Don't be left Behind on Rapture Day!!

[Bobby Jo]

... Paul wrote that the departure / removal / rapture must occur before the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist / beast is revealed.

I believe what you accredit to Paul is not what he was conveying! :)

Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

I believe what you accredit to Paul is not what he was conveying! :)

Bobby Jo

I do. The Greek behind the text suggests that as does the context of the passage. Paul did remind them the he had told them this before, and 1 Thessalonians talks of our being caught up to be with the Lord. I realize that some will disagree. Heck, that is the nature of a family of brothers and sisters. We have our disagreements on various issues. And since eschatology positions are not a condition of salvation, we can amicably disagree.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Cliff

 

[Davy]

While many berate those who believe in a pre-trib removal of the righteous, those who do hold a PT removal are all inclusive.... everyone who has placed their trust in Yeshua gets to catch the bus out of here, even those who fight tooth and nail against the idea. Not a person who has placed their trust in Messiah will be "left behind".

1 Thessalonians 4:18 (NKJV) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Sorry to say it, but those who hold to a pre-trib rapture don't really understand the 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture.

In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures, our Lord Jesus showed the same gathering event of His Church that Apostle Paul did in 1 Thess.4.

In the Matthew 24:29-31 version, Jesus showed His saints from Heaven being gathered, i.e., the 'asleep' saints Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes.

In the Mark 13:24-27 version, Jesus showed the gathering of His saints still alive on earth, which are the saints that Paul showed are 'caught up' to Him on that day.

In both of those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 examples, our Lord Jesus showed the timing for that is immediately AFTER the tribulation.

Christ's Revelation also aligns with this, since the very last sign Jesus gave was that of His 2nd coming.

 

[Willie T]

Why are we being told our Salvation depends upon believing in a man-conceived doctrine? How come neither God, Jesus, nor the Apostles ever said that?

 

[Davy]

Why are we being told our Salvation depends upon believing in a man-conceived doctrine? How come neither God, Jesus, nor the Apostles ever said that?

What kind of "man-conceived doctrine" would you be trying to insinuate? Need to be specific.

 

[Copperhead]

In the Matthew 24:29-31 version, Jesus showed His saints from Heaven being gathered, i.e., the 'asleep' saints Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes.

Well, one needs to see who Yahweh considers His elect....

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

No conflict. The believers are saints/elect, but that doesn't preclude Jacob/Israel also being the elect. And the condition of Yeshua's (Jesus) return is that Jacob/Israel acknowledge their sin of rejecting Him, turn to Him, and petition for His return. Hosea 5-6 and Matthew 23 spell that out pretty well. So unless you can show where the Saints/Church have rejected Messiah to cause Him to return to His place as Hosea states, especially since the Church/Ekklesia formally began at Shavuot/Pentecost after Yeshua had already returned to His place, then there is two unique entities that are the elect of Yahweh. Justification is the same for both.... thru the Messiah. No dual covenant nonsense.

The saints that return with Yeshua are those who were caught up (1 Thessalonians 4) prior to the antichrist/beast/son of perdition/man of sin being revealed as the context and literal Greek of 2 Thessalonians 2 that Paul wrote. And by Jacob/Israel acknowledging their sin of rejecting Messiah and turning to Him, that makes them saints also.

Also, Matthew 25 pretty much shows how the nations are judged, which is a exposition on Joel 3. Those that make it thru the tribulation period and pass thru that judgement enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth.

 

[Davy]

Well, one needs to see who Yahweh considers His elect....
....

That's just an attempt to change the subject. The subject is about the gathering of Christ's saints, and the timing, as per the Matthew 24, Mark 13, and 1 Thessalonians 2 chapters.

 

[Copperhead]

That's just an attempt to change the subject. The subject is about the gathering of Christ's saints, and the timing, as per the Matthew 24, Mark 13, and 1 Thessalonians 2 chapters.

If you say so. But the context of 2 Thessalonians 2, right in verse 1, is the day of the Lord and our gathering to Him. And that day (day of the Lord from verse 1) will not come until the departure/apostasia of verse 3. And virtually every English translation prior to the KJV, and even the Septuagint, states in V3 that the "departure" will happen before or at the same time as the revealing of the son of perdition/man of sin/antichrist character and the day of the Lord.

