This is the true History of the Rapture which is Why its Not in The Word of God Its a lie of Men that plays into the Hands of Satan it was never in Gods Word The Woman that came up with this Later went Insane could it have been the Evil Spirits that were in her.The truth is NO PRE-Trib Rapture Theroy Ever existed before 1830 and a Mad Woman thougt she found it in verse's that anceintsalways said taught the oppisite of what she said a little twisting and Satan can convince the World of what God Never said. This is what Rapture Believers have Attributed to God. It is of Men Not God. Yet how many base their Faith around the Words of an Insane Women and Ignore what God tells Us because its easy. God did not waste half his book telling us of the future events so we could Ignore them and believe Theroys of Men.How many even realize the "Left Behind Series" is fiction its a story made by MenThere is only one return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and that is at the 7th trump the last trump after Antichrist after the Tribulation(2 Thess. 2:3) When all eyes will see Him coming and in the twinkling of an eye we all be changed into our New incoruptable bodies( 1 Cor. 15:52)that is the one and only time and not before that we will be gathered to the Lord this is the Word of God. PRETRIB RAPTURE DIEHARDS !by Dave MacPherson Since the 1970's stunning new data has been surfacing about the pretribulation rapture's long-covered-up beginnings in the 1800's. In recent years several persons associated with Dallas Theological Seminary (which had long been pretribized) have reportedly gone to Britain to check on my research sources and then write books opposing my claims. In 1990 an Ohio pastor told me that Dr. _____ _____, the most qualified DTS prof, traveled there and came back and wrote nothing! The pastor added that he and some others had a good laugh. But change was coming. In 1993 Chuck Swindoll, who became DTS president after John Walvoord, stated: "I'm not sure we're going to make dispensationalism [the chief attraction of which is a pretrib rapture] a part of our marquee as we talk about our school." When asked if the word "dispensationalism" would disappear, he answered: "It may and perhaps it should" ("Christianity Today," Oct. 25, 1993)! But a few diehards (with the stubbornness of Iraqi insurgents and New Orleans looters) keep on milking their cash cow while continuing to cover up and twist the following historical facts about their latter-day, cult-like belief: 1825: British preacher Edward Irving revealed that he had been teaching some of dispensationalism's key aspects as early as late 1825. (John Darby-exalter R. A. Huebner has never even claimed to find any original prophetic idea in Darby before late 1826!) 1827-1830: Darby was still posttrib during these years. His 1827 paper had him waiting for only the posttrib "restitution of all things." After discussing in 1828 the "unity" of the church, he looked for only the Rev. 19 coming in 1829 and 1830. 1830: During the spring a young woman in Scotland, Margaret Macdonald, declared that she had discovered in the Bible what had never been seen by others: a rapture of "church" members described as a "pre-Antichrist" (or pretrib) event. Her words: "one taken and the other left" before "THE WICKED [Antichrist] be revealed." She was a partial rapturist seeing only part of the "church" raptured and the rest of the "church" left on earth. When she wrote that the "trial of the Church is from Antichrist," she meant the part of the church not included in her pretrib rapture. Leading partial rapturists including Pember and Govett have always applied the word "church" to the ones "left behind." Robert Norton, Irvingite historian and on-scene witness of Margaret's utterances, wrote that Margaret was the "first" to privately teach pretrib. A September article in "The Morning Watch" (Irvingite journal) saw the "Philadelphia" church raptured before a "period of great tribulation" and the "Laodicea" church left on earth. Huebner's "Precious Truths" claimed that Philadelphia was seen raptured before only the "seventh vial" and not before "the great tribulation" even though the article writer added twice on following pages that this "period" was indeed "the great tribulation"! In the previous (June) issue the same writer had seen Philadelphia on earth until the final posttrib advent. In between these two issues, TMW writers had visited Margaret who explained her new "revelation" which was soon reflected on TMW pages without giving her credit! In December a published article by Darby was still defending the posttrib view! 1833: British lawyer Robert Baxter, an ex-Irvingite, wrote that the pretrib "delusion first appeared in Scotland" before it began to be taught in London the following year. 1834: A Darby letter referred to the new pretrib rapture view, stated that "the thoughts are new," and advocated the subtle introduction of it by writing "it would not be well to have it so clear"! Darby also called it the "new wine." Others who knew that pretrib was then a new view included other Plymouth Brethren, Irvingites, Margaret, and later 19th century historians such as Margaret Oliphant who referred to "a new revelation" in 1830 in western Scotland where Margaret Macdonald lived. 1837: Years after Darby supposedly had derived a distinction (or separation) between the "church" and "Israel," his 1837 article saw the church "going in with Him to the marriage, to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews"! 1839: The first year Darby was clearly pretrib. His pretrib basis then (and during the next three decades) was Rev. 12:5's "man child" that is "caught up." But this "new" Darby teaching was actually a plagiarism of Edward Irving who had been using this verse for the same (pretrib) purpose since 1831! 1843: In a letter written from Switzerland, Darby referred to "the dissemination of truth and blessing...thus spreading on the right hand and on the left, without knowing whence it came or how it sprung up all of a sudden...." Here he gloated that others didn't know "whence" pretrib came or that he had advocated the subtle sneaking of the new pretrib view into existing groups (see "1834" above)! 1853: Darby's book "The Irrationalism of Infidelity" recalled his visit to Margaret Macdonald and her brothers in mid-1830. He remembered 23 minor details but carefully omitted the most important one: Margaret's teaching of a coming of Christ that would exempt believers from the great tribulation "judgments"----a detail that all others who visited her and then wrote accounts could easily remember! (It's obvious that Todd Strandberg's mother didn't soap his mouth enough because even though he knows better after the airing of "Open Letter to Todd Strandberg" on the internet, his falsehood-packed "Margaret MacDonald Who?" article on his "Rapture Ready" site continues to pollute minds by stating that I "have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision"!) 1855: An article by eminent Brethren scholar S. P. Tregelles tied "Judaisers" to pretrib. But in an 1864 book he tied "Irving's Church" to pretrib. Both Huebner and Walvoord claimed that Tregelles contradicted himself, and Huebner charged Tregelles with "untruth and slander." But even William Kelly, Darby's editor, saw no contradiction and wrote, concerning "Judaising," that "nowhere is this so patent as in Irvingism"! 1861: Robert Norton, medical doctor and Irvingite, wrote that the "true origin" of pretrib had been "hidden and misrepresented." (This was about the time that Kelly was working towards the goal of elevating Darby and giving the false impression that Darby should be credited with the pretrib view.) Several pages later, in the same book, Norton revealed Margaret as the true originator of pretrib. 1863: In his "Five Letters" leading Brethren scholar Tregelles wrote that some Brethren had been unscrupulously issuing tracts by the thousands in which they changed the "words and doctrines" of "the Reformers and others" to give the impression that those ancient writers had actually been teaching the novel doctrines that some Darbyist Brethren were then circulating in the 1800's! 1864: Brethren scholar Tregelles charged fellow Brethren with changing even the words in ancient hymns: "Sometimes from a hymn being altered, writers appear to set forth a secret rapture of which they had never heard, or against which they have protested." I should add that in an 1865 letter Darby asked his editor to preserve the newer (pretrib) hymns and "correct the others," that is, the older (posttrib) ones! 1860's: From the 1860's to the 1880's William Kelly, editor of Darby's works, was busy putting together some volumes known as "The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby." Opposition to Darbyism had been increasing and Kelly was determined to fight it and continue to exalt Darby. His goal was to present a Darby that was prophetically "mature" long before he actually matured. He achieved this dishonesty with misleading words in brackets inside sentences in Darby's early works, and with footnotes that he "borrowed" from Darby's much later works when he was obviously more developed! Darby even gave this deviousness his blessing. In an 1865 letter to Kelly he wrote: "I should think that some of the Notes would require some revising....Even the sermons contain things I should not accept...." Kelly even flaunted his shameful manipulation in a footnote to Darby's 1830 article; the note said that "it was not worth while either suppressing or changing it." Interestingly, since the Irvingites were clear (and clearly first) when it came to public pretrib teaching, they didn't need later "fixers" to dishonestly correct their original statements! 