Does Satan run the world? Or does God?

[MatthewG]

@3 Resurrections no unbeliever seen Jesus come back. Just believers. Unbelievers were not looking for him. Sure there documented about battles in the sky were seen but still only faithful believers in that day seen him.


Those who pierced him could have been those who had repented for the wrong they did.

The reason for no documentary is there was no one left to write about it. Those who were prisoners may have told stories of what happened but they were unbelievers.

 

[MatthewG]

I will not argue this with you.

But where is Jesus' return recorded? In some obscure Jewish writing in someone's ossuary?

I agree all happened except the return.

it’s by faith we believe he did as promised with no proofs other than what’s laid out in history.
It’s a choice….

Either Jesus came or he did not. And if he did theee is no chance for a great tribulation today., or great white throne judgement, that has to be worried about. Jesus had his victory over all things. Sin, death, hell, Satan

 

[MatthewG]

Does that mean there is no hope?


…

There is always hope of God helping us here and hopefully go be with him after here.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I disagree, @Ronald Nolette. Not all of Israel is Israel.

I disagree with the manmade traditions handed around.

”I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; And her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; There shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: for he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: And whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭1‬-‭33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Romans 9:1-33 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed | King James Version (KJV) | Downlo

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed

bible.com

YOu cite a passage that shows all decescendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Israelites!

But another:

Romans 11

King James Version

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Israel is Israel and teh church is teh church.

One day in the future all of natural Israel will be saved that are alive.

 

[MatthewG]

YOu cite a passage that shows all decescendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Israelites!

But another:

Romans 11​

​

King James Version​

​

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Israel is Israel and teh church is teh church.

One day in the future all of natural Israel will be saved that are alive.

You missed where all Israel is not Israel…. People think Israel is a big thing today. They aren’t… they don’t have the twelve tribes….

The Heavenly Israel does though….

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

 

[MatthewG]

People look for Israel to be saved, but the only Israel that was was Israel where faithful believers who did not turn from God whom hopped for home which was and is Heavenly Jerusalem. @Ronald Nolette did you know that?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Those who pierced him could have been those who had repented for the wrong they did.

Oh, of course, I have no doubt that many of those inside Jerusalem who saw Christ's bodily return in AD 70 repented for the wrong they had done. That would have been the reason for the great weeping, as if for the death of an only son, that Zechariah 12:11 said the tribes of Israel would be doing. The "spirit of grace and supplication" would have applied to these who genuinely repented.

@3 Resurrections no unbeliever seen Jesus come back. Just believers. Unbelievers were not looking for him. Sure there documented about battles in the sky were seen but still only faithful believers in that day seen him.

Christ had once said in Luke 13:25-30 that when He returned, that there would be those weeping and gnashing their teeth at being left outside the "door" (of being resurrected and taken to heaven with Him). "Lord, lord, open to us", they would beg. Christ would respond by saying, "I know you not whence ye are". In protest, they would then say, "we have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets". (Only first-century Israelites who had personally experienced Christ's earthly ministry could say this.)

Christ would respond to this protest by saying, "I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity". This was unbelievers witnessing Christ's return to the Mount of Olives. They could not imagine why they would not be participating in the resurrection, since they had been His fellow Israelites who recognized Him as the one who had been among them during His earthly ministry. Their presumption was that the natural Israelite blood they shared with Christ was their ticket into the kingdom of heaven.

The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" was because they saw all the prophets, patriarchs, and the resurrected saints coming from every point of the compass entering the kingdom of God, with themselves left behind on earth to die later on inside the besieged city of Jerusalem.

 

[MatthewG]

Oh, of course, I have no doubt that many of those inside Jerusalem who saw Christ's bodily return in AD 70 repented for the wrong they had done. That would have been the reason for the great weeping, as if for the death of an only son, that Zechariah 12:11 said the tribes of Israel would be doing.


