depend upon circumcision, but upon the heart: he that believes not as he should, circumcision does not make him a Jew; and he that believes as he ought, he indeed is a Jew, though he is not circumcised.''
And circumcision is that of the heart; which God requires, and he himself promises to give, Deu_10:16, upon which last passage, a very noted Jew (g) has this observation, זאת היא מלת הלב, "this is the circumcision of the heart"; the very phrase the apostle here uses: circumcision of the flesh was typical of this, which lies in a godly sorrow for sin, in a putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, and in renouncing a man's own righteousness in the business of justification.

The ancient Jews had some notion of this typical use of circumcision. So Philo the Jew says (h), that circumcision taught ηδονων και παθων παντων εκτομην, "the cutting off of all pleasures and affections": and elsewhere he says (i): it is a symbol of two things particularly; the one is the cutting off of pleasures, as before; and the other is the removal of arrogancy, that grievous disease of the soul: and in another place (k) he calls purity, or chastity, περιτομης περιτομην, "the circumcision of circumcision".

Now this our apostle says is
in the spirit; meaning either the spirit or soul of man, which is the seat and subject of it; or the Spirit of God, who is the author of it: the Ethiopic version reads it, "by the Holy Ghost":
and not in the letter; or "by the letter" of the law; but the Holy Ghost produces this spiritual work instrumentally, by the preaching of the Gospel. To which the apostle adds,
whose praise is not of men, but of God; referring not to circumcision immediately spoken of before, but to the Jew who is one inwardly: and alludes to the name Judah, from whence the Jews are called, which comes from the word ידה, which signifies to "praise"; and intimates here, that such persons must not expect praise from men, who are only taken, with outward things, but from God, who searches and knows the heart.

Context

Romans 2:17-29

2. The guilt of the Jews 2:17-29

Even though the Jews had the advantages of the Mosaic Law and circumcision, their arrogance and fruitlessness offset these advantages. Divinely revealed religion is no substitute for trust and obedience toward God. Rom_2:17-29 are similar to Rom_1:18-32. In Rom_2:17-29, Paul showed that Jews are guilty before God just as he formerly proved all humanity guilty. In both sections he pointed out that man knew the truth but rejected it and consequently became guilty of idolatry, sensuality, and immorality.

"In the previous section Paul addressed his Jewish readers in a relatively restrained manner. But here the mood changed. Once again he employed the diatribe style that he used in the opening verses of chap. 2. His tone became quite severe as he laid out before them the absolute necessity of bringing their conduct into line with their profession. From this point on to the end of the second major division (Rom_3:20), we hear Paul the preacher convincing his listeners of their need for a different kind of righteousness. Although in another letter he claimed that his preaching was not eloquent (1Co_2:1-5), it is hard to deny that here in Romans we are dealing with the dynamic rhetoric of an evangelist bent on persuasion." [Note: Mounce, pp. 97-98.]

"Paul here claims for the Jew nothing more than what the Jews of his day were claiming for themselves; every item on the list in Rom_2:17-20 is paralleled in Jewish literature of the time." [Note: Moo, p. 159.]


Romans 2:28-29

We now discover a second reason Paul chose to address his fellow Israelites as Jews in this section (Rom_2:17-29). Not only was "Jew" a title that non-Jews used to describe Israelites, but the word "Jew" comes from the name "Judah," which means "praise." Paul was saying the person who really praises God is not one who merely wears the label of circumcision but one who really obeys God. Such a person has a circumcised heart (cf. Deu_30:6; Jer_4:4; Jer_9:25-26; Eze_44:9). Heart circumcision is a spiritual operation that the Holy Spirit performs, not a physical operation that conforms to the letter of the Mosaic Law. The truly obedient person will not only praise God, but God will also praise him. He will not just receive the praise of men for his professed obedience to God.