1872: In an article in "The Princeton Review," Thomas Croskery of Ireland listed beliefs of the Plymouth Brethren including these: "That the moral law is of no use at all to believers" and "that believers have nothing to do in the way of keeping themselves from sin for God must look to them if He will...." He said that "Mr. Darby" pursues his opponents"with a virulence that has no parallel in the history of religious controversy." 1877: A medical doctor, James Carson, wrote that "the Darbyites have managed to cloak their opinions by using language in a Jesuitical sense...." He added: "Unless a person makes himself properly acquainted with the opinions" of Darbyites and argues "with the utmost precision on every point...it is impossible to manage such wily and slippery customers." 1879: A later work by Thomas Croskery declared that "Brethrenite doctrine...clearly tends to immorality." He then quoted Darby's editor, William Kelly, who stated: "I am no longer, as a Christian man, having to do with the responsibility that attaches to mortal man, but am passed now into a new state, even while I am in the world." Rev. Frederick Whitfield spoke of "the flagrant immoralities among the Plymouth Brethren" while James Grant commented: "Darbyism is the most selfish religious system with which I am acquainted." 1880: William Reid's work on Brethrenism revealed that "no other sect was, perhaps, ever so fruitful of divisions" and referred to "the novel doctrines propounded by some of its leaders." He quoted Lord Congleton, a leading Brethren member, who asked: "Have you tried these Brethren ----the Darbyites?....They are false in what they say of their brethren, they are false in doctrine, and they are false in their walk." And Henry Craik, a colleague of George Muller, was also quoted: "The truth is, Brethrenism as such, is broken to pieces. By pretending to be wiser, holier, more spiritual, more enlightened, than all other Christians; by rash and unprofitable intrusions into things not revealed; by making mysticism and eccentricity the test of spiritual life and depth; by preferring a dreamy and imaginative theology to the solid food of the Word of God...." (Leading Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon's 1967 book "The Origins of the Brethren," p. 253, quoted earlier Brethren member Lord Congleton who was "disgusted with...the falseness" of Darby's narratives. Rowdon also quoted a historian of the Brethren, W. B. Neatby, who wrote that "the time-honoured method of single combat" was as good a method as any "to elicit the truth" from Darby!) 1880's: In 1880, a year after his Christian conversion, C. I. Scofield was in the St. Louis jail for forgery because he'd stolen his mother-in-law's life savings in a real estate scam. In 1883 his first wife divorced him (for desertion) and he remarried three months later. Although he had no formal theological training, he began putting a non-conferred "D.D." after his name in the 1890's. In 1899, when he preached D. L. Moody's funeral sermon, he still owed thousands of dollars that he had stolen from acquaintances 20 years earlier. (In 1921 he advised his daughter, who then had financial problems, to pray to an ancient Catholic saint; at the same time his Scofield Bible, p. 1346, was predicting a future reign of "apostate Christendom, headed up under the Papacy"!) 1889: Aware that for 60 years the leading historians----whether Brethren or Irvingite----had been crediting someone in Irving's circle (and not Darby's circle!) with the pretrib rapture, Darby's editor William Kelly embarked on a sinister plan to discredit the Irvingites (and their female inspiration) and belatedly (and falsely) give credit for pretrib to Darby. He achieved this in 1889-1890 in a series of articles in his own British journal while analyzing the Irvingites in a supposedly fair and honest manner. Let's see a few of the many examples of his clever dishonesty: When quoting early Irvingites like Baxter and Norton, Kelly would consistently skip over their clear pretrib teaching but quote just before and after it! And he was a change artist. When Irvingites would write about their pretrib "rapture," Kelly loved to water it down into only their belief in the "Second Coming"! If the Irvingites expressed their belief in an imminent pretrib catching up, Kelly revised it into their "constantly to be expected Lord"! When Irving's followers hoped to escape, by rapture, the coming "tribulation," their "tribulation" was changed by Kelly into only "corrupt or apostate evils"! My 300-page book "The Rapture Plot" has 16 pages (!) of glaring specimens of short quotes exhibiting Kelly's shameful revisions of Irvingite doctrine! 1918: A prophetic book by E. P. Cachemaille discussed the pretrib origin, tied it to the 1830's, then added: "There has since been much scheming to give the doctrine a reputable origin, scheming by those who did not know the original facts, not being contemporaries of Dr. Tregelles." 1942: Noted prophecy teacher H. A. Ironside, who had a Brethren background, dared to assert, minus evidence, that what early Brethren taught re the rapture was "so contrary" to what the Irvingites had been teaching, adding that no links had existed between the two groups! 1960: After mentioning that the claim that Darby originated pretrib "is certainly open to question," evangelical scholar Clarence Bass wrote: "More probably, however, its origin can be traced through the Irvingite movement." But he failed to elaborate, evidently aware that he would be opening a can of you-know-what! 1973: Darby worshiper R. A. Huebner wrote that "The Irvingites (1828-1834) never held the pretribulation rapture or any 'any-moment' views." He was aware that many couldn't know how close he had repeatedly come to clear pretrib teaching by Irvingites and then had covered up everything while using the same devious tactics his inspiration William Kelly had used a century earlier while analyzing the same Irvingites! My "Plot" book has a 31-page chapter of many quotes from the earliest Irvingites showing that they repeatedly and clearly taught pretrib as well as imminence. For example, in 1832 the Irvingite journal said that "some" will be "left in the great tribulation...after the translation of the saints." We've already seen clear pretribism in the Sep., 1830 issue of the Irvingite journal. It's bad enough that Huebner (who never attended seminary, college, or even Bible school) has mind-poisoned his tiny circle of Darby-idolizers, but disastrous that pretrib leaders like Walvoord, Ryrie, LaHaye, and Ice were apparently "too busy" to check Huebner's sources and later on too proud to admit they'd been taken in by him! The parallels between Huebner and his two inspirations, Darby and Kelly, are astounding. Like them, he easily applies "demon" to opponents and their beliefs. Like them, he exaggerates and even purposely muddies up Darby's earliest pretrib development and Darby's later reminiscences. And like them, he can deftly dance around pretrib "cobras" in Irvingism (and its female inspiration) without getting bitten! In his 1973 book, Huebner had 95 copying errors when quoting others including pretrib leaders! (For more shocks on the internet, type in "Humbug Huebner.") 1989: Thomas Ice, one of the biggest pretrib diehards, doesn't have favorites when he discusses the pretrib origin; he can use deviousness as well as sloppiness. When he reproduced Margaret's short "revelation" account he somehow left out 48 words! As if his carelessness wasn't bad enough, his reproduction also included four distinctive errors that Hal Lindsey had made in his own reproduction of it in 1983----what Ice chose to do instead of going to the original 19th century sources! (See my internet piece "Thomas Ice - Hired Gun" if you are shockproof.) 1990: A year after his "rapture" of 48 words from Margaret's handwritten "revelation" account, Ice was elevated all the way up to Dallas Seminary's journal which published his article on pretrib history. In it he had some copying errors when quoting John Bray, Huebner, and Walvoord. Even worse, when he quoted the same Margaret Macdonald account, he skipped right over what he knew was her main point (a catching up of church members just before the Antichrist is revealed) even though he quoted shortly before and after it! And when quoting present-day Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon, he used an ellipsis to cover up Rowdon's evidence in his 1967 book that Irvingite development preceded Darby's! 1991: After many objective, no-axe-to-grind scholars had publicly endorsed my research (which emphasized Margaret, the Irvingites, and 1830), R. A. Huebner, aware of the same objective scholarship and determined to negate it, came out with a book in which he claimed to find Darby teaching pretrib in 1827----that is, three years before Margaret etc. But halfway through his book (which had more than 250 copying errors!), he admitted that his 1827 "proof" could refer to something completely different! Nevertheless, diehard Thomas Ice, after admitting to me that he was indeed aware of Huebner's change, continues to declare publicly that Huebner's 1991 book "proves" that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827! 1992: When Tim LaHaye's "No Fear of the Storm" reproduced Margaret's short account, he "left behind" 48 words----the same 48 words that Ice had left out in 1989! In the same book LaHaye made 84 other copying errors when discussing pretrib beginnings! Although he had a whole chapter focusing on my origin research, un-scholar LaHaye didn't list any of my books in footnotes or bibliography which kept readers from being able to find out what I had actually written! And LaHaye based his analysis on inaccurate secondhand sources and also made many copying errors when quoting them. For many years Tim and Beverly LaHaye's "conservative" organizations have raked in millions of dollars while telling folks to vote for only "moral" political candidates, and while appearing to be very pro-family and anti-gay. What they haven't revealed is that their son Lee LaHaye has long been the Chief Financial Officer of Concerned Women for America and that Lee is openly gay ! Can we be sure that "Left Behind" Tim isn't just as hypocritical with his pro-pretrib stance? (If you're man or woman enough, warm up your computer and type in "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "LaHaye's Temperament," "Tim LaHaye's gay son," "God to Same-Sexers: Hurry Up," and "Thieves' Marketing"----for starters!) 