The False Doctrine of Infant Baptism

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Rella ~ I am a woman

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2023
1,503
830
113
76
SW PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So do Calvinist consider it necessary to be baptized if they already 'saved' under God's predetermined plan
Excellent question Hobie.

I can only talk of my church that follows the mindset of predestination BECAUSE ... I think avi_headscratch.gif... Presbyterianism has its roots in the teachings of John Calvin, a leader of the Protestant Reformation.

So your question about baptism if they believe that... (I say they because I do not subscribe to predestination at all... thanks to quite a learning I have gotten over the past 12 years or so from a mixture of forums such as this....
and now understanding The doctrine of predestination is not the central theme of the Bible; the center is Christ and salvation through repentance and faith in him LUKE 24:44-47 and 2 TIM 3:15.

Anyway... all predestined believers do consider it necessary to be baptised. The ages and hows are not for now.

Why?

John Calvin says this

Calvin's Doctrine of Baptism​

Extract​

John Calvin succeeds in stating his position on baptism in such a way that it becomes not only an integral part of his entire system of theological thought, but also an occasion for a very lucid exposition of the central themes characteristic of his theology. Calvin achieves this by carefully delineating the proper manner of approach to the discussion of the doctrine of baptism. Specifically, Calvin insists that the meaning of baptism cannot be genuinely understood if we take the external ceremonies as the point of departure for our discussion. Instead, it is of basic importance first and foremost to be concerned with the promises of God offered in baptism, never forgetting that these are the inward mysteries for whose sake the outward signs are present. Such an approach is possible and even necessary because of the relationship which exists between the word and the sacramental sign. The sacrament never exists autonomously; it is, as we shall soon discuss in more detail, rather like an appendix that is attached for the purpose of confirmation and ratification to an already clearly given divine word of promise.

Did you notice this last sentence.

This was my church's stand. Baptise infants and then 12 years later after study your confirmation.

Wrong or right this was the beliefs of a self proclaimed prophet.... (Ive posted that info elsewhere and if I post again ill be out of characters)

@Red Baker.

Hobie asked a very valid question. As you have a different view on predestination can you answer him and also
do you know what Calvin was meaning in my quote?
 
T

Tulipbee

Guest
Excellent question Hobie.

I can only talk of my church that follows the mindset of predestination BECAUSE ... I think View attachment 40008... Presbyterianism has its roots in the teachings of John Calvin, a leader of the Protestant Reformation.

So your question about baptism if they believe that... (I say they because I do not subscribe to predestination at all... thanks to quite a learning I have gotten over the past 12 years or so from a mixture of forums such as this....
and now understanding The doctrine of predestination is not the central theme of the Bible; the center is Christ and salvation through repentance and faith in him LUKE 24:44-47 and 2 TIM 3:15.

Anyway... all predestined believers do consider it necessary to be baptised. The ages and hows are not for now.

Why?

John Calvin says this

Calvin's Doctrine of Baptism​

Extract​

John Calvin succeeds in stating his position on baptism in such a way that it becomes not only an integral part of his entire system of theological thought, but also an occasion for a very lucid exposition of the central themes characteristic of his theology. Calvin achieves this by carefully delineating the proper manner of approach to the discussion of the doctrine of baptism. Specifically, Calvin insists that the meaning of baptism cannot be genuinely understood if we take the external ceremonies as the point of departure for our discussion. Instead, it is of basic importance first and foremost to be concerned with the promises of God offered in baptism, never forgetting that these are the inward mysteries for whose sake the outward signs are present. Such an approach is possible and even necessary because of the relationship which exists between the word and the sacramental sign. The sacrament never exists autonomously; it is, as we shall soon discuss in more detail, rather like an appendix that is attached for the purpose of confirmation and ratification to an already clearly given divine word of promise.

Did you notice this last sentence.

This was my church's stand. Baptise infants and then 12 years later after study your confirmation.

