Dueling dual natures

[Mr E]

I've shared this elsewhere. It's a poem a friend of mine wrote that really hit a chord with me and so many others. I hope you enjoy it also. It shines a light on the nature of man.

The body falls
The soul does stand
Which was it first
The Soul or man?
If what we see, our spirit sees
Does not it have autonomy?

Of its nature, much is spoken
We see not more than just a token
Is all we glimpse, or think, or feel
More than a shadow of all that's real?

The body breathes, the Spirit leads
A symptom of duality

With sight uncommon
Or soul unbound
With vision clear
Or symbols found

The story known, though cast unborn
As from a Book, from pages torn
If then what will is known and still
Where do we find such that is Will?

A subject matter much debated
With answers great, and masticated
A simple truth might simply be...
The choices made of Will that's free
Do plant the seeds of all to be.

As story told, from symbols wrought
Of stones unturned, of dreams not sought
A choice is made from those then brought
From rainbow hues, of color not

Of food that's given, and hunger stayed
Of doors once locked, and keys then made
Of path that's walked, and price that's paid
Of faith thus kept, and doubt at bay

For though ones self be self assailed
The One does guide them to prevail

For those about, and those at rest
Ones self made known, as though undressed
From rooms within, with windows closed
To keep that in thus unexposed?

For missteps made along the way
To see ones self and unafraid
The sight made clear, the Spirit dressed
With raiment white, and oil pressed

With insight sought, from lands diverse
With face unknown, they all converse
The bond is made, though hand not given
From need thus shared, with souls thus shriven

What will to come, er soon or late
Does differ from the feel of fate?

On road ahead, a few must stand
On path thus trod, on lines thus manned
The what is clear, the where not bidden
As with a horse, with rider ridden

What will to come will come at will
As with the hounds at riders heel

 

[Mr E]

What happens when we die?

The body falls, the soul is all that remains. You can think of it as your physical body, but scripture describes our body as nothing more than an outer covering-- like clothes that are put on and taken off. Or like a tent, or shelter, or house-- a dwelling place, and a temporary one at that. In other instances we are thought of as earthen vessels, jars of clay, nothing more than breakable containers for contents of value-- for the water. For the light, for the wine.

As such we are containers of Life. Of Life-blood, -and this is our soul. It is the record of us. The record of our lives.

When the body falls it returns to dust while the spirit rises and returns to God, to stand before Him-- and books are opened. Our souls laid bare before He who judges and in spirit departed from the earthly tent we are weighed and measured to see what worth, what fruit has been returned to Him who planted us in human soil. The accuser speaks, and brings his damnable charges against us and under the weight of his lies we are brought to our knees, unable to defend ourselves-- but then a Champion rises.... 'This one,' he says. 'This is one of mine, -one that I have purchased-- one that I ransomed from the lost world, paid for to rescue and release from a life of slavery.'

And the accuser is silenced.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What happens when we die?

The body falls, the soul is all that remains. You can think of it as your physical body, but scripture describes our body as nothing more than an outer covering-- like clothes that are put on and taken off. Or like a tent, or shelter, or house-- a dwelling place, and a temporary one at that. In other instances we are thought of as earthen vessels, jars of clay, nothing more than breakable containers for contents of value-- for the water. For the light, for the wine.

As such we are containers of Life. Of Life-blood, -and this is our soul. It is the record of us. The record of our lives.

When the body falls it returns to dust while the spirit rises and returns to God, to stand before Him-- and books are opened. Our souls laid bare before He who judges and in spirit departed from the earthly tent we are weighed and measured to see what worth, what fruit has been returned to Him who planted us in human soil. The accuser speaks, and brings his damnable charges against us and under the weight of his lies we are brought to our knees, unable to defend ourselves-- but then a Champion rises.... 'This one,' he says. 'This is one of mine, -one that I have purchased-- one that I ransomed from the lost world, paid for to rescue and release from a life of slavery.'

And the accuser is silenced.

Have you ever done original word studies on the meaning of "soul" and "spirit"? In the Bible these terms are not interchangeable.
Hebrew word for "soul" is neʹphesh. The Greek...psy·kheʹ. And for "spirit" the Hebrew is "ruʹach" and the Greek word "pneuʹma".
The soul describes a living breathing creature, both man and animal. It is never used to describe a disembodied spirit.
In scripture, the soul has personality, whereas the spirit does not.
In Genesis the man Adam "became" a "living soul" when God breathed "the breath [spirit] of life into his nostrils". The man was not given a soul but became one when God started him breathing.

We can see in the Greek words used above that we are familiar with terms that use these words in English. Psychiatry for example is used for treating the mind and mental disorders...whereas pneumatic means something filled with air.

The word "spirit" also has different meanings which are defined by context......so to distinguish between the original meaning of these two words and the later interpretation given to them by religious commentators, you have to do some research....which turns up some surprising results.