2005: In the August "Pre-Trib Perspectives" Thomas Ice again had the audacity to claim that the late Prof. Paul Alexander saw a "pretribulational translation" in Pseudo-Ephraem's now famous Medieval sermon. But Ice has known since 1995 that Alexander's 1985 book has textual as well as outline summaries of P-E's chronological order of endtime events----both summaries showing only one final coming of Christ that follows the great tribulation and not even a hint of a pretrib coming in either summary! Is it possible that Ice knows more than the professor whose book somehow inspired one of the desperate pretrib diehards? As Eph. 4:14 puts it, Ice knows how to "lie in wait to deceive." And lie and lie! (See my internet paper "Deceiving and Being Deceived" and discover the calculated dishonesty in the Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards claims plus other dishonesty including massive plagiarism in some of today's leading pretrib diehards! Type in my name and see all of my internet items. Since Ice and LaHaye are associated with the Pre-Trib Research Center which has its own site, you may feel inspired to write them, ask them some blunt questions, and even send them a copy of this paper.) PS - You can win $1000.00 if you can prove that I have ever covered up or watered down any crucial aspect of pretrib rapture history! If you would like to obtain my No. 1 book on pretrib history entitled "The Rapture Plot" which expands the info in this paper and has much other documentation, call 800.643.4645.http://poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Diehards.html
History of Pre-Trib Rapture
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This is the true History of the Rapture which is Why its Not in The Word of God Its a lie of Men that plays into the Hands of Satan it was never in Gods Word The Woman that came up with this Later went Insane could it have been the Evil Spirits that were in her.The truth is NO PRE-Trib Rapture Theroy Ever existed before 1830 and a Mad Woman thougt she found it in verse's that anceintsalways said taught the oppisite of what she said a little twisting and Satan can convince the World of what God Never said. This is what Rapture Believers have Attributed to God. It is of Men Not God. Yet how many base their Faith around the Words of an Insane Women and Ignore what God tells Us because its easy. God did not waste half his book telling us of the future events so we could Ignore them and believe Theroys of Men.How many even realize the "Left Behind Series" is fiction its a story made by MenThere is only one return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and that is at the 7th trump the last trump after Antichrist after the Tribulation(2 Thess. 2:3) When all eyes will see Him coming and in the twinkling of an eye we all be changed into our New incoruptable bodies( 1 Cor. 15:52)that is the one and only time and not before that we will be gathered to the Lord this is the Word of God. PRETRIB RAPTURE DIEHARDS !by Dave MacPherson Since the 1970's stunning new data has been surfacing about the pretribulation rapture's long-covered-up beginnings in the 1800's. In recent years several persons associated with Dallas Theological Seminary (which had long been pretribized) have reportedly gone to Britain to check on my research sources and then write books opposing my claims. In 1990 an Ohio pastor told me that Dr. _____ _____, the most qualified DTS prof, traveled there and came back and wrote nothing! The pastor added that he and some others had a good laugh. But change was coming. In 1993 Chuck Swindoll, who became DTS president after John Walvoord, stated: "I'm not sure we're going to make dispensationalism [the chief attraction of which is a pretrib rapture] a part of our marquee as we talk about our school." When asked if the word "dispensationalism" would disappear, he answered: "It may and perhaps it should" ("Christianity Today," Oct. 25, 1993)! But a few diehards (with the stubbornness of Iraqi insurgents and New Orleans looters) keep on milking their cash cow while continuing to cover up and twist the following historical facts about their latter-day, cult-like belief: 1825: British preacher Edward Irving revealed that he had been teaching some of dispensationalism's key aspects as early as late 1825. (John Darby-exalter R. A. Huebner has never even claimed to find any original prophetic idea in Darby before late 1826!) 1827-1830: Darby was still posttrib during these years. His 1827 paper had him waiting for only the posttrib "restitution of all things." After discussing in 1828 the "unity" of the church, he looked for only the Rev. 19 coming in 1829 and 1830. 1830: During the spring a young woman in Scotland, Margaret Macdonald, declared that she had discovered in the Bible what had never been seen by others: a rapture of "church" members described as a "pre-Antichrist" (or pretrib) event. Her words: "one taken and the other left" before "THE WICKED [Antichrist] be revealed." She was a partial rapturist seeing only part of the "church" raptured and the rest of the "church" left on earth. When she wrote that the "trial of the Church is from Antichrist," she meant the part of the church not included in her pretrib rapture. Leading partial rapturists including Pember and Govett have always applied the word "church" to the ones "left behind." Robert Norton, Irvingite historian and on-scene witness of Margaret's utterances, wrote that Margaret was the "first" to privately teach pretrib. A September article in "The Morning Watch" (Irvingite journal) saw the "Philadelphia" church raptured before a "period of great tribulation" and the "Laodicea" church left on earth. Huebner's "Precious Truths" claimed that Philadelphia was seen raptured before only the "seventh vial" and not before "the great tribulation" even though the article writer added twice on following pages that this "period" was indeed "the great tribulation"! In the previous (June) issue the same writer had seen Philadelphia on earth until the final posttrib advent. In between these two issues, TMW writers had visited Margaret who explained her new "revelation" which was soon reflected on TMW pages without giving her credit! In December a published article by Darby was still defending the posttrib view! 1833: British lawyer Robert Baxter, an ex-Irvingite, wrote that the pretrib "delusion first appeared in Scotland" before it began to be taught in London the following year. 1834: A Darby letter referred to the new pretrib rapture view, stated that "the thoughts are new," and advocated the subtle introduction of it by writing "it would not be well to have it so clear"! Darby also called it the "new wine." Others who knew that pretrib was then a new view included other Plymouth Brethren, Irvingites, Margaret, and later 19th century historians such as Margaret Oliphant who referred to "a new revelation" in 1830 in western Scotland where Margaret Macdonald lived. 1837: Years after Darby supposedly had derived a distinction (or separation) between the "church" and "Israel," his 1837 article saw the church "going in with Him to the marriage, to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews"! 1839: The first year Darby was clearly pretrib. His pretrib basis then (and during the next three decades) was Rev. 12:5's "man child" that is "caught up." But this "new" Darby teaching was actually a plagiarism of Edward Irving who had been using this verse for the same (pretrib) purpose since 1831! 1843: In a letter written from Switzerland, Darby referred to "the dissemination of truth and blessing...thus spreading on the right hand and on the left, without knowing whence it came or how it sprung up all of a sudden...." Here he gloated that others didn't know "whence" pretrib came or that he had advocated the subtle sneaking of the new pretrib view into existing groups (see "1834" above)! 1853: Darby's book "The Irrationalism of Infidelity" recalled his visit to Margaret Macdonald and her brothers in mid-1830. He remembered 23 minor details but carefully omitted the most important one: Margaret's teaching of a coming of Christ that would exempt believers from the great tribulation "judgments"----a detail that all others who visited her and then wrote accounts could easily remember! (It's obvious that Todd Strandberg's mother didn't soap his mouth enough because even though he knows better after the airing of "Open Letter to Todd Strandberg" on the internet, his falsehood-packed "Margaret MacDonald Who?" article on his "Rapture Ready" site continues to pollute minds by stating that I "have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision"!) 1855: An article by eminent Brethren scholar S. P. Tregelles tied "Judaisers" to pretrib. But in an 1864 book he tied "Irving's Church" to pretrib. Both Huebner and Walvoord claimed that Tregelles contradicted himself, and Huebner charged Tregelles with "untruth and slander." But even William Kelly, Darby's editor, saw no contradiction and wrote, concerning "Judaising," that "nowhere is this so patent as in Irvingism"! 1861: Robert Norton, medical doctor and Irvingite, wrote that the "true origin" of pretrib had been "hidden and misrepresented." (This was about the time that Kelly was working towards the goal of elevating Darby and giving the false impression that Darby should be credited with the pretrib view.) Several pages later, in the same book, Norton revealed Margaret as the true originator of pretrib. 