Christ had once said in Luke 13:25-30 that when He returned, that there would be those weeping and gnashing their teeth at being left outside the "door" (of being resurrected and taken to heaven with Him). "Lord, lord, open to us", they would beg. Christ would respond by saying, "I know you not whence ye are". In protest, they would then say, "we have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets". (Only first-century Israelites who had personally experienced Christ's earthly ministry could say this.)

Christ would respond to this protest by saying, "I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity". This was unbelievers witnessing Christ's return to the Mount of Olives. They could not imagine why they would not be participating in the resurrection, since they had been His fellow Israelites who recognized Him as the one who had been among them during His earthly ministry.

The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" was because they saw all the prophets, patriarchs, and the resurrected saints coming from every point of the compass entering the kingdom of God, with themselves left behind on earth to die later on inside the besieged city of Jerusalem.

Sorry none of that makes sense to me.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Sorry none of that makes sense to me.

Some of the ethnic Israelites in the besieged city of Jerusalem repented when seeing Christ's AD 70 bodily return to the Mount of Olives. Some didn't repent. But they were all in great mourning because they missed participating in the bodily resurrection and transport to heaven of the resurrected saints on that day.

 

[MatthewG]

Some of the ethnic Israelites in the besieged city of Jerusalem seeing Christ's AD 70 bodily return to the Mount of Olives repented. Some didn't. But they were all in great mourning because they missed participating in the bodily resurrection and transport to heaven of the resurrected saints on that day.

Still not making sense to me. I don’t claim to know everything on the matters. Just by faith that those who were told to wait and watch would have seen Christ come, taken out and the wrath of God continued to destroy all of the nation of Israel.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Oh, of course, I have no doubt that many of those inside Jerusalem who saw Christ's bodily return in AD 70 repented for the wrong they had done. That would have been the reason for the great weeping, as if for the death of an only son, that Zechariah 12:11 said the tribes of Israel would be doing. The "spirit of grace and supplication" would have applied to these who genuinely repented.


Christ had once said in Luke 13:25-30 that when He returned, that there would be those weeping and gnashing their teeth at being left outside the "door" (of being resurrected and taken to heaven with Him). "Lord, lord, open to us", they would beg. Christ would respond by saying, "I know you not whence ye are". In protest, they would then say, "we have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets". (Only first-century Israelites who had personally experienced Christ's earthly ministry could say this.)

Christ would respond to this protest by saying, "I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity". This was unbelievers witnessing Christ's return to the Mount of Olives. They could not imagine why they would not be participating in the resurrection, since they had been His fellow Israelites who recognized Him as the one who had been among them during His earthly ministry. Their presumption was that the natural Israelite blood they shared with Christ was their ticket into the kingdom of heaven.

The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" was because they saw all the prophets, patriarchs, and the resurrected saints coming from every point of the compass entering the kingdom of God, with themselves left behind on earth to die later on inside the besieged city of Jerusalem.

Ah, witnesses.... taking a vowel of silence, maybe?

 

[MatthewG]

Ah, witnesses.... taking a vowel of silence, maybe?

Not sure dead witnesses are any witness at all, due to death, ensured by Gods wrath for having killed the Son of God. My take is all the tribes of Israel, some were taken while all the rest were killed off. There was some prisoners but who knows exactly who they were or where from or that they were pure blooded Jews. I believe there is no pure blooded Jew of the those tribes cause the genealogy was burned up. No one can properly identify themselves to claim to be….

There is a lot of things going on over there for Israel now, you see them ask for money on advertisements and stuff and they desire to make a third temple and on and on….

But I think and believe nation of Israel was destroyed, and all that readies is the heavenly Jerusalem. And I love people who believe they are Jewish and hold on to traditions, they may have. I don’t think it’s good to go busting down doors and putting guns in people’s faces just cause they do things differently than ourselves, or believing differently.

It’s the death burial and resurrection, which we relate to new life in Christ! Amen.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Ah, witnesses.... taking a vowel of silence, maybe?