Let me know if you would like to know more....."what happens when we die" is not what many have been taught.....there is no "soul" that leaves the body at death. This is a pagan Greek idea that was adopted in the early centuries. The Jews believed in resurrection, which was a return to life rather than a continuation of it. Remember that Jesus was Jewish and told his disciples what he would do for them. (John 5:28-29)
He demonstrated the resurrection by bringing people back to life here on earth. (John 11:11-14)

 

[amadeus]

@Mr E

"Dueling dual natures"

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

 

[Mr E]

@Mr E

"Dueling dual natures"

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

The good seed and the bad seed (weeds) were sown in the same soil.

 

[dev553344]

I think man becomes defiled from sin and is more prone to sin the more he engages in it. It is like becoming a slave to sin. Romans 6:20-23.

God's spirit is good, loving and righteous. And when we receive his holy spirit sometimes it battles against our fallen nature. But God is supposed to free us from sin.

I believe that Adam and Eve fell. And that every child on earth is taught in some degree to sin. And when we sin as children growing up we fall like Adam and Eve. We are raised in a sinful earth and subject to the fall. Christ was born of the Holy Spirit and I consider his spirit to be Holy from the beginning and as such rejected sin and took upon himself our sins and conquered death and hell.

And I think because of this fall, we are taught to be baptized and prayed upon to receive the Holy Spirit so that God can help us battle our fallen natures and become more loving and righteous people. And I think God's template is a loving and healthy family in heaven and earth. And with the sacrament of Christ, The new Passover feast, the bread and wine, body and blood of Jesus we can be resurrected and live in a loving family with Heavenly Father and Jesus the Christ, full of the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[Mr E]

I think man becomes defiled from sin and is more prone to sin the more he engages in it. It is like becoming a slave to sin. Romans 6:20-23.

God's spirit is good, loving and righteous. And when we receive his holy spirit sometimes it battles against our fallen nature. But God is supposed to free us from sin.

I believe that Adam and Eve fell. And that every child on earth is taught in some degree to sin. And when we sin as children growing up we fall like Adam and Eve. We are raised in a sinful earth and subject to the fall. Christ was born of the Holy Spirit and I consider his spirit to be Holy from the beginning and as such rejected sin and took upon himself our sins and conquered death and hell.

And I think because of this fall, we are taught to be baptized and prayed upon to receive the Holy Spirit so that God can help us battle our fallen natures and become more loving and righteous people. And I think God's template is a loving and healthy family in heaven and earth. And with the sacrament of Christ, The new Passover feast, the bread and wine, body and blood of Jesus we can be resurrected and live in a loving family with Heavenly Father and Jesus the Christ, full of the Holy Spirit of God.

That's probably a pretty popular creed devin. It's what we might call orthodoxy, in that it goes along with the 'accepted' norms and thinking. What does it mean 'to fall' like Adam and Eve though? That idea is often not solidified even amongst those who would check a box beside your creed above. You speak about our fallen natures-- and that's really what this thread (and that little poem) is about. The distinction that exists between our two natures- that heavenly one and that fallen (from heaven) earthly, sinful one. Our human nature is our condition here- in what we call this physical world while our higher nature is of and from the spiritual realm.

 

[Mr E]

Have you ever done original word studies on the meaning of "soul" and "spirit"? In the Bible these terms are not interchangeable.
Hebrew word for "soul" is neʹphesh. The Greek...psy·kheʹ. And for "spirit" the Hebrew is "ruʹach" and the Greek word "pneuʹma".
The soul describes a living breathing creature, both man and animal. It is never used to describe a disembodied spirit.
In scripture, the soul has personality, whereas the spirit does not.
In Genesis the man Adam "became" a "living soul" when God breathed "the breath [spirit] of life into his nostrils". The man was not given a soul but became one when God started him breathing.

We can see in the Greek words used above that we are familiar with terms that use these words in English. Psychiatry for example is used for treating the mind and mental disorders...whereas pneumatic means something filled with air.

The word "spirit" also has different meanings which are defined by context......so to distinguish between the original meaning of these two words and the later interpretation given to them by religious commentators, you have to do some research....which turns up some surprising results.

Let me know if you would like to know more....."what happens when we die" is not what many have been taught.....there is no "soul" that leaves the body at death. This is a pagan Greek idea that was adopted in the early centuries. The Jews believed in resurrection, which was a return to life rather than a continuation of it. Remember that Jesus was Jewish and told his disciples what he would do for them. (John 5:28-29)
He demonstrated the resurrection by bringing people back to life here on earth. (John 11:11-14)

Hello Aunty Jane,

Just getting back to your excellent commentary-- Yes, I do pay attention to original languages and root words in particular as I study concepts. I find it all fascinating and informative. Adam, as you mention- became a living soul when the spirit was breathed into him. Another way of saying this is that he became "alive" or "a living being" or simply-- "a life" when the spirit of God was breathed into him.