Wrong or right this was the beliefs of a self proclaimed prophet.... (Ive posted that info elsewhere and if I post again ill be out of characters)

@Red Baker.

Hobie asked a very valid question. As you have a different view on predestination can you answer him and also
do you know what Calvin was meaning in my quote?
Ah, Hobie, you've thrown a theological curveball, and Rella steps up to the plate with a response that's like a theological home run. It's a game of doctrinal baseball, and the bases are loaded with questions.

Rella, you tackle Hobie's question like a theological quarterback, leading with the perspective of predestination in Presbyterianism. It's like you're in the huddle, strategizing your theological play.

And then, you drop a bombshell – you don't subscribe to predestination. It's like a plot twist in the theological drama. A non-predestined player in a predestined playbook! The crowd goes wild.

But wait, you redirect the focus to Christ, emphasizing that predestination isn't the central theme; it's all about Jesus, repentance, and faith. It's like a theological pep talk, rallying the team around the true MVP – Christ.

Now, you quote John Calvin, the theological maestro, on baptism. Calvin's talking about promises, mysteries, and sacramental signs. It's like a theological symphony, with Calvin as the conductor, orchestrating the divine melody.

The last sentence – it's like Calvin dropping the mic on the sacrament, comparing it to an appendix attached for confirmation. It's not the kind of appendix you'd find in a medical textbook; it's a theological appendix, confirming the divine promises.

And then, you pass the baton to Red Baker, like a relay race of theological perspectives. It's like the Olympics of doctrinal discussions, and Red Baker's got the next leg of the relay.

So, Rella, you've taken us on a theological rollercoaster, from predestination to sacramental symphonies. Now, we're eagerly awaiting Red Baker's move in this theological chess match. The doctrinal drama continues! ⚾
 
T

Tulipbee

Guest
It's a moot point because they are not automatically saved as they suppose.
Big Boy Johnson, Hobie, gather around, my theological jesters! Let's unravel the divine comedy of Calvinism, where the script is written in predestination ink and the punchlines echo through the Institutes.
Now, Big Boy, you're throwing some theological shade on our Calvinist friends, questioning the automatic salvation in their divine drama. Well, in the Calvinistic script, it's not an automatic ticket; it's a divine dance.
Picture Calvin stepping into the conversation, saying, "Ah, my dear friends, salvation isn't a spiritual vending machine with predetermined snacks. It's a grand symphony where election and faith do a divine tango. Baptism, well, it's the ceremonial dance floor where the elect show off their moves."
Let's add some Calvinistic humor with a Bible quote, Ephesians 1:4-5 (ESV): "Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ."
Hobie, my comedic companion, you've brought up the topic of baptism in this divine dance. Calvin might chime in, saying, "Baptism, dear Hobie, is like the predestined RSVP to the heavenly ball. It's not the VIP pass, but it's the Calvinistic waltz where the chosen ones take a splash in the waters of divine appointment."
Now, as we waltz through the theological ballroom, let's not forget to shed some light on Arminianism, our theological foils. Picture Calvin's ghostly chuckle as he quotes Romans 9:16 (ESV): "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Big Boy, Hobie, in this divine comedy, let's appreciate the Calvinistic dance, where election leads, faith follows, and baptism is the ceremonial twirl. Any theological dance moves you'd like to add to this divine comedy, or shall we let the Calvinistic symphony play on?
 

Hobie

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2009
2,553
980
113
South Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Excellent question Hobie.

I can only talk of my church that follows the mindset of predestination BECAUSE ... I think View attachment 40008... Presbyterianism has its roots in the teachings of John Calvin, a leader of the Protestant Reformation.

So your question about baptism if they believe that... (I say they because I do not subscribe to predestination at all... thanks to quite a learning I have gotten over the past 12 years or so from a mixture of forums such as this....
and now understanding The doctrine of predestination is not the central theme of the Bible; the center is Christ and salvation through repentance and faith in him LUKE 24:44-47 and 2 TIM 3:15.