The "departure" or apostasia of verse 3 in the context of the passage from verse 1 implies the departure is a physical one and not a spiritual one. After all, there is nothing specific in the Greek of verse 3 which shows what is being departed from. So to conclude that it is a departure from the faith or "falling away" the translators that do that violate the context of the passage. There are many Greek scholars who agree.

So unless the antichrist/son of perdition/beast only shows up a minute before Yeshua's literal return to the earth, the idea that Matthew 24 is speaking of the Church/Ekklesia during of the day of Lord and going thru it doesn't hold water.

And those "taken" in Matthew 24 are those taken for condemnation, not salvation. Prior to that, the same passage talks about who was "taken" in the days of Noah, and it was those who were condemned, then follows who will be taken in the latter days. The literary structure insists that it is the condemned who at taken away. This ties in the Matthew 25 and Joel 3 where when Messiah returns He judges the nations. So Matthew 24 and 25 do not have the Church/Ekklesia in view, as they were caught up prior to those events per 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... 1 Thessalonians talks of our being caught up to be with the Lord. ...

1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. ​

It pertains to sequence, not timing. For example just because you were born in a certain community, and graduated H.S. from there, doesn't mean you graduated HS at the age of 1. And so too, just because Jesus will return to rule at the sound of the trumpet, doesn't mean that the dead will rise at that time:

Rev. 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.​

So after a THOUSAND YEARS:

1 Thess. 4:16 ... the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. ​

But false doctrines are prevalent in the church.

Think about the one where ill-considered people discount planning for tomorrow (i.e., for when we can't buy or sell) by citing the passage where we're told not to worry about tomorrow, for today has enough worry. But that's not what GOD has for HIS children. In fact we can either diligently work on the tasks that face us today, or sit on our derrieres and think about all the things which face us TOMORROW. -- Simply put, if we work today, we will be able to work on tomorrow's tasks tomorrow, instead of working on today's tasks tomorrow.

Or how about because we can't know the day or the hour, that we can't know the week; month; season; year (1); decade (10); score (20); century (100; daytona (500); or millennia (1,000)?!?

Or another favorite where the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence? Everyone thinks the this is about persecution in the church, when in fact, we're the ones who need to assail the gates of heaven to receive from GOD. And we ain't gonna be do'in no assailing while eating Lays® potato chips and sipping a Pepsi® while reclining on a sofa watching Oprah®.


Are we so stupid that we can't see beyond the first level of thought, and then excuse our ignorance as ~christian forbearance~? Apparently so!
Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

Well, Paul seemed to say in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians that the departure / our gathering to the Lord, would be a part of the Day of the Lord and occur before the son of perdition is revealed. And since we will not precede those who are asleep, that means they get a head start (well, they do have 6 ft more to go than we do) and we will join with them to the Lord.

Or how about because we can't know the day or the hour, that we can't know the week; month; season; year (1); decade (10); score (20); century (100; daytona (500); or millennia (1,000)?!?

Matthew 24:35-36 (NKJV) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

"that day and hour" follows what is being talked about in the previous verse. Remember basic reading comprehension from grade school? Well, the topic was "heaven and earth will pass away" and of "that day and hour" no one knows. That has nothing to do with the removal / Rapture / harpazo nor does it have anything to do with the tribulation or the Day of the Lord.

So, I will concede I have not one single clue when heaven and earth will pass away, just as Yeshua said, but I also know that He didn't say we have no ability to know the seasons and times when the removal/rapture and the Day of the Lord will come. And Hosea 5:14-6:2 in conjunction with 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 should be a real clue when things are going to happen.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 (NKJV) But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

"they" and "them" refers to those who are not the brethren. That day will only come as a thief in the night to those who are not part of the brethren/believers. For the believers, there should be no surprises. In virtually every instance of history, the Lord let's His people know when things are about to transpire.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

The context of the passage is the coming of the Lord or Day of the Lord and our assembling unto Him. And that day shall not come until the departure comes first. And the context of the passage is "our assembling unto Him" so the "departing" can only refer to that assembling unto Him.