Our physical life begins one might say at first breath and ends at final breath-- and that life can be considered a soul. If you'll allow, the soul is the "life" experience of that spirit that was breathed into us. The spirit pre-exists, descends from the heavens, experiences life (as a temporary abode in a physical dwelling/tent/vessel/body) and at the end of that experience- returns to God. I quite like your reference to the spirit as the breath of God in that this descent and return is as natural in a spiritual sense as exhaling and inhaling, His 'breath' sent out and returning to Him-- as natural a process as that. The body and soul are entirely linked, while the spirit does exist both before and beyond that short span, what scripture sometimes calls our momentary existence- The spirit does indeed have autonomy (free will).

The body falls
The soul does stand
Which was it first
The Soul or man?
If what we see, our spirit sees
Does not it have autonomy?

Of its nature, much is spoken
We see not more than just a token
Is all we glimpse, or think, or feel
More than a shadow of all that's real?

The body breathes, the Spirit leads
A symptom of duality

 

[Aunty Jane]

Adam, as you mention- became a living soul when the spirit was breathed into him. Another way of saying this is that he became "alive" or "a living being" or simply-- "a life" when the spirit of God was breathed into him.

Thank you for your response....its an interesting subject to explore actually.
When Adam was created "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life"...it wasn't "the spirit of God" but the first breath that made Adam into a "living soul". The base meaning of "soul" is breathing, which is something all "souls" do.

Solomon lamented that humans have no advantage over the animals in death....he said in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.......
"For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.

20 All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust." (Jewish Tanakh)

Since Solomon knew the Hebrew scriptures well, and he understood that God gave mankind dominion over the animal kingdom, it made no sense to him that we had no advantage over the animals....all die the same death because all have the same "spirit".
So what is this "spirit" that all "souls" possess?

According to Strongs Concordance, the "spirit" is "rûaḥ" and it means....
"wind, breath, mind, spirit

1. breath
2. wind
   1. of heaven
   2. quarter (of wind), side
   3. breath of air
   4. air, gas
   5. vain, empty thing
3. spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
   1. spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
   2. courage
   3. temper, anger
   4. impatience, patience
   5. spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
   6. disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
   7. prophetic spirit"

So, not a simple word with a simple meaning. The "spirit" that God breathed into Adam was his literal breath, which put into operation the natural ability of all living souls to sustain their lives by breathing. When breathing stops, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) I understand that this is a foreign thought to most people but it is what the scriptures teach. The ancient Jews (as opposed to the modern day ones) had no belief in an afterlife.

Our physical life begins one might say at first breath and ends at final breath-- and that life can be considered a soul. If you'll allow, the soul is the "life" experience of that spirit that was breathed into us.

Yes, our physical life begins, but nowhere in the Genesis account will you find death mentioned except as a penalty for disobedience. IOW, there was no 'natural' cause of death for the human race. They alone were made in God's image and likeness, so death was not to be part of that. The "tree of life" was there in the garden to guarantee unending life in mortal flesh, as long as they remained obedient. But because they transgressed God's command, access to the tree of life was denied....for the indefinite future.

"And the Lord God said, “Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God expelled him from the orchard in Eden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life." (Genesis 3:22-24 NET)

The spirit pre-exists, descends from the heavens, experiences life (as a temporary abode in a physical dwelling/tent/vessel/body) and at the end of that experience- returns to God.

In my studies I find that "the spirit of God" was the 'mover and shaker' used by the Creator....being the exercise of his power in accomplishing his will wherever, and to whomever he sent it. I do not see God's spirit as a living separate entity, nor do I see the "breath of life" instilled in all "souls" as a conscious entity which in habits a body and departs at death to return to God. Animals have the same "spirit" (breath) and die the same death as we do. They were never promised everlasting life, but have a natural cycle of life and death.

Death was the result of Adam's sin. Nowhere do I see in the creation of man any idea that this earth was some kind of training ground for heaven.....if God had wanted us in heaven, he would have put us there like he did his other "sons". We had a purpose to our being here, like all things that God does. That purpose never went away.

I believe that the earth was created for all the "souls" that God put here to share life with us, and that in the original plan there was to be no sickness, suffering or death for humans. "Everlasting life" was guaranteed as long as the humans obeyed their Creator......when they failed to do that, God withdrew the only means they had to keep living, so death came as a result of their sin.
"The wages sin pays is death"....so logically, no sin = no death.
Sin and death are inherited from that one man. (Romans 5:12)

I quite like your reference to the spirit as the breath of God in that this descent and return is as natural in a spiritual sense as exhaling and inhaling, His 'breath' sent out and returning to Him-- as natural a process as that. The body and soul are entirely linked, while the spirit does exist both before and beyond that short span, what scripture sometimes calls our momentary existence- The spirit does indeed have autonomy (free will).

Well, the body and the soul are inseparably linked. A soul needs a body in order to breathe....the "natural process" I see in scripture is that the breath (spirit) that God created to begin at birth in all souls, and ceases at death "returns to God" in as much as God is the only one who can resurrect a body and return its breath. God is the giver of life and also the restorer of it.

Since there was never any mention of "heaven or hell" in any of the scriptures from which Christ taught as a devout Jew, we have to look elsewhere for the origin of those ideas and we find them in pagan Greek teachings of an immortal soul, blessed with eternal life in heaven or suffering eternal damnation in a fiery hell. Neither of these are what Christ taught, but the early "church" corrupted by the teachings of the nations around them, adopted them like orphans with no place to call home.

