Earth, Created to stand forever

[Harvest 1874]

Jesus' own words say He will give His people eternal life.

John 10:27-28 (ASV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.


I didn't say those who died before Jesus was born or never heard the true gospel are going to be resurrected to eternal life....you assumed that. But nevertheless, they too will be given eternal life just as the saints before them did.

Nor did I ever say that he would not give his own people eternal life, his own people being in reference to mankind, NOT to his brethren, they receive their life from the Father himself.

Mankind will receive life from Christ, and if they should be proven faithful during the “little season” at the end of the next age that life will be made everlasting, eternal.

Now your final thought is a bit confusing, viz.

“I didn't say those who died before Jesus was born or never heard the true gospel are going to be resurrected to eternal life....you assumed that.

But nevertheless, they too will be given eternal life just as the saints before them did.”

You seem to say in one sentence, that those who died prior to Christ, who never heard the gospel message will not receive a resurrection and never have the opportunity for eternal life, and then in the next sentence say they will, and not only this but that they will receive the same reward as that which the saints received.

The world is not going to receive the same reward as that of the saints, the saints are promised a heavenly inheritance, and spiritual existence, and that on the highest plane of existence known, the divine plane. Mankind on the other hand was never promised any heavenly inheritance, nor any change of natures, but rather the promise to them was “the restitution of all things”, the return of that which was originally theirs, but forfeited by father Adam’s sin. That which was lost is to be restored once again, and that was an earthly inheritance, human perfection, and dominion over the world.

 

[verzanumi24]

Nor did I ever say that he would not give his own people eternal life, his own people being in reference to mankind, NOT to his brethren, they receive their life from the Father himself.

Mankind will receive life from Christ, and if they should be proven faithful during the “little season” at the end of the next age that life will be made everlasting, eternal.

Now your final thought is a bit confusing, viz.

“I didn't say those who died before Jesus was born or never heard the true gospel are going to be resurrected to eternal life....you assumed that.

But nevertheless, they too will be given eternal life just as the saints before them did.”

You seem to say in one sentence, that those who died prior to Christ, who never heard the gospel message will not receive a resurrection and never have the opportunity for eternal life, and then in the next sentence say they will, and not only this but that they will receive the same reward as that which the saints received.

The world is not going to receive the same reward as that of the saints, the saints are promised a heavenly inheritance, and spiritual existence, and that on the highest plane of existence known, the divine plane. Mankind on the other hand was never promised any heavenly inheritance, nor any change of natures, but rather the promise to them was “the restitution of all things”, the return of that which was originally theirs, but forfeited by father Adam’s sin. That which was lost is to be restored once again, and that was an earthly inheritance, human perfection, and dominion over the world.

I'm trying to show you that Eternal life that Jesus will give His people is the same things as inherent life....the saints will poses it too. Jesus received inherent life from His Father, and Jesus in turn will give it to the saints.

 

[Stranger]

Do you know that eternal life is better than immortal life? Eternal life is what human beings are being given. Eternal life is uncreated life....it's the very life that God has.....unlimited, which means one can create life, but angels only have immortal life.

Whooaa pardner. I disagree. Only God creates and gives life. Though we have been given eternal life, that in no way means we can create life.

Stranger

 

[verzanumi24]

Whooaa pardner. I disagree. Only God creates and gives life. Though we have been given eternal life, that in no way means we can create life.

Stranger

Before I respond to that statment, I will ask you this: what do you think the saints will be doing when they are glorified and where will they be?

 

[Harvest 1874]

I'm trying to show you that Eternal life that Jesus will give His people is the same things as inherant life....the saints will poses it too.

As we have attempted to explain over and over again the reward given to the faithful over-comers, the saints, “the body of him” is immortality, life inherent, this in essence is eternal life, but this (type) of eternal life is one which is only given to the sanctified in Christ Jesus, likewise the new nature which they receive comes not from Christ himself, (although he is the means or way by which it is obtained), but from the Father, it is the Father who begets us to the new nature, not Christ. As our Lord said on one occasion, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father'.