No, it was eye-witnesses in besieged Jerusalem, most of whom died in the city in the weeks immediately after seeing that AD 70 Pentecost day return of Christ. The few 97,000 or so in Jerusalem who survived to the end of AD 70 were made prisoner and scattered among the nations of the Roman empire afterward as slaves, That is, if they didn't wind up dying in a Roman arena as a spectacle to entertain the victorious Romans.

Still not making sense to me. I don’t claim to know everything on the matters. Just by faith that those who were told to wait and watch would have seen Christ come, taken out and the wrath of God continued to destroy all of the nation of Israel.

The "waiting" and "watching" was intended for one purpose only for the living believers. Once they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, if they were in Judea or Jerusalem, they were to flee to the mountains to avoid the "days of vengeance" that would take place in Judea and Jerusalem. Once they saw those armies around Jerusalem, no one was to enter the city for any reason, or they would end up trapped inside the besieged city until AD 70.

If persecution came to overtake the believers in those days, they were to remain faithful unto death, with the promised reward of the "crown of life" they would receive in a bodily resurrection in AD 70. Those who sought to save their physical life under persecution by denying Christ might have still lived, but they lost the opportunity to participate in that coming bodily resurrection to eternal life in AD 70. Those who lost their life for Christ's sake in those first-century days would find it again in the bodily resurrection event to come at Christ's return in AD 70.

 

[MatthewG]

No, it was eye-witnesses in besieged Jerusalem, most of whom died in the city in the weeks immediately after seeing that AD 70 Pentecost day return of Christ. The few 97,000 or so in Jerusalem who survived to the end of AD 70 were made prisoner and scattered among the nations of the Roman empire afterward, That is, if they didn't wind up dying in a Roman arena as a spectacle to entertain the victorious Romans.

The "waiting" and "watching" was intended for one purpose only for the living believers. Once they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, if they were in Judea or Jerusalem, they were to flee to the mountains to avoid the "days of vengeance" that would take place in Judea and Jerusalem. Once they saw those armies around Jerusalem, no one was to enter the city for any reason, or they would end up trapped inside the besieged city until AD 70.

If persecution came to overtake the believers in those days, they were to remain faithful unto death, with the promised reward of the "crown of life" they would receive in a bodily resurrection in AD 70. Those who sought to save their physical life under persecution by denying Christ might have still lived, but they lost the opportunity to participate in that coming bodily resurrection to eternal life in AD 70. Those who lost their life for Christ's sake in those first-century days would find it again in the bodily resurrection event to come at Christ's return in AD 70.

How do you summarize Jesus came with all this knowledge how do you explain it cause I’m curious myself?

Some of the things you mention I just have to go and restudy about.

I do believe that Jesus came, but only believers seen him and taken away. I don’t believe unbelievers ever seen Jesus cause they were never looking.

Sorry for repeating the same things… you seem like you have study some of these things for awhile.

 

[MatthewG]

We may just have different views all together. It’s all fine and good. It’s just healthy to communicate with one another.

Today some suggest that Satan is in charge of the world. Today some believe Satan has been gotten rid of. God has always owned everything, he did give a portion of land to Israel. Those people became evil, and killed the son of God. They became Satan to Jesus. Adversary. Not todays modern Israel; but Gods chosen nation which was destroyed in 70Ad.


Whatever you believe most certainly it will effect you everyday walk to some degree or another.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I do believe that Jesus came, but only believers seen him and taken away. I don’t believe unbelievers ever seen Jesus cause they were never looking.

Nobody except the RESURRECTED saints were taken away with Christ back to heaven at His bodily return on AD 70's Pentecost day. Those believers who had never died yet before that point stayed on earth to keep building the kingdom of God. That was the whole reason why Christ warned His disciples to flee from Judea and Jerusalem and run for the mountains when he city was first surrounded by armies in Ad 66. He wanted them to survive the war and keep evangelizing the nations afterward.