The whole idea of surviving death to go on living somewhere else does not find its origins in scripture.....rather there is a grafting in of ideas and a misinterpretation of scripture that gives rise to beliefs that Christ never taught.

The body falls
The soul does stand
Which was it first
The Soul or man?
If what we see, our spirit sees
Does not it have autonomy?

Of its nature, much is spoken
We see not more than just a token
Is all we glimpse, or think, or feel
More than a shadow of all that's real?

The body breathes, the Spirit leads
A symptom of duality

This poem betrays a lack of discernment between "soul" and "spirit". The "soul" is the living, thinking, breathing person......the "spirit" is the animating force that causes breathing to continue until we breathe our last breath.
"Which is first the soul or man"? When a human breathes his first breath, he "becomes" a "soul". He is not "given" one.

King David put it this way....
"Their life’s breath departs, they return to the ground.
On that day their plans die." (Psalm 146:4 NET)
The word's translated "life's breath" here, is "rûaḥ" or "spirit".
When we breathe our last breath, 'our spirit departs'......and all thinking processes cease. Plans can no longer be carried out. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

We humans, unlike the animal "souls" have a spiritual aspect to our nature because of being made in God's image and likeness.
We alone possess the need to worship and honor our Creator....And it was supposed to be here on this earth in a paradise that God commanded to be extended to the ends of the earth.....to enjoy forever. What more could we need?

 

[face2face]

Have you ever done original word studies on the meaning of "soul" and "spirit"? In the Bible these terms are not interchangeable.
Hebrew word for "soul" is neʹphesh. The Greek...psy·kheʹ. And for "spirit" the Hebrew is "ruʹach" and the Greek word "pneuʹma".
The soul describes a living breathing creature, both man and animal. It is never used to describe a disembodied spirit.

Do you know how many times in this forum I have asked for one verse. just one! which shows a disembodied spirit and how many Christians have rose to the challenge?

Zip, zero, not one person!

 

[Mr E]

Thank you for your response....its an interesting subject to explore actually.
When Adam was created "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life"...it wasn't "the spirit of God" but the first breath that made Adam into a "living soul". The base meaning of "soul" is breathing, which is something all "souls" do.

Solomon lamented that humans have no advantage over the animals in death....he said in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.......
"For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.

20 All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust." (Jewish Tanakh)

Since Solomon knew the Hebrew scriptures well, and he understood that God gave mankind dominion over the animal kingdom, it made no sense to him that we had no advantage over the animals....all die the same death because all have the same "spirit".
So what is this "spirit" that all "souls" possess?

According to Strongs Concordance, the "spirit" is "rûaḥ" and it means....
"wind, breath, mind, spirit

1. breath
2. wind
   1. of heaven
   2. quarter (of wind), side
   3. breath of air
   4. air, gas
   5. vain, empty thing
3. spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
   1. spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
   2. courage
   3. temper, anger
   4. impatience, patience
   5. spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
   6. disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
   7. prophetic spirit"

So, not a simple word with a simple meaning. The "spirit" that God breathed into Adam was his literal breath, which put into operation the natural ability of all living souls to sustain their lives by breathing. When breathing stops, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) I understand that this is a foreign thought to most people but it is what the scriptures teach. The ancient Jews (as opposed to the modern day ones) had no belief in an afterlife.


Yes, our physical life begins, but nowhere in the Genesis account will you find death mentioned except as a penalty for disobedience. IOW, there was no 'natural' cause of death for the human race. They alone were made in God's image and likeness, so death was not to be part of that. The "tree of life" was there in the garden to guarantee unending life in mortal flesh, as long as they remained obedient. But because they transgressed God's command, access to the tree of life was denied....for the indefinite future.

"And the Lord God said, “Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God expelled him from the orchard in Eden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life." (Genesis 3:22-24 NET)


In my studies I find that "the spirit of God" was the 'mover and shaker' used by the Creator....being the exercise of his power in accomplishing his will wherever, and to whomever he sent it. I do not see God's spirit as a living separate entity, nor do I see the "breath of life" instilled in all "souls" as a conscious entity which in habits a body and departs at death to return to God. Animals have the same "spirit" (breath) and die the same death as we do. They were never promised everlasting life, but have a natural cycle of life and death.

Death was the result of Adam's sin. Nowhere do I see in the creation of man any idea that this earth was some kind of training ground for heaven.....if God had wanted us in heaven, he would have put us there like he did his other "sons". We had a purpose to our being here, like all things that God does. That purpose never went away.

I believe that the earth was created for all the "souls" that God put here to share life with us, and that in the original plan there was to be no sickness, suffering or death for humans. "Everlasting life" was guaranteed as long as the humans obeyed their Creator......when they failed to do that, God withdrew the only means they had to keep living, so death came as a result of their sin.
"The wages sin pays is death"....so logically, no sin = no death.
Sin and death are inherited from that one man. (Romans 5:12)


Well, the body and the soul are inseparably linked. A soul needs a body in order to breathe....the "natural process" I see in scripture is that the breath (spirit) that God created to begin at birth in all souls, and ceases at death "returns to God" in as much as God is the only one who can resurrect a body and return its breath. God is the giver of life and also the restorer of it.

