Does Satan run the world? Or does God?

[MatthewG]

May everyone continue to look and seek out in faith God your Father and go to your God for answers. May those who need to be encouraged to read the Bible more often, may you be encouraged to do so. May God he with everyone and shine a light for those in darkness and be delivered from the bondage of traditions or manmade doctrines, or even things I say that are wrong. May we all be encouraged to seek, and search for answers that lead us to have freedom and liberty in Christ!

 

[Lambano]

I'm not certain why you would think the origins and legitimacy of the historical church post-AD 70 would be in question, if Christ bodily returned in that first-century generation as He promised.

You're saying that Christ came back for His church in 70 AD and took the rock away to Heaven. So, the Church as we know it must have descended from those "Left Behind", those not He did not consider His own. (Hmm that WOULD explain a lot.) Who brought them to faith? Who taught them? What were they taught? Where did they get Bibles?

 

[MatthewG]

You're saying that Christ came back for His church in 70 AD and took the rock away to Heaven. So, the Church as we know it must have descended from those "Left Behind", those not He did not consider His own. (Hmm that WOULD explain a lot.) Who brought them to faith? Who taught them? What were they taught? Where did they get Bibles?

Church continued because people liked to play church. “Material Church has no bases” on God who can write on the hearts and minds of those are his. Can people show up and learn what’s taught at a church? Sure… it has no merit on the church bride of that day… which was pure, spotless, even blameless believers which made up that church which was governed by Apostles… there are no more living apostles, @Lambano. I believe people can go to any church they want to, but the church bride that was taken resides in Heaven when it was taken…

Can more fruits come afterward? @Lambano?


Many people don’t like that Material Church doesn’t matter as much today… cause sometimes people lie to you and rip you off desiring your money and your time… feeling some of that time with bands playing, with little of the Bible even given to congregations. For many pastors who get a certain amount of money need that money to keep going, etc… etc… there isn’t a church like those on earth governed by the apostles in that day.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You're saying that Christ came back for His church in 70 AD and took the rock away to Heaven. So, the Church as we know it must have descended from those "Left Behind", those not He did not consider His own. (Hmm that WOULD explain a lot.) Who brought them to faith? Who taught them? What were they taught? Where did they get Bibles?

You have a misunderstanding of who the "rapture" was supposed to include. Because of this misunderstanding, you think that an AD 70 "rapture" with a returning Christ would have removed both the living believers and the dead saints from this world, leaving it without any Christian witness at all. It didn't do that.

The "rapture" passage in 1 Thess. 4 was Paul's attempt to comfort and reassure the saints who had been mistakenly thinking that the resurrection was past already. They thought their own beloved dead family members in Christ had missed the resurrection entirely. You do remember, I'm sure, the false doctrine being taught in those days by Hymenaeus and Philetus, who were saying that the resurrection was already past at that point. Just how do you think these two men got that idea in the first place?

This error in doctrine arose in those days because of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints. This group of Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints was the "First-fruits" numbering 144,000 Jewish tribal members raised from the dead around Jerusalem on the same day that "Christ the First-fruits" rose from the dead. These saints who had been made alive again remained on the earth to help with pastoring, teaching, and evangelizing in the early church. Hymenaeus and Philetus either met or had heard of these resurrected individuals, and were basing their wrong doctrine on that fact. Their mistaken impression was that these Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints represented a one-and-only resurrection event for all time. It wasn't. It was only the first of three bodily resurrection events.

Those "alive" saints who "remained" on the earth after their resurrection were the ones Paul referred to in 1 Thess 4:15 and 17, who would not ascend to heaven in the rapture until the rest of the resurrected dead were caught up in the skies with the returning Christ (in AD 70). THEN those resurrected saints who had been made alive again but who had remained on earth would also be caught up together with the others in the clouds, to meet the Lord together in the air, returning to heaven with Him. These "alive" and "remaining" saints included the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints, Lazarus, Dorcas who Peter presented "alive" to her friends, the widow's son, Jairus's daughter, and any others who had been bodily raised to life again by the disciples or Christ in those days.

The living believers who had never died yet were not to be included in the AD 70 rapture. Nobody gets off this planet without passing through the required one-time-only appointment with death that all men are to experience. This Hebrews 9:27 requirement that all are appointed to die the one time applies to one and all of us. There is no promise in scripture for a translation type of change for the bodies of living believers. The only promise is a change into the incorruptible and immortal for the physical bodies of the DEAD believers.