1863: In his "Five Letters" leading Brethren scholar Tregelles wrote that some Brethren had been unscrupulously issuing tracts by the thousands in which they changed the "words and doctrines" of "the Reformers and others" to give the impression that those ancient writers had actually been teaching the novel doctrines that some Darbyist Brethren were then circulating in the 1800's! 1864: Brethren scholar Tregelles charged fellow Brethren with changing even the words in ancient hymns: "Sometimes from a hymn being altered, writers appear to set forth a secret rapture of which they had never heard, or against which they have protested." I should add that in an 1865 letter Darby asked his editor to preserve the newer (pretrib) hymns and "correct the others," that is, the older (posttrib) ones! 1860's: From the 1860's to the 1880's William Kelly, editor of Darby's works, was busy putting together some volumes known as "The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby." Opposition to Darbyism had been increasing and Kelly was determined to fight it and continue to exalt Darby. His goal was to present a Darby that was prophetically "mature" long before he actually matured. He achieved this dishonesty with misleading words in brackets inside sentences in Darby's early works, and with footnotes that he "borrowed" from Darby's much later works when he was obviously more developed! Darby even gave this deviousness his blessing. In an 1865 letter to Kelly he wrote: "I should think that some of the Notes would require some revising....Even the sermons contain things I should not accept...." Kelly even flaunted his shameful manipulation in a footnote to Darby's 1830 article; the note said that "it was not worth while either suppressing or changing it." Interestingly, since the Irvingites were clear (and clearly first) when it came to public pretrib teaching, they didn't need later "fixers" to dishonestly correct their original statements! 1872: In an article in "The Princeton Review," Thomas Croskery of Ireland listed beliefs of the Plymouth Brethren including these: "That the moral law is of no use at all to believers" and "that believers have nothing to do in the way of keeping themselves from sin for God must look to them if He will...." He said that "Mr. Darby" pursues his opponents"with a virulence that has no parallel in the history of religious controversy." 1877: A medical doctor, James Carson, wrote that "the Darbyites have managed to cloak their opinions by using language in a Jesuitical sense...." He added: "Unless a person makes himself properly acquainted with the opinions" of Darbyites and argues "with the utmost precision on every point...it is impossible to manage such wily and slippery customers." 1879: A later work by Thomas Croskery declared that "Brethrenite doctrine...clearly tends to immorality." He then quoted Darby's editor, William Kelly, who stated: "I am no longer, as a Christian man, having to do with the responsibility that attaches to mortal man, but am passed now into a new state, even while I am in the world." Rev. Frederick Whitfield spoke of "the flagrant immoralities among the Plymouth Brethren" while James Grant commented: "Darbyism is the most selfish religious system with which I am acquainted." 1880: William Reid's work on Brethrenism revealed that "no other sect was, perhaps, ever so fruitful of divisions" and referred to "the novel doctrines propounded by some of its leaders." He quoted Lord Congleton, a leading Brethren member, who asked: "Have you tried these Brethren ----the Darbyites?....They are false in what they say of their brethren, they are false in doctrine, and they are false in their walk." And Henry Craik, a colleague of George Muller, was also quoted: "The truth is, Brethrenism as such, is broken to pieces. By pretending to be wiser, holier, more spiritual, more enlightened, than all other Christians; by rash and unprofitable intrusions into things not revealed; by making mysticism and eccentricity the test of spiritual life and depth; by preferring a dreamy and imaginative theology to the solid food of the Word of God...." (Leading Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon's 1967 book "The Origins of the Brethren," p. 253, quoted earlier Brethren member Lord Congleton who was "disgusted with...the falseness" of Darby's narratives. Rowdon also quoted a historian of the Brethren, W. B. Neatby, who wrote that "the time-honoured method of single combat" was as good a method as any "to elicit the truth" from Darby!) 1880's: In 1880, a year after his Christian conversion, C. I. Scofield was in the St. Louis jail for forgery because he'd stolen his mother-in-law's life savings in a real estate scam. In 1883 his first wife divorced him (for desertion) and he remarried three months later. Although he had no formal theological training, he began putting a non-conferred "D.D." after his name in the 1890's. In 1899, when he preached D. L. Moody's funeral sermon, he still owed thousands of dollars that he had stolen from acquaintances 20 years earlier. (In 1921 he advised his daughter, who then had financial problems, to pray to an ancient Catholic saint; at the same time his Scofield Bible, p. 1346, was predicting a future reign of "apostate Christendom, headed up under the Papacy"!) 1889: Aware that for 60 years the leading historians----whether Brethren or Irvingite----had been crediting someone in Irving's circle (and not Darby's circle!) with the pretrib rapture, Darby's editor William Kelly embarked on a sinister plan to discredit the Irvingites (and their female inspiration) and belatedly (and falsely) give credit for pretrib to Darby. He achieved this in 1889-1890 in a series of articles in his own British journal while analyzing the Irvingites in a supposedly fair and honest manner. Let's see a few of the many examples of his clever dishonesty: When quoting early Irvingites like Baxter and Norton, Kelly would consistently skip over their clear pretrib teaching but quote just before and after it! And he was a change artist. When Irvingites would write about their pretrib "rapture," Kelly loved to water it down into only their belief in the "Second Coming"! If the Irvingites expressed their belief in an imminent pretrib catching up, Kelly revised it into their "constantly to be expected Lord"! When Irving's followers hoped to escape, by rapture, the coming "tribulation," their "tribulation" was changed by Kelly into only "corrupt or apostate evils"! My 300-page book "The Rapture Plot" has 16 pages (!) of glaring specimens of short quotes exhibiting Kelly's shameful revisions of Irvingite doctrine! 1918: A prophetic book by E. P. Cachemaille discussed the pretrib origin, tied it to the 1830's, then added: "There has since been much scheming to give the doctrine a reputable origin, scheming by those who did not know the original facts, not being contemporaries of Dr. Tregelles." 1942: Noted prophecy teacher H. A. Ironside, who had a Brethren background, dared to assert, minus evidence, that what early Brethren taught re the rapture was "so contrary" to what the Irvingites had been teaching, adding that no links had existed between the two groups! 1960: After mentioning that the claim that Darby originated pretrib "is certainly open to question," evangelical scholar Clarence Bass wrote: "More probably, however, its origin can be traced through the Irvingite movement." But he failed to elaborate, evidently aware that he would be opening a can of you-know-what! 1973: Darby worshiper R. A. Huebner wrote that "The Irvingites (1828-1834) never held the pretribulation rapture or any 'any-moment' views." He was aware that many couldn't know how close he had repeatedly come to clear pretrib teaching by Irvingites and then had covered up everything while using the same devious tactics his inspiration William Kelly had used a century earlier while analyzing the same Irvingites! My "Plot" book has a 31-page chapter of many quotes from the earliest Irvingites showing that they repeatedly and clearly taught pretrib as well as imminence. For example, in 1832 the Irvingite journal said that "some" will be "left in the great tribulation...after the translation of the saints." We've already seen clear pretribism in the Sep., 1830 issue of the Irvingite journal. It's bad enough that Huebner (who never attended seminary, college, or even Bible school) has mind-poisoned his tiny circle of Darby-idolizers, but disastrous that pretrib leaders like Walvoord, Ryrie, LaHaye, and Ice were apparently "too busy" to check Huebner's sources and later on too proud to admit they'd been taken in by him! The parallels between Huebner and his two inspirations, Darby and Kelly, are astounding. Like them, he easily applies "demon" to opponents and their beliefs. Like them, he exaggerates and even purposely muddies up Darby's earliest pretrib development and Darby's later reminiscences. And like them, he can deftly dance around pretrib "cobras" in Irvingism (and its female inspiration) without getting bitten! In his 1973 book, Huebner had 95 copying errors when quoting others including pretrib leaders! (For more shocks on the internet, type in "Humbug Huebner.") 1989: Thomas Ice, one of the biggest pretrib diehards, doesn't have favorites when he discusses the pretrib origin; he can use deviousness as well as sloppiness. When he reproduced Margaret's short "revelation" account he somehow left out 48 words! As if his carelessness wasn't bad enough, his reproduction also included four distinctive errors that Hal Lindsey had made in his own reproduction of it in 1983----what Ice chose to do instead of going to the original 19th century sources! (See my internet piece "Thomas Ice - Hired Gun" if you are shockproof.) 