Does doctrine guarantee anything?

[rockytopva]

It is of my discernment that the churches unraveled as seven...

Ephesus - Apostolic - Paul records all Asia as having forsaken him
Smyrna - Martyr - Foxes has the Roman persecutions as ten
Pergamos - Orthodox... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Materialistic - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

In my family we have Catholics, Methodists, Pentecostals, Charismatics. And, mysteriously enough, I was brought up Baptist. I have asked my ex-Catholic dad, 'Why were we brought up Baptist?" In which his reply was that because our old Pastor Debour was such a great family man. In which, he was. Poor Pastor Debour decided to get into a construction project that he could not afford and the church dismissed him. They got someone who could not relate to anyone except John Calvin and the next thing you know the church was handed a major set b ack.

We had an Aunt Seraphine who was Catholic and the most charitable woman I knew. She was in the catering business and would have the whole family over for Thanksgiving. I have never tasted turkey, dressing, gravy, potatoes, bread, and apple pie so good. I always showed enormous gratitude and compliments like, "I have never tasted anything so good."

I think that seven churches completed the church. I also believe that we have a good bit of wheat and tares in each movement. I cannot believe that any particular doctrine guarantees anything. In my experience and journey in history I find many who understood doctrine, but were lacking in true spirituality.

True spirituality is akin to the same stuff that went into the creation of the universe. As E = mc2 so we can divide and conclude that all matter is made up of light and energy as m = E/c2.

There is also a spiritual energy (motivation, warmth, love) and light (faith, hope, charity, joy) that is very much needed in a Christians life. I marvel that this has been missed in so many lives through the history of the church.

I cannot believe that the understanding of doctrine is of any help in creating proper Christian spiritual motivation.

 

[marksman]

I cannot believe that the understanding of doctrine is of any help in creating proper Christian spiritual motivation.

Read what the bible says about doctrine. In the New Testament it means "instruction."...................

Matt. 7:28 And it happened, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at His doctrine.

Mark 11:18 And the scribes and the chief priests heard. And they sought how they might destroy Him, for they feared Him, because all the crowd was astonished at His doctrine.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, My doctrine is not Mine, but of the One who sent Me.

John 7:17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the doctrine, whether it is of God, or I speak from Myself.




Acts 2:42 And they were continuing steadfastly in the doctrine of the apostles, and in fellowship, and in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.


Acts 13:12 Then seeing the thing happening, the proconsul believed, being astounded at the doctrine of the Lord.


Ephesians 4:14 so that we may no longer be infants, being blown and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the sleight of men, in craftiness to the deceit of error,


1Tim 4:6 Having suggested these things to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, having been nourished by the Words of faith, and by the good doctrine which you have followed.





1Tim 4:16 Give attention to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this, you will both deliver yourself and those hearing you.


2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,


2 Tim 4:3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear;


2 John 1:9 Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ, this one has the Father and the Son.

This is a not a comprehensive list, rather a selection to show that doctrine (instruction) is essential for the maturing of believers 2 Timothy 4:3 is interesting as it is is being played out right now in the church. Take away doctrine and you take away maturity and produce a candy floss type of christianity. And 2 John 1:9 talks about the "doctrine of Christ."

 

[truthquest]

I think we can read the doctrines in scriptures and we can know them and even understand them but unless they are written on the tablets of our hearts then they don't guarantee anything. Prov. 7:1 My son, keep my words and hide my commandments in your heart. 2Keep my commandments and live, and my law like the pupil of the eye. 3Tie them on your neck and write them upon the tablets of your heart....2Cor. 3:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.....

 

[aspen]

Doctrine doesn't save

 

[rockytopva]

I was brought up in the Marine Corp and it was not considered manly for men to touch one another. I was also cold and arrogant. I was also, having been brought up Baptist, my religion was in my head and whatever did not fit in the mental web was rejected. I am afraid that I was rude to my fellow Catholics. I knew one by the name of Bob in which he reached out with a hand of fellowship in which I heartedly refused. I have tried to look up Bob in the last decade to apologize but have never found his contact address.

My point of view changed with the likes of the early 1900's type Pentecostalism in which I spent the summer after high school with my grandmother and had a rather eventful run in with the Pentecostal Holiness church, as this area of Virginia was in a time capsule, I got an experience of early 1900's Pentecostal anointing.

I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness church not because of the tongues, but because of the people, which were the finest I have ever met in my entire life. Pictured below is Dallas Linkous JR, which is probably the 'shoutingest' man I have ever met in my entire life. As a teenager I would put up hay with him and go with him to the revivals at night. Both him and his wife were tongue talking, shouting, happy type Pentecostals. The joy was there equally there at home as well as at work. Every one of the fruits of the spirit lamped within their lives like a great over heated pot belly stove. There was also a decency among the people like I have never seen. My grandfather was good friends with Dallas. In the 1950's they would have revivals that would go for weeks and early in the AM. Granny said that grandfather could worship the Lord until 2 AM and not have any trouble at all rising at 6 AM for work.