Let me ask you a question, Lambano. Why would Christ have warned the believers in Luke 21:20-21 to physically flee Judea and Jerusalem when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, just prior to the "days of vengeance", which culminated in His bodily return? What difference would it have made where they were living on this planet when He returned, if He was going to remove all the living believers from this planet? They might as well have just stayed put in Judea and Jerusalem if Christ was going to return to Jerusalem's Mount of Olives and remove them from the planet at that time.

Christ wanted the first-century believers to flee Judea and Jerusalem so they could be in a safe location to wait out the war. They were going to survive the "days of vengeance" as well as Christ's AD 70 bodily return. God intended His church of "living stones" to continue to multiply and build up the New Jerusalem after He had taken all the resurrected saints back to heaven with Him in AD 70.

You and I are waiting for the final bodily resurrection event in our future. The believers are to continue the Great Commission with the purpose of Christ's "rock" kingdom steadily increasing until it fills the whole world with its influence, as promised.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

You're saying that Christ came back for His church in 70 AD and took the rock away to Heaven. So, the Church as we know it must have descended from those "Left Behind", those not He did not consider His own. (Hmm that WOULD explain a lot.) Who brought them to faith? Who taught them? What were they taught? Where did they get Bibles?

Good questions.

If, which I do not believe, that actually happened it WOULD explain a lot as men, left to their own devices
tend to muck things up. (So do women)... but also consider that IF Jesus simply took those "sheep" (God's originally chosen) as he kind of described them in Mathew 15:24I suppose a case could be made that they being god's first chosen.. then a return to them first would be appropriate.

NO... I dont believe this... just musing.

Some of your questions could have a reasonable answer if there were any witnesses to what had happened.

I keep going back to Josephus who was alive at the time

A good read on some of his views.

Josephus on Christianity

Titus Flavius Josephus (36-100 CE), the Jewish historian, is the main source for understanding Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE. In the last decades of the 1st century CE, he wrote The Jewish...

www.worldhistory.org

Josephus on Christianity​

Titus Flavius Josephus (36-100 CE), the Jewish historian, is the main source for understanding Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE. In the last decades of the 1st century CE, he wrote The Jewish War, the Antiquities of the Jews, Against Apion, and The Life of Flavius Josephus. His histories and eyewitness testimonies remain essential to the study of the historical context that gave rise to the origins of Christianity.

Josephus​

Flavius Josephus was born Yosef ben Matityahu, a member of a priestly household in Jerusalem through his father’s side (the house and order of Jehoiarib), and his mother was of royal descent (Hasmonean). He was educated in Jerusalem and most likely shared ideology and sympathy with the party of the Pharisees.

CONSIDERED ONE OF THE GREATEST TRAITORS BY JEWS, CHRISTIANS WERE THE ONES WHO PRESERVED JOSEPHUS' WRITINGS FOR POSTERITY.
During the Great Jewish Revolt of 66 CE, Josephus was appointed the commander of Galilee. He became famous (and infamous) for changing sides during the siege at Jotapata. He successfully predicted that the Roman commander, Vespasian (r. 69-79 CE), would become the next Roman emperor. Vespasian spared his life, and Josephus spent the rest of the war as a consultant to Vespasian’s son Titus (r. 79-81 CE), who ultimately destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple complex in the year 70 CE. After the war, Josephus moved to Rome where he had access to archives and wrote his histories.

The writings of Josephus are crucially important for several disciplines: Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE, background sources for early Christianity, historical details of the client kings of the Roman Empire in the East, and the line of the Julio-Claudian emperors in Rome. Considered one of the greatest traitors by Jews, Christians were the ones who preserved his writings for posterity. This is because he wrote about John the Baptist, reported the death of Jesus’ brother, James, and provided a passage on Jesus himself.

