Does "the Gifts" List Refer To What Different People Get When They *become* Christians?
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Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Romans 11:29 has absolutely nothing to do with the unregenerate receiving charismatic gifts. If verse 29 is considered within its context it's easily grasped. In a nutshell, a major point in Paul's argument in chapter 11 is that when God makes a people the objects of his love, (gifts and calling), it's 'irrevocable.' That's what the KJV means in Romans 11:29 by 'without repentance.' Read through chapter 11 and follow Paul's argument and this will become clear.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. English Standard Version
Nomad
I never thought that I would read or participate in a discussion like this one on a Bible forum. For someone to suggest that the unregenerate recieve charismatic gifts is quite fascinating.
I think that I am going to like it here.
By the way, I agree with you 100%
Thank you Nomad
NewGuy
I never thought that I would read or participate in a discussion like this one on a Bible forum. For someone to suggest that the unregenerate recieve charismatic gifts is quite fascinating.
I think that I am going to like it here.
By the way, I agree with you 100%
Thank you Nomad
NewGuy
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
You're welcome. I grew up in charismatic circles where this particular misunderstanding was prevalent so I've seen it before.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Nomad
I was never big in the study of theology. I have spent my Life in study of Language. I have friends on both sides of the gifts issue . I believe that the Holy Spirit imparts gifts today but what gifts are they? Since we are called to share our faith and Minister to the Lost is would seem sensible to believe that God would not leave us to our own devices. In other words He gives us the necessary tools.
NewGuy
I was never big in the study of theology. I have spent my Life in study of Language. I have friends on both sides of the gifts issue . I believe that the Holy Spirit imparts gifts today but what gifts are they? Since we are called to share our faith and Minister to the Lost is would seem sensible to believe that God would not leave us to our own devices. In other words He gives us the necessary tools.
NewGuy
Just because it is your favorite subject does not mean that you are correct. Obama taught Constitutional Law and doesn't know squat about it. Many preachers have studied at seminaries and don't know squat about the Bible. If you don't like the American Heritage Dictionary base definition of the Genitive case, there is much on the internet for you to review. Here is a link to a site that backs up what I have been informing you regarding the multiplicity of the the expression type -
http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gcase.html
Therein this site, confirmation is made that there are many forms of the Genitve case in the Bible. Since you do study Greek, I would surmise that you know this to be true as well. Hence, this begs the question as to why you lock into one expression type [source] for Heb. 2:4 at the disdain of the other expression types?? Clearly, you are not being objective at all in your analysis, which tells me that you are already in one of those spiritual gifts-touting sects. You are allowing your indoctrination to cloud your judgment and the objective use of your Greek education.
Let me walk you through it since you claim that I am uninformed.
Act 1:4
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
There is the Genitive case in which the Father is the source and the 'promise' is the possession of [belongs to] the Father.
Act 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Here, the 'promise' is defined as the 'Holy Ghost'', which is the same pneuma hagion [Holy Ghost] of Heb. 2:4. There is absolutely no question that the Holy Ghost is the possession of God the Father.
Furthermore, the term 'gift' in Heb. 2:4 is not the charismata. Check it out in Strongs -
G3311
μερισμός
merismos
mer-is-mos'
merismos
mer-is-mos'
From
G3307; a separation or distribution: - dividing asunder, gift.
There is no basis for rendering it as 'gifts', but should have been rendered as 'gft' of 'dividing asunder'. It refers to the separation [third person of the Holy Trinity] from God.
You may know Greek -- but, you don't know Bible!!
Oh, really???? Did you bother to check it out in the manuscripts??
Rom. 11:29 with Strong's numbering -
Rom 11:29
ForG1063 theG3588 giftsG5486 andG2532 callingG2821 of GodG2316 are without repentance.G278
1 Cor. 12:4 with Strong's numbering -
1Co 12:4
NowG1161 there areG1526 diversitiesG1243 of gifts,G5486 butG1161 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit.G4151
As one can plainly see, in both scriptures, it is the same Greek word, which was rendered as 'gifts'. Check it out in Strong's -
G5486
χάρισμα
charisma
char'-is-mah
From G5483; a (divine) gratuity, that is, deliverance (from danger or passion); (specifically) a (spiritual) endowment, that is, (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty: - (free) gift.
It is one and the same charismata!! charisma
char'-is-mah
From G5483; a (divine) gratuity, that is, deliverance (from danger or passion); (specifically) a (spiritual) endowment, that is, (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty: - (free) gift.
Accordingly, the true Christian knows that, since the charismata is given by God irrespective of whether one is a Christian or not, it is not a special gift from the Holy Spirit upon becoming a believer. All christian sects that tout 'spiritual gifts' are false religions.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
I have no idea why you addressed these comments to me. I said absolutely nothing about charismatic gifts. I addressed an entirely different error in one of your posts.
I see that you not only failed to interact in any way, shape or form with my explanation of Romans 11:29, you continue to cling to your error. Based on my presentation here allow me to point out the problems with you interpretation of the phrase 'without repentance' as found in the KJV.
