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Does Jesus Really Take Away The Sins Of The World?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by jiggyfly, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. Paul

    Paul Member

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  2. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    [font="tahoma]Destruction of what? What kind of life?[/font][/color]
    [color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma]
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    [color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma]Did Jesus have any disciples that weren't Israelites?[/font]
     
  3. Radrook

    Radrook New Member

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    Jesus died for the sins of all those who are willing to avail themselves of his Ransom Sacrifice. He didn''t die for those who refuse to accept his free gift of salvation. He doesn't force salvation on those who reject it.
     
  4. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Hi Radrook. Quick quiz here. Which of the following are scriptural quotations, and which are not?

    a) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

    b)The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    c) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

    d) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe

    e) Jesus died for the sins of all those who are willing to avail themselves of His Ransom Sacrifice

    ( a-1Jn 2:2 , b-Jn 1:29, c-2C 5:19, d-1Ti 4:10, e-is not found in the Scriptures.)

    fivesense
     
  5. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Your pop quiz must of run Radrook off, Fivesense. Some people get a little nervous about being tested.
     
  6. Adstar

    Adstar New Member

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    Its about the doctrine of universalism. jiggyfly believes in universalism. That is the belief that everyone will be saved and no one will be cast into the lake of fire.

    Of course by using selective scriptures and using selective interpretation of them one can come up with many weird doctrines. This is the end times, so we should not be surprised.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  7. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Seems your knowledge of what Universal Reconciliation teaches is very limited and errant Adstar, maybe you should do some research before commenting.[​IMG]
     
  8. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Hebrews 10:28-31
    28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
    29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    NKJV

    Luke 13:22-27
    22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
    23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
    24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
    25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying,'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you,'I do not know you, where you are from,'
    26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
    27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
    NKJV

    I do not believe in the doctrines of Universalist.
     
  9. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    What exactly do you see here in the scriptures you quoted that are contrary to the teaching of universal reconciliation Richard?
     
  10. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    If you can't see it then there is nothing that I can say that will change your mind.

    According to universalists all will be saved. All those that were killed in the flood will be saved. All those that refuse God's grace in this age of God's grace will be saved. Those that refuse to place their faith in what God has done on the cross will be saved. If all will be saved then faith in God is not required is it? Sorry but my study of the scriptures do not support universalist theology.
     
  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    So then you must disagree with the following scriptures or at least interpret them in some other way than literal.


    Gen 12:3I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. All the families of the earth will be blessed through you."
    Isaiah 45:22&23 Let all the world look to me for salvation! For I am God; there is no other.I have sworn by my own name, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will confess allegiance to my name."
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Isaiah 61:11 The Sovereign LORD will show his justice to the nations of the world. Everyone will praise him! His righteousness will be like a garden in early spring, filled with young plants springing up everywhere.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Lamentations 3:31-33 For the Lord does not abandon anyone forever. Though he brings grief, he also shows compassion according to the greatness of his unfailing love. For he does not enjoy hurting people or causing them sorrow.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Mark 9:49 "For everyone will be purified with fire.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
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    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Luke 2:10 but the angel reassured them. "Don't be afraid!" he said. "I bring you good news of great joy for everyone![/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world![/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]John 3:16&17 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe because we have heard him ourselves, not just because of what you told us. He is indeed the Savior of the world."[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]John 12:32 And when I am lifted up on the cross, [fn] I will draw everyone to myself."[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]John 12:47 If anyone hears me and doesn't obey me, I am not his judge--for I have come to save the world and not to judge it.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Acts 3:21 For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his prophets.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Romans 5:18 Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this? "A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem, [fn] and he will turn Israel [fn]from all ungodliness.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]1 Cor. 15:25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]2 Cor 5:19 For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. This is the wonderful message he has given us to tell others.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Ephesians 1:10 And this is his plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Philippians 2:9-11 Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Philippians 3:21 He will take these weak mortal bodies of ours and change them into glorious bodies like his own, using the same mighty power that he will use to conquer everything, everywhere.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Colossians 1:19&20 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]1Tim 2:3&4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, for he wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]1Tim 4:10 We work hard and suffer much [fn] in order that people will believe the truth, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and particularly of those who believe.[/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]
    [/font]
    [font="'trebuchet ms"]Sorry I am getting tired so off to bed, if you want more scriptures just let me know.[​IMG]







    [/font]
     
  12. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    So you think you can pull verses out of context and in doing so prove your theology. Well that is what the people of religions always do. Some can prove their theology of baptismal regeneration that way. The RCC does the same thing. There is a very big problem in doing this. Theology never saves anyone.

    I meant what I said in my thread “My Personal Witness” on this forum. None of the theologies of men can save me or anyone else. Only faith in the work of Jesus on the cross can save.

    However, men/women of religion place their faith in their theology. You discounted the scriptures I gave that indicate NOT ALL will be saved and then expect me to take seriously what you see in all the scriptures you have taken out of context. Sounds like that would be playing cards with your stacked deck. LOL

    First I wish to say that what is written in this post is what I believe. I do not write it to refute, or criticize anyone. I give everyone the right to believe as they wish. I also take that right for myself. I offer this post as food for thought.