Anyway... all predestined believers do consider it necessary to be baptised. The ages and hows are not for now.

Why?

John Calvin says this

Calvin's Doctrine of Baptism​

Extract​

John Calvin succeeds in stating his position on baptism in such a way that it becomes not only an integral part of his entire system of theological thought, but also an occasion for a very lucid exposition of the central themes characteristic of his theology. Calvin achieves this by carefully delineating the proper manner of approach to the discussion of the doctrine of baptism. Specifically, Calvin insists that the meaning of baptism cannot be genuinely understood if we take the external ceremonies as the point of departure for our discussion. Instead, it is of basic importance first and foremost to be concerned with the promises of God offered in baptism, never forgetting that these are the inward mysteries for whose sake the outward signs are present. Such an approach is possible and even necessary because of the relationship which exists between the word and the sacramental sign. The sacrament never exists autonomously; it is, as we shall soon discuss in more detail, rather like an appendix that is attached for the purpose of confirmation and ratification to an already clearly given divine word of promise.

Did you notice this last sentence.

This was my church's stand. Baptise infants and then 12 years later after study your confirmation.

Wrong or right this was the beliefs of a self proclaimed prophet.... (Ive posted that info elsewhere and if I post again ill be out of characters)

@Red Baker.

Hobie asked a very valid question. As you have a different view on predestination can you answer him and also
do you know what Calvin was meaning in my quote?
But that is a contradiction, to baptize babies and expect them to grasp the doctrines Calvin to say nothing of 'predestination' and say they getting 'the promises of God' or that one can give it to them when they dont even understand what is being given..
 
T

Tulipbee

Guest
But that is a contradiction, to baptize babies and expect them to grasp the doctrines Calvin to say nothing of 'predestination' and say they getting 'the promises of God' or that one can give it to them when they dont even understand what is being given..
Ah, Hobie, diving into the deep waters of predestination and baptism, are we? Let me put on my Calvinistic comedian hat and shed some light on this theological rollercoaster.

Firstly, Calvin's take on baptism is quite the theological tango. He insists that we shouldn't just focus on the external ceremonies but rather on the promises of God offered in baptism. It's like saying, "Don't just admire the dance moves; pay attention to the rhythm, baby!"

Now, your church's stance on baptizing infants and then confirming them after a theological boot camp at the age of 12 is an interesting twist. Calvin seems to suggest that baptism is like an appendix attached to a divine word of promise. It's not floating around independently; it's there for confirmation and ratification, like the cherry on top of a theological sundae.

But Hobie, you've caught a contradiction here, my friend! Baptizing babies and expecting them to grasp Calvin's doctrines, especially the mind-bending concept of predestination, does sound like trying to teach quantum physics to a toddler. It's a theological conundrum wrapped in a mystery, or as Calvin might say, a divine enigma.

In the end, whether it's right or wrong, it seems your church took a plunge into the Calvinistic pool, sprinkled with a dash of infant baptism and a confirmation cherry on top. Calvin would probably appreciate the commitment to the dance of theological intricacies, even if it involves some fancy footwork with the little ones. Keep waltzing through those doctrines, Hobie!
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2023
1,503
830
113
76
SW PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But that is a contradiction, to baptize babies ...
I understand.
Before the words of baptism, ( The in the name of the Father etc,) the pastor looks at the infant and says:

[Child’s name],
For you Jesus Christ came into the world:
For you he lived and showed God’s love;
For you he suffered the darkness of Calvary
And cried at the last, “It is accomplished”;
For you he triumphed over death
And rose in newness of life;
For you he ascended to reign at God’s right hand.
All this he did for you, [child’s name],
Though you do no not know it yet.
And so the word of Scripture is fulfilled:
“We love because God loved us first.”
Book of Common Order, Church of Scotland

Infant baptism​

Does infant baptism make the baby a Christian?
Technically, no. God’s grace is the saving action. Infant baptism is a witness to that grace, but does not hold magical powers to save. Thus, we do not believe that unbaptized infants are either doomed or saved. Salvation is the work of God.