1990: A year after his "rapture" of 48 words from Margaret's handwritten "revelation" account, Ice was elevated all the way up to Dallas Seminary's journal which published his article on pretrib history. In it he had some copying errors when quoting John Bray, Huebner, and Walvoord. Even worse, when he quoted the same Margaret Macdonald account, he skipped right over what he knew was her main point (a catching up of church members just before the Antichrist is revealed) even though he quoted shortly before and after it! And when quoting present-day Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon, he used an ellipsis to cover up Rowdon's evidence in his 1967 book that Irvingite development preceded Darby's! 1991: After many objective, no-axe-to-grind scholars had publicly endorsed my research (which emphasized Margaret, the Irvingites, and 1830), R. A. Huebner, aware of the same objective scholarship and determined to negate it, came out with a book in which he claimed to find Darby teaching pretrib in 1827----that is, three years before Margaret etc. But halfway through his book (which had more than 250 copying errors!), he admitted that his 1827 "proof" could refer to something completely different! Nevertheless, diehard Thomas Ice, after admitting to me that he was indeed aware of Huebner's change, continues to declare publicly that Huebner's 1991 book "proves" that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827! 1992: When Tim LaHaye's "No Fear of the Storm" reproduced Margaret's short account, he "left behind" 48 words----the same 48 words that Ice had left out in 1989! In the same book LaHaye made 84 other copying errors when discussing pretrib beginnings! Although he had a whole chapter focusing on my origin research, un-scholar LaHaye didn't list any of my books in footnotes or bibliography which kept readers from being able to find out what I had actually written! And LaHaye based his analysis on inaccurate secondhand sources and also made many copying errors when quoting them. For many years Tim and Beverly LaHaye's "conservative" organizations have raked in millions of dollars while telling folks to vote for only "moral" political candidates, and while appearing to be very pro-family and anti-gay. What they haven't revealed is that their son Lee LaHaye has long been the Chief Financial Officer of Concerned Women for America and that Lee is openly gay ! Can we be sure that "Left Behind" Tim isn't just as hypocritical with his pro-pretrib stance? (If you're man or woman enough, warm up your computer and type in "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "LaHaye's Temperament," "Tim LaHaye's gay son," "God to Same-Sexers: Hurry Up," and "Thieves' Marketing"----for starters!) 2005: In the August "Pre-Trib Perspectives" Thomas Ice again had the audacity to claim that the late Prof. Paul Alexander saw a "pretribulational translation" in Pseudo-Ephraem's now famous Medieval sermon. But Ice has known since 1995 that Alexander's 1985 book has textual as well as outline summaries of P-E's chronological order of endtime events----both summaries showing only one final coming of Christ that follows the great tribulation and not even a hint of a pretrib coming in either summary! Is it possible that Ice knows more than the professor whose book somehow inspired one of the desperate pretrib diehards? As Eph. 4:14 puts it, Ice knows how to "lie in wait to deceive." And lie and lie! (See my internet paper "Deceiving and Being Deceived" and discover the calculated dishonesty in the Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards claims plus other dishonesty including massive plagiarism in some of today's leading pretrib diehards! Type in my name and see all of my internet items. Since Ice and LaHaye are associated with the Pre-Trib Research Center which has its own site, you may feel inspired to write them, ask them some blunt questions, and even send them a copy of this paper.) PS - You can win $1000.00 if you can prove that I have ever covered up or watered down any crucial aspect of pretrib rapture history! If you would like to obtain my No. 1 book on pretrib history entitled "The Rapture Plot" which expands the info in this paper and has much other documentation, call 800.643.4645.http://poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Diehards.html
Acording to the greek, The trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15; 52, is not the 7th trump, and has no conection with the trumpets in Rev 8.I have noticed that every false teachers always quote what "So and So" said, rather then what the Bible says. The reason being is because there is no Biblical evidence to back it up, unless they misquote, or take it out of its context. To say that the pre- tribulation rapture didn't exist before 1830 proves that these people don't know the Bible. They should read the Bible in the Holy Spirit, Not in first imaginations. also some people don't have a teachable spirit, They believe what they want, then when truth is revealed to them, They say, "That is wrong". instead of studying the Bible with an open mind, and a teachable spirit.if anyone wants to know what the Bible says on this subject, read my post on "Why Christians wont go through the tribulation". I give only what the Bible and the Greek says. By the way, the [Greek "Original"], has the rapture before the tribulation. your arguement is not with Pre-trib believers, but with God.
This is the true History of the Rapture which is Why its Not in The Word of God Its a lie of Men that plays into the Hands of Satan it was never in Gods Word The Woman that came up with this Later went Insane could it have been the Evil Spirits that were in her.The truth is NO PRE-Trib Rapture Theroy Ever existed before 1830 and a Mad Woman thougt she found it in verse's that anceintsalways said taught the oppisite of what she said a little twisting and Satan can convince the World of what God Never said. This is what Rapture Believers have Attributed to God. It is of Men Not God. Yet how many base their Faith around the Words of an Insane Women and Ignore what God tells Us because its easy. God did not waste half his book telling us of the future events so we could Ignore them and believe Theroys of Men.How many even realize the "Left Behind Series" is fiction its a story made by MenThere is only one return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and that is at the 7th trump the last trump after Antichrist after the Tribulation(2 Thess. 2:3) When all eyes will see Him coming and in the twinkling of an eye we all be changed into our New incoruptable bodies( 1 Cor. 15:52)that is the one and only time and not before that we will be gathered to the Lord this is the Word of God. PRETRIB RAPTURE DIEHARDS !by Dave MacPherson Since the 1970's stunning new data has been surfacing about the pretribulation rapture's long-covered-up beginnings in the 1800's. In recent years several persons associated with Dallas Theological Seminary (which had long been pretribized) have reportedly gone to Britain to check on my research sources and then write books opposing my claims. In 1990 an Ohio pastor told me that Dr. _____ _____, the most qualified DTS prof, traveled there and came back and wrote nothing! The pastor added that he and some others had a good laugh. But change was coming. In 1993 Chuck Swindoll, who became DTS president after John Walvoord, stated: "I'm not sure we're going to make dispensationalism [the chief attraction of which is a pretrib rapture] a part of our marquee as we talk about our school." When asked if the word "dispensationalism" would disappear, he answered: "It may and perhaps it should" ("Christianity Today," Oct. 25, 1993)! But a few diehards (with the stubbornness of Iraqi insurgents and New Orleans looters) keep on milking their cash cow while continuing to cover up and twist the following historical facts about their latter-day, cult-like belief: 1825: British preacher Edward Irving revealed that he had been teaching some of dispensationalism's key aspects as early as late 1825. (John Darby-exalter R. A. Huebner has never even claimed to find any original prophetic idea in Darby before late 1826!) 1827-1830: Darby was still posttrib during these years. His 1827 paper had him waiting for only the posttrib "restitution of all things." After discussing in 1828 the "unity" of the church, he looked for only the Rev. 19 coming in 1829 and 1830. 1830: During the spring a young woman in Scotland, Margaret Macdonald, declared that she had discovered in the Bible what had never been seen by others: a rapture of "church" members described as a "pre-Antichrist" (or pretrib) event. Her words: "one taken and the other left" before "THE WICKED [Antichrist] be revealed." She was a partial rapturist seeing only part of the "church" raptured and the rest of the "church" left on earth. When she wrote that the "trial of the Church is from Antichrist," she meant the part of the church not included in her pretrib rapture. Leading partial rapturists including Pember and Govett have always applied the word "church" to the ones "left behind." Robert Norton, Irvingite historian and on-scene witness of Margaret's utterances, wrote that Margaret was the "first" to privately teach pretrib. A September article in "The Morning Watch" (Irvingite journal) saw the "Philadelphia" church raptured before a "period of great tribulation" and the "Laodicea" church left on earth. Huebner's "Precious Truths" claimed that Philadelphia was seen raptured before only the "seventh vial" and not before "the great tribulation" even though the article writer added twice on following pages that this "period" was indeed "the great tribulation"! In the previous (June) issue the same writer had seen Philadelphia on earth until the final posttrib advent. In between these two issues, TMW writers had visited Margaret who explained her new "revelation" which was soon reflected on TMW pages without giving her credit! In December a published article by Darby was still defending the posttrib view! 1833: British lawyer Robert Baxter, an ex-Irvingite, wrote that the pretrib "delusion first appeared in Scotland" before it began to be taught in London the following year. 1834: A Darby letter referred to the new pretrib rapture view, stated that "the thoughts are new," and advocated the subtle introduction of it by writing "it would not be well to have it so clear"! Darby also called it the "new wine." Others who knew that pretrib was then a new view included other Plymouth Brethren, Irvingites, Margaret, and later 19th century historians such as Margaret Oliphant who referred to "a new revelation" in 1830 in western Scotland where Margaret Macdonald lived. 