    My interpretation of 1 Cor. 15:20-28

    20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

    *** No one had been resurrected into new bodies that will not die until Christ. He is the firstfruit.

    21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

    *** Indeed, "All men shall be resurrected from the dead (made alive)." The use of the word "all" is inclusive and means all. In John 5:27-29 below we see again that “all” men will be resurrected.

    23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

    *** NOTE, NOTE; The statement "But each one in his own order" indicates that there is a set order (time) for each event. It is also important to notice the words "those who are Christ's at His coming." There is no mention of those who are not Christ's because they will not be resurrected at His coming. This is important and must not be overlooked. --- It should also be noted that between verse 23 and 24 there will be an earthly kingdom rule of Christ for a thousand years.

    24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
    26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
    27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
    28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
    (NKJ)

    *** During the 1000 year rule of Christ (verse 25) there will be people who are still in the flesh living on the earth and Christ will rule over them. These people can still die (their first death). It should be noticed that those who died ""without"" Christ have not been resurrected because it is not yet their time. At the end of Christ's rule on earth all the remaining dead will be resurrected and death of the flesh will be destroyed. But not the "Second Death." Flesh bodies will no longer exist. Only resurrected bodies that do not die will exist. In the statement "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death" THERE IS NO MENTION OF "THE SECOND DEATH." At this time there will be the "Great White Throne Judgment." All names that are NOT found written in the "Book of Life" will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is "THE SECOND DEATH." (see John 5:27-29 and Revelations 20:12-15 below). If death and the second death are the same death then why call it by another name?



    John 5:27-29 . (NIV)
    27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
    28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
    29 and come out-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

    Verse 29 Those who have done evil will rise from the first death of the flesh and then die the 'Second Death.'

    *** Although "ALL" will be resurrected not "all" will be saved. Some will die the "second death" mentioned in the scriptures. The second death is being in the lake of fire separated from God. But they will finally know that God exists and that they rejected Him. They will know it forever. As the scriptures say "all men will be drawn to Christ," some to be the children of God and some to be judged by Christ. It is written in John 3:18; "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jesus is the rightful judge. For those that say the word condemned does not mean that the person will not go to heaven let me give another reference; John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." The message is very clear 'shall not see life.'

    Rev 20:12-15
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
    (NKJ)

    This is how I see it. There is no way to get around having a personal relationship with Christ in your HEART so that he will be able to claim you as His own.

    In Christian love,
     
  13. Jonathan

    Jonathan New Member

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    everyone keeps quoting John 3:16 but leaves out verse 15.
    "That WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish, but have Eternal Life"
     
  14. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    OK so how is this against what UR teaches???
     
  15. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    You quote one thing that I wrote and want me to comment on it. How about the rest of what I wrote?

    IMHO those who experience the second death will not be in heaven.

    Your public broadcast is not a loving thing.
     
  16. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    RichardBurger, it is good to have a sense of humor, especially when on certain internet sites. Jiggyfly was just musing over the non-response to my quiz, which I spent no time in hoping for a reply. I do suppose it wasn't necessary. Really though, he made no slanderous remarks, sought not to marginalize or defame, called Radrook no derogatory names, did not imply mental defectiveness, maligned no one's character, and certainly did not assert that Radrook had a "twisted theology", a remark that sheds much light on the spirit which animates the proclaimer.

    Our personal opinions are of little value to us or to God. They have their source and outlet in our flesh, and they are destined for the judgment of fire. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. If he does not understand the impact of failing to ensure his humble and redeemed place before the Body and God, then it will become apparent afore long. Pointing people to the truth of God is all that Jesus Christ did, and it is all He has ever wanted to do. To resist those who would proclaim the truth of the Scriptures in favor of retaining "opinions", is to cut off from oneself the opportunity to grow in knowledge and wisdom and the realization of Who the Father is. It is easy to do, if not natural, to see our thoughts and ideas as being inspired. Our close relationship to the Father and Son is dunamis. But it is a mistake to cleave to notions we have when we are confronted with the clear declarations of God in His word, preferring to holdfast tradition and creedal mantra. Should God have desired us to have creeds, He would have supplied a few. But, He did not. His expectation of us is to believe His word, even if we do not understand it enough to form our own "opinion" about it.

    Question: If those who experience the lake of fire, which is the second death, do not see heaven, then, what does the Bible say is their fate? And, according to Scripture, why are they there to begin with?

    fivesense
     
  17. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    a) it is true that all the sins of the world are covered by the blood of Jesus on the cross.
    However, in this age of God's grace a person is not condemned because he/she commits a sin of the flesh. People are condemned because they do not believe God. They do not believe the work of Jesus on the cross pays for their sins. In other words John 3:15-18. In plain words, the only sin that condemns in this age of God’s grace is the sin of unbelief that Jesus’ blood takes away the sins of the world. If a person does not believe it they have no reconciliation.

    B), c), d), same answer as a)

    e) Not found.

    Revelation 19:20
    20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    NKJV

    Revelation 20:11-15
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
    NKJV

    I think the scriptures above are quite clear and any further fate of those cast into the lake of fire is not found in the scriptures. Since God does not give any further comment about them neither will I.
     