Why is baptism done as part of a worship service?
The child’s parents and the congregation make promises to nurture the baptized child in the Christian faith.

Is anything expected of the child?
In promising to share with the child the good news of God’s grace in Jesus Christ, the parents and congregation hope that the child eventually will come to trust those claims and promises, and publicly profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

It is after this that there follows a 12 to 13 year learning period that I have written so many times here and elsewhere I am sure you know it

After, you received your first Holy Communion , (Another Sacrament in the Presbyterian church because it was commanded by Jesus.) And if you dont call it a sacrament...WEBSTER does

sacrament​

1a : a Christian rite (such as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality
(And we all know how you "all" regard baptism as Jesus commanded.....)
b: a religious rite or observance comparable to a Christian sacrament

The following article says thing in a more concise way then I can. If I run out of room, you can finish reading it here. A Brief Defense of Infant Baptism

A Brief Defense of Infant Baptism​

One of the best things I get to do as a pastor is to administer the sacrament of infant baptism to the covenant children in my congregation. Before each baptism, I take a few minutes to explain why we practice infant baptism in our church. My explanation always includes some–but rarely is there time for all–of the following:

It our great privilege this morning to administer that sacrament of baptism to one of our little infants. We do not believe that there is anything magical about the water we apply to the child. The water does not wash away original sin or save the child. We do not presume that this child is regenerate (though he may be), nor do we believe that every child who gets baptized will automatically go to heaven. We baptize infants not out of superstition or tradition or because we like cute babies. We baptize infants because they are covenant children and should receive the sign of the covenant.

In Genesis 15 God made a covenant with Abraham. This covenant was sealed with the sign of circumcision in Genesis 17. God promised to bless Abraham. For Abraham this meant two things in particular, offspring and land. But at the heart of the covenant was God’s promise that he would be a God to Abraham and his children (Gen. 17:7, 8).

Circumcision was not just a physical thing, marking out ethnic Jews. Circumcision was full of spiritual meaning. The circumcision of the flesh was always meant to correspond with circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:25-29). It pointed to humility, new birth, and a new way of life (Lev. 26:40-42; Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 6:10; 9:25). In short, circumcision was a sign of justification. Paul says in Romans 4:11 that Abraham “received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.” God’s own interpretation of circumcision is that it was much more than just a physical sign for national Israel.

Remarkably, though, this deeply spiritual sign was given to Ishmael as well as Isaac, even though only Isaac was the continuation of the promised line. The spiritual sign was not just for those who already embraced the spiritual reality. It was to be administered to Abraham and his sons. Circumcision was not a simple equation. It didn’t automatically mean the recipient of the sign was in possession of the thing signified. Circumcision, like baptism, also pointed to belonging, discipleship, covenant obligations, and allowed for future faith that would take hold of the realities symbolized. Just as there were some in Paul’s day who were circumcised but not really circumcised (Rom. 2:25-29), some children of Abraham who were not truly children of Abraham (Rom. 9:6-8), so in our day there are some who are baptized who are not truly baptized. Children should be marked as belonging to the covenant, but unless they exercise saving faith, they will not grab hold of the covenant blessings.

Children today are baptized based on this same covenant with Abraham. Paul makes clear in Galatians 3 what Peter strongly suggests in Acts 2, namely that the Abrahamic covenant has not been annulled. It is still operational. In fact, we see the basic promise of the Abrahamic covenant running throughout the whole Bible, right up to the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21.

Because sons were part of the Abrahamic covenant in the Old Testament and were circumcised, we see no reason why children should be excluded in the New Testament sign of baptism. Admittedly, there is no text that says “Hear ye, hear ye, circumcision replaces baptism.” But we know from Colossians 2:11-12 that baptism and circumcision carried the same spiritual import. The transition from one to the other was probably organic. As the Jews practiced proselyte baptism, that sign came to be seen as marking inclusion in the covenant people. For awhile circumcision existed along baptism, but as the early church became more Gentile, many of Jewish rites were rendered unnecessary, and sometimes even detrimental to the faith. Thus, baptism eclipsed circumcision as the sign renewal, rebirth, and covenant membership.