The entirety of Romans 11 deals with the fact that God will not permanently reject his people Israel. See verse 2 for example. The chapter culminates with Paul's declaration that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. The chapter says nothing about God giving 'gifts' of any kind to the unregenerate/unrepentant. If you insist on your erroneous reading of verse 29 then we have Paul making a stray comment that has neither referent nor antecedent. For Paul to say that God gives 'gifts' to the unregenerate in the middle of explaining that God has not cast his people away forever makes absolutely no sense. If this were not enough, the kind of 'repentance' you have in mind is conveyed by the Greek word 'metanoia' which basically means 'a change of mind.' That's not the word being used in Romans 11:29. There the word is 'ametameletos' meaning 'without regret.' Both words can be rendered 'repentance' but it must be kept in mind which Greek word we're dealing with in order to get the proper meaning. With this in mind it should now be easy to see that Romans 11:29 does not say that the unregenerate may be the recipients of God's 'gifts.' That idea is completely foreign to the text linguistically as well as contextually. It says that God's gifts and calling toward Israel are 'without regret' or in other words, 'irrevocable.' Again, Paul's argument in Romans 11:29 is that God has not finally or completely rejected his people Israel.
Watchman_2
I sense that you don't like me. Your posts seem to be attacking in nature. Not sure what I said or did other than to disagree with you so I am not sure that I wish to continue this discussion.
NewGuy
I sense that you don't like me. Your posts seem to be attacking in nature. Not sure what I said or did other than to disagree with you so I am not sure that I wish to continue this discussion.
NewGuy
Hi NewGuy. I just want to say that we have the complete Bible for us, so we aren't left alone to our own devices. The believers in the New Testament didn't have all the writings of the Bible. People prophesized during the laying of the foundation. During the laying of the foundation men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Above all, you must understand[sup][/sup] that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God[sup][/sup] as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.[sup][/sup] 2 Peter 1:20-21
And read this scripture---
Now to him who is able[sup][/sup] to establish you by my gospel[sup][/sup] and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery[sup][/sup] hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings[sup][/sup] by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey[sup][/sup] him-- to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.[sup][/sup] Romans 16:25-27
The Bible does tell us that prophecies will cease, tongues will be stilled, and knowledge will pass away.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies,[sup][/sup] they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
Of course God can do any miracle. And I do know that God does miraculous healings. The Bible doesn't say that healings will stop. But again, the Bible does tell us that prophecies will cease, and tongues.
There are denominations who say they have prophets in their church, but we know that if anyone gave a prophecy and said it was from God, yet it was not in the Bible....Bible believers would not accept it. It would have to be something already written in the Bible. If it is already written in the Bible, then it isn't new prophecies. So you see....prophecies have ceased. And for speaking in tongues, it was for a sign to the Jews. It was a sign to the Jews during the laying of the foundation. The foundation has been laid, and the sign has been given.
No, I'm not saying that. I'm mostly speaking of prophecizing and speaking in tongues. Some denominations say they have prophets in their church, and it seems they do more of only fortune telling about the church members, but no new prophecies about God. Also they say they can speak in tongues, yet there isn't anything supernatural about their tongue speaking.
Anastacia
I know what you mean. I know that the scriptures clearly show that there is a supernatural love that we receive and it is ours to distribute to others. It is something that we cannot do prior to the salvation event.
By the way I must go out into the cold to help a friend in need. It is in the 20's in our area and he has lost his furnace.
Be blessed
The NewGuy
I know what you mean. I know that the scriptures clearly show that there is a supernatural love that we receive and it is ours to distribute to others. It is something that we cannot do prior to the salvation event.
By the way I must go out into the cold to help a friend in need. It is in the 20's in our area and he has lost his furnace.
Be blessed
The NewGuy
I hate false religion -- not the person. For false religion is the work of Satan, whom I also hate. If I hated the person, I would not bother spending my time correcting and edifying in God's Truth. I would simply keep the Truth to myself and not give a hoot if others' false religion causes them to miss the first resurrection with a possible trip to the lake of fire.
To the extent that you stick your head in the sand with respect to your false religion, it would be you, and not me, that does not like yourself. I simply pity people who put their respective tradition-of-man indoctrination ahead of Truth! The Truth sets one free!
Let me explain it to you.
Those folks that are indoctrinated into the false religions [Pentecostalism and Charismacostalism primarily], which tout 'spritual gifts', are taught that the charismata are only given by the Holy Spirit to those who are true believers. My arguments have been the following:
1. There is no such concept as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible [the manuscripts].
2. The charismata is not gibberish [called 'tongues' by the false religions] or fake faith healings [as practiced by Benny Hinn and others], etc. -- but, are the ordinary skills each of us have, irrespective of being a believer or not.
Accordingly, I raise Rom. 11:29 as further proof of my arguments. Though the overall subject of Rom. 11 is not the same as 1 Cor. 12 or Heb. 2:4, one can glean the following Bible facts from Rom. 11:29:
1. The charismata is given by God -- not the Holy Spirit.
2. The charismata is given at birth -- irrespective of one's belief status based upon foreknowledge.
3. The charismata is given without repentance -- one does not have to be a believer.
Your understanding of Rom. 11 is way off the mark! First, Paul is making the distinction between the two classifications for salvation. -- (1) those he foreknew [v. 2], which are the 'elect' [v. 7] of the endtime and the 'remnant' [v. 5] at that time and (2) the blind [v. 7], which are those of the classification whosoever will, of which some are given the spirit of slumber [v.8].
As for the underlying relevance of Rom. 11:29, see 11:28. Paul is addressing the 'election', who are touched by God for God's sake -- not because they are regenerate. The elect's calling and charismata had nothing whatsoever to do with their belief status -- but, was decided by God, who foreknew [for the deeper student, based upon the first age] them. V. 30 confirms it. It was the 'gift' from God within them already that allowed them to come into belief from the other's unbelief, upon hearing the Word of Truth. God uses the 'election' to teach the other classification for salvation -- the whosoever will [v. 31].
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