Dogmatic Certainties

[stunnedbygrace]

I find that dogmatic certainties result from actual encounters, and an actual walk with God.

What I read in Scripture is revealed in my life. And I know it is true, first, by believing the Bible, but also by it becoming my life.

Much love!

Oh my gosh, my own walk is completely the opposite of this! The moment I become very certain I understand Him, He just shakes my world all up like a snow globe! He gives me more understanding in each shake up, but the more I seem to know of Him, the less I seem to know, which will probably make no sense to anyone but there it is!

 

[Helen]

The reason that Dogmatism is so popular, is that Dogmatism works! It is the myth that the one who is the best debater is always correct. Look at the bad doctrine some people will follow. Look at how their teacher/preacher presents it. Who will you believe? The person who says that they don't know if it adds up, or the person who declares that God said it, I believe it!

In my experience, "Come let us reason together" almost always fails to convince the audience when arguing with someone who dogmatically declares... "I know that I know that I know this is what God says!"

Excellent post.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think this is a very real issue for many Christians. I compare walking in the Spirit to living in free-fall. And I think there are many who feel the need to control.



I think this comes about by realizing that we are no longer "ordinary humans", but are new creations who are holy and righteous.



I think that with the renewing of the mind, many more can become able to live life this way.

Much love!

This is the point where I always come to groan, and can no longer get on with you, where you say you are holy. This truly is one of those dogmatic certitudes but with absolutely no proof that you should cling to it so. Where is the proof, the healings, the raising of the dead, the walking in power?

Jesus said we would do even greater things. So if we don't see that, wouldn't it be logical to then question where we must have gone wrong instead of asserting over and over that we are holy?

 

[Enoch111]

This is the point where I always come to groan, and can no longer get on with you, where you say you are holy.

Instead of groaning about it, why don't you get a better grasp of the meaning of salvation by grace through faith in Christ?

Do you believe that God imputes righteousness to the sinner who believes on Christ? If not, why not, when the Bible makes it crystal clear.

Do you believe that God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to the believer? And that believers are sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit? That Christ Himself is our righteousness and our sanctification?

 

[Helen]

We are called to separate from those who are false in their doctrine. So no, dogmatic certainties are not ego-driven. It is a biblical mandate.

Well my friend- then I ask what @amadeus asked you.
WHY are you HERE..on a forum that is broad minded, open, and all embracing ...to Baptists , Pentecostals, Methodists LDS, SDA, JW'S ETC?????

Good question.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Instead of groaning about it, why don't you get a better grasp of the meaning of salvation by grace through faith in Christ?

Do you believe that God imputes righteousness to the sinner who believes on Christ? If not, why not, when the Bible makes it crystal clear.

Do you believe that God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to the believer? And that believers are sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit? That Christ Himself is our righteousness and our sanctification?

Impute, have no idea. I know if a man believes God, God counts it to the man as righteousness. This is the righteousness that is by faith.

Yes, I believe God then gives the Holy Spirit to a man, a down payment as some call it, or an earnest deposit. The man can then be led by and taught by the Holy Spirit. This is training in righteousness and renewing of the mind, so that the man can come into agreement with God, because if two do not agree how can they walk together? But I do not think being led by the Holy Spirit is the same thing as walking IN the Holy Spirit just as Jesus walked.

If we are unfaithful, (and we are as we learn the obedience of trust and fail in trust many times), God is still faithful as He brings us to not just Him remaining in us, but we also remaining in Him.

But when a man goes around crowing he is holy when he does not walk as Jesus walked, it is some odd make believe thing to me.

Also, God counts a man as righteous if a man believes God. But if you believe God fully, you obey Him fully, but we prove many times that we don't believe Him fully or obey Him fully. Even just getting caught in monetary worry is not the obedience of trust. But men will claim they are counted as righteous because of their trust Even WHILE they are not trusting! Even the wisdom of the world that says we must stockpile 2 million dollars to survive retirement is not the obedience of trust but is following the wisdom of the world.

 

[Episkopos]

Do you believe that God imputes righteousness to the sinner who believes on Christ? If not, why not, when the Bible makes it crystal clear.

God is honest and truthful. He can't impute righteousness on a person unless He sees that righteousness. This is the religious foolishness that has caused the name of the Lord to be blasphemed in the world.

