Doctors of the Church: St. Athanasius of Alexandria

[Illuminator]

Interesting arguments! Of course, there is no Scripture prohibiting gargling with dragons either. But I don't suppose that means they practiced that. I hope no one tried!

Acts 8:36-37 KJV
36) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37) And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Does an infant believe, and is baptized? Or are they baptized in unbelief? Does baptism while in unbelief do anything for you beside getting you wet?

It seems to me that no, it would not. Otherwise we could save millions by traveling around with a big firehose, and sprinkling great crowds in the Name of the Father, Son, and Spirit. No?

Much love!

You reject infant baptism because you reject the doctrine of Original Sin. It is not committed by a conscious choice, therefore it can be removed without conscious choice.

To Explain Infant Baptism You Must Explain Original Sin

The Church’s teaching on infant baptism flows from the Church’s teachings on original sin and the sacrament of baptism. Click here for an explanation.

www.catholic.com

 

[Marymog]

Two things?
Since you are not willing to give this video clip a listen-

Ep 100 | Catholicism vs. The Bible with Mike Gendron | Redeeming Truth-

Why don't you go to the site and read?

-and after reading-we can have a "simple discussion" Who is Mike Gendron? DO you know?

And is the Mass propitiatory?

Lol Johann...Hold on!!! HOLD ON!!!


You accept the writings/teachings of Mike Gendron, a former Catholic, but you reject the teachings/writings of the Apostolic Fathers?????????????


Do you ever read/accept the teachings/writings of former Protestants who converted to the Catholic Church? Or do you only accept the teachings/writings of men who left the Catholic Church??? We already know the answer to that question kiddo....you have exposed yourself as being dishonest.

You cherry pick teachings of men that agree with what YOU believe!!!!! But then say you don't cherry pick......

I don't think that you even realize how contradictory you are........do you?

 

[marks]

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

From whom?

It seems to me that some take upon themselves what Paul spoke for himself. He gave oral teaching, and he wrote Scripture. And he says, whether we wrote this to you, or told you , it's the same.

So we don't have cassette tapes of Paul's teaching, but we do have his letters.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You reject infant baptism because you reject the doctrine of Original Sin.

Nonsense.

I in no wise reject original sin. However, it's not lost on me that you've presumed to speak falsely for me, while ignoring what I actually wrote. Was it your intention to give an appearance of responding without actually responding, or were you just snapping at me?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is not committed by a conscious choice, therefore it can be removed without conscious choice.

Are you getting the firehose ready? We could buy a couple of fire tanker trucks, and drive around the country, you can spray one side of the road, I can spray the the other, continuing mass baptisms until we run out of water. Then refill, and on to the next town! It'll be the best money you or I have ever spent!

Yes?

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I in no wise reject original sin. However, it's not lost on me that you've presumed to speak falsely for me, while ignoring what I actually wrote. Was it your intention to give an appearance of responding without actually responding, or were you just snapping at me?

I'll tell you what is happening here-they take a snippet of your post-put a spin on it-and make YOU the dishonest person.

 

[Marymog]

Actually-if you wish--here is the contact info

[email protected]
(817) 379-5300

Mike Gendor-an ex-Catholic for 35 years.

Sources-verifiable.

Oh goodness....Sooooo Mike Gendor, and ex-Catholic, is a reliable source? But the men who were students of the Apostles are not????????????

Does that men ex-Protestants are reliable sources??????

Or even men who started the Protestant Reformation. Are they reliable???? You disagree with Calvin and Luther. does that concern you johhann?????????



@BreadOfLife , do you have any input?

 

[Marymog]

I'll tell you what is happening here-they take a snippet of your post-put a spin on it-and make YOU the dishonest person.

Nope-you are very desperate-and butchering the Scriptures.
4th time.
Where is a baby justified and and regenerated in the waters of baptism?

Lol....And YOU, Johann, don't 'butcher Scripture'???????????? YOU are not a "dishonest person"?

You are always right??????? Those that disagree with YOU are always dishonest and butcher Scripture???????????


You crack me up............It is always about YOU and what YOU believe...isn't it????????????

 

[marks]

I'll tell you what is happening here-they take a snippet of your post-put a spin on it-and make YOU the dishonest person.

I think they are doing the same to you!



Much love!

 

[Johann]

I think they are doing the same to you!

I have reached the point that I'm tired of "fighting"-about two days ago I was summoned and informed I am decimating characters with a possible ban-lasting a month.
I have lost interest on this Forum-looking for another.
Shalom
J.

 

[marks]

I have reached the point that I'm tired of "fighting"-about two days ago I was summoned and informed I am decimating characters with a possible ban-lasting a month.
I have lost interest on this Forum-looking for another.
Shalom
J.

I've been looking for another as well. So far nothing really grabs me.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I've been looking for another as well. So far nothing really grabs me.

Much love!

Shalom marks

 

[Illuminator]

Oh goodness....Sooooo Mike Gendor, and ex-Catholic, is a reliable source? But the men who were students of the Apostles are not????????????

Does that men ex-Protestants are reliable sources??????

Or even men who started the Protestant Reformation. Are they reliable???? You disagree with Calvin and Luther. does that concern you johhann?????????