Although not conclusive all by themselves, there are several other arguments that corroborate a paedobaptist reading of the New Testament.

One, the burden of proof rests on those who would deny children a sign they had received for thousands of years. If children were suddenly outside the covenant, and were disallowed from receiving any “sacramental” sign, surely such a massive change, and the controversy that would have ensued, would been recorded in the New Testament. Moreover, it would be strange for children to be excluded from the covenant, when everything else moves in the direction of more inclusion from the Old Covenant to the New.

Two, the existence of household baptisms is evidence that God still deals with households as a unit and welcomes whole families into the church to come under the Lordship of Christ together (Acts 16:13-15; 32-34; 1 Cor. 1:16; cf. Joshua 24:15).

Three, children are told to obey their parents in the Lord (Eph. 6:1). Children in the church are not treated as little pagans to be evangelized, but members of the covenant who owe their allegiance to Christ.

Four, within two centuries of the Apostles we have clear evidence that the church was practicing infant baptism. If this had been a change to long-standing tradition, we would have some record of the church arguing over this new practice. It wasn’t until the sixteenth century that Christians began to question the legitimacy of infant baptism.

See link for more
 

Hobie

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2009
2,553
980
113
South Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I understand.
Before the words of baptism, ( The in the name of the Father etc,) the pastor looks at the infant and says:

[Child’s name],
For you Jesus Christ came into the world:
For you he lived and showed God’s love;
For you he suffered the darkness of Calvary
And cried at the last, “It is accomplished”;
For you he triumphed over death
And rose in newness of life;
For you he ascended to reign at God’s right hand.
All this he did for you, [child’s name],
Though you do no not know it yet.
And so the word of Scripture is fulfilled:
“We love because God loved us first.”
Book of Common Order, Church of Scotland

Infant baptism​

Does infant baptism make the baby a Christian?
Technically, no. God’s grace is the saving action. Infant baptism is a witness to that grace, but does not hold magical powers to save. Thus, we do not believe that unbaptized infants are either doomed or saved. Salvation is the work of God.

Why is baptism done as part of a worship service?
The child’s parents and the congregation make promises to nurture the baptized child in the Christian faith.

Is anything expected of the child?
In promising to share with the child the good news of God’s grace in Jesus Christ, the parents and congregation hope that the child eventually will come to trust those claims and promises, and publicly profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

It is after this that there follows a 12 to 13 year learning period that I have written so many times here and elsewhere I am sure you know it

After, you received your first Holy Communion , (Another Sacrament in the Presbyterian church because it was commanded by Jesus.) And if you dont call it a sacrament...WEBSTER does

sacrament​

1a : a Christian rite (such as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality
(And we all know how you "all" regard baptism as Jesus commanded.....)
b: a religious rite or observance comparable to a Christian sacrament

The following article says thing in a more concise way then I can. If I run out of room, you can finish reading it here. A Brief Defense of Infant Baptism

A Brief Defense of Infant Baptism​

One of the best things I get to do as a pastor is to administer the sacrament of infant baptism to the covenant children in my congregation. Before each baptism, I take a few minutes to explain why we practice infant baptism in our church. My explanation always includes some–but rarely is there time for all–of the following:

It our great privilege this morning to administer that sacrament of baptism to one of our little infants. We do not believe that there is anything magical about the water we apply to the child. The water does not wash away original sin or save the child. We do not presume that this child is regenerate (though he may be), nor do we believe that every child who gets baptized will automatically go to heaven. We baptize infants not out of superstition or tradition or because we like cute babies. We baptize infants because they are covenant children and should receive the sign of the covenant.