You don't impute barking to a chicken or meowing to a pig. But that is just the kind of fiction that has arisen through a carnal and deviant reasoning. Why? Self-righteousness.

Do you believe that God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to the believer?

How do you define a believer? God defines this by actually giving that person the Holy Spirit...like in real life. Not by a dogmatic claim on the self-interested ideologue.

And that believers are sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit?

Only when they in turn abide in Christ. This is an option....an option that few will seek for. Claiming to be a holy sinner is just par for the course in the corrupted church.

That Christ Himself is our righteousness and our sanctification?

When we abide in Christ God places His righteousness on us...with power...like when Peter declared Ananias and Sapphira dead. THAT was God's righteousness at work. God's own righteousness is according to all authority....for the function of bringing judgment to the church.

But that is a whole universe from what you mean. You want to take away righteousness from the righteous and claim your feeble attempts at being good are Christ Himself failing through you. And you don't have any honesty to admit it.

So you deny the power of grace in your every breath....and in your every post.

Circular reasoning: Hey since I believe in Jesus that means I am righteous...and I'm righteous (much more than any people who don't sit in pews) because I believe in Jesus. So self-righteousness is received along with the belief. (Note_ Abraham NEVER claimed to be righteous for his faith...but God did)

 

[marks]

This is the point where I always come to groan, and can no longer get on with you, where you say you are holy. This truly is one of those dogmatic certitudes but with absolutely no proof that you should cling to it so. Where is the proof, the healings, the raising of the dead, the walking in power?

It's not so much that I say I'm holy, it's that I accept by faith what the Bible says. I know this one we see differently, just the same, it seems very clear and plain to me that this IS what the Bible says,

Ephesians 4
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is how God can say to us, Be ye holy even as I am holy.

God tells us to fly, and we say, but I don't see any wings, and God says, Trust Me! Walk by faith in My Word, not what you see in your life.

God tells us to be holy as He is holy, and we say, I don't see it!

But I find that when I say, I believe it, then the freedom from sin that Jesus purchased for us becomes the abundant life that we live. Believing that this impossible reality is true is what opens the door for us to experience it.

Much love!

 

[Helen]

Why are we plagued with so many dogmatic certainties and religious opinions? The ego driven agenda would put these as more important than love and unity. They are things to squabble over rather than coming to any kind of agreement. Is this not carnal?

So I have identified, more or less a few causes for these DC's as follows.

-reactions to the things we hate. (bad experiences)
-self-interest (ambitions and perceived religious assurances)
-ideological preferences
-drawing wrong conclusions based on quick and rash judgments
-personal dissatisfaction and disaffection with the status quo

Now this trend towards personal opinions or preferences short-circuits any possibility of the mind of Christ coming to the fore. The DC's get in the way of love, unity, tolerance and openness to the experience of others by creating false hierarchies of what is important.

I would have to add FEAR to your list.
We know it's arrogance...but also fear and insecurity feed into it.
Insecurity in that they would choke is they would ever admitted and said -
" I am chewing upon that"...or "I have not settled a 100% on that yet."

And when have you ever seen one of them say-

"Excellent thought, I had never seen it like that before." They would choke first.

Sadly they are stuck. Their mind is made up...therefore they cannot ever grow because they are totally unteachable, because they 'know it all'. So totally fearful of being open to 'hearing a different word'.

People who are mature and secure never mind hearing another point of view.

 

[Episkopos]

It's not so much that I say I'm holy, it's that I accept by faith what the Bible says.

But the bible is not talking to you personally. That is what dogmatic reasoning does. You are not Abraham...and you are not Paul...and not even an early believer that Paul was addressing. So only a self-interest would claim something like that without a real walk in holiness. And even then...humility dictates that we don't boast of such things...or even claim such things. Holiness is a gift given to the faithful in Christ IF they meet God's requirements. He holds the initiative...not people.

If you want to play the bible game...or just be honest...why don't you identify with the Laodiceans? Or the Pharisees?

 

[Helen]

Oh my gosh, my own walk is completely the opposite of this! The moment I become very certain I understand Him, He just shakes my world all up like a snow globe! He gives me more understanding in each shake up, but the more I seem to know of Him, the less I seem to know, which will probably make no sense to anyone but there it is!