I know, I used the 1599 Geneva. But virtually every English translation prior to the KJV and even the Latin of the Septuagint translates the Greek as simply "departure". Without a specific mention of what is being departed from, one can only rely on the context of the passage. And that context is our assembling unto Him. The context is not our departing from Him, so "falling away", "rebellion", and similar translation constructs violate both the grammar of the Greek and the context of the passage. Not my vain idea, but the recognition of many Greek scholars.

 

[Helen]

And then John says" "I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb" . . “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come **OUT** of the great tribulation." Rev 7:9

Oh thank you...I had never 'seen' those verses linked here re rapture.

Very good Excellent point . :)

 

[Bobby Jo]

...
Matthew 24:35-36 (NKJV) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

"that day and hour" follows what is being talked about in the previous verse. ...

Yeah, and I wouldn't connect your "day and hour" with the following verses, because they might refute the distortions which you contrive:

Matt. 24:37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.​

So PLEASE pick and choose how you parse Scripture to make a TRUTH into a deception by your omissions. :)

Whew,
Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, and I wouldn't connect your "day and hour" with the following verses, because they might refute the distortions which you contrive:

Matt. 24:37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.​

So PLEASE pick and choose how you parse Scripture to make a TRUTH into a deception by your omissions. :)

Whew,
Bobby Jo

Oh boy..... distortions, contrive, deceptions, etc

You do know that it is sin to unjustly accuse and defame the brethren don't you? Distortion and deception implies a willful intent. Without knowing my motivation, you have no basis to make such accusations. And falsely accusing others is a violation of the 9th commandment. I can make errors like anyone else, but that is not willful intent to deceive, contrive, or distort. Watch and tread lightly.

You quote Matthew 24:37-39. Ok. But what follows after that.......

Matthew 24:40-42 (NKJV) Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

The context of what the passage you quoted is those who were swept away / taken during the flood.... those who were condemned. The passage then links that to those taken at the end. Following the context, it is those who are condemned who are taken. This matches up with Matthew 25 and Joel 3.... the judgement of the nations when Messiah comes. Has nothing to do with believers that make up the Church/Ekklesia who are removed prior to that period as per Paul.

Those of the nations when the Lord comes that are not condemned and taken, enter into the millennial kingdom as mortals who will repopulate the earth. And while they are considered justified by their acceptance of Messiah and have eternal life just as those who believe and trust in the Messiah now have passed from death to life, they will bear offspring, and those will bear offspring and so on. And since Satan is able to foist a major rebellion once again when he is released as per Revelation 20, it would seem that those offspring are not so inclined to accept the reign of Messiah over them. Psalms 2 addresses that also. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

And those of the Church/Ekklesia will rule with a rod of iron along side Yeshua per Revelation 2. Who would we be ruling over and why would we need to be ruling with a rod of iron, which implies that some folks are getting out of line?

Oh, well. Happy Thanksgiving!

Cliff

 

[Bobby Jo]

... 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
...

EXACTLY, we won't know the literal "day or the hour", but we can know the YEAR, and the SEASON, and the MONTH, and the WEEK. (If Jesus returns during a multi-day Feast, we won't know which DAY or which HOUR.) Now I don't particularly care to know the WEEK, or even the MONTH, but I do know the timing plus or minus a few weeks and that's all I need to know.

But you don't even know the YEAR plus or minus a YEAR, and WE'RE ALREADY IN THE TRIBULATION. -- Of which you probably believe lasts a FALSE "7-years", according to a FALSE "seventieth week of Daniel", instead of the TRUE 42 months of Rev. 13.


And so because of your lack of understanding YOU make a WONDERFUL candidate for the GREAT FALLING AWAY, because you haven't used your PURSE to fill your BAG and to buy a SWORD as instructed:

Luke 22:35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.​

If it happened to Peter in the courtyard, -- it most likely will happen to church attendees.
Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

and WE'RE ALREADY IN THE TRIBULATION. -- Of which you probably believe lasts a FALSE "7-years", according to a FALSE "seventieth week of Daniel", instead of the TRUE 42 months of Rev. 13.