1837: Years after Darby supposedly had derived a distinction (or separation) between the "church" and "Israel," his 1837 article saw the church "going in with Him to the marriage, to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews"! 1839: The first year Darby was clearly pretrib. His pretrib basis then (and during the next three decades) was Rev. 12:5's "man child" that is "caught up." But this "new" Darby teaching was actually a plagiarism of Edward Irving who had been using this verse for the same (pretrib) purpose since 1831! 1843: In a letter written from Switzerland, Darby referred to "the dissemination of truth and blessing...thus spreading on the right hand and on the left, without knowing whence it came or how it sprung up all of a sudden...." Here he gloated that others didn't know "whence" pretrib came or that he had advocated the subtle sneaking of the new pretrib view into existing groups (see "1834" above)! 1853: Darby's book "The Irrationalism of Infidelity" recalled his visit to Margaret Macdonald and her brothers in mid-1830. He remembered 23 minor details but carefully omitted the most important one: Margaret's teaching of a coming of Christ that would exempt believers from the great tribulation "judgments"----a detail that all others who visited her and then wrote accounts could easily remember! (It's obvious that Todd Strandberg's mother didn't soap his mouth enough because even though he knows better after the airing of "Open Letter to Todd Strandberg" on the internet, his falsehood-packed "Margaret MacDonald Who?" article on his "Rapture Ready" site continues to pollute minds by stating that I "have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision"!) 1855: An article by eminent Brethren scholar S. P. Tregelles tied "Judaisers" to pretrib. But in an 1864 book he tied "Irving's Church" to pretrib. Both Huebner and Walvoord claimed that Tregelles contradicted himself, and Huebner charged Tregelles with "untruth and slander." But even William Kelly, Darby's editor, saw no contradiction and wrote, concerning "Judaising," that "nowhere is this so patent as in Irvingism"! 1861: Robert Norton, medical doctor and Irvingite, wrote that the "true origin" of pretrib had been "hidden and misrepresented." (This was about the time that Kelly was working towards the goal of elevating Darby and giving the false impression that Darby should be credited with the pretrib view.) Several pages later, in the same book, Norton revealed Margaret as the true originator of pretrib. 1863: In his "Five Letters" leading Brethren scholar Tregelles wrote that some Brethren had been unscrupulously issuing tracts by the thousands in which they changed the "words and doctrines" of "the Reformers and others" to give the impression that those ancient writers had actually been teaching the novel doctrines that some Darbyist Brethren were then circulating in the 1800's! 1864: Brethren scholar Tregelles charged fellow Brethren with changing even the words in ancient hymns: "Sometimes from a hymn being altered, writers appear to set forth a secret rapture of which they had never heard, or against which they have protested." I should add that in an 1865 letter Darby asked his editor to preserve the newer (pretrib) hymns and "correct the others," that is, the older (posttrib) ones! 1860's: From the 1860's to the 1880's William Kelly, editor of Darby's works, was busy putting together some volumes known as "The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby." Opposition to Darbyism had been increasing and Kelly was determined to fight it and continue to exalt Darby. His goal was to present a Darby that was prophetically "mature" long before he actually matured. He achieved this dishonesty with misleading words in brackets inside sentences in Darby's early works, and with footnotes that he "borrowed" from Darby's much later works when he was obviously more developed! Darby even gave this deviousness his blessing. In an 1865 letter to Kelly he wrote: "I should think that some of the Notes would require some revising....Even the sermons contain things I should not accept...." Kelly even flaunted his shameful manipulation in a footnote to Darby's 1830 article; the note said that "it was not worth while either suppressing or changing it." Interestingly, since the Irvingites were clear (and clearly first) when it came to public pretrib teaching, they didn't need later "fixers" to dishonestly correct their original statements! 1872: In an article in "The Princeton Review," Thomas Croskery of Ireland listed beliefs of the Plymouth Brethren including these: "That the moral law is of no use at all to believers" and "that believers have nothing to do in the way of keeping themselves from sin for God must look to them if He will...." He said that "Mr. Darby" pursues his opponents"with a virulence that has no parallel in the history of religious controversy." 1877: A medical doctor, James Carson, wrote that "the Darbyites have managed to cloak their opinions by using language in a Jesuitical sense...." He added: "Unless a person makes himself properly acquainted with the opinions" of Darbyites and argues "with the utmost precision on every point...it is impossible to manage such wily and slippery customers." 1879: A later work by Thomas Croskery declared that "Brethrenite doctrine...clearly tends to immorality." He then quoted Darby's editor, William Kelly, who stated: "I am no longer, as a Christian man, having to do with the responsibility that attaches to mortal man, but am passed now into a new state, even while I am in the world." Rev. Frederick Whitfield spoke of "the flagrant immoralities among the Plymouth Brethren" while James Grant commented: "Darbyism is the most selfish religious system with which I am acquainted." 1880: William Reid's work on Brethrenism revealed that "no other sect was, perhaps, ever so fruitful of divisions" and referred to "the novel doctrines propounded by some of its leaders." He quoted Lord Congleton, a leading Brethren member, who asked: "Have you tried these Brethren ----the Darbyites?....They are false in what they say of their brethren, they are false in doctrine, and they are false in their walk." And Henry Craik, a colleague of George Muller, was also quoted: "The truth is, Brethrenism as such, is broken to pieces. By pretending to be wiser, holier, more spiritual, more enlightened, than all other Christians; by rash and unprofitable intrusions into things not revealed; by making mysticism and eccentricity the test of spiritual life and depth; by preferring a dreamy and imaginative theology to the solid food of the Word of God...." (Leading Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon's 1967 book "The Origins of the Brethren," p. 253, quoted earlier Brethren member Lord Congleton who was "disgusted with...the falseness" of Darby's narratives. Rowdon also quoted a historian of the Brethren, W. B. Neatby, who wrote that "the time-honoured method of single combat" was as good a method as any "to elicit the truth" from Darby!) 1880's: In 1880, a year after his Christian conversion, C. I. Scofield was in the St. Louis jail for forgery because he'd stolen his mother-in-law's life savings in a real estate scam. In 1883 his first wife divorced him (for desertion) and he remarried three months later. Although he had no formal theological training, he began putting a non-conferred "D.D." after his name in the 1890's. In 1899, when he preached D. L. Moody's funeral sermon, he still owed thousands of dollars that he had stolen from acquaintances 20 years earlier. (In 1921 he advised his daughter, who then had financial problems, to pray to an ancient Catholic saint; at the same time his Scofield Bible, p. 1346, was predicting a future reign of "apostate Christendom, headed up under the Papacy"!) 1889: Aware that for 60 years the leading historians----whether Brethren or Irvingite----had been crediting someone in Irving's circle (and not Darby's circle!) with the pretrib rapture, Darby's editor William Kelly embarked on a sinister plan to discredit the Irvingites (and their female inspiration) and belatedly (and falsely) give credit for pretrib to Darby. He achieved this in 1889-1890 in a series of articles in his own British journal while analyzing the Irvingites in a supposedly fair and honest manner. Let's see a few of the many examples of his clever dishonesty: When quoting early Irvingites like Baxter and Norton, Kelly would consistently skip over their clear pretrib teaching but quote just before and after it! And he was a change artist. When Irvingites would write about their pretrib "rapture," Kelly loved to water it down into only their belief in the "Second Coming"! If the Irvingites expressed their belief in an imminent pretrib catching up, Kelly revised it into their "constantly to be expected Lord"! When Irving's followers hoped to escape, by rapture, the coming "tribulation," their "tribulation" was changed by Kelly into only "corrupt or apostate evils"! My 300-page book "The Rapture Plot" has 16 pages (!) of glaring specimens of short quotes exhibiting Kelly's shameful revisions of Irvingite doctrine! 