Since there was never any mention of "heaven or hell" in any of the scriptures from which Christ taught as a devout Jew, we have to look elsewhere for the origin of those ideas and we find them in pagan Greek teachings of an immortal soul, blessed with eternal life in heaven or suffering eternal damnation in a fiery hell. Neither of these are what Christ taught, but the early "church" corrupted by the teachings of the nations around them, adopted them like orphans with no place to call home.

The whole idea of surviving death to go on living somewhere else does not find its origins in scripture.....rather there is a grafting in of ideas and a misinterpretation of scripture that gives rise to beliefs that Christ never taught.


This poem betrays a lack of discernment between "soul" and "spirit". The "soul" is the living, thinking, breathing person......the "spirit" is the animating force that causes breathing to continue until we breathe our last breath.
"Which is first the soul or man"? When a human breathes his first breath, he "becomes" a "soul". He is not "given" one.

King David put it this way....
"Their life’s breath departs, they return to the ground.
On that day their plans die." (Psalm 146:4 NET)
The word's translated "life's breath" here, is "rûaḥ" or "spirit".
When we breathe our last breath, 'our spirit departs'......and all thinking processes cease. Plans can no longer be carried out. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

We humans, unlike the animal "souls" have a spiritual aspect to our nature because of being made in God's image and likeness.
We alone possess the need to worship and honor our Creator....And it was supposed to be here on this earth in a paradise that God commanded to be extended to the ends of the earth.....to enjoy forever. What more could we need?

Thank you for your response. I intend to give it the attention it deserves as a well thought out explanation. I've been extremely busy and haven't had a moment, but I will come back to this. For now, I'll pose just one thought as a question to ponder. Does God breathe? -You can contend that 'it wasn't the spirit of God' that was 'breathed into' Adam making him alive. Are you sure? Can anything be alive apart from God's gift of Life and God is spirit. He doesn't "breathe" breath into us-- it's simply a way of expressing a concept. No mouth to mouth resuscitation required.

I'll take it a step further-- Adam, like any and all of us could have been very much alive and breathing in the physical sense, when God sent His son (spirit giving birth to spirit) -- the life-giving spirit to mankind as a means of rescue from this physical entrapment. I'm happy to explain this concept in greater detail when time permits, but to paint a bit of a picture from a deeper understanding of the creation account there are two natures described in the telling. One is spiritual and that was where the beginning begins. Adam is spiritual and with God in Paradise (heaven) and it is from this place that 'he falls' (the spiritual man) to the physical realm as a consequence for actions.... the story is told in two parts.

... but all that for another time. Does God breathe breath?

 

[Aunty Jane]

For now, I'll pose just one thought as a question to ponder. Does God breathe? -You can contend that 'it wasn't the spirit of God' that was 'breathed into' Adam making him alive. Are you sure? Can anything be alive apart from God's gift of Life and God is spirit. He doesn't "breathe" breath into us-- it's simply a way of expressing a concept. No mouth to mouth resuscitation required.

Every breathing thing is designed to draw breath when it has been born from its "womb"....animals or humans....all creatures called "souls" breathe. That is what a "soul" is...a living, breathing creature. A soul is not a disembodied spirit. The soul is inextricably tied to the body....one cannot exist without the other. When a soul stops breathing...it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Does God breathe? What an odd question.

If God is a spirit, then he does not require oxygen to sustain his life, and therefore does not need to breathe.
He lives in a spiritual realm, and so does not possess a physical body.

I'll take it a step further-- Adam, like any and all of us could have been very much alive and breathing in the physical sense, when God sent His son (spirit giving birth to spirit) -- the life-giving spirit to mankind as a means of rescue from this physical entrapment.

I'm happy to explain this concept in greater detail when time permits, but to paint a bit of a picture from a deeper understanding of the creation account there are two natures described in the telling. One is spiritual and that was where the beginning begins. Adam is spiritual and with God in Paradise (heaven) and it is from this place that 'he falls' (the spiritual man) to the physical realm as a consequence for actions.... the story is told in two parts.

Indulge me for a moment whilst I try to digest what you just said.....

Sorry, you are going to have to explain that one.....do you mean that Adam pre-existed his earthly life? This is Mormon-like thinking surely?

Are you suggesting that "Paradise" (the garden of Eden) was in heaven? What on earth would give you that idea?
Before the fall, Adam was assigned to name all the animals....were they all in heaven too? Eve was not created at that point....

There were trees and vegetation and creatures of all shapes and sizes....and food in abundance for all the "souls" that God placed here on planet Earth.