Herod Antipas​

A son of Herod the Great (c. 75-4 BCE), Herod Antipas (r. 4 BCE - 39 CE) inherited the region of Galilee (as one of the tetrarchs, the sons of Herod the Great). Josephus described his reign and activities in detail in Antiquities. Antipas was married to the daughter of King Aretas of Petra (the Kingdom of Nabatea in Jordan). However, when meeting the wife of another half-brother, Herodias, he divorced the daughter of Aretas and married her. Aretas then went to war against Herod Antipas who was defeated. In a digression, Josephus added the following:

Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God and was a very just punishment for what he did against John called the baptist [the dipper]. For Herod had him killed, although he was a good man and had urged the Jews to exert themselves to virtue, both as to justice toward one another and reverence towards God and having done so join together in washing. For immersion in water, it was clear to him, could not be used for the forgiveness of sins, but as a sanctification of the body, and only if the soul was already thoroughly purified by right actions. And when others massed about him, for they were very greatly moved by his words, Herod, who feared that such strong influence over the people might carry to a revolt - for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise - believed it much better to move now than later have it raise a rebellion and engage him in actions he would regret. And so John, out of Herod's suspiciousness, was sent in chains to Machaerus, the fort previously mentioned, and there put to death; but it was the opinion of the Jews that out of retribution for John God willed the destruction of the army so as to afflict Herod. (Antiquities 18.5.2)

As a client king of Rome, Herod Antipas had a duty to keep law and order in his province. In this period, various messianic contenders riled up the mobs with anti-Roman speeches. Herod Antipas was afraid that the followers of John in their zealousness would rebel. He would be blamed by Rome for not keeping control.

Scholars often compare Josephus’ report to the one found in the gospel of Mark. Mark claimed that John the Baptist had criticized the second marriage. Herod invited his clients to a birthday party, where he asked Herodias’ daughter, Salome, to dance for his guests. He promised her anything she wanted. Her mother told her to ask for the head of John the Baptist. While debating Josephus’ chronology, nevertheless, the story of the Baptist is considered historical and important from an outsider’s point

​

The Death of James, the Brother of Jesus​

In describing the rule of the procurator Albinus (62 CE), Josephus included the story of the stoning of James, the brother of Jesus:

And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus ... But this younger Ananus was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews ... Ananus was of this thought he had now a proper opportunity (to exercise his authority). Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned. (Antiquities, 20. 9).

Ananus was dismissed as high priest for acting on his own before the next Roman magistrate had arrived. Josephus did not clarify the details of the accusation as "breakers of the law." However, by the 2nd century CE, the story of James was expanded to include details of his piety so that he was then known as James the Just. According to this version, he was thrown down from the pinnacle of the Temple and is considered one of the first Christian martyrs.

The Testimonium Flavianum (Testimony of Flavius Josephus)​

I had to stop copy at this point due to size

Finally: What did Josephus say about Jesus returning in AD70.


From Did Josephus reveal Christ returned in A.D. 70? — Preterism

 

[MatthewG]

In Christ all things become new?

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things have become new.

The things of old pass away. Looking forward to our new heavenly home in heavenly Jerusalem.



”Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hebrews 11:1-2 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.

bible.com

It’s all by faith, I personally believe Jesus did not fail, those in that generation. People can mock the belief all they want, and dance on my shoes. I’ll still kiss your cheek and eat food with you.

No matter how many “facts”people bring up today, a reader of the Bible can make the choice to believe Jesus came to that nation at the time with judgment, and everything was made new.

Faith is not based on facts, it’s based on believing in something you cant see and have hope in?

 

[MatthewG]

View attachment 43744

Good questions.

If, which I do not believe, that actually happened it WOULD explain a lot as men, left to their own devices
tend to muck things up. (So do women)... but also consider that IF Jesus simply took those "sheep" (God's originally chosen) as he kind of described them in Mathew 15:24I suppose a case could be made that they being god's first chosen.. then a return to them first would be appropriate.

NO... I dont believe this... just musing.

Some of your questions could have a reasonable answer if there were any witnesses to what had happened.

I keep going back to Josephus who was alive at the time

A good read on some of his views.

Josephus on Christianity

Titus Flavius Josephus (36-100 CE), the Jewish historian, is the main source for understanding Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE. In the last decades of the 1st century CE, he wrote The Jewish...

www.worldhistory.org

Josephus on Christianity​

Titus Flavius Josephus (36-100 CE), the Jewish historian, is the main source for understanding Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE. In the last decades of the 1st century CE, he wrote The Jewish War, the Antiquities of the Jews, Against Apion, and The Life of Flavius Josephus. His histories and eyewitness testimonies remain essential to the study of the historical context that gave rise to the origins of Christianity.