"These verses [Rom_2:25-29] must be kept in their context, which is that Paul is dealing with Jews and making a distinction between Jews who believe and Jews who do not believe. He is not teaching that every Gentile Christian is a spiritual Jew. Rather, he is teaching that every Jew is not a full Jew. A completed Jew is one who has had both circumcisions, the circumcision of the flesh, which is outward in obedience to the Abrahamic covenant, and an inward circumcision of the heart as an act of obedience to the new covenant." [Note: Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, "Israel and the Church," in Issues in Dispensationalism, pp. 128-29. See also Alva J. McClain, Romans: The Gospel of God's Grace, p. 86; and Robert L. Saucy, The Case for Progressive Dispensationalism, pp. 195-98.]

In Rom_2:17-29 Paul's point was that perfect obedience is more important that religious privilege. Even though the Jews boasted in outward matters, the law and circumcision, they were guilty of failing God inwardly, as were the Gentiles. Really a God-fearing Gentile was more pleasing to God than a disobedient Jew because God delights in obedience.


Now-ask yourself this question-Can an infant do this? Can an infant yield perfect obedience?

J.

That was quite a diatribe that can ben answered very simply.

As I stated before - it is the faith of the parents that guides that infant through childhood until he can make his own decisions about his faith.
The obedience begins with the parents, who teach that child obedience.

This is the problem, with most Protestants. They see life and a “Me and Jesus” experience.
We’re not a gaggle of “Lone Rangers” on this journey - but the Body of Christ.

Paul explains in 1 Cor. 12 that, as members of this Body – we NEED each other. We HELP each other get to Heaven. You cannot say that you don’t need the other members of the Body – or YOU are not truly a member of that Body.

 

[BreadOfLife]

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: COLOSSIANS 1:9-14
9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1:9-20 This is one sentence in Greek. Col. 1:9-12 is Paul's prayer for these believers. Col. 1:13-14 describes what the Father has done for believers through the Son. Verses 15-18 are possibly a quote from an early Christian hymn or confessional statement related to the ministry of the Son (i.e., other possible hymns, cf. Phil. 2:6-11, 1 Tim. 3:16, 2 Tim, 2:11-12). This is one of the greatest Christological confession in Paul's writings (compare with Phil. 2:6-11).

1:9 "heard of it" Paul did not start this church, nor did he know its members personally. He heard about their faith and love from its founder, Epaphras (cf. Col. 1:7-8).

"we have not ceased to pray for you"

The plural refers to (1) Paul himself (i.e., editorial plural) or (2) Paul and his mission team. Leaders should constantly hold up their flocks to the Lord.

"that you may be filled"

This is an aorist passive subjunctive. Believers cannot fill themselves, but they must allow and co-operate with the Spirit (cf. Eph. 5:18).

"Filled" is the main verb of Col. 1:9-12. It is the first of two requests that Paul made of the Father on behalf of the Colossian believers. The other is for their walk to be worthy (Col. 1:10). Notice he links knowledge of God with a godly lifestyle (cf. Eph. 4:1,17; 5:2,15). Faith without works is dead (cf. James 2:14-26).

"knowledge of His will"

The content of this knowledge (epignōskō, i.e., experiential knowledge, cf. v.6) is the gospel. The gospel is (1) a body of truth to be believed; (2) a person to be received; and (3) a life like that person's to live. God's will is that individuals personally respond to Christ (cf. John 6:29,40) who is the goal of all "spiritual wisdom and understanding."

This verse is a play on the theology of the false teachers. This is confirmed by (1) Paul's use of "filled" (plerōma), one of the Gnostics' favorite terms for the aeons between the high god and angelic levels and (2) their emphasis on secret knowledge (cf. Col. 2:3). For Paul, all fullness and knowledge was in Christ, who was God's wisdom (sophia, cf. Col. 1:28; 2:3,23; 3:16; 4:5; Eph. 1:8,17; 3:10) and the convergence of all truth (sunesis, cf. Col. 2:2).

Notice the threefold repetition: "knowledge," "wisdom," and "understanding." This reflects the false teachers' emphasis on secret truth (cf. Col. 2:3). Christ is the truth of God (cf. John 14:6)!

1:10 "walk in a manner worthy" This is an aorist active infinitive. It is defined by four present participles (cf. Col. 1:10-12) which describes the worthy walk (cf. Col. 2:6; 3:7; 4:5; Eph. 2:10; 4:1,17; 5:2,15; 1 Thess. 2:12; 4:1). God's will is that His children reflect His character daily.