 

[Mr E]

Every breathing thing is designed to draw breath when it has been born from its "womb"....animals or humans....all creatures called "souls" breathe. That is what a "soul" is...a living, breathing creature. A soul is not a disembodied spirit. The soul is inextricably tied to the body....one cannot exist without the other. When a soul stops breathing...it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Does God breathe? What an odd question.

If God is a spirit, then he does not require oxygen to sustain his life, and therefore does not need to breathe.
He lives in a spiritual realm, and so does not possess a physical body.


Indulge me for a moment whilst I try to digest what you just said.....

Sorry, you are going to have to explain that one.....do you mean that Adam pre-existed his earthly life? This is Mormon-like thinking surely?

Are you suggesting that "Paradise" (the garden of Eden) was in heaven? What on earth would give you that idea?
Before the fall, Adam was assigned to name all the animals....were they all in heaven too? Eve was not created at that point....

There were trees and vegetation and creatures of all shapes and sizes....and food in abundance for all the "souls" that God placed here on planet Earth.

First, I've never said that the soul is "a disembodied spirit." I'll say again- it is what we might call our life.

So, not a simple word with a simple meaning. The "spirit" that God breathed into Adam was his literal breath, which put into operation the natural ability of all living souls to sustain their lives by breathing. When breathing stops, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) I understand that this is a foreign thought to most people but it is what the scriptures teach. The ancient Jews (as opposed to the modern day ones) had no belief in an afterlife.

Secondly, you are right in saying God is spirit, and not a physical being. Scripture stipulates this and since we agree on this we can agree that God didn't actually "breathe breath" into Adam in a literal sense though that's exactly what you suggest above. I'll invite you to revisit your ideas in this regard and consider the concept from a spiritual perspective apart from a physical need to breath. Of course we physically need to breath in order to live physically, but that's not what a soul is. It's not our breath.

According to Strongs Concordance, the "spirit" is "rûaḥ" and it means....
"wind, breath, mind, spirit

Yes, "rûaḥ" can mean all those things, but not all at once. When it means spirit- that's what is meant. When it means wind, it means wind. That doesn't mean that spirit and wind are the same thing. Neither is our "mind" our spirit, nor is our "breath" our spirit. Yet you equate one's soul with this "breath" God breathed into Adam even while agreeing that this "breath" is a spiritual concept. People breathe. Physical beings physically breath. Spiritual beings have no need of it.

When a soul stops breathing...it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Finally, please don't do this. Ezekiel18 says nothing of a soul dying when it stops breathing. That's you attempting to impose your idea upon scripture. The soul that sins dies. If you want to say, souls that die stop breathing I would certainly agree with that, but that isn't what Ezekiel is saying. Another way of saying the same thing would be: The life that ends stops breathing. In fact, you could use "life" in place of soul anywhere it is used in scripture and it might help demystify the concept in a helpful way.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Secondly, you are right in saying God is spirit, and not a physical being. Scripture stipulates this and since we agree on this we can agree that God didn't actually "breathe breath" into Adam in a literal sense though that's exactly what you suggest above. I'll invite you to revisit your ideas in this regard and consider the concept from a spiritual perspective apart from a physical need to breath. Of course we physically need to breath in order to live physically, but that's not what a soul is. It's not our breath.

The Genesis account of creation is given without scientific detail and presented on a “need to know” basis to a technologically uneducated people. We mere humans cannot even in our present state of scientific knowledge, begin to understand those scientific details anyway. Look how long it has taken the highly intelligent ones of the human race to identify the cause of diseases or even to map the human genome...? We are in our infancy when it comes to knowledge of creation.

So with its simple presentation we can now appreciate more why the details were withheld.....it would not have benefited any human, even in the present age because we could never comprehend it. No scientist can tell us what “life” is or where it came from....they do know that “all life springs from pre-existing life” because nature tells them this.....but it does not stop the godless from trying to make the Creator redundant, and turn science into the new “god” or “religion”.

So the outline of the creation account tells us that humankind were the last of God’s creative acts, and that he “rested” from creating anything more, even though he did not need to rest because he was tired. He rested because he had completed all that he intended to do, and now it was time to test the whole thing out.....why? Because up until the creation of the human race, (who were to represent their Creator here as caretakers of all that God had made) there was no need. Every other creature on earth was pre-programmed to be self-sufficient by instinct.....IOW, they would take care of themselves and do what God put them on earth to do without his intervention. But humans were not “programmed” to be self-sufficient because they alone were endowed with free will...."made in God’s image and likeness”. They were to be taught by their Creator and then pass on their knowledge and skills to the next generation, all the while taking their instructions from him. If only they had....

Free will was risky because it was intended to be a gift.....the ability to make decisions and weigh up the outcome of those decisions.....but if it was abused, it could have dire consequences. This is what I believe the 7th day was for. To allow free will to be exercised and to teach all of God’s intelligent creation how to use it wisely.....to benefit others, not just themselves.

There is no way that the creative “days” were 24 hour periods, and we can see that the Hebrew word for “day” has more than one meaning. It can mean an indefinite period of time, so I believe that the “days” were in fact eras of undetermined length carefully planned by God in stages that he called “days” (to aid human understanding).