Agree. Once we brush our hands together saying. "I have arrived..what I believe I am confident , solid and correct in, in all aspects." Then we have closed our ears and hearts any further teaching from the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you...I have had almost as many years in UN-learning things I held tight to, and thought I could never change ..and God has then slapped my had and said.. "Have ever considered it like this", and then my jaw drops open.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's not so much that I say I'm holy, it's that I accept by faith what the Bible says. I know this one we see differently, just the same, it seems very clear and plain to me that this IS what the Bible says,

Ephesians 4
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is how God can say to us, Be ye holy even as I am holy.

God tells us to fly, and we say, but I don't see any wings, and God says, Trust Me! Walk by faith in My Word, not what you see in your life.

God tells us to be holy as He is holy, and we say, I don't see it!

But I find that when I say, I believe it, then the freedom from sin that Jesus purchased for us becomes the abundant life that we live. Believing that this impossible reality is true is what opens the door for us to experience it.

Much love!

Yes, it says, and be renewed in your mind. Does it say, you have already been renewed in mind or does it say BE renewed in your mind? One would be stating this has already happened completely, the other would be more like saying, do this, cooperate with God in this, etc.

So which does it say - BE renewed in mind or you ARE fully renewed in mind.

And then further it says put on the new man. Does it say you have already done this or does it tell you and encourage you TO do it?

And if we read it in the order given, it could seem to be showing that the renewing of our mind comes first and the putting on of the new man comes second. I have no reason to believe they absolutely must be mashed together.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

• Training in righteousness and learning the obedience of faith is not just saying you believe Jesus died. If I believe He died but I refuse the obedience of trust regarding an earthly thing like provision and only collecting enough for the day, what does that show? It shows a partial trusting of Him. Does that show holiness?? Does it show being all in? Does it show I am completely set aside for Gods use?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The requirement is that you give everything. I think that is impossible for men. So there MUST come a time where it becomes God or it will forever be impossible...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It says to put on the new man, and then it tells us about that new man.

Colossians 3
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

In this passage, we see the same thing, that there is an old man, and there is a new man, and we are to put off the old man, and put on the new man.

Much love!

And you claim to have fully done that? Do you ever feel anger or malice? Do you ever tell a lie out of embarrassment for what you have said, done or thought?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And again, as for the righteousness that is by faith/trust, the moment you think you are fully trusting, He will show you where you aren't. So it isn't even wise to declare you are righteous, really, let alone holy.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No I do not claim that I only live the new man. No. Does my faith falter, and I allow the works of the flesh? Yes I do. Of course I do. Everyone does.

But as we trust Him for His life in us, we can walk in the Spirit without hindrance.

Much love!

But if you have not attained to that level of trust yet, why not be honest about it and ask for what you lack, rather than saying God has said you are righteous even when you leave the trust through which God declares a man righteous?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Look at what the passage says though.

Stop doing this wrong things, because you've put of the old man, and have put on the new.

Even having put on the new man, we can still do wrong.

If you put on the new man, which has been created by God in righteousness AND holiness, Then you should be walking in righteousness and holiness. So why would you claim to have put on the new man?? And especially why, after you have just said you are not even righteous since you fail in the trust by which God declares a man righteous...?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

• What is all this about making declarations? I almost feel pushed into it, I'm not really trying to talk about me, I want to talk about what the Bible teaches first, and then make application to us. I'm not calling myself righteous. I'm quoting verses of the Bible.

Well, you have quite often said we are righteous and holy but we just don't believe it yet.

Meanwhile, the righteousness that is by faith, is by faith! It is that which CAN lead to holiness, but it is mind boggling to say God declares you righteous because of your faith but then to say you don't believe Him yet fully, which is to say you lack faith...! Are you then righteous through lack of faith? That's a complete rewrite.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What does justification mean to you?

Much love!

We do have an example of two men and the one walked away justified after he prayed and the other did not. Their example shows and proves that God justifies sinners, but not all sinners.

When I read the passage, I see that God justified the man who KNEW he was a sinner, admitted he WAS a sinner, and trusted God.

The man was a sinner who told the truth. He walked away justified. So God justifies sinners. But aren't you just on the edge of your seat asking, but what did he do differently than another sinner to walk away justified whereas the other sinner did not?? He told the truth! That's what he did! God justifies sinners who tell the truth and believe that He is merciful!