" bearing fruit in every good work"

For "fruit bearing" see note at Col. 1:6. This is the first of four present participles (cf. Col. 1:10-12) which describe worthy lives.

God's will is that believers live godly lives. The moral transformation of believers is evidence that the image of God has been restored! It serves as a bridge to evangelism. It reflects the believer's new family characteristics and shows who our true father is - God.

Biblical salvation is a free gift, which must result in a new and different life (cf. Eph. 2:8-9, 10).

May you see the light,
J.

Another long-winded post that completely ignores the question I asked.

Was it the baby who decided to be circumcised - or was it the parents obeying God?

 

[Johann]

Another long-winded post that completely ignores the question I asked.

Was it the baby who decided to be circumcised - or was it the parents obeying God?

Babies were NOT baptized according to Scripture

And YOU might want to show me where the Scriptures state that the Scriptures are out SOLE Authority. While you’re at it – why don’t you also show me where the Bible lists all of the Books that belon in it.

It took the God-given Authority of the Catholic Church to declare the Canon of Scripture in the 4th century.

In the meantime – I will show you where the Scriptures explicitly state that Sacred Tradition includes that which is SPOKEN as well as what is written.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

As for Baptism – both Peter and Paul baptized entire households on the faith of the leaders of those households.
Peter with the household of Cornelius (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14) and Paul with the Philippian Jailer’s household (Acts 16:23-33) and that of Stephanas (1Cor. 1:16).

1st century households often included 2 or 4 generations of people- of ALL ages - including children and infants.

A Bar or Bat Mitzvah is a coming of age ceremony for Jewish boys and girls when they reach the age of 12 or 13. This ceremony marks the time when a boy or girl becomes a Jewish adult. This means that they are now responsible for their own actions and can decide for themselves how they would like to practice Judaism.




Scriptural Age of Accountability

Is child baptism Scriptural? At what age does the Bible consider one an adult, and a candidate for immersion?

________________________________


What is the minimum age for baptism into Yahshua’s Name? The Apostle Peter clearly showed that one should be old enough to repent.

When the Jews were convicted of their sin, they asked what they should do. Peter responded in Acts 2:38, "Repent and be immersed every one of you in the Name of Yahshua the Messiah for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Obviously a person should be old enough to understand repentance before being baptized. What does the Bible mean by "repent?" Briefly, to turn completely from our wicked ways, stop doing those things that Yahweh condemns, and obediently follow in the footsteps of Yahshua. We are to be totally broken up over our past sins and vow not to repeat those things we know are wrong and sinful. When we do sin, we are to confess our sin and ask forgiveness through Yahshua.





Yahweh’s Assembly in Yahshua understands Scripturally that upon reaching the age of 20, Yahweh accepts one as being mature and an adult, therefore responsible for one’s actions. Let us now look at Scriptural support for the age of 20 in Yahweh's dealings with Israel .



Israelites Counted in Census at 20

Israelites were counted in the census beginning at the age of 20. The first chapter of Numbers deals with the polling of the various tribes, all counted from 20 years of age and over.

To indicate those considered a part of the body of Israel , Yahweh demanded that the people be numbered and those age 20 and over were then to pay a half-shekel tax.

"Every one that passes among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto Yahweh." (Ex. 30:14) This " Temple tax" was considered a ransom price, a payment of dues, exacted from all who were 20 and over as an acknowledgement of their responsibility as Israelites, Exodus 30:12-16; 38:26. Yahshua supported this tax, Matthew 17:24.



A Special Group: Ages 20 to 60

Israelites could dedicate themselves or a member of the family to Yahweh by being slaves of service in the Temple , Leviticus 27:1-8. Because only Levites were acceptable for this type of work in the Temple , others apparently gave a monetary equivalent instead.



Military Service Began at 20

Israelites were considered of age for military duty when they reached the age of 20. At this age they had matured in their thinking and could be relied upon to act responsibly and assume military duty in a trustworthy manner.

"From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel : you and Aaron shall number them by their armies." (Num. 1:3)

They then were mature enough to marry and established their own families apart from the parents.