Josephus​

Flavius Josephus was born Yosef ben Matityahu, a member of a priestly household in Jerusalem through his father’s side (the house and order of Jehoiarib), and his mother was of royal descent (Hasmonean). He was educated in Jerusalem and most likely shared ideology and sympathy with the party of the Pharisees.

CONSIDERED ONE OF THE GREATEST TRAITORS BY JEWS, CHRISTIANS WERE THE ONES WHO PRESERVED JOSEPHUS' WRITINGS FOR POSTERITY.
During the Great Jewish Revolt of 66 CE, Josephus was appointed the commander of Galilee. He became famous (and infamous) for changing sides during the siege at Jotapata. He successfully predicted that the Roman commander, Vespasian (r. 69-79 CE), would become the next Roman emperor. Vespasian spared his life, and Josephus spent the rest of the war as a consultant to Vespasian’s son Titus (r. 79-81 CE), who ultimately destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple complex in the year 70 CE. After the war, Josephus moved to Rome where he had access to archives and wrote his histories.

The writings of Josephus are crucially important for several disciplines: Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE, background sources for early Christianity, historical details of the client kings of the Roman Empire in the East, and the line of the Julio-Claudian emperors in Rome. Considered one of the greatest traitors by Jews, Christians were the ones who preserved his writings for posterity. This is because he wrote about John the Baptist, reported the death of Jesus’ brother, James, and provided a passage on Jesus himself.

Herod Antipas​

A son of Herod the Great (c. 75-4 BCE), Herod Antipas (r. 4 BCE - 39 CE) inherited the region of Galilee (as one of the tetrarchs, the sons of Herod the Great). Josephus described his reign and activities in detail in Antiquities. Antipas was married to the daughter of King Aretas of Petra (the Kingdom of Nabatea in Jordan). However, when meeting the wife of another half-brother, Herodias, he divorced the daughter of Aretas and married her. Aretas then went to war against Herod Antipas who was defeated. In a digression, Josephus added the following:


As a client king of Rome, Herod Antipas had a duty to keep law and order in his province. In this period, various messianic contenders riled up the mobs with anti-Roman speeches. Herod Antipas was afraid that the followers of John in their zealousness would rebel. He would be blamed by Rome for not keeping control.

Scholars often compare Josephus’ report to the one found in the gospel of Mark. Mark claimed that John the Baptist had criticized the second marriage. Herod invited his clients to a birthday party, where he asked Herodias’ daughter, Salome, to dance for his guests. He promised her anything she wanted. Her mother told her to ask for the head of John the Baptist. While debating Josephus’ chronology, nevertheless, the story of the Baptist is considered historical and important from an outsider’s point

​

The Death of James, the Brother of Jesus​

In describing the rule of the procurator Albinus (62 CE), Josephus included the story of the stoning of James, the brother of Jesus:


Ananus was dismissed as high priest for acting on his own before the next Roman magistrate had arrived. Josephus did not clarify the details of the accusation as "breakers of the law." However, by the 2nd century CE, the story of James was expanded to include details of his piety so that he was then known as James the Just. According to this version, he was thrown down from the pinnacle of the Temple and is considered one of the first Christian martyrs.

The Testimonium Flavianum (Testimony of Flavius Josephus)​

I had to stop copy at this point due to size

Finally: What did Josephus say about Jesus returning in AD70.


From Did Josephus reveal Christ returned in A.D. 70? — Preterism

It’s worth reading the actual book than off hand of what people say.

But in the end it still all ends and begins with Faith, @Rella ~ I am a woman.

Anyway all the best to you and many others! I believe people are all at different measures of faith, and one of those is depending on if Jesus actually came back or not.

In Christ all things become new?

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things have become new.

The things of old pass away. Looking forward to our new heavenly home in heavenly Jerusalem.


”Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hebrews 11:1-2 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.

bible.com

It’s all by faith, I personally believe Jesus did not fail, those in that generation. People can mock the belief all they want, and dance on my shoes. I’ll still kiss your cheek and eat food with you.

No matter how many “facts”people bring up today, a reader of the Bible can make the choice to believe Jesus came to that nation at the time with judgment, and everything was made new.

Faith is not based on facts, it’s based on believing in something you cant see and have hope in?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Finally: What did Josephus say about Jesus returning in AD70.