There is no such thing as a believer leaving this earth for heaven without passing through physical death first. No translation change for the living is ever promised to believers. ALL have an appointment to die the one time (Heb. 9:27) before their dead bodies are changed to the incorruptible in a resurrection process.

You're right that the unbelievers weren't looking to see Jesus return in AD 70. In their experience, He came unexpectedly like a thief. But unexpected or not, those in Jerusalem at that time really did see Christ's bodily return, just as prophesied in Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1:7.

Of course, every resurrected eye of the saints also saw Christ when He bodily returned back then. That's what Job said He would be waiting for, when God would call to him in the grave, and Job's dead body would be changed to "live again" and see his redeemer with his own eyes, and not another's (Job 14:13-15 and 19:25-27).

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

You have a misunderstanding of who the "rapture" was supposed to include. Because of this misunderstanding, you think that an AD 70 "rapture" with a returning Christ would have removed both the living believers and the dead saints from this world, leaving it without any Christian witness at all. It didn't do that.

The "rapture" passage in 1 Thess. 4 was Paul's attempt to comfort and reassure the saints who had been mistakenly thinking that the resurrection was past already. They thought their own beloved dead family members in Christ had missed the resurrection entirely. You do remember, I'm sure, the false doctrine being taught in those days by Hymenaeus and Philetus, who were saying that the resurrection was already past at that point. Just how do you think these two men got that idea in the first place?

This error in doctrine arose in those days because of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints. This group of Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints was the "First-fruits" numbering 144,000 Jewish tribal members raised from the dead around Jerusalem on the same day that "Christ the First-fruits" rose from the dead. These saints who had been made alive again remained on the earth to help with pastoring, teaching, and evangelizing in the early church. Hymenaeus and Philetus either met or had heard of these resurrected individuals, and were basing their wrong doctrine on that fact. Their mistaken impression was that these Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints represented a one-and-only resurrection event for all time. It wasn't. It was only the first of three bodily resurrection events.

Those "alive" saints who "remained" on the earth after their resurrection were the ones Paul referred to in 1 Thess 4:15 and 17, who would not ascend to heaven in the rapture until the rest of the resurrected dead were caught up in the skies with the returning Christ (in AD 70). THEN those resurrected saints who had been made alive again but who had remained on earth would also be caught up together with the others in the clouds, to meet the Lord together in the air, returning to heaven with Him. These "alive" and "remaining" saints included the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints, Lazarus, Dorcas who Peter presented "alive" to her friends, the widow's son, Jairus's daughter, and any others who had been bodily raised to life again by the disciples or Christ in those days.

The living believers who had never died yet were not to be included in the AD 70 rapture. Nobody gets off this planet without passing through the required one-time-only appointment with death that all men are to experience. This Hebrews 9:27 requirement that all are appointed to die the one time applies to one and all of us. There is no promise in scripture for a translation type of change for the bodies of living believers. The only promise is a change into the incorruptible and immortal for the physical bodies of the DEAD believers.

Let me ask you a question, Lambano. Why would Christ have warned the believers in Luke 21:20-21 to physically flee Judea and Jerusalem when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, just prior to the "days of vengeance", which culminated in His bodily return? What difference would it have made where they were living on this planet when He returned, if He was going to remove all the living believers from this planet? They might as well have just stayed put in Judea and Jerusalem if Christ was going to return to Jerusalem's Mount of Olives and remove them from the planet at that time.

Christ wanted the first-century believers to flee Judea and Jerusalem so they could be in a safe location to wait out the war. They were going to survive the "days of vengeance" as well as Christ's AD 70 bodily return. God intended His church of "living stones" to continue to multiply and build up the New Jerusalem after He had taken all the resurrected saints back to heaven with Him in AD 70.

You and I are waiting for the final bodily resurrection event in our future. The believers are to continue the Great Commission with the purpose of Christ's "rock" kingdom steadily increasing until it fills the whole world with its influence, as promised.

A little backtracking here. .. and not to argue or debate, just looking for ideas.