When certain Israelites rebelled at crossing over the Jordan , wanting to remain on the other side, Yahweh’s anger flared, and He restated His condemnation of their attitude:

"Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed Me:" (Num. 32:11).

Even though the Israelites were redeemed by the blood of the lamb and rescued from Egypt , they remained carnal and rebelled against Yahweh.





Numbers 4:1-3 shows that the Levites initially began duties at age 30, but the age was evidently lowered to 20 by King David (1Chron. 23:24-26) because Israel was settled in the land, no longer carrying the tabernacle or vessels, and would permanently dwell in Jerusalem.

"For by the last words of David the Levites [were] numbered from twenty years old and above:" (1Chron. 23:27).

Upon returning from the Babylonian captivity, the repatriated Jews again took up pure worship. Levites 20 years or more were in charge of restoring the house of Yahweh:

"Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of Elohim at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of Yahweh." (Ezra 3:8)

Numbers 14:22 recounts the anger of Yahweh over Israel ’s tenth rebellion and the sentence is given in verse 29: "Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years and upward which have murmured against Me." Only the little ones under age 20 (verse 31) along with Joshua and Caleb would be allowed to enter the Promised Land.

This is probably the most revealing of Yahweh’s determination of the age of accountability. Upon reaching 20 years of age, most are willing to settle down and put away childish things. As Paul says,

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1Cor. 13:11)

Upon being immersed into Yahshua’s name, he or she is expected to follow in the footsteps of Yahshua and be an example to the world. We are to repent of our past life and stop doing those things that offend Yahweh and we are to keep His law. It is through obedience we are molded into the image of the Pattern Son and acceptable through Him.

Even though Yahweh swore that those 20 years and over would not enter the Promised Land because of their constant murmuring and rebellion, He ensured the younger generation that they would be under His loving protection: "But your little ones, which you said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised." (Numbers 14:31)

Moses repeated the covenant to Israel in the second giving of the Law in Deuteronomy. The new generation was reminded of the promise Yahweh had made with their parents concerning them: "Moreover your little ones, which you said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." (Deut. 1:39)

This new generation had been protected and guided by Yahweh throughout the 40 years wandering in the wilderness. The new generation is reminded: "And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and your shoe is not waxen old upon your foot." (Deut. 29:5) Their clothes did not get old, and their shoes did not wear out. He continues to protect His "little ones" even today.



Immersion for the Mature

The question arises concerning those who have not reached the age of 20, should they not be baptized when they profess to believe in Yahweh and want to be baptized, sometimes along with their family?

It has been our experience that often children are susceptible to mere emotions of the moment and desire to be a part of the activities only for fear of being "left out."

The Bible clearly records that only those who were mature adults were immersed, but some groups force into the reading of "household" the inclusion of children.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Babies were NOT baptized according to Scripture


A Bar or Bat Mitzvah is a coming of age ceremony for Jewish boys and girls when they reach the age of 12 or 13. This ceremony marks the time when a boy or girl becomes a Jewish adult. This means that they are now responsible for their own actions and can decide for themselves how they would like to practice Judaism.




Scriptural Age of Accountability

Is child baptism Scriptural? At what age does the Bible consider one an adult, and a candidate for immersion?

________________________________


What is the minimum age for baptism into Yahshua’s Name? The Apostle Peter clearly showed that one should be old enough to repent.

When the Jews were convicted of their sin, they asked what they should do. Peter responded in Acts 2:38, "Repent and be immersed every one of you in the Name of Yahshua the Messiah for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Obviously a person should be old enough to understand repentance before being baptized. What does the Bible mean by "repent?" Briefly, to turn completely from our wicked ways, stop doing those things that Yahweh condemns, and obediently follow in the footsteps of Yahshua. We are to be totally broken up over our past sins and vow not to repeat those things we know are wrong and sinful. When we do sin, we are to confess our sin and ask forgiveness through Yahshua.





Yahweh’s Assembly in Yahshua understands Scripturally that upon reaching the age of 20, Yahweh accepts one as being mature and an adult, therefore responsible for one’s actions. Let us now look at Scriptural support for the age of 20 in Yahweh's dealings with Israel .