I don't hold that we are already in the tribulation period. Literally, the GT is indeed the last 3.5 years / 42 months not the full 7. Daniel 9:27 even suggests that. You really need to take a chill pill and not assume so much negative of other folks.

But whomever shows up that is the false messiah / antichrist / son of perdition, Daniel also talks about him confirming a covenant with the Hebrew people. And the 1st seal of Revelation, the rider goes out conquering and to conquer and has a bow. With no context of what that "bow" is, we need to look at reference to a "bow" in scripture and apply the hermeneutic principle of "law of first mention". And the first occurrence of a bow is in Genesis 9 which is the covenant made with Noah and the Lord set a bow in the cloud as a sign. It is reasonable to see the "bow" of Revelation 6 as being the covenant confirmed in Daniel 9:27. And that covenant is for one week, which in the context of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, means 7 years.

And for him to confirm that covenant, by default he has to be revealed. And Paul wrote that the departure (removal of the righteous) will occur prior to him being revealed. Again, the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is "our gathering unto the Lord" And in that context (verse 3) is the departure prior to the son of perdition being revealed. The Greek is specific. It is a departure, and the passage of Verse 3 does not state what is being departed from so the context of "our gathering unto the Lord" of verse 1 must be applied. Therefore, it is the departure and our gathering unto the Lord, prior to the son of perdition being revealed.

But that covenant is rescinded at 3.5 years per Daniel 9:27. That will bring in the actual 42 month GT period as you state. On that we can agree.

Now you actually know what I consider to be true regarding one of the aspects of the GT period and its length. At least ask if you are not sure of my positions and quit making baseless accusations of what you think I believe. Not once have I made similar accusations of you. At least be civil and do likewise.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... GT is indeed the last 3.5 years / 42 months not the full 7. ...

See? You don't even know the first thing about Bible prophecy, and here you are telling others what to think, believe, and anticipate.

THERE AIN'T NO SEVEN YEARS! -- Can I make that any more CLEAR?

Now if you want to find out what Daniel 9 DOES SAY then we can have that discussion. But it ain't what the LIARS (commentators) have told us, and it ain't what our HIRELINGS have told us, and it ain't what you've said.


Ignorance can be cured, but stupidity is forever, -- (Don't you LOVE that saying?)
Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

See? You don't even know the first thing about Bible prophecy, and here you are telling others what to think, believe, and anticipate.

THERE AIN'T NO SEVEN YEARS! -- Can I make that any more CLEAR?

Now if you want to find out what Daniel 9 DOES SAY then we can have that discussion. But it ain't what the LIARS (commentators) have told us, and it ain't what our HIRELINGS have told us, and it ain't what you've said.


Ignorance can be cured, but stupidity is forever, -- (Don't you LOVE that saying?)
Bobby Jo

Ok. You have continued to step over the line and insult and make slanderous accusations. You are no longer worthy of brotherly dialogue. You need to seek forgiveness. You definitely are not exhibiting the fruit of the spirit. I am not called to judge a person's justification, but I can observe fruit. We are done.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Ok. You have continued to step over the line and insult and make slanderous accusations. You are no longer worthy of brotherly dialogue. You need to seek forgiveness. You definitely are not exhibiting the fruit of the spirit. I am not called to judge a person's justification, but I can observe fruit. We are done.

YOU NEED TO EDUCATE YOURSELF so you STOP making asserts WHICH ARE PATENTLY FALSE. -- And I'm willing to go down that path with you to see what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS. :)


And you're wrong on judging. We ARE to judge what the prophets (and thereby Apostles, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers) say. And I challenge you to CORRECTLY judge what you think you know (Dan. 9) versus what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS.

But being lazy is easier than being a Christian,
Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

 

[Bobby Jo]

Your response reminds me of the line in the movie, "Indiana Jones, And The Last Crusade", where the old knight said regarding the ambitious souvenir hunter: "he chose poorly".


Bobby Jo