Dogmatic Certainties

[amadeus]

This is the point where I always come to groan, and can no longer get on with you, where you say you are holy. This truly is one of those dogmatic certitudes but with absolutely no proof that you should cling to it so. Where is the proof, the healings, the raising of the dead, the walking in power?

Jesus said we would do even greater things. So if we don't see that, wouldn't it be logical to then question where we must have gone wrong instead of asserting over and over that we are holy?

"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matt 26:41

We really are able to 'go up' only by going down. We can by no means be lifted up higher by grabbing hold of our own bootstraps and I saying I can do this. Rather with publican praying beside the Pharisee, we need to ask God to have mercy on us because we cannot alone do this thing.

"For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:11

 

[amadeus]

The requirement is that you give everything. I think that is impossible for men. So there MUST come a time where it becomes God or it will forever be impossible...

The only way to really even approach the point of giving everything is to ask Him for help... and He will help when and if we do!

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

We cannot stop asking before until everything in the way between us and Him is gone, because alone we will fall again. Overcoming is what, with God help, we are to do, but if we are still tempted, then we are still here in this world.

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,..." John 17:11

 

[prism]

Why are we plagued with so many dogmatic certainties and religious opinions? The ego driven agenda would put these as more important than love and unity. They are things to squabble over rather than coming to any kind of agreement. Is this not carnal?

Depends. If dogmatic certainties = truth, then many martyrs went to their death for such. But if it is a matter of majoring on the minors and other such squabbling, then no, love and unity should prevail.

 

[prism]

People prefer dogmatic beliefs to a living faith

Must they be exclusive? The Apostle Paul strikes me as quite dogmatic, yet he had has a living faith.

 

[Episkopos]

Must they be exclusive? The Apostle Paul strikes me as quite dogmatic, yet he had has a living faith.

It seems that way...if you are looking that way. God has allowed for people to get it wrong. If something can be misinterpreted...it will be!

 

[Episkopos]

Depends. If dogmatic certainties = truth, then many martyrs went to their death for such. But if it is a matter of majoring on the minors and other such squabbling, then no, love and unity should prevail.

Truth is about life...the eternal kind of life. Dogmatics is about theories posited by religious beliefs...formulated into an ideology. If you don't have love what is the point? Communists and fascists also die for their causes.

 

[Episkopos]

We do have an example of two men and the one walked away justified after he prayed and the other did not. Their example shows and proves that God justifies sinners, but not all sinners.

When I read the passage, I see that God justified the man who KNEW he was a sinner, admitted he WAS a sinner, and trusted God.

The man was a sinner who told the truth. He walked away justified. So God justifies sinners. But aren't you just on the edge of your seat asking, but what did he do differently than another sinner to walk away justified whereas the other sinner did not?? He told the truth! That's what he did! God justifies sinners who tell the truth and believe that He is merciful!

The irony is that they who don't claim they have talking bibles that speak to them...can be justified. It's the religious ones who claim their bibles are justifying them....the ones who are deluded into thinking the bible speaks to them...these are not justified.

We have a generation of brainwashed ideologues who are exhibiting a psychological pathology...which is passing for a living faith.

People are taking "the bible told me so" way too far. The bible as a narrative...while true...does not involve us. It is the Spirit that gives life.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Episkopos,

Why are we plagued with so many dogmatic certainties and religious opinions? The ego driven agenda would put these as more important than love and unity. They are things to squabble over rather than coming to any kind of agreement. Is this not carnal?

No...it is commanded in scripture.

Now this trend towards personal opinions or preferences short-circuits any possibility of the mind of Christ coming to the fore. The DC's get in the way of love, unity, tolerance and openness to the experience of others by creating false hierarchies of what is important.

Unity does not take place among error;
Amos3:
3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

The irony is that they who don't claim they have talking bibles that speak to them...can be justified. It's the religious ones who claim their bibles are justifying them....the ones who are deluded into thinking the bible speaks to them...these are not justified.