I don’t believe that the 7th day has yet ended. If you read about the conclusion of each of the creative “days”, there is a declaration from God as to his satisfaction of the process thus far.....and with the close of the 6th day, everything was not just “good” but “very good”. However, there is no closing declaration for the 7th day....not because of any failure on God’s part to achieve his goals, but because it hasn’t reached its foretold conclusion yet. (Isaiah 55:11)

By the beginning of the 7th day, everything was in place for God’s purpose involving his material creation to go ahead......but without God’s intervention. He would step back now and allow what he had put in place to generate its own issues and he would respond to them whilst allowing free will to guide the thinking and actions of his human children, (as well is his angelic sons who were observing all that was taking place.)

The fall in Eden was a response to a once faithful angel entertaining wrong thoughts and ambitions.....contemplating a course that he believed would benefit himself at the expense of the humans he was going to exploit....abusing his free will, he tempted them to do the same. So the first rebel was not human, but used the humans as a means to a selfish end. In allowing this to transpire with very little intervention on his part, God was giving all of his children, both in heaven and on earth an opportunity to show him who they really are....and where their loyalties truly lay.

Sin was the result of misused free will, and the object lesson would allow all of God’s children to make their choices to serve their God or to serve themselves. We know where those choices took us because we have endured the consequences for millenniums now....but not for much longer, according to the guidebook that God left to us. The close of the 7th day will see God declare once again, that “everything is very good”. God’s purpose is right on track and all that he has foretold is taking place just as he said it would for these “last days” of satan’s world. (2 Timothy 3:1-5) We have the thousand year rule of God’s kingdom to get us all on track, and then everything will go back to the way it was meant to be in the first place......all that humanity has experienced as a result of bad choices will be on record forever so that this can never happen again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, "rûaḥ" can mean all those things, but not all at once. When it means spirit- that's what is meant. When it means wind, it means wind. That doesn't mean that spirit and wind are the same thing. Neither is our "mind" our spirit, nor is our "breath" our spirit. Yet you equate one's soul with this "breath" God breathed into Adam even while agreeing that this "breath" is a spiritual concept. People breathe. Physical beings physically breath. Spiritual beings have no need of it.

Again you seem to equate “soul” and “spirit” as meaning the same thing...but they are very different.
Breath is spirit (“the breath of life” given to Adam was what made him a “soul”) it is the animating force that makes the “soul” live....the "soul" is the whole physical being, both human and animal. There is no spiritual part of us that keeps living when the soul dies. That is a pagan Greek notion adopted later by both Judaism and Christendom. It is not taught in scripture.
Resurrection is taught in the Bible...and this is a return or restoration of life...not a continuation of it somewhere else.

Finally, please don't do this. Ezekiel18 says nothing of a soul dying when it stops breathing. That's you attempting to impose your idea upon scripture. The soul that sins dies. If you want to say, souls that die stop breathing I would certainly agree with that, but that isn't what Ezekiel is saying. Another way of saying the same thing would be: The life that ends stops breathing. In fact, you could use "life" in place of soul anywhere it is used in scripture and it might help demystify the concept in a helpful way.

I agree that the word “soul” can be interchanged with “life”....but the life a soul enjoys is dependent upon a body. Without a body, there is no soul. Souls are mortal and they die....their life does not continue. Death is the opposite of life. What did God tell Adam? (Genesis 3:19) He would cease to breathe and his death would mean a "return to the dust" from which he was created. No afterlife was ever mentioned.

To believe that you do not die is to subscribe to the oldest lie ever told....."you surely will not die”...which was told by the most deceitful liar in existence at the beginning of mankind’s history. He has the world convinced that what he said was true....

There is no need to demystify something that was never true in the first place.
God created the earth for “souls” to inhabit, but the caretakers had to follow their Creator’s instructions in caring for this lovingly prepared planet and all who would enjoy life here.
This is the test that we are all undergoing....if we love what God loves, then he knows our heart and he knows who will be obedient and caring citizens on this beautiful spaceship. He provided for our every need here.....and more.

It’s a vast universe and we are barely an insignificant speck. If this was God’s first excursion into creating material beings on a material planet, to experience everlasting material life, then the possession of free will had to be controlled and exercised in a beneficial way so that God’s will would always “be done on earth as it is in heaven”....isn’t this just what Jesus taught us to pray for......the coming of God’s Kingdom in the hands of his appointed King and those of the elect who will share in its administration....will bring us back to the paradise on earth that was taken away from us by the selfishness of three individuals.....only then can God’s will “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.

We don’t have to go to heaven to live an everlasting life....living eternally on earth was the prospect held out to Adam and his wife, but they misused their free will by succumbing to temptation and their own desires.....and this in turn robbed all their children of that prospect too....so God stepped in with a rescue mission, and Jesus 'redeemed' us out of that situation by giving his life for ours.

Christ is about to judge the world and “save” only those who have accepted one truth. They must all agree with God, with Christ, and each other.....these will be “saved” when that judgment is executed on those who rejected the truth in preference to their own ideas.

