Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God

[Matthias]

I look to what the Bible says. Not what people outside the Bible says.

The Bible says God (Plural) created the heavens and earth.

Then translate it plural.

The Bible says God (singular) created the heavens and the earth.

 

[Charlie24]

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

Sounds like a bunch of human reasoning to me! What is that worth? Add $3 to it and you can get a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

But what did Paul say?

Co. 1:16-20
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Look at the bold, Peterlag, and tell me that the Creator is not Jesus Christ, if you want to deny the Scripture!

Who did Paul say Christ is? And what is the Creator called in Scripture? Is it not God?

"For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

So tell me, if Christ is the Creator as Paul said, what does that make Him?

 

[theefaith]

Ex 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Only God may be worshipped!


Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then translate it plural.

The Bible says God (singular) created the heavens and the earth.

Thats not true. In Hebrew, God (in Gen 1) is plural

 

[Matthias]

Thats not true. In Hebrew, God (in Gen 1) is plural

In Hebrew, “God” is elohim. Which translation(s) do you use which render the Hebrew word plural in English? Please post a few for us.

***

While we wait.

Elohim is always plural in form.

Elohim may be plural in meaning or singular in meaning.

When elohim is used in reference to the one God, it is always singular in meaning; never plural in meaning.

P.S.

“1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

Theos (Gk., singular in form, singular in meaning) = elohim (Heb., plural in form, singular in meaning).

Theoi (Gk., plural in form, plural in meaning) = elohim (Heb., plural in form, plural in meaning).

Note: The one God is never referred to as theoi in scripture.

 

[Matthias]

Ex 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Only God may be worshipped!


Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

The only God who may be worshipped is the Messiah’s God. Everything else is idols.

Human beings may be, and are, worshipped. See, for example, 1 Chronicles 29:20.

 

[Matthias]

Thats not true. In Hebrew, God (in Gen 1) is plural

In post #85 I asked you to post English translations you use which render the Hebrew word plural in English. I think it’s reasonable for me to post English translations where the Hebrew word is rendered singular in English.

“In the beginning …” (Genesis 1:1)

Here’s a survey of 12: NASB, KJV, NKJV, NABRE, NIV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, HCSB, NET, CJB, ISV.

Genesis 1:1 - Bible Gateway

All render elohim as singular.

Bonus: A translation which maintains the Hebrew word.

“In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth.”

(NOG)

 

[Charlie24]

Ex 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Only God may be worshipped!


Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

A monumental moment in history where the Protestant and the Catholic agree!

 

[theefaith]

For those who believe no explanation is necessary/ for those who do not no explanation will suffice!

My God I believe, adore, hope and love thee!
I implore pardon for those who do not!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In Hebrew, “God” is elohim. Which translation(s) do you use which render the Hebrew word plural in English? Please post a few for us.

***

While we wait.

Elohim is always plural in form.

Elohim may be plural in meaning or singular in meaning.

When elohim is used in reference to the one God, it is always singular in meaning; never plural in meaning.

P.S.

“1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

Theos (Gk., singular in form, singular in meaning) = elohim (Heb., plural in form, singular in meaning).

Theoi (Gk., plural in form, plural in meaning) = elohim (Heb., plural in form, plural in meaning).

Note: The one God is never referred to as theoi in scripture.

do you ever study the word and make your belief fit the word. or do you interpret the word to fit your belief.

Gen 1: 1 - In the beginning God (Elohim - noun, common, masculine, plural, absolute)

Gen 1: 26 - Then God (Elohim - noun, common, masculine, plural, absolute) said "let us make (Naaseh - Verb, Qal, Yiqtol (imperfect) first person, plural) man in our (enu - pronoun, suffixed, first person, plural) image, according to our likeness(enu - pronoun, suffixed, first person, plural)

Far to many plural words and suffixes used to just try to deny what is being said.. You have to change the meanings of the word.

 

[Matthias]

do you ever study the word and make your belief fit the word. or do you interpret the word to fit your belief.

Gen 1: 1 - In the beginning God (Elohim - noun, common, masculine, plural, absolute)

Gen 1: 26 - Then God (Elohim - noun, common, masculine, plural, absolute) said "let us make (Naaseh - Verb, Qal, Yiqtol (imperfect) first person, plural) man in our (enu - pronoun, suffixed, first person, plural) image, according to our likeness(enu - pronoun, suffixed, first person, plural)

Far to many plural words and suffixes used to just try to deny what is being said.. You have to change the meanings of the word.

Singular - God.

Plural - gods.

You didn’t post an English translation that rendered it plural, and for good reason - there aren’t any.

 

[theefaith]

Ex 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Only God may be worshipped!


Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.


Matt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Either Jesus is God or a blasphemer and false prophet for allowing himself to be worshipped!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In post #85 I asked you to post English translations you use which render the Hebrew word plural in English. I think it’s reasonable for me to post English translations where the Hebrew word is rendered singular in English.

“In the beginning …” (Genesis 1:1)

Here’s a survey of 12: NASB, KJV, NKJV, NABRE, NIV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, HCSB, NET, CJB, ISV.

Genesis 1:1 - Bible Gateway

All render elohim as singular.

Bonus: A translation which maintains the Hebrew word.

“In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth.”

(NOG)

once again, three persons, one God

I realise it is hard to comprehend. But if you sit and think, it comes to light

Trinity is found in the OT. the Son (lord God of Israel) was sent by the father and his spirit, He is the creator who liad the foundation of the earth and holds them together


Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Singular - God.

Plural - gods.

You didn’t post an English translation that rendered it plural, and for good reason - there aren’t any.

I have told you multiple times now

three persons (Let US make man in OUR image)

one God

And God (united as 1) said, Let US make man in OUR IMAGE (plural)

its not rocket science

 

[Matthias]

I have told you multiple times now

three persons (Let US make man in OUR image)

one God

And God (united as 1) said, Let US make man in OUR IMAGE (plural)

its not rocket science

Gods. Plural.

God. Singular.

It’s English.

 

[theefaith]

The only God who may be worshipped is the Messiah’s God. Everything else is idols.

Human beings may be, and are, worshipped. See, for example, 1 Chronicles 29:20.

not as God the 1st commandment forbids it!

Is Jesus divine God or a blasphemer and false prophet?

 

[Matthias]

not as God the 1st commandment forbids it!

The people worshipped God and the king.

Is Jesus divine God or a blasphemer and false prophet?

No.

 

[theefaith]

The only God who may be worshipped is the Messiah’s God. Everything else is idols.

Human beings may be, and are, worshipped. See, for example, 1 Chronicles 29:20.

this king refers to God not David!

 

[Matthias]

this king refers to God not David!

“And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.”

(KJV)

 

[theefaith]

A monumental moment in history where the Protestant and the Catholic agree!

Alleluia!