Josephus did not write anything about the day of Christ's AD 70 return to the Mount of Olives. When he mentioned the signs that were prevalent in Jerusalem and Judea just before the AD 66-70 war commenced, (the comet, the great light around the altar at night, the heifer giving birth to a lamb, the temple doors opening, the armies in the clouds, etc.) these occurred in AD 66 beginning with the Passover and in the days immediately following. As Josephus wrote, this was just before the war broke out (which was in October of AD 66.)

The prophet Joel had said of those first-century days that there would be wonders in heaven above preceding His return, and on the earth also - blood, fire, and pillars of smoke (wars, cities burning, and increased volcanic activity). These phenomena did happen in the 60's approaching Christ's AD 70 bodily return, and were recorded for us by various sources.

As for Josephus and Tacitus who recorded seeing armies in the skies engaged in conflict in AD 66 just after Passover, I believe this was God's heavenly hosts that were engaged in battle with the wicked angelic hosts of Satan, all of which unclean spirits were brought to be imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem for those AD 66-70 years (Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23).

When Tacitus and Josephus both recorded the account of the voice in the temple saying "let us depart hence" in AD 66, I believe this was God's righteous angelic hosts leaving the temple to be occupied solely from then on by Satan's imprisoned, wicked angelic hosts until the temple was destroyed in AD 70, as predicted.

 

[gpresdo]

One must change all the Bible to believe that Christ has returned.
That in it's self is a violation of the bible...change.

 

[3 Resurrections]

One must change all the Bible to believe that Christ has returned.
That in it's self is a violation of the bible...change.

A Preterist understanding of scripture's content does not change the scriptures - it acknowledges the time-relevant terms that scripture contains, and the language of imminence indicating Christ's bodily return to that first-century generation before it had passed away. Just as Peter wrote in 1 Peter 4:7 before his AD 67 martyrdom, "The end of all things is at hand" in his own days. The average church has no idea what that "end" meant for those first-century days.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Josephus did not write anything about the day of Christ's AD 70 return to the Mount of Olives. When he mentioned the signs that were prevalent in Jerusalem and Judea just before the AD 66-70 war commenced, (the comet, the great light around the altar at night, the heifer giving birth to a lamb, the temple doors opening, the armies in the clouds, etc.) these occurred in AD 66 beginning with the Passover and in the days immediately following. As Josephus wrote, this was just before the war broke out (which was in October of AD 66.)

Yes... 3Rs,

I have read a lot on these signs. And will not disagree that any of them took place.

What I have issue with is that not a single person witnessed the return of Jesus. YOU have said that you do not believe it was spiritual... but how is it there were witnesses for all the other things but not the 2nd single allegedly most important happening in history.

I have also read the date That the temple doors opened and that a heifer gave birth to a lamb in the middle of the temple, as it was about to be sacrificed. was March 20 AD66.
as written in A heifer gives birth to a lamb, temple gate opens by itself | Science and Bible Research
Which states:

A heifer gives birth to a lamb, temple gate opens by itself​

MARCH 20, 66 A.D. JERUSALEM​

Miracles abound at the feast of unleavened bread on March 20th in 66 A.D. (8th day of Nisan). While large numbers of worshipers gathered in Jerusalem, a heifer (a young female cow that has not had a calf ), as she was about to be sacrificed on the alter by the high priest, gave birth to a lamb in the middle of the temple. Recall that thirty-three years earlier, the Lamb of God was sacrificed outside Jerusalem's city gates (John 19:20, Hebrews 13:11-12). At the same festival, Josephus also reports that the "eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night" (Matthew 28:2-4).The wise rightly interpreted these signs as an act of God signaling Jerusalem's approaching desolation.

As to Josephus, (At this point I know more about him then I do myself), on these signs, I have this...

Miracles with Multiple Jewish and Roman Eyewitnesses

If we accept the common dating of Josephus's account of the Jewish War, around 75 CE, then consider what this means for the historicity of the following events. Apply the reasoning of those who argue for the historicity of New Testament miracles. Josephus declares he is recording events no more than

vridar.org

2020-01-14​

Miracles with Multiple Jewish and Roman Eyewitnesses​

This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License.

by Neil Godfrey​

Filed under: Ancient Literature, History and Biography
Tags: Angels of Mons, Josephus, Miracles


If we accept the common dating of Josephus’s account of the Jewish War, around 75 CE, then consider what this means for the historicity of the following events. Apply the reasoning of those who argue for the historicity of New Testament miracles. Josephus declares he is recording events no more than ten years earlier and he speaks of eyewitnesses.