Christ will however be the “Everlasting Father” to the world and will bestow life upon all of mankind, and if they pass their final judgment (krima) that life will be made everlasting, eternal. However the life they have (having been perfected by that time) doesn’t change in any way it’s still the same life, a mortal life, but having passed their final test it is now everlasting, eternal.

Since our Lord purchased the world of mankind at the cost of his own life, and since it is by virtue of that purchase that he became its Lord, its Restorer, its Life-giver, and since the very central thought of the word father is life-giver, our Lord could take no more appropriate name or title than "Everlasting Father" to represent his relationship to the world about to be regenerated--born again from the dead by restitution, resurrection processes. The world's life will come directly from the Lord Jesus, who by divine arrangement bought it and paid Justice the full price for it. Nevertheless, the restored world will, after the restitution process is finished, recognize Jehovah as the great original fountain of life and blessing, the author of the great plan of salvation executed by our Lord Jesus-- the Grand Father and Over-Lord of All. 1 Cor. 15:24-28; 3:23; Matt. 19:28

 

[verzanumi24]

As we have attempted to explain over and over again the reward given to the faithful over-comers, the saints, “the body of him” is immortality, life inherent, this in essence is eternal life, but this (type) of eternal life is one which is only given to the sanctified in Christ Jesus, likewise the new nature which they receive comes not from Christ himself, (although he is the means or way by which it is obtained), but from the Father, it is the Father who begets us to the new nature, not Christ. As our Lord said on one occasion, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father'.

Christ will however be the “Everlasting Father” to the world and will bestow life upon all of mankind, and if they pass their final judgment (krima) that life will be made everlasting, eternal. However the life they have (having been perfected by that time) doesn’t change in any way it’s still the same life, a mortal life, but having passed their final test it is now everlasting, eternal.

Since our Lord purchased the world of mankind at the cost of his own life, and since it is by virtue of that purchase that he became its Lord, its Restorer, its Life-giver, and since the very central thought of the word father is life-giver, our Lord could take no more appropriate name or title than "Everlasting Father" to represent his relationship to the world about to be regenerated--born again from the dead by restitution, resurrection processes. The world's life will come directly from the Lord Jesus, who by divine arrangement bought it and paid Justice the full price for it. Nevertheless, the restored world will, after the restitution process is finished, recognize Jehovah as the great original fountain of life and blessing, the author of the great plan of salvation executed by our Lord Jesus-- the Grand Father and Over-Lord of All. 1 Cor. 15:24-28; 3:23; Matt. 19:28

I didn't get into who begets whom. My point was that Jesus said He gives eternal life to the saints.

 

[Stranger]

Before I respond to that statment, I will ask you this: what do you think the saints will be doing when they are glorified and where will they be?

(1 Cor. 2:9) "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Stranger

 

[verzanumi24]

(1 Cor. 2:9) "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Stranger

You left verse 10 out, which is very important.

1 Corinthians 2:10 (ASV)
10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

So I'm assuming that you don't know what the saints will be doing after they have been glorified.

 

[Stranger]

You left verse 10 out, which is very important.

1 Corinthians 2:10 (ASV)
10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

So I'm assuming that you don't know what the saints will be doing after they have been glorified.

Why would you assume that? Because I didn't quote vs. 10? If you believe (9-12) then you should believe I know.

What (1 Cor. 9-12) doesn't mean, is that everyone who comes 'saying' God has shown me this, 'means' that God has shown them that. And if you come claiming something God has shown you by His Spirit, something that man cannot naturally know, then it will be in harmony with the rest of God's revelation.

And man being equal with God as Creator is not in harmony with anything I know of God. Perhaps you are advanced in the Christian faith to the degree that you can show me differently.

Stranger

 

[verzanumi24]

Why would you assume that? Because I didn't quote vs. 10? If you believe (9-12) then you should believe I know.