Israelites Counted in Census at 20

Israelites were counted in the census beginning at the age of 20. The first chapter of Numbers deals with the polling of the various tribes, all counted from 20 years of age and over.

To indicate those considered a part of the body of Israel , Yahweh demanded that the people be numbered and those age 20 and over were then to pay a half-shekel tax.

"Every one that passes among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto Yahweh." (Ex. 30:14) This " Temple tax" was considered a ransom price, a payment of dues, exacted from all who were 20 and over as an acknowledgement of their responsibility as Israelites, Exodus 30:12-16; 38:26. Yahshua supported this tax, Matthew 17:24.



A Special Group: Ages 20 to 60

Israelites could dedicate themselves or a member of the family to Yahweh by being slaves of service in the Temple , Leviticus 27:1-8. Because only Levites were acceptable for this type of work in the Temple , others apparently gave a monetary equivalent instead.



Military Service Began at 20

Israelites were considered of age for military duty when they reached the age of 20. At this age they had matured in their thinking and could be relied upon to act responsibly and assume military duty in a trustworthy manner.

"From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel : you and Aaron shall number them by their armies." (Num. 1:3)

They then were mature enough to marry and established their own families apart from the parents.






When certain Israelites rebelled at crossing over the Jordan , wanting to remain on the other side, Yahweh’s anger flared, and He restated His condemnation of their attitude:

"Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed Me:" (Num. 32:11).

Even though the Israelites were redeemed by the blood of the lamb and rescued from Egypt , they remained carnal and rebelled against Yahweh.





Numbers 4:1-3 shows that the Levites initially began duties at age 30, but the age was evidently lowered to 20 by King David (1Chron. 23:24-26) because Israel was settled in the land, no longer carrying the tabernacle or vessels, and would permanently dwell in Jerusalem.

"For by the last words of David the Levites [were] numbered from twenty years old and above:" (1Chron. 23:27).

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1Cor. 13:11)

Upon being immersed into Yahshua’s name, he or she is expected to follow in the footsteps of Yahshua and be an example to the world. We are to repent of our past life and stop doing those things that offend Yahweh and we are to keep His law. It is through obedience we are molded into the image of the Pattern Son and acceptable through Him.

Even though Yahweh swore that those 20 years and over would not enter the Promised Land because of their constant murmuring and rebellion, He ensured the younger generation that they would be under His loving protection: "But your little ones, which you said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised." (Numbers 14:31)

Moses repeated the covenant to Israel in the second giving of the Law in Deuteronomy. The new generation was reminded of the promise Yahweh had made with their parents concerning them: "Moreover your little ones, which you said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." (Deut. 1:39)

This new generation had been protected and guided by Yahweh throughout the 40 years wandering in the wilderness. The new generation is reminded: "And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and your shoe is not waxen old upon your foot." (Deut. 29:5) Their clothes did not get old, and their shoes did not wear out. He continues to protect His "little ones" even today.



Immersion for the Mature

The question arises concerning those who have not reached the age of 20, should they not be baptized when they profess to believe in Yahweh and want to be baptized, sometimes along with their family?

It has been our experience that often children are susceptible to mere emotions of the moment and desire to be a part of the activities only for fear of being "left out."

The Bible clearly records that only those who were mature adults were immersed, but some groups force into the reading of "household" the inclusion of children.

Where does the Bible teach that the Bible is our final Authority.
MY Bible teaches that Christ's CHURCH is our final earthly authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Speaking of His Church - amd NOT to the individual - Jesus said:
Matt. 16:19, 18:18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:15
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Paul reiterates this teaching and drives home the point that it is the Church and NOT the Scriptures that is our final earhtly Authority.
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

If this were not the case the we wouldn't even HAVE a New Testament Canon of Scripture because that was declared by the Church some 300 years AFTER the last Apostle died.

As for full immersion "only" Baptism - this has NEVER been a teaching of the historic Christian faith. We read in the First centry Church document, the Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles):

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. ​

How do you thing 3000 ppepople were Baptized in Jerusalen oat Pentecost? The priests and scripbes would NEVER have allowed the Apostles baptize people into the name of Jesus Christ in the Temple pools. The ONLY way they coulod have accomplished this would have been by pouring.