First a star stood over the City, very like a broadsword, and a comet that remained a whole year.

Then before the revolt and the movement to war, while the people were assembling for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, on the 8th of Xanthicos at three in the morning so bright a light shone round the Altar and the Sanctuary that it might have been midday. This lasted half an hour. The inexperienced took it for a good omen, but the sacred scribes at once gave an interpretation which the event proved right.

During the same feast a cow brought by someone to be sacrificed gave birth to a lamb in the middle of the Temple courts,

while at midnight it was observed that the East Gate of the Inner Sanctuary had opened of its own accord – a gate made of bronze and so solid that every evening twenty strong men were required to shut it, fastened with iron-bound bars and secured by bolts which were lowered a long way into a threshold fashioned from a single slab of stone. The temple-guards ran with the news to the Captain, who came up and by a great effort managed to shut it. This like the other seemed to the laity to be the best of omens . . . .

A few days after the Feast, on the 21st of Artemisios, a supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I have to relate would, I suppose, have been dismissed as an invention had it not been vouched for by eyewitnesses and followed by disasters that bore out the signs. Before sunset there were seen in the sky over the whole country, chariots and regiments in arms speeding through the clouds and encircling the towns.

Again, at the Feast of Pentecost, when the priests had gone into the Inner Temple at night to perform the usual ceremonies, they declared that they were aware, first of a violent movement and a loud crash, then of a concerted cry: ‘Let us go hence.’
(Josephus, Jewish War, 6)

A star “over a city” is as nonsensical to us as a star positioned over the house where Jesus was found. And comets do not stay around for a full year. But how could Josephus get away with writing such things within ten years of them supposedly happening unless they were true and could not be contradicted by eyewitnesses, both Roman and Jewish?
Josephus further tells us that priests saw and interpreted the signs and priests would hardly lie. They were, after all, attempting to tell the masses that what they had seen should be interpreted as a sign from God carrying a different message.
If the cow giving birth to a lamb had been said to have happened in a cowshed or behind an outhouse then we could dismiss it easily enough. But how could Josephus expect to get away with saying it happened right in the middle of the Temple courts? Surely there were scores of eyewitnesses.
As for the appearance of angelic armies in the sky being confirmed by eyewitnesses, we can well believe it. We know the same type of event was recorded but a mere month after the battle at Mons in 1914: see the Angels of Mons.

Would you not think that somehow with all the recordings of all of these that someone would have recorded the actual appearance?

The prophet Joel had said of those first-century days that there would be wonders in heaven above preceding His return, and on the earth also - blood, fire, and pillars of smoke (wars, cities burning, and increased volcanic activity). These phenomena did happen in the 60's approaching Christ's AD 70 bodily return, and were recorded for us by various sources.

Yes, they happened. and recorded as a witness to us.

As for Josephus and Tacitus who recorded seeing armies in the skies engaged in conflict in AD 66 just after Passover, I believe this was God's heavenly hosts that were engaged in battle with the wicked angelic hosts of Satan, all of which unclean spirits were brought to be imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem for those AD 66-70 years (Rev. 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23).

I will not argue this with you.

When Tacitus and Josephus both recorded the account of the voice in the temple saying "let us depart hence" in AD 66, I believe this was God's righteous angelic hosts leaving the temple to be occupied solely from then on by Satan's imprisoned, wicked angelic hosts until the temple was destroyed in AD 70, as predicted.

But where is Jesus' return recorded? In some obscure Jewish writing in someone's ossuary?

I agree all happened except the return.

 

[Stash]

God has control of everything in this world. He is going to get Satan supernatural powers ( satan doesn't have any power) so Satan could not give his power to a normal man and possess him
To think that Satan is a normal man that will come out of the womb of a woman you will be deceived

Why is God going to give supernatural power to Satan? So that WE can be tested?
The Holy Spirit will be removed on Pentecost thus evil will run the world.
Will you throw away all your works and your salvation and will you worship the antichrist? that will be the test.
If you, God, would you test your so-called Christians?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Okay, well I am gonna have to disagree with you. I believe that the nation of Israel at the time, had become the Ha'Satan, they had killed the Lord Jesus Christ. And because of this, after resurrection and ascending, Satan was hindered for a moment before getting rid of by and through that former economy being divorced by God and God establishing a new covenant, now.