  18. Surf Rider

    Surf Rider New Member

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    WANTING everyone reconciled and HAVING everyone reconciled are two different things. Different words. Different meanings. To equate the two to be one and the same is foolish both linguistically and spiritually.

    Acknowledging that Jesus is Lord is NOT the same as professing Him as savior. Even the demons believe.... but have enough sense to tremble. Are they saved? NOT! Two totally different words with different meanings. If we equate the two to be one and the same, or interchange them as if they were, we are, may I say it, most stupid in our mother tongue and even more ignorant of spiritual basics.

    To carry on with the logic of the universalists, it was most, most stupid of God to then let Adam and Eve even sin! In fact, it was down rigfht retarded of Him to put in the tree, let alone allow the serpent to deceive them. And not only that, God was without any understanding whatsoever to even allow satan and his cohorts to sin, let alone let them sin and then create mankind and allow them to be led astray also -- didn't He learn anything from Satan in this regard?

    Universalism flies in the face of all the scriptures and any dictionary definitions of words. Try Hebrew, Greek, Chaldee, Syriac, English, etc..

    The mixing of dictionary definitions is done by those who have an errant belief, and yet persist in it contrary to the word of God. Just like Larry2 on Grace Centered, Jiggy, who holds that homosexuals are Christians, and that one can be a murderer, pedophile, liar, thief, etc., and partake of the glory of God.

    To continue to dialogue with someone who holds to contradictory definitions of words, and/or that insists on intermingling and interchanging words with different meanings, and/or ignoring very clear passages of scriptures, is to argue about words to the destruction of the hearers, and is also completely a waste of time. If you believe that CHAIR means HAT, and insist on interchanging them in the context of CHAIR, then indeed, to continue to talk about a chair or a hat is most stupid with that person who does this.

    Let us leave such to their own devices, for clearly they are not interested in anything but that which they prefer to believe, for it is right in their own eyes.

    Let's wake up and smell the coffee, and use our time more profitably than this. When one persists, and against even dictionary definitions and scripture definitions and statements and examples, we are absolutely no better than they to keep arguing with them about it all! Christ Himself told us what to do in this type of sceario. The apostles injuncted us also in this. Who among us thinks that we are above what God has told us to do in this regard? Are we wiser or mightier than He? Stand up and let us know who among us is! Let us not think more highly of ourselves than we aught to, and persist in the unprofitableness of the things of the flesh.
     
  19. fivesense

    fivesense New Member

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    Richard, if this understanding that you have, was clear in the minds of those who desire a response to the Gospel message, that it is unbelief alone that condemns and not sins of the flesh, then the door to conversation would open more freely. It is the false conclusion that sin condemns that turns the unsaved away, especially when connected to the "hell" of orthodoxy. Fixing the judgment for unbelief upon the work of Calvary is key to all of the Gospel of grace by which we are being saved.

    God does not see things the way we would suppose. Reconciliation takes place when two parties which were at enmity are in fellowship at last. The Greek word for reconciliation is apokatallaxai. This is the word that Holy Spirit used to convey the amity between two parties.

    Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile (apokatallaxai, to-reconcile) all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

    The above scripture speaks of what the plan of God is, and Who will be administering it. It also specifies the extent of its efficacy.

    2C 5:18-19 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled (conciliated) us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (conciliation); To wit, that God was in Christ, conciliating the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

    The translation "reconciled" of the Common Version is inaccurate, and the Greek word, katallasson, is best rendered conciliating. Conciliation is the act of placating and overcoming distrust and animosity, and that was performed at the Cross. It is universal, and all-encompassing in its effect. It is one-sided, just like all of God's agreements and covenants with men, who cannot keep a single one of them. God is not a man that He should lie, and He will perform the thing He promised. It is not dependent upon man to affect this conciliation, as it is based upon the willingness of the Offended party to seek unity. We were enemies when God put this into action, and He is at peace with all men everywhere, having made peace through the blood of the cross.

    Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    We were concilitated, no if's and' or but's about it. The peace is made and accomplished for all. And Christ Jesus will faithfully ensure its completion in earth and in heaven.

    Concerning the Chapter 20 of the Unveiling of Jesus Christ. There is no length of time specified for those who die in the lake of fire,

    Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    It states they "have their part" in the second death. Scripture does not attest to length of death. On this we are in agreement.

    However, Paul the Apostle does clearly instruct us about their fate and the Scriptures do attest to all being vivified, not just resurrected from death. Death and the grave are abolished through the Lord's reconciling activities. If death and the grave are abolished, where does that leave those who are dead? Annihilated, obliterated, scattered into so many little particles of atoms?

    1C 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

    Is it not possible that what proceeded out of God can be obliterated. What was created in God's image will obtain. The Creator is not weak, but powerful beyond comprehension.

    fivesense

    Very nice diatribe. Heartfelt and sincere I am sure. God has formed a foil, and the wise will employ it to their advantage. I enjoy your posts Surf Rider, keep up the fine work. There is a reward at the dais of Christ awaiting you.
    fivesense
     
  20. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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