We have a generation of brainwashed ideologues who are exhibiting a physiological pathology...which is passing for a living faith.

People are taking "the bible told me so" way too far. The bible is a narrative...while true...does not involve us. It is the Spirit that gives life.

This new age philosophy is contrary to scriptural teaching. This is confused thought, and carnal philosophy under the guise of Spirit-led truth.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

This is an example of what I'm saying. You should realize that all certainties come from the human mind. The ways of God are mysterious..and we never truly know ourselves as God does. So we can't trust our self-interested ideas. It is foolishness to do so. Instead we should get oil for our lamps in order to be a light to the world and a witness to HIS kind of life and love. Nobody cares, God included, about your doctrinal positions. They can't save you...they can only harden you and make you proud of yourself.

The letter kills...but the Spirit gives life.

This is a totally anti-scriptural post. You have missed most of the NT. with such ideas.

 

[ScottA]

The Bible is meant to give Christians dogmatic certainties (but not religious opinions). The Gospel itself is a PROCLAMATION of dogmatic certainties.

1 CORINTHIANS 15

THE GOSPEL: A DECLARATION AND A PROCLAMATION
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you... [Note: preaching = proclamation]

DOGMATIC CERTAINTY #1:
CHRISTIANS ARE TO FIRMLY STAND ON THE GOSPEL
...which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand...

DOGMATIC CERTAINTY #2:
CHRISTIANS ARE SAVED BY OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL
...2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

DOGMATIC CERTAINTY #3:
THE GOSPEL WAS RECEIVED FROM GOD AND CHRIST
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received...

DOGMATIC CERTAINTY #4:
CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES
...how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

DOGMATIC CERTAINTY #5:
CHRIST WAS ENTOMBED FOR THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS
...4 And that he was buried...

DOGMATIC CERTAINTY #6:
CHRIST ROSE AGAIN FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION
...and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The unsaved and dying world needs these dogmatic certainties. So if you have a problem with that, then you should be asking yourself whether you really believe the Gospel. And it is Satan who would have people believe that there are no dogmatic certainties in the Bible.

This is SO off....but expected. God doesn't want a religious dogmatic adherence. He wants worshippers in Spirit and truth. Maybe you didn't get the memo?

The carnal mind is not with God. We need to break out from the pull of this world and the ready-made certainties that taint the soul. God is looking for relationship...not lip-service.

The definition of an ideology is that it ignores reality and hopes for the best...taking only those things that support a good ending. So it doesn't matter how true something is...to make an ideology of it is to destroy the truth of it. You can't make LIFE in God a dogmatic thing at all.

Imagine this verse being taken dogmatically...

Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:

So all the dogmatic religious types have to do is draw the wrong conclusion and claim to be born of God because of a recitation of a creed and the mental assent (apart from any transformation into the character of Jesus). But Many will say Lord, Lord....and be rejected. If we have even an ounce of discernment we would realize that all the shallow superficial notions that people get without the LIFE and LOVE that Jesus brings to the world in OUR lives...is exactly pointless.

Pharisees beware.

And there's the rub. Thanks guys--great enactment!

Seriously, both posts are great!

But the war is not won by winning either battle--though I am also guilty. It is won by seeing both as components of the end result and that which is to be gained, and not letting the personal perspective differences become an impasse. Yes, we fight not against flesh and blood. We might just as well preach the day and curse the darkness. The problem is, even the day (while it is called today) also includes the darkness...just as it has been appointed.

Therefore, preach the day. Walk in it.

 

[Episkopos]

This is a totally anti-scriptural post. You have missed most of the NT. with such ideas.

If only your reasoning wasn't exactly backwards. When people decide they are of God for themselves they leave God and reality out of the equation. God recruits people into His kingdom...not us. Nobody walks into a job and says...ok I'm working here now. We need to be hired...equipped and given the task from an authority outside ourselves.