Satan has never owned the world. That is just something that is commonly said. The Nation of Israel known as Jews in the days of Jesus Christ, become the resembling of Ha'Satan and the darkness which comes by and through temptation to the Lord Jesus Christ, in order to bow down to them, and to accept the kindgoms that were there then at that time, but Jesus denied thought temptations which were coming by and through spiritual means which he had fought against.

Never said Satan owned the the world. He i s temporary ruler as is said in Scripture. He is called the god of this world and he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world dafter Jesus 40 days in the wilderness.

Luke 4:6-8

King James Version

​

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

as for all the writing you did about Israel, that is all personal opinion that is not supported by Scripture.

Satan is Satan. He is his own being, the anointed cherub that fell!

Israel cannot become Satan.

 

[amigo de christo]

that is in the creation account, not before creation since God is light and thee is no darkness in Him. Prior to creation it was all light.

Hit the trenches my friend . its all out war for the souls of men . Times will only get worse in these final days upon earth .
Point to JESUS CHRIST and ALL SOUND BIBLICAL DOCTRINE till the last breath my friend .

 

[MatthewG]

I disagree, @Ronald Nolette. Not all of Israel is Israel.

I disagree with the manmade traditions handed around.

”I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; And her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; There shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: for he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: And whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭1‬-‭33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Romans 9:1-33 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed | King James Version (KJV) | Downlo

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed

bible.com

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Jewish people at that time would have loved to have seen Jesus become an Idol, and be able to have control over all of that "world" that had existed, and not bringing in the new which the Father desired. Have you ever thought about this or heard about it before @Ronald Nolette

Well teh Zealots would have. But to all who later became Christians, they were looking for and found the Anointed of god!

 

[Marvelloustime]

Hit the trenches my friend . its all out war for the souls of men . Times will only get worse in these final days upon earth .
Point to JESUS CHRIST and ALL SOUND BIBLICAL DOCTRINE till the last breath my friend .

 

[MatthewG]

Satan was a representation of what Darkness, does, and makes something an Adversary.

Israel which was not Israel was an adversary to Jesus.

Therefore Israel did become Ha’ Satan. @Ronald Nolette

 

[MatthewG]

Matt 27:25 All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!” When putting the Son of God to death they said.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What I have issue with is that not a single person witnessed the return of Jesus. YOU have said that you do not believe it was spiritual... but how is it there were witnesses for all the other things but not the 2nd single allegedly most important happening in history.

There were to be no Christian believer witnesses to the return of Christ, since they had obediently fled Judea and Jerusalem, just as Christ had told them to do when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20-21). The witnesses of Christ's return to the Mount of Olives were those besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem in AD 70. Revelation 1:7 said that it would be specifically "every eye" of "those who pierced Him" who would see Him returning to Jerusalem. This second coming return of Christ was not going to be seen simultaneously by the world at large, since it was a local event seen only by those in the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem's Mount of Olives.

Read the records of what happened to all of those imprisoned within the city in that AD 70 year. In those last desperate few months, they died by the cartload of starvation, disease, suicide, and battle with the competing Zealot factions and the attacking Roman army. The bodies were thrown over the city walls, or stacked up inside houses in the city. Some were burned alive by the city's fires, or crucified. At the close of the war in Jerusalem, there were only about 97,000 left to be taken prisoner out of the approximate 2.7 millions that had been trapped in Jerusalem at the beginning of the war in October AD 66. These remaining Jeruslem prisoners were taken to perish in slavery, or died soon after in Roman arenas.

How do you think these eye witnesses of Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives in AD 70 would have been able to make or preserve a record of what they saw? Or if they made a record, who would they have given it to for preservation for posterity? Their enemies? It would have been unusual indeed if any of these 97,000 prisoners had the opportunity to make such a record after seeing Christ's second coming to the Mount of Olives and then His return to heaven.

I know you have done considerable reading on this period of history, Rella, with all those signs being recorded just before the beginning of the war. But consider this question: why would God stage all those miraculous portents and have them point to absolutely nothing? What would have been the culminating goal of all those marvels, if not to precede His coming return in judgment?