What (1 Cor. 9-12) doesn't mean, is that everyone who comes 'saying' God has shown me this, 'means' that God has shown them that. And if you come claiming something God has shown you by His Spirit, something that man cannot naturally know, then it will be in harmony with the rest of God's revelation.

And man being equal with God as Creator is not in harmony with anything I know of God. Perhaps you are advanced in the Christian faith to the degree that you can show me differently.

Stranger

I asked you if you know what the saints will be doing when they are glorified and where will they be? And your response was 1 Cor. 2:9, so it's a fair for me to believe you didn't know.


Let me respond to your statement with this scripture.


Psalm 8:3-6 (KJV)
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Angels:

Hebrew Word: ‏אֱלֹהִים‎ - ʾelōhîm - God


The translation from the Hebrew word elōhîm to the English word angels is not the correct translation. Elōhîm in Psalm 8:5 is the same word that is translated God when it's referring to God. For some reason, the translator can't accept the word for what it is, so they substituted the world angels instead. But not only that, it should be translated as, A little lower than God for a while, or For a little while lower then God. It's also interesting that God Himself used the word God in referring to human beings....Jesus even quoted it as well, when the Jews wanted to stone Him because He said He was the Son of God, making Himself equal to God.

God see things as what they will be and not what they appear.

Romans 4:17 (KJV)
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.



Psalm 82:6 (KJV)
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


Hebrew Word: ‏אֱלֹהִים‎ - elōhîm = god


John 10:30-36 (ASV)
30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Greek Word: θεός - theos = gods


Man(male and female) are not yet at God's level, but we will be. It will defiantly be very very hard for many to accept what these scriptures are saying, because they have been conditioned to believe the opposite. But nevertheless, it is written in the Bible. We either accept it or reject it by trying to explain it a way where one can swallow it. To accept is, they will see it as blaspheming and pride. But the fact is, not everybody can handle the truth undiluted.

 

[Stranger]

I asked you if you know what the saints will be doing when they are glorified and where will they be? And your response was 1 Cor. 2:9, so it's a fair for me to believe you didn't know.


Let me respond to your statement with this scripture.


Psalm 8:3-6 (KJV)
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Angels:

Hebrew Word: ‏אֱלֹהִים‎ - ʾelōhîm - God


The translation from the Hebrew word elōhîm to the English word angels is not the correct translation. Elōhîm in Psalm 8:5 is the same word that is translated God when it's referring to God. For some reason, the translator can't accept the word for what it is, so they substituted the world angels instead. But not only that, it should be translated as, A little lower than God for a while, or For a little while lower then God. It's also interesting that God Himself used the word God in referring to human beings....Jesus even quoted it as well, when the Jews wanted to stone Him because He said He was the Son of God, making Himself equal to God.

God see things as what they will be and not what they appear.

Romans 4:17 (KJV)
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.



Psalm 82:6 (KJV)
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


Hebrew Word: ‏אֱלֹהִים‎ - elōhîm = god


John 10:30-36 (ASV)
30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Greek Word: θεός - theos = gods


Man(male and female) are not yet at God's level, but we will be. It will defiantly be very very hard for many to accept what these scriptures are saying, because they have been conditioned to believe the opposite. But nevertheless, it is written in the Bible. We either accept it or reject it by trying to explain it a way where one can swallow it. To accept is, they will see it as blaspheming and pride. But the fact is, not everybody can handle the truth undiluted.

Note 'god's' is with a little 'g'. Rightly so. It is not saying you are as God with all the attributes of God. (Psalm 82:6) is showing that the believers are standing in the place of God as God has given them the authority to do. Only as He has given them the authority to do.

(Ex. 7:1) says, "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron they brother shall be thy prophet."

Compare this with (Ex. 4:16). "And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God."

So, just as (Ps. 82:6-7) says, "I have said, ye are gods;...but ye shall die like men...." Those men whom God places with authority are still just men and shall die as men.

I see nothing here where man is given the power to create life.