But modern "new-agers" want to skip God's approval and decide for themselves just how justified and saved they are through a self-interested self analysis. Utter foolishness. These deny that God actually comes to us by His Spirit to call and equip us into His service.

Not by our will.

They who comfort themselves in arrogance and great presumption don't need God to send His Comforter to them. They have already comforted themselves...while still in a fallen state. They who do this REMAIN in that fallen state since they believe the bible is there to preserve that fallenness. Such backwards reasoning is the motivation behind your posts.
We don't receive grace by leaning on our own understanding.

Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. I don't think humility is known among the entitled and spoiled children of these modern times.

The natural state of all humans is to be poor, naked, wretched and blind. People who justify themselves after reading the bible remain so. And to continue to build on this false foundation assures that they will never grow.

Open yourself up to God and His reality and truth. Cease from your own presumptions and seek the Lord while He may be found.

 

[Episkopos]

And there's the rub. Thanks guys--great enactment!

Seriously, both posts are great!

But the war is not won by winning either battle--though I am also guilty. It is won by seeing both as components of the end result and that which is to be gained, and not letting the personal perspective differences become an impasse. Yes, we fight not against flesh and blood. We might just as well preach the day and curse the darkness. The problem is, even the day (while it is called today) also includes the darkness...just as it has been appointed.

Therefore, preach the day. Walk in it.

Are you seeking a balance between the carnal mind and the mind of Christ?

When you boil down the truth from the actual person of Jesus Christ you get facts about the truth...not truth itself. And facts don't set you free or give you life.

 

[bbyrd009]

"What is the Pearl of Great Price?"
"I dont know"

 

[Episkopos]

"What is the Pearl of Great Price?"
"I dont know"

The pearl is that relationship we can have with Christ. But to have it we need to be where He is...so we need to break with this world (sell all) and be in the kingdom realm that God translates us into. When we are in that realm (spiritual) we can have fellowship with Jesus and the Father. We become employees of God.

But many people today are like they who read a Wal Mart employee manual (bible) and assume they can go to work without actually being hired to do the job. Of course they are free to be customers. But employees need to be hired. So then as that deluded person is checking the people's purchases..they are challenged...where is your blue vest? Of course there is no answer. So that person will be kicked out and forbidden from ever coming back.

Now compare that to this...

Mat. 22
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

If only your reasoning wasn't exactly backwards. When people decide they are of God for themselves they leave God and reality out of the equation. God recruits people into His kingdom...not us. Nobody walks into a job and says...ok I'm working here now. We need to be hired...equipped and given the task from an authority outside ourselves.

But modern "new-agers" want to skip God's approval and decide for themselves just how justified and saved they are through a self-interested self analysis. Utter foolishness. These deny that God actually comes to us by His Spirit to call and equip us into His service.

Not by our will.

They who comfort themselves in arrogance and great presumption don't need God to send His Comforter to them. They have already comforted themselves...while still in a fallen state. They who do this REMAIN in that fallen state since they believe the bible is there to preserve that fallenness. Such backwards reasoning is the motivation behind your posts.
We don't receive grace by leaning on our own understanding.

Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. I don't think humility is known among the entitled and spoiled children of these modern times.

The natural state of all humans is to be poor, naked, wretched and blind. People who justify themselves after reading the bible remain so. And to continue to build on this false foundation assures that they will never grow.

Open yourself up to God and His reality and truth. Cease from your own presumptions and seek the Lord while He may be found.

Hello E,
There are times I understand what you are posting and at other times kind of shake my head.
Shaking my head now....
This whole thread is not clear at best and has major error in it.
God has given objective truth that is foundational to the Christian life. Eph2:20.
It is meant to be understood, and obeyed.
We are given the Spirit in large part to be able to understand truth, not so truth can be uncertain and as elusive as a butterfly.