In Genesis 15 God made a covenant with Abraham. This covenant was sealed with the sign of circumcision in Genesis 17. God promised to bless Abraham. For Abraham this meant two things in particular, offspring and land. But at the heart of the covenant was God’s promise that he would be a God to Abraham and his children (Gen. 17:7, 8).

Circumcision was not just a physical thing, marking out ethnic Jews. Circumcision was full of spiritual meaning. The circumcision of the flesh was always meant to correspond with circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:25-29). It pointed to humility, new birth, and a new way of life (Lev. 26:40-42; Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 6:10; 9:25). In short, circumcision was a sign of justification. Paul says in Romans 4:11 that Abraham “received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.” God’s own interpretation of circumcision is that it was much more than just a physical sign for national Israel.

Remarkably, though, this deeply spiritual sign was given to Ishmael as well as Isaac, even though only Isaac was the continuation of the promised line. The spiritual sign was not just for those who already embraced the spiritual reality. It was to be administered to Abraham and his sons. Circumcision was not a simple equation. It didn’t automatically mean the recipient of the sign was in possession of the thing signified. Circumcision, like baptism, also pointed to belonging, discipleship, covenant obligations, and allowed for future faith that would take hold of the realities symbolized. Just as there were some in Paul’s day who were circumcised but not really circumcised (Rom. 2:25-29), some children of Abraham who were not truly children of Abraham (Rom. 9:6-8), so in our day there are some who are baptized who are not truly baptized. Children should be marked as belonging to the covenant, but unless they exercise saving faith, they will not grab hold of the covenant blessings.

Children today are baptized based on this same covenant with Abraham. Paul makes clear in Galatians 3 what Peter strongly suggests in Acts 2, namely that the Abrahamic covenant has not been annulled. It is still operational. In fact, we see the basic promise of the Abrahamic covenant running throughout the whole Bible, right up to the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21.

Because sons were part of the Abrahamic covenant in the Old Testament and were circumcised, we see no reason why children should be excluded in the New Testament sign of baptism. Admittedly, there is no text that says “Hear ye, hear ye, circumcision replaces baptism.” But we know from Colossians 2:11-12 that baptism and circumcision carried the same spiritual import. The transition from one to the other was probably organic. As the Jews practiced proselyte baptism, that sign came to be seen as marking inclusion in the covenant people. For awhile circumcision existed along baptism, but as the early church became more Gentile, many of Jewish rites were rendered unnecessary, and sometimes even detrimental to the faith. Thus, baptism eclipsed circumcision as the sign renewal, rebirth, and covenant membership.

Although not conclusive all by themselves, there are several other arguments that corroborate a paedobaptist reading of the New Testament.

One, the burden of proof rests on those who would deny children a sign they had received for thousands of years. If children were suddenly outside the covenant, and were disallowed from receiving any “sacramental” sign, surely such a massive change, and the controversy that would have ensued, would been recorded in the New Testament. Moreover, it would be strange for children to be excluded from the covenant, when everything else moves in the direction of more inclusion from the Old Covenant to the New.

Two, the existence of household baptisms is evidence that God still deals with households as a unit and welcomes whole families into the church to come under the Lordship of Christ together (Acts 16:13-15; 32-34; 1 Cor. 1:16; cf. Joshua 24:15).

Three, children are told to obey their parents in the Lord (Eph. 6:1). Children in the church are not treated as little pagans to be evangelized, but members of the covenant who owe their allegiance to Christ.

Four, within two centuries of the Apostles we have clear evidence that the church was practicing infant baptism. If this had been a change to long-standing tradition, we would have some record of the church arguing over this new practice. It wasn’t until the sixteenth century that Christians began to question the legitimacy of infant baptism.

See link for more
Lots of confusion even for those who read their Bible to go through to understand the truth of the matter, Satan is the master of deception as we see.
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
3,561
1,446
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
we have clear evidence that the church was practicing infant baptism
laughing2.gif
The catholics may have been doing this... but nobody being led by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ... was dunking children and calling it being baptized.