I understand what you are saying in your reply but.......
You say "Nobody gets off this planet without passing through the required one-time-only appointment with death that all men are to experience. This Hebrews 9:27 requirement that all are appointed to die the one time applies to one and all of us. "

Then how does that square with 1 Thes 4:17

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Thes has been dated in a study found here When Was 1 Thessalonians Written? A Historical Analysis

Ascertaining the precise date of 1 Thessalonians’ composition remains an ongoing task for scholars and theologians, due to factors including historical context, internal evidence, scholarly frameworks, etc. These details reveal some of the many difficulties involved with dating early Christian texts; with its status as one of the foundational New Testament books (ie 1 Thessalonians), dating its creation holds great implications in understanding early Christianity development.

Therefore Scholars believe it to have been written between AD 50 and 51

A good 20 years before AD70.... and a long time ago from today.

Jesus said, and is used for confirmation of the AD 70 claims...

30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

It certainly is no wonder of all the confusion. If only the dead in Christ were gathered AD70... it was so secretive that no one knew... ergo... no one wrote of it. And more confusion to me is that as you explained that AD 70 gathering ..."The living believers who had never died yet were not to be included in the AD 70 rapture."

Why would Jesus confuse things by THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect???? leaving everyone to believe it would be all???

 

[3 Resurrections]

Why would Jesus confuse things by THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect???? leaving everyone to believe it would be all???

Rella, I'm sure you remember the "elect" which were said to be crying day and night for vengeance for their shed blood. Christ said in Luke 18:7-8 that God would avenge his elect "speedily", which happened in that first-century generation before it had passed. That was the "days of vengeance" when God avenged His own elect. The gathered "elect" in AD 70 were all those from Creation forward who had died in faith. They were scattered over every point of the compass, but were gathered together to meet Christ in the air as He left the Mount of Olives.

I understand what you are saying in your reply but.......
You say "Nobody gets off this planet without passing through the required one-time-only appointment with death that all men are to experience. This Hebrews 9:27 requirement that all are appointed to die the one time applies to one and all of us. "

Then how does that square with 1 Thes 4:17

The "alive" saints who had "remained" in 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 were the saints who had already been made alive by the resurrection process, but who had "remained" on the earth until then. You will remember Dorcas, raised to life again by Peter who presented her "alive" to her friends in Acts 9:41. All of those resurrected over time before AD 70 joined the rest of the newly-resurrected saints by meeting the Lord together in the air and returning to heaven with Him in AD 70.

This reconciles with the required one-time appointment with death for all men found in Hebrews 9:27. The scriptures do not contradict each other. There is no translation-type change promised for living believers. All must physically die the one time, whether a believer or not. Only then can the bodies of the saints be changed to the incorruptible and immortal in a resurrection process, as 1 Cor. 15 stipulates.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You missed where all Israel is not Israel…. People think Israel is a big thing today. They aren’t… they don’t have the twelve tribes….

The Heavenly Israel does though….

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Your first line is a huge assumption. God knows who is an Israeli- Heavenly Israel is all Jews saved. Not Gentiles.

And the verses prove my point- verse 6 not all physaical Jews are spiritual Jews.

Verse 7 refers to Abraham not Israel.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

People look for Israel to be saved, but the only Israel that was was Israel where faithful believers who did not turn from God whom hopped for home which was and is Heavenly Jerusalem. @Ronald Nolette did you know that?

The bible says you are wrong!

REad Romans 11:

Romans 11

King James Version

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul said all Israel will be saved! And he is not referring to the church but the physical descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Matter of fact the basis of Jesus returning is Israel as a nation confessing their rejection of HIm as Messiah and saying- Blessed is He....

Hosea 5:15
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Zechariah 13:8-9

King James Version

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8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version

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31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezekiel 20:33-38

King James Version

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33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Matthew 23:37-39

King James Version

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37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Gods INpsired Word makes it explicitly clear He is not done yet with the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob aka Israel.