1918: A prophetic book by E. P. Cachemaille discussed the pretrib origin, tied it to the 1830's, then added: "There has since been much scheming to give the doctrine a reputable origin, scheming by those who did not know the original facts, not being contemporaries of Dr. Tregelles." 1942: Noted prophecy teacher H. A. Ironside, who had a Brethren background, dared to assert, minus evidence, that what early Brethren taught re the rapture was "so contrary" to what the Irvingites had been teaching, adding that no links had existed between the two groups! 1960: After mentioning that the claim that Darby originated pretrib "is certainly open to question," evangelical scholar Clarence Bass wrote: "More probably, however, its origin can be traced through the Irvingite movement." But he failed to elaborate, evidently aware that he would be opening a can of you-know-what! 1973: Darby worshiper R. A. Huebner wrote that "The Irvingites (1828-1834) never held the pretribulation rapture or any 'any-moment' views." He was aware that many couldn't know how close he had repeatedly come to clear pretrib teaching by Irvingites and then had covered up everything while using the same devious tactics his inspiration William Kelly had used a century earlier while analyzing the same Irvingites! My "Plot" book has a 31-page chapter of many quotes from the earliest Irvingites showing that they repeatedly and clearly taught pretrib as well as imminence. For example, in 1832 the Irvingite journal said that "some" will be "left in the great tribulation...after the translation of the saints." We've already seen clear pretribism in the Sep., 1830 issue of the Irvingite journal. It's bad enough that Huebner (who never attended seminary, college, or even Bible school) has mind-poisoned his tiny circle of Darby-idolizers, but disastrous that pretrib leaders like Walvoord, Ryrie, LaHaye, and Ice were apparently "too busy" to check Huebner's sources and later on too proud to admit they'd been taken in by him! The parallels between Huebner and his two inspirations, Darby and Kelly, are astounding. Like them, he easily applies "demon" to opponents and their beliefs. Like them, he exaggerates and even purposely muddies up Darby's earliest pretrib development and Darby's later reminiscences. And like them, he can deftly dance around pretrib "cobras" in Irvingism (and its female inspiration) without getting bitten! In his 1973 book, Huebner had 95 copying errors when quoting others including pretrib leaders! (For more shocks on the internet, type in "Humbug Huebner.") 1989: Thomas Ice, one of the biggest pretrib diehards, doesn't have favorites when he discusses the pretrib origin; he can use deviousness as well as sloppiness. When he reproduced Margaret's short "revelation" account he somehow left out 48 words! As if his carelessness wasn't bad enough, his reproduction also included four distinctive errors that Hal Lindsey had made in his own reproduction of it in 1983----what Ice chose to do instead of going to the original 19th century sources! (See my internet piece "Thomas Ice - Hired Gun" if you are shockproof.) 1990: A year after his "rapture" of 48 words from Margaret's handwritten "revelation" account, Ice was elevated all the way up to Dallas Seminary's journal which published his article on pretrib history. In it he had some copying errors when quoting John Bray, Huebner, and Walvoord. Even worse, when he quoted the same Margaret Macdonald account, he skipped right over what he knew was her main point (a catching up of church members just before the Antichrist is revealed) even though he quoted shortly before and after it! And when quoting present-day Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon, he used an ellipsis to cover up Rowdon's evidence in his 1967 book that Irvingite development preceded Darby's! 1991: After many objective, no-axe-to-grind scholars had publicly endorsed my research (which emphasized Margaret, the Irvingites, and 1830), R. A. Huebner, aware of the same objective scholarship and determined to negate it, came out with a book in which he claimed to find Darby teaching pretrib in 1827----that is, three years before Margaret etc. But halfway through his book (which had more than 250 copying errors!), he admitted that his 1827 "proof" could refer to something completely different! Nevertheless, diehard Thomas Ice, after admitting to me that he was indeed aware of Huebner's change, continues to declare publicly that Huebner's 1991 book "proves" that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827! 1992: When Tim LaHaye's "No Fear of the Storm" reproduced Margaret's short account, he "left behind" 48 words----the same 48 words that Ice had left out in 1989! In the same book LaHaye made 84 other copying errors when discussing pretrib beginnings! Although he had a whole chapter focusing on my origin research, un-scholar LaHaye didn't list any of my books in footnotes or bibliography which kept readers from being able to find out what I had actually written! And LaHaye based his analysis on inaccurate secondhand sources and also made many copying errors when quoting them. For many years Tim and Beverly LaHaye's "conservative" organizations have raked in millions of dollars while telling folks to vote for only "moral" political candidates, and while appearing to be very pro-family and anti-gay. What they haven't revealed is that their son Lee LaHaye has long been the Chief Financial Officer of Concerned Women for America and that Lee is openly gay ! Can we be sure that "Left Behind" Tim isn't just as hypocritical with his pro-pretrib stance? (If you're man or woman enough, warm up your computer and type in "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "LaHaye's Temperament," "Tim LaHaye's gay son," "God to Same-Sexers: Hurry Up," and "Thieves' Marketing"----for starters!) 2005: In the August "Pre-Trib Perspectives" Thomas Ice again had the audacity to claim that the late Prof. Paul Alexander saw a "pretribulational translation" in Pseudo-Ephraem's now famous Medieval sermon. But Ice has known since 1995 that Alexander's 1985 book has textual as well as outline summaries of P-E's chronological order of endtime events----both summaries showing only one final coming of Christ that follows the great tribulation and not even a hint of a pretrib coming in either summary! Is it possible that Ice knows more than the professor whose book somehow inspired one of the desperate pretrib diehards? As Eph. 4:14 puts it, Ice knows how to "lie in wait to deceive." And lie and lie! (See my internet paper "Deceiving and Being Deceived" and discover the calculated dishonesty in the Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards claims plus other dishonesty including massive plagiarism in some of today's leading pretrib diehards! Type in my name and see all of my internet items. Since Ice and LaHaye are associated with the Pre-Trib Research Center which has its own site, you may feel inspired to write them, ask them some blunt questions, and even send them a copy of this paper.) PS - You can win $1000.00 if you can prove that I have ever covered up or watered down any crucial aspect of pretrib rapture history! If you would like to obtain my No. 1 book on pretrib history entitled "The Rapture Plot" which expands the info in this paper and has much other documentation, call 800.643.4645.http://poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Diehards.html
Acording to the greek, The trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15; 52, is not the 7th trump, and has no conection with the trumpets in Rev 8.I have noticed that every false teachers always quote what "So and So" said, rather then what the Bible says. The reason being is because there is no Biblical evidence to back it up, unless they misquote, or take it out of its context. To say that the pre- tribulation rapture didn't exist before 1830 proves that these people don't know the Bible. They should read the Bible in the Holy Spirit, Not in first imaginations. also some people don't have a teachable spirit, They believe what they want, then when truth is revealed to them, They say, "That is wrong". instead of studying the Bible with an open mind, and a teachable spirit.if anyone wants to know what the Bible says on this subject, read my post on "Why Christians wont go through the tribulation". I give only what the Bible and the Greek says. By the way, the [Greek "Original"], has the rapture before the tribulation. your arguement is not with Pre-trib believers, but with God.
AMEN ALAN. If the Rapture Doctrine was near the 1700-1800s, Then was did Paul Write a 2nd Epistle to the Thessalonians telling them that Christ has not came yet, although many in 1st Thessalonians were claiming so. Paul Hope manytimes for Christ to come, any minute, any time.
(Alanforchrist;40041)
Acording to the greek, The trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15; 52, is not the 7th trump, and has no conection with the trumpets in Rev 8.I have noticed that every false teachers always quote what "So and So" said, rather then what the Bible says. The reason being is because there is no Biblical evidence to back it up, unless they misquote, or take it out of its context. To say that the pre- tribulation rapture didn't exist before 1830 proves that these people don't know the Bible. They should read the Bible in the Holy Spirit, Not in first imaginations. also some people don't have a teachable spirit, They believe what they want, then when truth is revealed to them, They say, "That is wrong". instead of studying the Bible with an open mind, and a teachable spirit.if anyone wants to know what the Bible says on this subject, read my post on "Why Christians wont go through the tribulation". I give only what the Bible and the Greek says. By the way, the [Greek "Original"], has the rapture before the tribulation. your arguement is not with Pre-trib believers, but with God.