Stranger

 

[verzanumi24]

Note 'god's' is with a little 'g'. Rightly so. It is not saying you are as God with all the attributes of God. (Psalm 82:6) is showing that the believers are standing in the place of God as God has given them the authority to do. Only as He has given them the authority to do.

(Ex. 7:1) says, "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron they brother shall be thy prophet."

Compare this with (Ex. 4:16). "And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God."

So, just as (Ps. 82:6-7) says, "I have said, ye are gods;...but ye shall die like men...." Those men whom God places with authority are still just men and shall die as men.

I see nothing here where man is given the power to create life.

Stranger

Only when it's translated from Hebrew into English or some other language. But it's not written that way in the Greek or Hebrew. So it's not simply standing in the place of God.....it's deeper than that. What do you think it means when God said, "Let us make man in our image?" To be in the image of God is be like God.

To have the power to create life one have to have eternal life, which is what the saints will have. Angels are immortal, so they will never die. But they don't have eternal life. If God just wanted the saints to only be able to live without being subjected to death, He would only offer immortal life to them.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Only when it's translated from Hebrew into English or some other language. But it's not written that way in the Greek or Hebrew. So it's not simply standing in the place of God.....it's deeper than that. What do you think it means when God said, "Let us make man in our image?" To be in the image of God is be like God.

To have the power to create life one have to have eternal life, which is what the saints will have. Angels are immortal, so they will never die. But they don't have eternal life. If God just wanted the saints to only be able to live without being subjected to death, He would only offer immortal life to them.

"In His image" does not mean to be like God in the sense of possessing his physical qualities, his nature, a divine immortal being. Even our Lord (in his pre-human existence) “who, existing in the form of God (a spirit being), didn't consider equality with God (to be like God) a thing to be grasped.” Now it's true Satan had those aspirations and what did this get him?

What it means to be made in his image is that man was made with the same quality of reasoning power and moral intelligence as his creator. God made man a free moral agent, and fashioned him appropriately to earthly conditions and nature. God endowed him with the sense of justice, reason, love and righteousness, and thus he was an image of the great Jehovah in these qualities of character. "After Our likeness," we understand to mean that as God made man to be in the likeness of God, He made man to be the king of the earth and gave him dominion over all the things of the earth.

The divine or immortal nature is the highest form of nature, in the beginning there was only one immortal being and that was the Father, “Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.” 1 Tim 6:16

Since our Lord’s high exaltation there are now two immortal beings, only two.

What was our Lord prior to becoming an immortal being, that’s right he was a mortal being? All spirit beings are mortal, just as man is mortal.

If they weren’t than God would not be able to destroy Satan, nor any of the other fallen angels, they would all be death proof. Nor could our Lord have ever paid the price for man’s redemption, for he too was an angel (a so-called immortal being) He could never have been the ransom sacrifice because the law required a life for a life, and as an immortal being he could not die.

Angels are not immortal beings and never were.

As for your continued assertion that eternal life is greater than immortality, well…

Think about it for a moment why is the church admonished to “seek for glory, honor and immortality”, if as you say eternal life is a much higher honor, shouldn’t they be seeking for glory, honor and eternal life instead? Seems a bit odd don’t you think?

 

[Stranger]

Only when it's translated from Hebrew into English or some other language. But it's not written that way in the Greek or Hebrew. So it's not simply standing in the place of God.....it's deeper than that. What do you think it means when God said, "Let us make man in our image?" To be in the image of God is be like God.

To have the power to create life one have to have eternal life, which is what the saints will have. Angels are immortal, so they will never die. But they don't have eternal life. If God just wanted the saints to only be able to live without being subjected to death, He would only offer immortal life to them.

Having eternal life does not give one the power to create life. Mankind being created in the image of God means just that, we are in God's image in every way. Doesn't mean we are God. Doesn't mean we can create life. Being born-again, we are sons of God and have His nature in us. We will forever be 'redeemed' man, in Christ. We will have many things to do, but creating life as God does is not one of them.

Concerning 'god's', no it is not deeper than that. I showed you in (Ex. 4:16), and (Ex. 7:1).