 

[Episkopos]

Hello E,
There are times I understand what you are posting and at other times kind of shake my head.
Shaking my head now....
This whole thread is not clear at best and has major error in it.
God has given objective truth that is foundational to the Christian life. Eph2:20.
It is meant to be understood, and obeyed.
We are given the Spirit in large part to be able to understand truth, not so truth can be uncertain and as elusive as a butterfly.

By objective truth do you mean the person of Jesus Christ? It's too easy to try bringing God down to our level. But the results are not that good. The ready-made doctrines that we receive are in low resolution. IOW they need to be unpacked. When we send a big file over the internet we compress it. Now at the other end we need the correct program to unpack or uncompress the file in order to understand it's contents.

The bible is written in low resolution...these huge statements that are meant to be uncompressed. But the files themselves in their uncompressed state do NOT convey the depth of the truth.

Having an uncompressed file doesn't mean you have actually received it in it's value or in one's understanding.

So it is with the bible. The truth is so vast and wonderful that it must be reduced in format for easy distribution. But leaving it in that format has no value to the one receiving it...unless it is unpacked.

So the disagreements are in what the files really contain. There is so much speculation going on. How can they who have actually unpacked the files...through the power and gift of the Spirit... convey to they who have indeed received the files...and trust them...but without actually knowing the true content...explain the depth of the mystery in the Lord?


Humility is required...patience is required. Seeking the Lord is required. Pray for the same program from God (the Holy Spirit) that compressed the files to begin with and enter into the world of high resolution!

 

[prism]

Truth is about life...the eternal kind of life. Dogmatics is about theories posited by religious beliefs...formulated into an ideology.

Is that your 'dogmatism'?

If you don't have love what is the point? Communists and fascists also die for their causes.

You are only proving my point as Communists and Facists don't have truth.
Realize all your statements against "truth" are self defeating, even to say 'love is greater than truth' is self defeating as it puts itself forth as a truth proposition.

 

[ScottA]

Are you seeking a balance between the carnal mind and the mind of Christ?

When you boil down the truth from the actual person of Jesus Christ you get facts about the truth...not truth itself. And facts don't set you free or give you life.

No, I am not advocating for pharisaical thinking, but rather seeing that God has seen fit to turn brother against brother. My comment was to encourage us all to consider that we need not take the fight to each other, but to know better than to do so, and to let God divide the light from the darkness, which He does daily even without us.

But, I know that I am no one to talk. I too take my brothers to the task, to call them out; and yet I recognize that there is a measure of it that God has even ordained, that what some men mean for evil, He means for God. I just think this is a place where we need to be wiser than the serpent, even to love our would-be enemies. Because, it is true, we fight not against flesh and blood.

 

[Episkopos]

No, I am not advocating for pharisaical thinking, but rather seeing that God has seen fit to turn brother against brother. My comment was to encourage us all to consider that we need not take the fight to each other, but to know better than to do so, and to let God divide the light from the darkness, which He does daily even without us.

But, I know that I am no one to talk. I too take my brothers to the task, to call them out; and yet I recognize that there is a measure of it that God has even ordained, that what some men mean for evil, He means for God. I just think this is a place where we need to be wiser than the serpent, even to love our would-be enemies. Because, it is true, we fight not against flesh and blood.

I am trying to connect with brothers. But there is something un-brotherly in the way...a lack of honesty and transparency. There is a great deal of false doctrine, brainwashing and dogmatic triumphalism that has spoiled the church. But many cling to that as if it was of God rather than from men...or worse....the enemy. So the churches have been fully infiltrated...if not by one false spirit...then another one that does an equal damage...but in another way. And there is so little discernment that each can justify itself against the other. The far right fundamentalist fascist churches attack the far left neo-marxist post modernist churches...and vice versa. Politics is from the devil...divide and conquer. But few know about that. Most "believers" are fooled by politics and are no wiser than anyone else in the world.

So maybe you yourself can't perceive that. We are all in play here. Nevertheless there is a depth of understanding that exceeds the common and shallow religious rhetoric that passes for theology in today's fallen churches. it blows the doors off it, really!