I remember well as a young man Dallas coming behind me to pray with me at the alter, with tears running down his cheek and onto my neck. As a guy who did not like to be touched this was quite profound. At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, “Run Baby Run,” by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again… “Put the book down.” I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, “Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?” In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. “Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!” I would spend the rest of the summer rejoicing with the people and in revival.

There were about a dozen old gentlemen who would sit on the front pew. We would have altar calls after the sermon and people were encouraged to pray. As people were laid out around the altar the older gentleman would weep. If one would catch my amazked eyes looking at him he would point to all the souls laid out about the altar and cry, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!"

I have since met many in my lifetime in Pentecostal circles who made a noise... But had little charity. The Pentecostalism I run into was rooted in Methodism...

1. Justification - By faith
2. Salvation - The sinners prayer
3. Sanctification - With a sweet spirit
4. Witness of the Spirit - Pentecostals would accept this with tongues.

It is amazing to me that the Pentecostal Holiness doctrine has not changed, but the people have. The younger generations are nothing like the folk I just mentioned. If Pentecostal Holiness were to doctrinize the above methods the students would come out arrogant that they had been saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost. And miss the point of the doctrine all together.


----------------------------------------

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, - Galatians 4:19

Apparently the Galatians had found Christ, lost him trying to following the laws of Moses, and then Paul sensed the need of leading the people back to the Christ whom they ignorantly forsook.

I would say that this can occur to any Christian. We can follow the wrong road away from Christ if we are not careful!

 

[marksman]

Doctrine doesn't save

No one said they did.

 

[JimParker]

Doctrine doesn't save

No, it does not. [SIZE=12pt]J[/SIZE]esus does t[SIZE=12pt]h[/SIZE]at.

[SIZE=12pt]H[/SIZE]owever, it does te[SIZE=12pt]ll[/SIZE] us w[SIZE=12pt]h[/SIZE]at we must do to be saved and [SIZE=12pt]h[/SIZE]ow to remain saved unti[SIZE=12pt]l[/SIZE] t[SIZE=12pt]h[/SIZE]e end.

Christianity without doctrine is [SIZE=12pt]l[/SIZE]i[SIZE=12pt]k[/SIZE]e an airp[SIZE=12pt]l[/SIZE]ane without win[SIZE=12pt]g[/SIZE]s.

 

[aspen]

No, it does not. Jesus does that.

However, it does tell us what we must do to be saved and how to remain saved until the end.

Christianity without doctrine is like an airplane without wings.

I agree - doctrine is part of religion and necessary for a quality relationship with Jesus. I believe my point in my post (8 months old) was to communicate that doctrine can be corrected.

 

[JimParker]

I agree - doctrine is part of religion and necessary for a quality relationship with Jesus. I believe my point in my post (8 months old) was to communicate that doctrine can be corrected.

I must remember to check post dates.

 

[ATP]

[SIZE=12pt]H[/SIZE]owever, it does te[SIZE=12pt]ll[/SIZE] us w[SIZE=12pt]h[/SIZE]at we must do to be saved and [SIZE=12pt]h[/SIZE]ow to remain saved unti[SIZE=12pt]l[/SIZE] t[SIZE=12pt]h[/SIZE]e end.

Scripture doesn't teach us that we can be saved, then unsaved, then saved and unsaved again, then saved.

 

[JimParker]

Scripture doesn't teach us that we can be saved, then unsaved, then saved and unsaved again, then saved.

Salvation not an event; it is a process. We have free will to disobey God up until our last breath and the temptation of the devil will not abate until that last breath.

Even Paul did not consider even himself to be "saved" according to modern, western, evangelical usage of the word.

Phl 3:12-14

Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

And

1 Cor 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

We are on a journey. Christ is our constant companion and our ultimate goal.

 

[ATP]

Salvation not an event; it is a process.

Incorrect. Salvation is the one time event. Sanctification is the ongoing process.

 

[JimParker]

Incorrect. Salvation is the one time event. Sanctification is the ongoing process.

Ah! I see. Then Paul was wrong. How wonderful that you are able to correct him!

Bless your heart!

 

[ATP]

Ah! I see. Then Paul was wrong. How wonderful that you are able to correct him!

Bless your heart!

He was speaking about sanctification. Running the race and winning the prize refers to the five crowns in heaven.

Phil 3:14 NIV I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

1 - CROWN 1 - CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS— LOVED THE LORD'S APPEARING - 2 Tim 4:8
2 - CROWN 2 - INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN— DISCIPLINED BODIES / SELF-CONTROL - 1 Cor 9:25-27
3 - CROWN 3 - CROWN OF LIFE— ENDURED PATIENTLY THRU TRIALS - James 1:12, Rev 2:10
4 - CROWN 4 - CROWN OF GLORY— GODLY LEADERS WHO WERE EXAMPLES TO FLOCK - 1 Pet 5:2-4
5 - CROWN 5 - CROWN OF REJOICING— SOUL WINNERS CROWN - 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3

 

[OzSpen]

Ah! I see. Then Paul was wrong. How wonderful that you are able to correct him!