God chooses us on the basis of our response to his message, (John 6:65) which has been taken out to the whole world by his servants in this “time of the end” because they have obeyed their Master, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14) He promised to be “with them” in their endeavors. Even though they would be ‘hated and persecuted’ for no good reason, they obediently do as their Lord instructed. (John 15:18-21) Like the first century Christians, the bulk of that hatred comes from those who purport to worship the same God.

As I often say...history repeats because no one learns the lessons from the past....

 

[Mr E]

Again you seem to equate “soul” and “spirit” as meaning the same thing...but they are very different.

I seem to? Where? If I did, please quote where I did, otherwise take me at my word when I tell you I never would. They are not the same at all as I've explained. The spirit as the poem also suggests- is autonomous. Subject only to it's own set of principles which are spiritual in nature, not limited to a physical construct. To say they are the same would be like "you" are no different than what you did on your summer vacation. I'll explain... Your life is not you. You are not your life. This is more understandable if indeed you are able to equate "life" and "soul." Your soul is the record of your life. Consider it to be a line by line diary, or digital recording of your life. So if you went camping and slept in a tent last month, that experience is part of your life, but it isn't YOU, right? It's something, one of the things you did in life.

In the spiritual realm which I consider to be the greater reality, we are spirit. Not physical. This physical life is but an experience that our spirit is having. A life experience-- or soul experience if you will. In one manner of understanding of a 'fallen world' it's actually more like a life sentence. We can talk more about that later, but to plant a seed- Adam fell as a consequence of disobedience.

Breath is spirit (“the breath of life” given to Adam was what made him a “soul”) it is the animating force that makes the “soul” live....the "soul" is the whole physical being, both human and animal. There is no spiritual part of us that keeps living when the soul dies. That is a pagan Greek notion adopted later by both Judaism and Christendom. It is not taught in scripture.

At the risk of repeating myself, breath is indeed what made Adam alive in a physical sense, the spirit is what makes him alive in a spiritual sense. To suggest that scripture doesn't teach that the spirit outlasts the body is a little laughable. You must have different scriptures. The spirit is all that endures. Not the body, which decays and returns to dust (from which it came) while the spirit returns to God (from which it came) and books are opened.... those books are the records of your life (soul) that provide the content review wherein one's worth is determined, your life weighed in the balance.

I agree that the word “soul” can be interchanged with “life”....but the life a soul enjoys is dependent upon a body. Without a body, there is no soul. Souls are mortal and they die....their life does not continue. Death is the opposite of life. What did God tell Adam? (Genesis 3:19) He would cease to breathe and his death would mean a "return to the dust" from which he was created. No afterlife was ever mentioned.

No argument from me here-- the soul begins and ends with a body. Scripture describes our physical bodies as earthly tents. Temporary quarters for spiritual beings. This is a difficult concept for most people to grasp, but scripture is clear. Our body is equated to having come from the dust, being of the earth, clay jars or vessels that contain something. Even temples of the Holy Spirit that is within.

You think there is no afterlife? That Adam simply died and then was no more? That his body 'gave up the ghost' and decayed into dust? -except it seems like you may even reject the idea that there is any ghost (spirit) to give up. Did Jesus get it wrong when on the cross he promised that one thief-- "This day you will be with me in Paradise." ?

There is no need to demystify something that was never true in the first place.
God created the earth for “souls” to inhabit, but the caretakers had to follow their Creator’s instructions in caring for this lovingly prepared planet and all who would enjoy life here.
This is the test that we are all undergoing....if we love what God loves, then he knows our heart and he knows who will be obedient and caring citizens on this beautiful spaceship. He provided for our every need here.....and more.

That's one way of looking at it. -That Earth is the paradise that God created as His garden of delight wherein Adam was placed and given this "test" that all must undergo... this beautiful spaceship. That's a lovely and easy thought to enjoy as I sit enjoying a cup of morning coffee poolside on my back patio in San Diego, but a tough pill for those folks just trying to survive the day in Haiti. For them Paradise is not at hand.

It’s a vast universe and we are barely an insignificant speck. If this was God’s first excursion into creating material beings on a material planet, to experience everlasting material life, then the possession of free will had to be controlled and exercised in a beneficial way so that God’s will would always “be done on earth as it is in heaven”....isn’t this just what Jesus taught us to pray for......the coming of God’s Kingdom in the hands of his appointed King and those of the elect who will share in its administration....will bring us back to the paradise on earth that was taken away from us by the selfishness of three individuals.....only then can God’s will “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.

This trips off into the realm of the unknown. Speculation at best, presented as fact? I don't believe we are any sort of "insignificant speck" at all and we have no evidence at all to suggest that God has/had other 'excursions' on other planets, as if this beautiful Earth spaceship is the starship Enterprise. This is fantasy and no, not what Jesus taught us to pray for. He taught that the Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Heaven and those are not of this world. They are not of this world, but a spiritual realm-- the greater spiritual reality of that spirit that is within us.

No need to agree or disagree. I've enjoyed the discussion with you Aunty Jane.