That is absolute lie and twisting of scripture to make it say what you want 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. You call this the first? BLASPHEMY!!This is Satan Normal motive of operation he is a scripture expert No Apostle nor Christ himself ever taught a Pre -Trib rapture Lies of men You are making assumptions that are not written and calling the Word of God a lie to support your theory of men. This was never taught until an Insane woman came up with it based on One left one taken parable. Then men went about taking scripture out of context to find support. If you can disprove any of the presented facts I suggest you contact the Writer of the article he is offering a thousand dollars Futher more you have to Ignore so much scripture to come to this conclusion it borders on blasphemy Gods word describes two comings not three one harvest not two You can not present a single scripture to support your view only claim the ones there are wrong If you think God That's problem you have to prove Gods wrong and your right
Acording to the greek, The trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15; 52, is not the 7th trump, and has no conection with the trumpets in Rev 8.I have noticed that every false teachers always quote what "So and So" said, rather then what the Bible says. The reason being is because there is no Biblical evidence to back it up, unless they misquote, or take it out of its context. To say that the pre- tribulation rapture didn't exist before 1830 proves that these people don't know the Bible. They should read the Bible in the Holy Spirit, Not in first imaginations. also some people don't have a teachable spirit, They believe what they want, then when truth is revealed to them, They say, "That is wrong". instead of studying the Bible with an open mind, and a teachable spirit.if anyone wants to know what the Bible says on this subject, read my post on "Why Christians wont go through the tribulation". I give only what the Bible and the Greek says. By the way, the [Greek "Original"], has the rapture before the tribulation. your arguement is not with Pre-trib believers, but with God.
That is absolute lie and twisting of scripture to make it say what you want 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. You call this the first? BLASPHEMY!!This is Satan Normal motive of operation he is a scripture expert No Apostle nor Christ himself ever taught a Pre -Trib rapture Lies of men You are making assumptions that are not written and calling the Word of God a lie to support your theory of men. This was never taught until an Insane woman came up with it based on One left one taken parable. Then men went about taking scripture out of context to find support. If you can disprove any of the presented facts I suggest you contact the Writer of the article he is offering a thousand dollars Futher more you have to Ignore so much scripture to come to this conclusion it borders on blasphemy Gods word describes two comings not three one harvest not two You can not present a single scripture to support your view only claim the ones there are wrong If you think God That's problem you have to prove Gods wrong and your right
tim_from_pa
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I never talked much about the rapture here on this board, but I am starting to get a little agitated with the stuff that goes back and forth. First of all, there is no "rapture" mentioned in the bible. That's a Christian catch-word. But before we get too tough on that, I will say, there is clearly taught "catching away" and as Paul stated, where? In the air with the Lord.Maybe I just like UFO stories, but I see Enoch being caught away. Then there was Elijah. Then we see Phillip being caught way, but that was "horizontally" to another place. Likewise, believers will be caught away. However, that being said, I think that when this happens, there will be relatively few believers to be caught away, as most of the mainline church are not saved. Nobody will hardly notice.I am a believer that I will emulate everything the Lord did.... He was born and lived, I am born and alive. He died, so will I. He arose again, I will too. He ascended to heaven, I will too. He will come again and rule and reign with a rod of Iron as God Himself, so will I. This is also mentioned in Enoch, the other Scriptures.Everyone can figure it out as to the "timing" of the so-called rapture based on what I said. But I do know that what I said is definitely scriptural.Geez...... I'm starting to feel like I am one of the few people that have the truth.
True Tim but when is this ? We are told in Gods Word in 2 thess. After the tribulation after the antichrist There is only one second coming of the Lord and all will see him coming with great glory there is no secret coming written of anywhere in scripture.
yes, the word "rapture" is never mentioned in the Bible... but then again, neither is the word "Trinity", and yet we still believe in that
2 Thessalonians 2 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, What is the subject here ? Our gathering to the Lord2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Do not be shakin by anything you have heard or any other letter that includes 1 Thess. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; This is Antichrist Satan son of perdition has always been Satan 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Only one has dared to exalt himself above God Satan Isa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; This is the only time Christ will return the Last 7th trump it is the when men have lied about based on a vision of a 15 year olg girlJer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
I use to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture until I read 2 thessalonians 2:3. That verse single handedly dissproves the pre-tribulation rapture. I would like to see anyone try and change that verse around to support a contradicting theory.
Amen followerofchrist God has given you truth and you will be rewared and protectedthrough the tribulation it is a promise by God. Stay in his word and never let men deceive you
I have not posted on the rapture threads for the simple reason is I see good points on both sides. I have a strong foundation teaching on the pre-trib rapture. This teaching was taught like a lot of other doctrines- from man. I have not searched this out with the help of the Holy Spirit. My flesh does not want to go through the tribulation. So in my flesh I lean more toward the pre-trib. But.... We are to live in the Spirit without fear, So until God reveals to me the truth of this, I will just trust him to carry me through like Noah's Ark, Or carry me to wedding supper without warning. My faith is in Him! His word also tells us not to be ignorant, so I listen and study. But one thing I would like to bring up is the tradition Jewish wedding. A study of this is packed full of truths about our own betrothal to our Lord.
unorthodox its not about the word its the timing there is only one second coming at the last 7th trump this in between Pre trib rapture is a lie setfreee what other side is there? it is not in Gods Word Even the believers of it cant give you any verse that says there is pre trib rapture there is only one side and thats Gods Word pre trib rapture called a Theroy because God never says it in started 1830, and then men went to see if they could find it well this verse could mean this if we take it out of context lets see if we switch the words around in this verse we might be able to come up with something thats not scripture Gods say in 2 thess 2 let me tell you when we will be gathered to the Lord after antichrist after Satan . Then Cor says we will ALL be changed at the last trump any teacher that teaches a pre trib rapture will be judged harshley and any believer is in danger of falling for Antichrist to believe this doctrine true we may as well throw half the bible in the trash because that what you have to do Ignore half of scripture to buy it It is this pre trib rapture theroy 2 thess. 2 is talking about when it says the mystery of lawlessness that is Satans lies are already at work
Kriss is there mention of Ephrian the Syrian any where in your History of the Rapture teaching? In the 1700's a teaching from some scrolls?
Yeah I know what you are talking about but the name I heard was alittle differntEphraem of Nisibis but I fail to see what one writting with one sentence double translated when only five other poems of his wriitings exist. the translations could be wrong. It was also rumored his father was an Idol worshipper though he claims they were christain.I frankly find this quite a strech as proof of anything seems rather desperate to me.
I am unfamiliar with what yall are talking about, would you mind providing the writing yall are discussing
(followerofchrist;40193)
I am unfamiliar with what yall are talking about, would you mind providing the writing yall are discussing
Oh nothing really its a supposed mention of pre trib rapture by this guy in around the year 350 A.D. its a one and only writting with a sentance that was translated from one language to another and back to another Its only been said to exist by one person I know of but some pre-tribers like to say see this doctrine existed before 1830 I just find that a desperate claim to make. Its based on the two in the field Parable which alot of people confuse so I really dont think its revelant to anything except one anceit Christain made a common mistake or it was mistranslated along the line. The fact is this pre trib first came from the 15 year old girl in 1830
I am unfamiliar with what yall are talking about, would you mind providing the writing yall are discussing
Oh nothing really its a supposed mention of pre trib rapture by this guy in around the year 350 A.D. its a one and only writting with a sentance that was translated from one language to another and back to another Its only been said to exist by one person I know of but some pre-tribers like to say see this doctrine existed before 1830 I just find that a desperate claim to make. Its based on the two in the field Parable which alot of people confuse so I really dont think its revelant to anything except one anceit Christain made a common mistake or it was mistranslated along the line. The fact is this pre trib first came from the 15 year old girl in 1830
(Unorthodox Christian;40072)
AMEN ALAN. If the Rapture Doctrine was near the 1700-1800s, Then was did Paul Write a 2nd Epistle to the Thessalonians telling them that Christ has not came yet, although many in 1st Thessalonians were claiming so. Paul Hope manytimes for Christ to come, any minute, any time.
Good pont, The early Church were expecting Jesus any minuet.
AMEN ALAN. If the Rapture Doctrine was near the 1700-1800s, Then was did Paul Write a 2nd Epistle to the Thessalonians telling them that Christ has not came yet, although many in 1st Thessalonians were claiming so. Paul Hope manytimes for Christ to come, any minute, any time.
Good pont, The early Church were expecting Jesus any minuet.
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