When God says He will make man in His likeness, it is good. When satan says I will be like the Most High, it is evil.

Stranger

 

[verzanumi24]

Having eternal life does not give one the power to create life. Mankind being created in the image of God means just that, we are in God's image in every way. Doesn't mean we are God. Doesn't mean we can create life. Being born-again, we are sons of God and have His nature in us. We will forever be 'redeemed' man, in Christ. We will have many things to do, but creating life as God does is not one of them.

Concerning 'god's', no it is not deeper than that. I showed you in (Ex. 4:16), and (Ex. 7:1).

When God says He will make man in His likeness, it is good. When satan says I will be like the Most High, it is evil.

Stranger

What is the reason for Jesus giving His people eternal life instead of immortal life?

 

[verzanumi24]

"In His image" does not mean to be like God in the sense of possessing his physical qualities, his nature, a divine immortal being. Even our Lord (in his pre-human existence) “who, existing in the form of God (a spirit being), didn't consider equality with God (to be like God) a thing to be grasped.” Now it's true Satan had those aspirations and what did this get him?

What it means to be made in his image is that man was made with the same quality of reasoning power and moral intelligence as his creator. God made man a free moral agent, and fashioned him appropriately to earthly conditions and nature. God endowed him with the sense of justice, reason, love and righteousness, and thus he was an image of the great Jehovah in these qualities of character. "After Our likeness," we understand to mean that as God made man to be in the likeness of God, He made man to be the king of the earth and gave him dominion over all the things of the earth.

The divine or immortal nature is the highest form of nature, in the beginning there was only one immortal being and that was the Father, “Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.” 1 Tim 6:16

Since our Lord’s high exaltation there are now two immortal beings, only two.

What was our Lord prior to becoming an immortal being, that’s right he was a mortal being? All spirit beings are mortal, just as man is mortal.

If they weren’t than God would not be able to destroy Satan, nor any of the other fallen angels, they would all be death proof. Nor could our Lord have ever paid the price for man’s redemption, for he too was an angel (a so-called immortal being) He could never have been the ransom sacrifice because the law required a life for a life, and as an immortal being he could not die.

Angels are not immortal beings and never were.

As for your continued assertion that eternal life is greater than immortality, well…

Think about it for a moment why is the church admonished to “seek for glory, honor and immortality”, if as you say eternal life is a much higher honor, shouldn’t they be seeking for glory, honor and eternal life instead? Seems a bit odd don’t you think?

I don't put limiatations on God's word.....that is man's indictrination. Are you aware that just like God, people will come and worship before the feet of the saints?

 

[Stranger]

What is the reason for Jesus giving His people eternal life instead of immortal life?

That they may have eternal life.

I don't put limiatations on God's word.....that is man's indictrination. Are you aware that just like God, people will come and worship before the feet of the saints?

Ah...you just took the next step. To be worshipped. satan wanted to be 'like' God. satan wanted to be worshipped like God. To attribute to the believer the ability to create life is the step just before being worshipped.

You have crossed the line.

Stranger

 

[verzanumi24]

That they may have eternal life.



Ah...you just took the next step. To be worshipped. satan wanted to be 'like' God. satan wanted to be worshipped like God. To attribute to the believer the ability to create life is the step just before being worshipped.

You have crossed the line.

Stranger

That's not an answer to my my question. Why give the saints eternal life and not immortal life?

 

[verzanumi24]

That they may have eternal life.



Ah...you just took the next step. To be worshipped. satan wanted to be 'like' God. satan wanted to be worshipped like God. To attribute to the believer the ability to create life is the step just before being worshipped.

You have crossed the line.

Stranger

This is speaking about God

Revelation 15:4 (ASV)
4 Who shall not fear, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for all the nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy righteous acts have been made manifest.

This is talking about the sainst

Revelation 3:9 (KJV)
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[Stranger]

That's not an answer to my my question. Why give the saints eternal life and not immortal life?

The saints get both eternal and immortality. (1 Cor. 15:53-54)

Stranger