@BreadOfLife , do you have any input?

I do, but Calvinists will ignore it. Michael Lofton responds to claims made by protestants Mike Gendron and Costi Hinn about the Catholic Church.

 

[Illuminator]

Nonsense.

I in no wise reject original sin. However, it's not lost on me that you've presumed to speak falsely for me, while ignoring what I actually wrote. Was it your intention to give an appearance of responding without actually responding, or were you just snapping at me?

Much love!

If you understand Original Sin as it was taught for the first 1700 years of Christianity, you wouldn't reject infant baptism. Luther and Calvin baptized infants, it was not a reformist issue (but Calvin disagreed with Luther of baptismal regeneration) and the divisions haven't stopped since.

 

[marks]

If you understand Original Sin as it was taught for the first 1700 years of Christianity, you wouldn't reject infant baptism. Luther and Calvin baptized infants, it was not a reformist issue (but Calvin disagreed with Luther of baptismal regeneration) and the divisions haven't stopped since.

Sure thing, If I understood it "your way" I'd agree with you.

But you never answered my question . . . I guess you have. But just to confirm, you are saying that one need not believe in God or Jesus or anything like that, only be dipped in water with the right words spoken and that person is eternally saved? Is that right? No need for repentance, or faith, or choice, just get them into the water?

Much love!

 

[BreadOfLife]

From whom?

It seems to me that some take upon themselves what Paul spoke for himself. He gave oral teaching, and he wrote Scripture. And he says, whether we wrote this to you, or told you , it's the same.

So we don't have cassette tapes of Paul's teaching, but we do have his letters.

Much love!

No, we don’t have cassette tapes – BUT we have Apostolic Tradition and Church Authority (Matt. 16:18, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Jesus didn’t tell the leaders of His Church, “Whoever READS what you write reads what I wrote.”
He said:
Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

As I stated before – Paul reiterates this teaching in 2 Thess., as he puts ORAL tradition on par with Scripture:

2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

If it wasn’t for Church Authority – YOU wouldn’t even Have a Bible to read. It was the Authority of the Catholic Church that declared the Canon of the New Testament in the 4th century.

The Bible does NOT come with a list of Books that belong in it . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh goodness....Sooooo Mike Gendor, and ex-Catholic, is a reliable source? But the men who were students of the Apostles are not????????????

Does that men ex-Protestants are reliable sources??????

Or even men who started the Protestant Reformation. Are they reliable???? You disagree with Calvin and Luther. does that concern you johhann?????????



@BreadOfLife , do you have any input?

An ex-Catholic Protestant is NO more an “expert” on Catholic theology than an ex-Protestant Catholic.
Unfortunately, our friend @Johann has been seduced by Mike Gendron’s fairy tales and outright lies.

For a good expose on Gendton’s nonsense – go to:

Catholic Apologist, Tim Staples also went head-to-head with Gendron a few years back in a week-long debate series called, Staples vs. Gendron. Staples handily disposes of Gendron’s positions.

 

[Illuminator]

Sure thing, If I understood it "your way" I'd agree with you.

But you never answered my question . . . I guess you have. But just to confirm, you are saying that one need not believe in God or Jesus or anything like that, only be dipped in water with the right words spoken and that person is eternally saved? Is that right? No need for repentance, or faith, or choice, just get them into the water?

Much love!

Again, Original Sin, which you claim you accept, is not committed by a conscious choice. You conveniently leave out the role of the parents, who have their babies baptized by a conscious choice. It's similar to the role of the Jewish parents who have their babies circumcized, and as Paul states baptism is the new circumcision. You keep resisting this fact. Adults who are to be baptized must undergo a period of instructions so they know exactly what they are doing, and repentance and belief in God is mandatory. Any sacrament is useless without proper intent, so you make up a false intent, then mock it. Atheists use the same tactics.

Churches that practice infant baptism include123:

• Roman Catholics
• Eastern Orthodox
• Oriental Orthodox
• Assyrian Church of the East
• Anglicans
• Lutherans
• Methodists

You don't complain about Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists who baptized infants. Just Catholics. That leaves you in a fringe minority, offshoots of offshoots that originated well after the Prot Revolt. Since you have no allegiance to any faith tradition of any kind, you think you can invent anything you want.

You offer no explanation why no one objected to infant baptism for 1700 years.

 

[Illuminator]

An ex-Catholic Protestant is NO more an “expert” on Catholic theology than an ex-Protestant Catholic.
Unfortunately, our friend @Johann has been seduced by Mike Gendron’s fairy tales and outright lies.

For a good expose on Gendton’s nonsense – go to:

Catholic Apologist, Tim Staples also went head-to-head with Gendron a few years back in a week-long debate series called, Staples vs. Gendron. Staples handily disposes of Gendron’s positions.

I've listened carefully to Mike Gendron's claims. He is a Bible-twisting liar who bears false witness, as exposed in the video.

 

[marks]

That leaves you in a fringe minority, offshoots of offshoots that started well after the Prot Revolt.

It leaves you asserting that you need not have faith to be saved. And that is flatly contradicted in the Bible.

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Much love!