The only people we see in scripture being baptized are adults AFTER they have become believers.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2023
1,503
830
113
76
SW PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Lots of confusion even for those who read their Bible to go through to understand the truth of the matter, Satan is the master of deception as we see.
Awe Hobie....

Give it a rest.

It has been years and years that people including you have come at me for having been unfortunate enough to be born into a family who thought they were doing the right thing by following the dictates of their church and having me baby baptised ( with others) .

I cannot change that. Just will be a very long parade of my church members and every other church that starts
an infant on the road to God by pouring water on that child.... on our road to perdition.

Anyway... since I am not a Sabbath observer you already consider that for me.

Maybe Ill meet up with Grams somewhere... You remember her?
 

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
928
317
63
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Lots of confusion even for those who read their Bible to go through to understand the truth of the matter, Satan is the master of deception as we see.
Bottom line, it's all man made up unscriptural nonsense. Babies can't believe, have not transgressed any law or committed sin, can't repent and have nothing to repent of, can't confess belief. Like I said, man made up unscriptural nonsense.
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
3,561
1,446
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bottom line, it's all man made up unscriptural nonsense. Babies can't believe, have not transgressed any law or committed sin, can't repent and have nothing to repent of, can't confess belief. Like I said, man made up unscriptural nonsense.
thanks.gif
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2023
1,503
830
113
76
SW PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bottom line, it's all man made up unscriptural nonsense. Babies can't believe, have not transgressed any law or committed sin, can't repent and have nothing to repent of, can't confess belief. Like I said, man made up unscriptural nonsense.
All because of self professed prophet demon Johnnie Calvin.

The sad thing is.... the infants get blamed when they grpow up... not the deceptive churches that fostered this
idea....

Thank God for Covid which allowed many to stop going to church and good for us who never went backtipping_hat_smiley.gif
 

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
928
317
63
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All because of self professed prophet demon Johnnie Calvin.

The sad thing is.... the infants get blamed when they grpow up... not the deceptive churches that fostered this
idea....

Thank God for Covid which allowed many to stop going to church and good for us who never went backView attachment 40572
Don't know exactly what you mean because the church is the body of Christ and it's important as well as scriptural for the body to assemble as the body, to worship Christ and have fellowship with the others. Maybe you really weren't part of the body, and the body you are referring to wasn't really the Lord's body to begin with. The scriptures teach that the body cane together each 1st day of the week to do so. The Hebrew letter also indicates it's negative to not do so. The body must come together to worship God and partake of the Lord's supper in remembrance of him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

Rella ~ I am a woman

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2023
1,503
830
113
76
SW PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Don't know exactly what you mean because the church is the body of Christ and it's important as well as scriptural for the body to assemble as the body, to worship Christ and have fellowship with the others. Maybe you really weren't part of the body, and the body you are referring to wasn't really the Lord's body to begin with. The scriptures teach that the body cane together each 1st day of the week to do so. The Hebrew letter also indicates it's negative to not do so. The body must come together to worship God and partake of the Lord's supper in remembrance of him.
I am talking about the brick and mortar buildings that people who call themselves walk through the front door most Sunday morning to sing praises to Jesus, and pray and be taught by a questionable person called a minister who will tell you that were called to do such... and which might have a steeple and at the front of the church for all to see is a baptismal font.



Church which is generally thought of as Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Mormon
and even Seventh Day Adventists which many do not regard as a church because you cannot go there on a Sunday. Lets us not forget the church of Christ and Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox.... and their varied splintered branches.

So I suggest you get out your pen and paper... if you are able to write... and find out which of the mentioned baptises babies and then write it out and if you message me I even send you however much postage you need so these people in these buildings under these false preacher might learn the truth.

Questioning someone's standing with God just shows yours are not as big as mine.

BTW.............

Here is another lie of yours

The scriptures teach that the body cane together each 1st day of the week to do so.

This is false.

@Hobie needs to take you to task over this.

I am done