Bless your heart!

To what were you referring, Jim?

 

[OzSpen]

I cannot believe that the understanding of doctrine is of any help in creating proper Christian spiritual motivation.

So from where does one obtain Christian spiritual motivation if it is not from correct, orthodox teaching? Do you think I should gain Christian spiritual motivation from the Mormons and JWs who knock on my door and want me to join them in door-knocking after going through their courses?

What use is Scripture? Second Timothy 3:14-17 (ESV) states:

as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

So, what I have learned and firmly believed from childhood (the 'sacred writings') are able to make me 'wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus'. What's the purpose of the God-breathed Scripture that we have? To teach, reprove, correct, and train in righteousness. For what purpose? That the people of God 'may be competent, equipped for every good work'.

THEREFORE, contrary to what you stated, the understanding of doctrine (what I have learned from Scripture) will not only help with proper Christian spiritual motivation, but also it will equip believers for every good work.

Seems to me that you are ignoring the importance of Bible teaching (doctrine) and its spiritual motivation and equipping value.

Oz

 

[JimParker]

He was speaking about sanctification. Running the race and winning the prize refers to the five crowns in heaven.

Phil 3:14 NIV I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

1 - CROWN 1 - CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS— LOVED THE LORD'S APPEARING - 2 Tim 4:8
2 - CROWN 2 - INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN— DISCIPLINED BODIES / SELF-CONTROL - 1 Cor 9:25-27
3 - CROWN 3 - CROWN OF LIFE— ENDURED PATIENTLY THRU TRIALS - James 1:12, Rev 2:10
4 - CROWN 4 - CROWN OF GLORY— GODLY LEADERS WHO WERE EXAMPLES TO FLOCK - 1 Pet 5:2-4
5 - CROWN 5 - CROWN OF REJOICING— SOUL WINNERS CROWN - 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3

Yes I understand. I was an ordained Pentecostal Holiness minister and missionary and earned an MA in theology from Fuller Seminary before returning to the church which Christ established; Orthodoxy. That is modern, western, innovation. It preaches exceedingly well and the more zealous of the modern, western, evangelical, congregation take notes. The preachers of the early church would be appalled at the self-centeredness of such a list of "prizes". We don't strive to "win crowns" for ourselves; we strive to be obedient servants to our Lord so that HE is glorified. It's not about us; it's about HIM.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your FATHER in heaven.

Concerning "sanctification":

What the early church taught is that Christ Himself "gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; (Eph 4:11-13) so that the believers "may be partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) through a precess of being conformed to the image of Christ. (Ro 8:29)

We call the process "deification" referring to the restoration of the likeness of God which was damaged by the fall. It is very similar to what the Western Evangelical churches call "sanctification." It encompasses two concepts. First, by the Word becoming flesh, (John 1:14) Christ united created human flesh to uncreated divinity. (We are said to be "in Christ.") Second, by our efforts, with the aid and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, we strive to conform to God's design for mankind so that we may be united to God in Christ and, thereby have eternal life.

The early church did not teach that one was permanently and irrevocably "saved" by confessing Christ as one's Lord and Savior. That confession is simply the starting line on the journey to the goal of eternal life and the "prize" of final salvation is not guaranteed.
And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an
imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body
and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. (1Co 9:25-27)

But we don't expect rewards for conforming to what God designed us to be. We strive for and look forward to the joy of being united to God in Christ as the bride of Christ who becomes one flesh with her spouse. (Eph 5:32)


But, if it makes you happy to frame it in that manner, that's great! Striving to "win" those crowns can't be a bad thing.

 

[JimParker]

To what were you referring, Jim?

I was referring to the statement: "Salvation is the one time event. Sanctification is the ongoing process."

 

[Forsakenone]

Does doctrine guarantee anything?

What does Jesus say about doctrine? I believe that the passage John 11:9-10 is one example wherein it is it is written:
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? There are 12 hours in a Day, there are 24 hours in a day.

Deut 8:3 that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Matt 4:4 It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


As written in Genesis 1:3-5
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:Gen 1:16

But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

So what has to occur so that there is Day and Night where you stand?

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12


Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Ecclesiastes 6:6

So does doctrine guarantee anything? It all depends. Is it the doctrine of God or the doctrine of man?
A proverbial truth holds that if it is free is not of God, if it is sold it is not of God.

 

[ATP]

The early church did not teach that one was permanently and irrevocably "saved" by confessing Christ as one's Lord and Savior. That confession is simply the starting line on the journey to the goal of eternal life and the "prize" of final salvation is not guaranteed.

Incorrect. Rom 8:33-39 ESV.

We don't strive to "win crowns" for ourselves; we strive to be obedient servants to our Lord so that HE is glorified. It's not about us; it's about HIM.

I agree.

And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an
imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body
and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. (1Co 9:25-27)

1 Cor 9:27 NIV - Paul is referring to being a castaway by men, not God. Notice it says, "after I have preached to others"..

Striving to "win" those crowns can't be a bad thing.

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.