 

[Illuminator]

Babies were NOT baptized according to Scripture

There is no scripture forbidding infant baptism.

A Bar or Bat Mitzvah is a coming of age ceremony for Jewish boys and girls when they reach the age of 12 or 13. This ceremony marks the time when a boy or girl becomes a Jewish adult. This means that they are now responsible for their own actions and can decide for themselves how they would like to practice Judaism.




Scriptural Age of Accountability

Is child baptism Scriptural? At what age does the Bible consider one an adult, and a candidate for immersion?

Scripture gives no age restrictions for baptism.

________________________________


What is the minimum age for baptism into Yahshua’s Name? The Apostle Peter clearly showed that one should be old enough to repent.

Yes, for adults, who require instructions on the meaning of baptism, that Peter gave. The same applies today.

When the Jews were convicted of their sin, they asked what they should do. Peter responded in Acts 2:38, "Repent and be immersed every one of you in the Name of Yahshua the Messiah for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Obviously a person should be old enough to understand repentance before being baptized. What does the Bible mean by "repent?" Briefly, to turn completely from our wicked ways, stop doing those things that Yahweh condemns, and obediently follow in the footsteps of Yahshua. We are to be totally broken up over our past sins and vow not to repeat those things we know are wrong and sinful. When we do sin, we are to confess our sin and ask forgiveness through Yahshua.

Repentance is the normal requirement for adults. You can't understand infant baptism if you reject the doctrine of Original Sin. All babies are born with it. Original Sin is not committed by a conscious choice, therefore it can be removed without a conscious choice.

The Bible clearly records that only those who were mature adults were immersed, but some groups force into the reading of "household" the inclusion of children.

So you are forced to exclude children from households. The Bible doesn't do that. Neither does any human group in all of human history are infants excluded from households. The notion is absurd.

To Explain Infant Baptism You Must Explain Original Sin

The Church’s teaching on infant baptism flows from the Church’s teachings on original sin and the sacrament of baptism. Click here for an explanation.

www.catholic.com

 

[Marymog]

Babies were NOT baptized according to Scripture

Quote the passage from Scripture that says babies were not baptized and I will join your church.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Babies were NOT baptized according to Scripture


A Bar or Bat Mitzvah is a coming of age ceremony for Jewish boys and girls when they reach the age of 12 or 13. This ceremony marks the time when a boy or girl becomes a Jewish adult. This means that they are now responsible for their own actions and can decide for themselves how they would like to practice Judaism.




Scriptural Age of Accountability

Is child baptism Scriptural? At what age does the Bible consider one an adult, and a candidate for immersion?

No, according to YOU babies were not baptized. Scripture is silent on the issue. It sugest that babies were baptized (entire families which include babies) but it does not say one way or the other. If you have a passage that says babies were not or should not be baptized, please provide it.

Confirmation is the Christian bat mitzvah...

 

[Marymog]

Instead of running to what the Church Fathers wrote-I go to what ancient rabbins wrote-problem is, I don't see their writings as authoritative-superseding what stands written-the dogmas and catechisms is diametrically opposed to what stands written.

Thanks
J.

Lol....lets be honest here Johann.

You seek out the writings of men who support what YOU believe and then you quote those men. If those men don't support what YOU believe then YOU reject them....but if YOU can find a quote from a man that supports what YOU believe then YOU accept them.

It is all about what YOU believe......and what YOU believe is not "diametrically opposed to what stands written"....is it kiddo?

I think myself and @BreadOfLife see right through your little ruse and have exposed you.

Keeping it real....Mary

 

[marks]

Interesting arguments! Of course, there is no Scripture prohibiting gargling with dragons either. But I don't suppose that means they practiced that. I hope no one tried!

Acts 8:36-37 KJV
36) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37) And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Does an infant believe, and is baptized? Or are they baptized in unbelief? Does baptism while in unbelief do anything for you beside getting you wet?

It seems to me that no, it would not. Otherwise we could save millions by traveling around with a big firehose, and sprinkling great crowds in the Name of the Father, Son, and Spirit. No?

Much love!